S2K -vs- Mazdaspeed MX5 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Rob1035
06-28-2005, 18:59
I'm thinking about getting into a droptop in a little while, and these two have ended up at the top of my list. Both are newish, can be had for ~ 20k (1st gen S2k, not the new one). I used to have an Integra Type R, which sold me on Honda motors, gearboxes, and reliability, but the Masdaspeed is newer, lighter, with more easily available hp. This wont be my daily, but I want something reliable enough to act as thus.

Both are 6 speeds with great gearboxes, low weight, balanced rwd with lsd, nifty interiors, get decent mileage.

VTEC+9K rpms is intoxicating, but then again, so is b00st...

Any thoughts on the two?

Ron3
06-28-2005, 19:58
I've heard from a few folks (and newspaper articles) that the Honda S2000 is not a good "road" car. As in not comfortable even compared to other cars in it's class.

Even Sport Compact Car said something like, "Honda says the 2004 S2K is far more road friendly than the previous model, don't you believe it!". It handled fine, but they wouldn't want to drive one any distance or every day.

Just some thoughts, I've never been in either of these cars.

Ron3

new2mud
06-29-2005, 11:25
Let's face it. You are going to want more power eventually, and the path to more power always gives the nod to forced induction. The Mazda block is so overbuilt, it's unreal--will handle lots more power easily.

Honda motors are amazing engineering marvels, but are high-strung and don't take to massive overpower without fortifying internals.

Just take a look at www.flyinmiata.com for 1.6L engines that came from the factory with 113bhp that are now making 250+ with NO internal mods whatsoever, and with stock reliability.

Rob1035
06-29-2005, 12:13
yeah i'm well aware of the miata's power potential. The shop I frequent has a project miata thats making just under 300whp (mustang dyno) and puking trannies. That's one of the appeals of the MSM is the tuning. Its obviously not stressed stock, both in engine output and suspension tuning. With that car, there'd be more cause to tinker, which may or may not be a good thing. With the S2k, the suspension is fine as is, and the expense of getting more HP is prohibitive, and i'd probably leave it stock or close to it, again, a positive/negative depending on your take.

I know the best way to decide will be back to back drives, but its still fun to discuss.

45acp4me
06-30-2005, 11:29
Miata for sure.

Though is has less HP, it's lighter has better overall potential and the cost is a few thousand less.

Rob1035
06-30-2005, 13:26
plus i can put some 15"s on it and drop almost 8lbs a corner (with SSR comps) and have a cheaper tire selection to boot

new2mud
06-30-2005, 17:42
Miatas ripping through trannies is rather unusual, although your experience at the local shop obviously is not reassuring.

Too bad I am no longer in the Triangle--I have dyno'd at 269 RWHP on a Dynojet, 1.6L, stock internals, stock tranny, and over 70k miles on forced induction to date. Bullet-proof reliability. Many, many others are pushing power similar to mine (and more) without tranny issues.

That said, I have driven an S2000 on a track, and believe it to be approximately 8/10ths the car that mine is now, but with the benefit of being ready to rock out of the box. It's an impressive car.

Rob1035
06-30-2005, 18:19
yeah i dont know why they're having problems either, Bob@P1 must be hard on trannies...

22/45
06-30-2005, 19:20
Rob, get the Me-otter. From what I've heard, you really need to whale on a Stook to get it moving good, much more so than on a Hype R. Besides, even a stock, non-snailed MX5 will leave you with a poop-eating grin, can you imagine it with positive pressure?

new2mud
07-01-2005, 10:01
not to hijack rob's post, but 22/45, what you got there? looks intriguing.

22/45
07-01-2005, 15:53
Originally posted by new2mud
not to hijack rob's post, but 22/45, what you got there? looks intriguing.

You mean what's the boost gauge from my avatar in? Nothing that exciting - '99 Volvo S70 T5. Took me a few months to find one with a manual transmission. Put down 220whp with a K&N drop-in, need to go again now that I have a good exhaust.

One of these days I'll get a flashed ECU. They claim about 280hp and 300tq at the crank, but they run about $1,000 ;g

Money better spent dropping a 302 in one of my older Volvos ;f

new2mud
07-01-2005, 16:33
Originally posted by 22/45
You mean what's the boost gauge from my avatar in? Nothing that exciting - '99 Volvo S70 T5. Took me a few months to find one with a manual transmission. Put down 220whp with a K&N drop-in, need to go again now that I have a good exhaust.

One of these days I'll get a flashed ECU. They claim about 280hp and 300tq at the crank, but they run about $1,000 ;g

Money better spent dropping a 302 in one of my older Volvos ;f

sweeeeet. i have always loved turbo volvos.

22/45
07-01-2005, 17:39
It's a fun car, but a 242 with the same HP would be a whole lot more fun ;f

knives
07-06-2005, 00:27
are you a male nurse? if not why look for a mazda? I have driven my friends s2k and loved them. I'm a bit partial though...my car is a civic hatch with a h2.2. If your looking for high boost you'll have to sleeve both blocks to make respectable power. Call golden eagle for a sleeve job or if you want you can run with stock internals and get the Comptech supercharger.

new2mud
07-06-2005, 11:41
;Q

Rob1035
07-07-2005, 14:00
miata=fag comments are so 1995, get with the program.

Its going to be a daily driver probably, so there wont be any big mods for either.

epsylum
07-07-2005, 20:22
the miata has a parts everywhere and can from what I hear can be made to handle like a shifter cart.


I am way too damn big for either :(

@6'3" I would have to get in either by having the top down and climbing in from the top LMP style.

Rob1035
07-08-2005, 17:34
A little welding and an "01" on the doors...

new2mud
07-11-2005, 11:58
Rob,

If you REALLY, really mean that there will be no mods, then I would probably tip my hat to the S2K. But do you really mean that?
;f

Rob1035
07-12-2005, 19:55
lol yeah, that's a good point. It'd probably be only a rollbar, exhaust for noise, and brake pads, for either one.

new2mud
07-13-2005, 09:19
Here's my subjective take on it, assuming stock power levels:

For shear balls-out performance, the S2K is your car. (Best experienced at the track--will you be tracking your car?) You really have to beat on the car to wring out the power, though.

For a higher fun-quotient at daily driving levels, I find the Miata to be more visceral. The S2K at these levels is almost boring, devoid of character (such thing as too much perfection?)

Despite the 'high-revvers' among us, do we REALLY cruise around town 90% of the time with the tach wound up at 6k rpm just to be in the powerband?

Rob1035
07-13-2005, 14:46
That's a good comparison. I think I'm just going to have to drive both back to back to find out.

I have two options for the vehicle, I can either use the 'vert as a daily, and track my E30, or use my E30 as a daily and use the drop as a fun weekend/track car. I'm really leaning towards tracking the coupe and getting a fun daily, as I'm of the school of thought that believes a cheap track car is a good thing, plus tracking a 'vert has its own issues.

I dunno, like I said, I need to drive both.

new2mud
07-14-2005, 11:10
Rob,

You have great options with all 3 vehicles for daily/track usage combos. Not much more involved with tracking the roadsters: most tracks only require a functional roll bar. I think the S2K factory roll hoops qualify--when I've met them on the track they haven't had additional roll bars. I've tracked a Miata with a Hard Dog roll bar and no other mods necessary. Obviously, tracks vary in their own rules.

Is your E30 stock? That's a sweet 4-banger.

Rob1035
07-14-2005, 14:57
The E30 is close to stock, just suspension, shifter, and a chip. Its slow as hell (318is, not an M3 unfortunately), but its pretty fun, especially beating $40k sports cars around the cones. Its lively enough that i'm tempted to assign that for "fun" duties and just find a conservative daily, but that might make too much sense...

I know BMWCCA is bad about 'verts on track, the PCA seems a little more friendly based on the plethora of boxsters on track at the events I've worked. I think NASA is good too, but i'm not 100% on that, and I'm sure there's others i'm forgetting about.

new2mud
07-18-2005, 09:16
Well, you've always got MCA (or local clubs) for the Miata, and VIR has open track days that are just fine for roadsters. Despite what some tracks say on their website about convertibles needing arm tethers, most waive that for rented track days. Up in Michigan I used to join the NSX club track days since they were pretty laid back and more similar in performance.

JMag
07-22-2005, 21:29
Nah, try one of these babies...http://home.comcast.net/~ojhenderson/MyBimmer.jpg

Rob1035
07-22-2005, 21:55
bleh, i'm over the semi-trailing arms rear end. Plus I swore to myself to never own an OBD2+ bimmer...


Hot color combo for sure though...

22/45
07-22-2005, 22:44
Originally posted by Rob1035
bleh, i'm over the semi-trailing arms rear end. Plus I swore to myself to never own an OBD2+ bimmer...

Especially now that NC has dropped emissions testing for pre-OBD2 vehicles.

'95 Me-otter (they had the 1.8 by then, right?) plus big honkin' snail = good times.

JesS2K
07-24-2005, 10:24
I owne the S, so I feel that I should voice my opinion on this and hope you're still shopping for a car. I don't track my car, and I don't think the two are even in the same class. It's a long way down( please skip me if you're not interested), but I'll try to give you the most insightful info as much as I could. Please keep in mind, I do not have intention of bashing other cars the I mention below, they are all great cars, people spent countless hours and afford to creat them. I just like to share my opinion of why did I choose to go with my choice.

First of, Honda design this car for its 50th anniversary. In 1995 they went to the their 6 times Formular 1 Championship Racing engineer for research and design. 5 years later, in 1999 Honda came up with an un-compromise, race inspired from in side out, Honda S2000.

You'll hear a lot of people talking about low end torque( 10% more torque on '04 and up) of the S, I'll tell you that they probably never rod in one. Performance wise, the S has always been compared to cars cost ~$5 grands( 350Z), ~$15 grands( Z4), to ~$25( Boxter S, SLK) more, despite the fact that it is 2 cylinders shy and quite a few ponies less than its compatitors. Imagine a car that still a yard stick after 5 years of production age! When did you see that with Miata?

The S is a motorcycle on 4 wheels, hi rev, hi strung, corner taking machine. The first gen has highest output per litter( 120HP/Litter) for normally aspirated engine in the world. Most American are so accustom to muscle car low-end grunt, but from your choice of car, oviously you are looking for fun around the corners, not a traffic light-Dragger. Below 6k rpm, you got a nice, quick rev, fuel efficiency engine for everyday drive(23-28 MPG). Enter 6k to 9.2k( 8.2 on '04 and up) rpm and it turns in to a totally different beast. If 0-60 is your thing, hi 4s if you are really good, hi 5s to low 6s if you are not so quick. Find all these in MX-5?

Another proud privilege that the S has over MX-5( and many other production sport cars that cost many grands more) is the S is largly hand assembly. they used to make the S in the same factory as they biult NSX, one guy put the engine together form begining to drop-in, others weld body pennels, assembly the interior parts, ..etc. It has one of the stiffest chassis topless car in the world, even more so than the Boxter. Again, they don't built Miata that way, and they never will.

Last but not least, It has and does all that while remaining as a LEV( Low Emission Vehicle) certfied, If you care!

Like I mentioned earlier, I never meant to put down other cars, plus, if there wasn't for first gen Miata, there would be no S, Z3-4, Boxter, ..etc. Also, there's no such a thing as one size fits all solution for anything and for anyone. What is my choice and what importance to me might not be yours. Now it is time to share some down side of the S.

No comfort creatures like many offer, auto climate control, heated seat, high power sound system, traction control( same principle as index finger is our gock best safety, your right foot is the best traction control), side air bag, nav, ...etc. The clutch and diff is some what too weak to be launched and dropped regularly( beefier diff in '04 and up). No glasss rear window( glass rare window on '02 and up).

For me, a few grands over MX-5 and MR-2, and ten thousands of dollars less than others, I'm a pround owner of my (2nd)S2000. Good luck with whatever you choose, drive safe.

orionz06
07-24-2005, 16:27
a friend of mine, who has two, 2001 and a 2002 or something like that...anyway, he sutocrosses, and the only car to beat him was a miata turbo....thus, he sold one of them, bought a new bike, and a jetta, is now miata shopping....oh yeah, i drove a miata, and it was def a friendlier ride, and it still felt better at high speeds and tight turns...clutch felt nicer too

Glock Dave
07-28-2005, 20:34
I have a 2001 S2000. I absolutely love it. If you ask me there isn't even a comparison between a Miata and S2000. The Honda was named one of the 10 best cars by Car and Driver or Road and Track (can't remember which one) for a couple years. Performance and handling are much better than a Miata. Never mind Honda reliability.

orionz06
07-28-2005, 21:08
Originally posted by Glock Dave
I have a 2001 S2000. I absolutely love it. If you ask me there isn't even a comparison between a Miata and S2000. The Honda was named one of the 10 best cars by Car and Driver or Road and Track (can't remember which one) for a couple years. Performance and handling are much better than a Miata. Never mind Honda reliability.


in no way do i mean to take away from the s2k...but the miata turbo does beat it...

Glock Dave
07-29-2005, 12:47
Originally posted by orionz06
in no way do i mean to take away from the s2k...but the miata turbo does beat it...

I don't think so, at least for 2005

Straight from Autoweek magazine.

2005 MazdaSpeed Miata
Born Again: MazdaSpeed Injects the aging Miata with a dose of Turbocharged Botox

That boost in output shows up quickly at the track, where our 2529-pound test car consistently turned sub-seven-second 0-to-60-mph times, with a best 6.58-second run. Through the quarter-mile the Miata clocked in at 89.6 mph in 15.14 seconds.

S2000
Road and Track Magazine:
2.2 L, I-4, 6 speed Manual
0-60 5.40 sec.
1/4 Mile 13.90 sec.
1st Gear 85.00 dBA
60-0 Braking 115.00 ft.
70 mph Cruising 77.00 dBA
80-0 Braking 206.00 ft.
Idle 9.00 dBA
IssueMar-05
Skidpad 0.91 g.
Slalom 69.70 mph

new2mud
07-29-2005, 13:45
Originally posted by orionz06
in no way do i mean to take away from the s2k...but the miata turbo does beat it...

Well, not really. The stock MazdaSpeed numbers don't match the S2K, but slightly modded--watch out!

Also, many aftermarket Miata turbos will blow away the stock S2K, and even surpass the CompTech supercharged S2K in acceleration.

orionz06
07-29-2005, 16:04
perhaps it was modded, but either way, i beat the balls off of both, and the speed was faster....hands down...even driver swapping, the mazda was better..ill look into it to see if it is modded....

45acp4me
07-29-2005, 21:01
Brand new Miata loaded = $25,000

Brand new S2000 = 35,000+

For $10,000 more it better be a more capable car.

However, I could do a ton with $10,000 when it comes to a Miata. :)

orionz06
07-29-2005, 21:32
s2k looks kooler....hands down...miata looks feminine

Glock Dave
07-30-2005, 13:00
Originally posted by 45acp4me
Brand new Miata loaded = $25,000

Brand new S2000 = 35,000+

For $10,000 more it better be a more capable car.

However, I could do a ton with $10,000 when it comes to a Miata. :)

Sticker price for a new S2000 is $33,150. Which means actual purchase price is less. The dealer told me that in the winter here in the northeast you can get one for under $30,000. I paid $24,000 for a 2 year old S2000 with 8,000 miles. Everyone thinks its brand new. I couldn't be happier with it.

JesS2K
08-04-2005, 16:23
Compare Apple to Apple, please, MOD car to MOD car, stock to stock. This kind of comparision makes me thinking of "1911 VS Glock", ...apple to orange.

Mazda speed MX5 couldn't even beat a stock S, Slap the same thing on the S and you think what the engine that has almost 100HP more to begin with will do?. Yes, there're time when Miata could beat S2K or Boxter, or Z4, or even Vett. It called " Autocross". Some courses are full of tight turn and not much stretch line, Miata have the edge.

As for the price, I got my S for less than $30k, and I don't think I know anyone who ever buy a car at MSRP( $33,000 for the S), do you?

Still have doubt? Here (http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=102138) , have some fun n see for yourself.

orionz06
08-04-2005, 17:07
Originally posted by JesS2K
Compare Apple to Apple, please, MOD car to MOD car, stock to stock. This kind of comparision makes me thinking of "1911 VS Glock", ...apple to orange.

Mazda speed MX5 couldn't even beat a stock S, Slap the same thing on the S and you think what the engine that has almost 100HP more to begin with will do?. Yes, there're time when Miata could beat S2K or Boxter, or Z4, or even Vett. It called " Autocross". Some courses are full of tight turn and not much stretch line, Miata have the edge.

As for the price, I got my S for less than $30k, and I don't think I know anyone who ever buy a car at MSRP( $33,000 for the S), do you?

Still have doubt? Here (http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=102138) , have some fun n see for yourself.

in the case of which one i would buy..i would get the s2k..if i were to autocross....miata, but id still want the s2k

bobby_w
08-06-2005, 03:39
Here is my last hobby car. Cruised all day @90mph on Houston freeways with 2 fingers on the wheel. Cornered like a go-cart.

1994 MX-5
Racing beat cold air intake
Jackson Racing Headers
Jackson Racing Exhaust
Team Loco 16" wheels
Dunlop Tires
Roll Bar
Short Shift Kit & Voodoo Knob
Flush Headlights
Many other little things....

A Great Miata Community is here >>> Miata Net (http://www.miata.net/) Its the GlockTalk for Miata's.

http://www.bobbywright.com/gallery/albums/1994-Miata/31170067_G.sized.jpg
http://www.bobbywright.com/gallery/albums/1994-Miata/31170062_G.sized.jpg
http://www.bobbywright.com/gallery/albums/1994-Miata/31170071_G.sized.jpg

bluebomberx
08-06-2005, 10:32
The 2006 Mazda MX-5 should be on dealer lots by the end of August. When it gets down to crunch time, there have been Mazdaspeeds sacrificed for $19000 brand new. If you really want one and want a great price, see how long you can hold out. Some say the extra power is ho-hum, but it put a bigger grin on my face than my 1999 Miata w/ sport package and my 1999 Miata 10AE.

new2mud
08-08-2005, 10:17
Originally posted by JesS2K
Compare Apple to Apple, please, MOD car to MOD car, stock to stock.

Sorry, but a much more appropriate comparo is dollar for dollar. To add forced induction to an S2K, you're out at least $5k. Bumping an already FI car to greater power levels is much, much cheaper.

JesS2K
08-09-2005, 14:23
That's why I said they are apple and orange, didn't I ? Unless we keep cross comparing between stock to lightly mod, or lightly mod to heavily mod like this forever. It would never end.

Poeple don't buy car just because of numbers in magazines or sticker price. Why do you think the more expensive Ferrari Modena still sells even it is slower than Ford GT, Why don't every 911 owner trade theirs in for EVO MR and Lambogini owners dump their cars and start building a heavily MOD Supra instead? No, I'm not talking about brand name. Something else called "Built Quality" and "High Level Engineering" and most important of all "Balance of the Package" shows not in the paper, but when you are( actually) in it and really drive it.

What important to you must be totally different than mine( and that's what I stated in my first reply), other wise I would have reccomend him a Doge Neon SRT4 already, don't you think?

;)