Llama or Norinco Single Stack .45 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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miko_a
07-10-2005, 21:54
Which is better? Llama or Norinco for a single stack .45?

I'm planning on buying this coming gunshow..


thanks

isuzu
07-10-2005, 23:04
Go for the Norinco. Spares for Llama are very hard to find. This is also true for their magazines. Some 1911 mags won't simply fit the Llama.

The metallurgy of Llama pistols are also inferior compared to Norinco's. I used to own a Norinco and it did not give me any problem at all.

bertud ng putik
07-11-2005, 02:19
go for norinco and get the enhanced factory special 1911A1. sa trust trade ka bumili kasi sila ang exclusive distributor ng norinco dito. dont buy and avoid llama at mahina nga bakal nito.

toxic
07-11-2005, 03:28
llama nyeh jamatic pistola, norinco has very good feedbacks.

mikol
07-11-2005, 03:38
Originally posted by toxic
llama nyeh jamatic pistola, norinco has very good feedbacks.
+1
mico_a you are lucky to have that Norinco factory enhance special 1911A1 back there in Manila. for us in the province(Cebu), we don't have it in our local stores shelves. we only have the standard g.i. type norinco.
so if i were you, i'll grabe that Norinco and just forget the Llama. Llama have some compatibility problems with standard 1911 replacement parts. just my 2cent.;f

horge
07-11-2005, 05:57
Please be aware that LLAMA (Fabrinor) factory has closed down in Spain.

Some background information:

The LLAMA brandname was originally owned by Gabilondo y Compania of Vitoria, Spain.
Gabilondo filed for bankruptcy in 1992, and in 1993 sixty of its gunsmiths and employees
began forming a co-op to buy the LLAMA name and all of Gabilondo’s equipment.

They took their time to get the best price (so as not to add to the debt they would inherit)
and finalized the transfer around the year 2000.

The cooperative that took over was named Fabrinor Arma Corta y Microfusion, S.A.
They were able to transfer out of Vitoria to a new facility in nearby Legutiano, Gojain, and attempted to sell off Gabilondo’s old real estate holdings around the old factory. They sought to diversify ---offering not just sidearms (‘armas cortas’), but precision parts made via fine investment casting (‘microfusion’).

Problem is, sales were not increasing fast enough to overtake the maturity of the old debt they inherited from Gabilondo. Fabrinor was able to reschedule said debts in 2002 and again in 2003, but even public listing didn't help. In December of 2004, the law stepped in on behalf of shareholders.

Fabrinor was compelled to call a special shareholder meeting January 12, 2005, to reveal fully to shareholders the company books, its plans to restructure into a limited partnership, and yet another long-shot attempt to reschedule its inherited debts.

Apparently, the shareholders didn’t buy it. It’s not surprising that the plant in Legutiano has closed.The question is whether it has closed for good, for piecemeal disposition of its assets, or if it is being kept intact for a new buyer.
I mean, Empresa Nacional Santa Barbara was somewhat recently bought by General Dynamics, so who knows?

STAR (Bonifacio Echevarria S.A.) went under in 1993, and into receivership under
rival ASTRA (Esperanza y Unceta, later Societa Unceta y Cia, and lastly Astra-Unceta y Cia), which in turn collapsed completely in 1997. With the apparent passing of LLAMA (Gabilondo y Cia, then Fabrinor) would come an end to the old Spanish triumvirate of pistolmakers in the north.

There does remain, to the east, the Catalan manufacturer DC Custom, which offers popular IPSC-style 1911-type competition pistols under the brand name S.P.S., and throughout the country, no shortage of young Spanish gunsmiths with dreams, better ideas on steel and computers, and a little money tucked away.

The newest issues of LLAMA are actually decent guns, though the bad reputation of the last batches from Vitoria (before the transfer to the new factory) affects all opinion. There certainly IS a problem with true 1911 compatibility --LLAMA made only one true 1911, and IIRC it wasn't branded a 'MAX'.

For those buying or having recently purchased LLAMA pistols, it might be best to ask deenoh about warranties, as WSC is the official distributor of the brand in the Philippines.


hth,
horge

Alexii
07-11-2005, 06:40
Goodness, horge. Is there anything you don't know?;)

My vote goes to the Norinco too. About the only few gripes I have with it are the diminutive sights, conspicuous tool marks, and out-of-spec grip bushings. All of which can be rectified by a competent gunsmith though. I'd get the most basic Norinco, customize the blaster to my specs, and have that Made in China label puttied up and reblued.;f

royal glockster
07-11-2005, 06:54
Originally posted by toxic
llama nyeh jamatic pistola, norinco has very good feedbacks.

+1, i dont want to malign the LLAMA brand but actual incidents dont lie. That pistol is really "problematic", as i actually witnessed how LLAma pistols jammed and failed to eject, not once but many times on different occasions and units used. Buy norinco, matigas pa ang bakal. :cool:

Eye Cutter
07-11-2005, 07:02
buy pilipino. get an armscor, rock island or a sam

royal glockster
07-11-2005, 07:16
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
buy pilipino. get an armscor, rock island or a sam

also agree with eyecutter, those are reliable pistols too! nakatulong pa tayo sa bayang pilipinas. Actually i have 2 sam pistols, commander and a government model, though i already sold the commodore (commander model). Kasi naman eyecutter, the choice is between norinco or llama, that's why i recommend norinco, hehehehe!

Eye Cutter
07-11-2005, 07:27
option lang naman yung buy pilipino suggestion!

mikol
07-11-2005, 07:51
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
buy pilipino. get an armscor, rock island or a sam
tumpak. so it means i already had contributed something kasi kabibili ko lang ng Sam Commodore. ;f maybe the next project is a 38 super RIA or a .40 cal Armscor or SAM again. ;f ;a ;)

miko_a
07-11-2005, 07:55
Everyone,

Thank you for all the help.. Really appreciate it.

Btw, any news on the RIA Molykote finish?

horge
07-11-2005, 07:57
Alexii,

Just regurgitating ;)
And.. hey, +1 to Alvin's suggestion/option!

Mabuhay ang Pilipinas!

vega
07-11-2005, 08:17
Llama is not a true 1911.
Go Norinco if you just want to decide between the 2.
Or better yet, get an Armscor like some suggested.

vega

deenoh
07-11-2005, 09:13
Originally posted by horge
For those buying or having recently purchased LLAMA pistols, it might be best to ask deenoh about warranties, as WSC is the official distributor of the brand in the Philippines.
hth,
horge

For your concerns sa warranty, WSC will cover anything that may need repairing on your Llama and any other pistol brands that we carry.

Regarding Miko's question. I think I can help, walang stock ng Single Stack .45 so I would suggest you go with a Norinco :) Napadali ang decision mo pards.

If you're going to go for a compact model, check us out sa gun show. We don't carry the standard size pistol unfortunately.

isuzu
07-11-2005, 16:37
Ooops! Before doing any alterations to the markings of the gun, please check the FED rules on altering or deleting markings on the gun. It could get you in some sort of trouble if the rule would strictly be adhered to.

Alexii
07-11-2005, 20:06
Originally posted by isuzu
Ooops! Before doing any alterations to the markings of the gun, please check the FED rules on altering or deleting markings on the gun. It could get you in some sort of trouble if the rule would strictly be adhered to.

Yup, that's actually my next question(s). Up to how far can one go in altering what's written on the slide? If I leave the serial number alone and erase everything else, would that be legal?

I know one military person who erased the Colt logo on his Colt and had the slide re-etched SAM. Go figure.

isuzu
07-11-2005, 22:05
I think that before you make any alterations on the gun's markings, you have to inform the FED about it, and you have to give them stencils before and after the gun has been altered.

Can't change the brand of the gun unless the military guy did it to "duplicate" his firearm with a license which is illegal under FED rules.

Remember, that if the gun is used in a shooting, lawyers could go as far as requesting for a micro-etching of the gun (just like what the LTO does to engines and chassis of vehicles) to find the authenticity of the serial nos. If the micro-etching gives out a conflicting result, then it's another big headache.

Alexii
07-11-2005, 23:18
Thanks for the heads-up, isuzu!

Will look into the nitty gritty part of the subject further. I hope it goes just as far as stencilling the before and after slide marks of the gun. If FED requires additional paperworks/fee for this, I may have to learn to live with the Made in China label.;)

mikol
07-11-2005, 23:35
Originally posted by Alexii
I may have to learn to live with the Made in China label.;)
sir alexii you might want to add an etching rather than trying to erase the "made in china". how about making in "made in china town", tapos (binondo) e di local made na yun boga mo.;f ;e ;e ;) ;)

Alexii
07-11-2005, 23:47
Originally posted by mikol
sir alexii you might want to add an etching rather than trying to erase the "made in china". how about making in "made in china town", tapos (binondo) e di local made na yun boga mo.;f ;e ;e ;) ;)

;z You made my day, mikol! ;z

nrmcolt
07-12-2005, 00:17
Originally posted by mikol
sir alexii you might want to add an etching rather than trying to erase the "made in china". how about making in "made in china town", tapos (binondo) e di local made na yun boga mo.;f ;e ;e ;) ;)

;z ;z Good one!

mirko128
07-12-2005, 08:20
While we're on the subject of markings, let me ask a question on the cocking serrations. ;Q

I have the basic gov't model Norinco and I don't like the vertical serrations. But I don't want to change the slide (yet) either.

Am I stuck with them or can our local 'smiths do them magic?

On getting the Llama vs. the Norinco, obviously my vote would be to the Norinco. Before my purchase, I searched a lot of posts here and on two 1911 forums. The number of people who had good words for it got me convinced to buy one.

mikol
07-12-2005, 08:39
Originally posted by Alexii
;z You made my day, mikol! ;z
just trying to add a bit of laughter guys. ;f
that's what really forum is all about, sharing ideas/knowledge and also some funny moments di ba sir nrmcolt?;f ;) ;)

vega
07-12-2005, 08:59
When I bought my Armscor 9mm I had the "Armscor" removed from the slide since I want plain slide. That's how it came out from the vendor since they do smithing work. When I sold it, I just had the SN stenciled. No question asked from FED. I can't re-call if there's a small Armscor etched at the side.

I'm not saying this is legal or illegal, it's up to the person what he wants to do with his FA. Just make sure that the SN is still there.

vega

9MX
07-12-2005, 09:05
Originally posted by Alexii
Yup, that's actually my next question(s). Up to how far can one go in altering what's written on the slide? If I leave the serial number alone and erase everything else, would that be legal?

I know one military person who erased the Colt logo on his Colt and had the slide re-etched SAM. Go figure.

alter all you want, just don't touch the FA's S/N:cool:

isuzu
07-12-2005, 18:24
The serrations don't really matter. The serial nos., logo of the manufacturer and other manufacturer's stampings are the important ones to consider. You could have front serrations or checkering as long as you don't alter the brand/make of the firearm, and the serial no. The two should go together.

In Browning Hi-Powers (I used to have a Mark III), The slide, barrel, and frame had matching serial nos. They were kinda neat.

darwin25
07-13-2005, 18:36
Originally posted by isuzu
This is also true for their magazines. Some 1911 mags won't simply fit the Llama.


I know for a fact that this is true. Maluwag ang mag insertion ng Llama. Kumamakalog ang magazine. Sometimes they will even fall. I was once issued a full sized Llama 1911 for my sidearm when I was still in Bataan. I exchanged it for a Colt DS and later, a Colt Python. No sacrifice there since we only have 3 mags each for our 1911s and Colt DS and Python has 4 speedloaders each plus lots of loose ammo that I can load even w/out the speedloaders.

Vault Keeper
07-13-2005, 19:11
Sir miko_a if you can spare a little, get the armscor medallion in either standard or the tactical models...great guns. My friend bought one few years ago, tried firing it myself. Ang sarap ng feel, literally parang dumaan sa gunsmith...