Wolff recoil spring power recommendations for G23 or G22

[seed]

I asked this same question in the 10 Ring about the Glock 20. And now I ask in regards to the Glock 23 and 22. I am interested in purchasing a bit of hot Doubletap ammo for my 20 (after my 10-day Kali waiting period) and for my G23 and G22 (as well as some other non-Glock .40's I own). Which strength Wolff recoil spring would you recommend (to be purchased with rod, of course) for either of these two Glock pistols? What has been your experience?

Thanks.

[SDGlock23]

I use a 22 lb. recoil spring in my Glock 23. It cylces everything from mild Miwall reloads to the hotter DoubleTap loads. It's good to see you are improving your spring since the factory original is not up to par.

[seed]

I use a 22 lb. recoil spring in my Glock 23. It cylces everything from mild Miwall reloads to the hotter DoubleTap loads. It's good to see you are improving your spring since the factory original is not up to par.

Thanks. Well, I actually did a long time ago (for my G23), however I am not sure what weight spring I got...You see I purchased a Hartt's recoil rod from John Quintrall (not sure if he still is smithing) and it came with a recoil spring of unknown weight (unknown to me at least). My understanding was that it was Wolff recoil spring. All I remember is that it was a mother to install the first time...I mean it was freakin' tough to get it in there. But after it set, it was no longer a problem. And after some early teething issues (it also was installed with a Bar-Sto barrel), it now works flawlessly. But I still need to know what power spring with which to replace its current spring in the not-so-distant future.

Funny you should have chosen the 22lb. recoil spring. That was the exact power Mike from Doubletap recommended to me over the phone for the G20. Coincidence? I don't know...I forgot to ask about what he recommended for the G23. But he said that the 22 lb. works with all loads in the G20, just like your experience with the G23.

As for the factory original spring not being up to par, boy you are not kidding. When I racked the G20 in the store before I bought it, I couldn't believe how weak the spring felt. My G22 still has the stock spring in it and it feels quite a bit more powerful than the one in the store's (soon to be mine) G20. It definitely got me thinking about the springs in all of my guns...hence this and another thread I started. Now my G20 is taken care of, my G22 and G23 will not be left behind for long.

[Glock4Life]

FWIW, I also use a 22# Wolff spring in my G23, particularly for factory loads/approaching max. reloads, and it will cycle everthing down to pathetic pup rounds. I don't know how well versed you are in reloading but I can run 3.8 gr. WST and 4.6 gr. VV340 behind a 180 gr. projectile without a problem. Both rounds are exceedingly light and the latter recoils less than most 9mm's I've ever picked up. I generally use lesser spring weights for soft reloads but my curiosity forced me to see how far down I could go with the 22# spring and still maintain ejection.

[seed]

Originally posted by Glock4Life
I generally use lesser spring weights for soft reloads but my curiosity forced me to see how far down I could go with the 22# spring and still maintain ejection.

I think they make pills for that now :) .

Anyway, Is anybody who is using stronger springs concerned with any battering of the take-down lever when a strong spring returns the slde and barrel into battery? Have the stronger springs caused any notable undesired wear and tear on this and or other parts during repeated slide returns?

[Glock4Life]

Originally posted by seed
I think they make pills for that now :) .

Anyway, Is anybody who is using stronger springs concerned with any battering of the take-down lever when a strong spring returns the slde and barrel into battery? Have the stronger springs caused any notable undesired wear and tear on this and or other parts during repeated slide returns?

Haven't broke one yet with many, many thousands of rounds fired. You are putting a bit more stress on the slide lock but again, no problems here. I keep some of the essential parts in my private stock anyway just in case I ever run into problems, after all machines do occasionally break down. On the plus side, using a heavier spring reduces battering to the slide ahead of the locking block area, commonly referred to as slide peening. I don't really think peening is that much of an issue anyway but if you can avoid it, why not. To me, stronger springs in the snappy .40 cal, help ease recoil of full power rounds. That's reason enough.

[Braden]

I've been thinking of upgrading the spring in my G22 so I'm glad I came across this thread. It inspired me to pick up a couple of items from Lone Wolf Distributors.

I ordered a Wolff 22 lb. spring and, just for good measure, a SS non-captured guide rod (Aro-Tek). I never have liked the captured guide rods anyway.

Hmmmm...what else do I need?? ;)

[Glock4Life]

Originally posted by Braden
I've been thinking of upgrading the spring in my G22 so I'm glad I came across this thread. It inspired me to pick up a couple of items from Lone Wolf Distributors.

I ordered a Wolff 22 lb. spring and, just for good measure, a SS non-captured guide rod (Aro-Tek). I never have liked the captured guide rods anyway.


Good call on the non-captured. I don't see why anybody would want a captured setup when you can change to a host of different springs on one rod with a non-captured rig. The extra weight of the steel rod will help with the muzzle flip a .40 produces as well. I think you'll be happy with your purchase. Springs are cheap. Try multiple spring weights if you so desire. Only takes seconds to change on the rod you purchased and you'll never need tools.

[seed]

Glock4Life, I did a bit of thinking and I came to the conclusion that a stronger spring would NOT cause any more harm than a weaker one. Don't laugh, hard thinking has helped me to solve a ton of problems and helped me to figure out how early Glock locking blocks were causing the once mysterious cuts found in the slides of earlier models.

Anyway, when you imagine the movement of the parts during firing and or cycling, the theory was given to me that the stronger spring would slam the slide harder into the stop upon return to battery. Well it would definetly come home faster and harder, however the base of the recoil rod will be on the other side to counter the forward momentum of the barrel underlug. The stronger spring would actually help to counteract its own strength at the last moment as the slide lock is sandwiched between the underlug and base of the recoil rod. So, other than being sandwiched slightly more, there is no more force in one direction versus another. You follow?

Bottom line, Mike McNett at Doubletap ammo (a man who knows one hell of lot more about using powerful ammo and stronger springs than I do) told me that from his experience, the theory of stronger springs causing more damage upon return to battery is a myth. In the case of Glocks, about which I know more than I do about any other gun type, I would have to say that what he says would only make sense. I haven't studied the question on other types of guns yet, but I will. I can't imagine that the answer will be different for any other types of guns, but you never know...but I highly doubt it.

So what do you think?

[Braden]

Originally posted by Glock4Life
Good call on the non-captured. I don't see why anybody would want a captured setup when you can change to a host of different springs on one rod with a non-captured rig. The extra weight of the steel rod will help with the muzzle flip a .40 produces as well. I think you'll be happy with your purchase. Springs are cheap. Try multiple spring weights if you so desire. Only takes seconds to change on the rod you purchased and you'll never need tools.

I agree that non-captured rods allow you to easily change spring weights. Another bonus is that they are MUCH easier to clean and lubricate (if you so desire). ;) Actually, I have a captured steel guide rod that I bought shortly after I bought my G22, but I ended up taking it off and putting the stock one back on. It seemed to shave off a very fine metal dust that I didn't like.

[Glock4Life]

Originally posted by seed

So what do you think?

Well first I'd agree that McNett is no lightweight when it comes to knowledge. But I would still have to contend that a stronger spring would indeed emit more inertial force onto the slide lock, although I also think it' been proven that at least in this case, it's not enough to cause issues. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at in regard to the rod countering the forward momentum. The spring is actually uncoiling and returning to it's outstreched form upon return to battery. It gets sandwiched during the rearward movement of the slide which is why a stronger spring removes some of the force from the slide I.E. frame battering/peening because it's increased strength can absorb more rearward force. Then when the slide returns to battery, the spring is uncoiling and sort of "yanking" everything back to the starting point. There could be some mechanical variance within this process that allows energy to be dissipated to another source but as I'm sure you know the #1 law of physics is that every action has an equal but opposite reaction and that return energy has to be trasferred somewhere.

[seed]

Glock4Life, when I wrote the "sandwiched" bit, I meant the slide stop which is also the take-down lever. Anyway, strip your Glock and then kind of put the slide assembly on top of the frame at an angle so you can see how it looks when the gun is at rest. Be sure to line up the slide to the same position as it would be if it was assembled. You will see that the back of the recoil rod (the flat, thin and wide cylinder) is resting on the slide stop. You will also notice that the barrel lug is also resting (or would be) on the slide stop, with the thin lip on the very front of the lug obviously meant to go into the almost equally thin slot in the slide stop...hence the sandwich.

When the Glock is fired or racked, the back of the recoil rod force back into the slide stop, but the barrel travels backwards. At this point, the advantage of having a strong recoil spring is obvious. Once the slide finishes its rearward travel, the back of the recoil rod is slammed (with the remaining force of recoil not absorbed by the spring) into the front of the slide stop by the inner front of the slide pushing the front of the now squished recoil spring back hard into the flat, wide cylinder at the end of the recoil rod. A strong spring reduces the extent of the power of this blow.

But now the return. Provided there is no infamous limpwrist, the rearward force is halted and now the action of the compressed spring takes over. The extra power spring is really driving it home...harder and faster than the factory standard spring. The slide finally passes over the chamber lug and the back of the ejection port re-establishes contact with the rear portion of the hood and pushes the barrel forward. The underlugs disingage the locking block and the barrel is again locked into the slide. The slide is still moving with great force and imminent peril for the slide stop which may not be built for such strong after-market springs...It shutters in anticipation ;f .

Finally, the front portion of the barrel lug re-establishes contact with the slide stop. But right when it does this with great force, the slide stop is pushed into the flat cylinder of the recoil rod, which has the force equal to the strength of the spring to counter the forward push against the slide stop. So instead of the stop being brutally shoved forward, it is merely brutally squished...more so than with lighter springs, but only by about five pounds. The metal can take getting squished fine...More importantly, the frame does NOT get battered in the forward phase of the cycle. Only the barrel underlug gets slammed in one direction harder than it would with a weaker spring. And the barrel underlug is designed to take WAY more battering than this (i.e. rearward travel).

So, did I do OK explaining what I meant?

[Braden]

Bottom line...too many people have upgraded their springs without any negative side effects to worry about it. ;)

[seed]

Originally posted by Braden
Bottom line...too many people have upgraded their springs without any negative side effects to worry about it. ;)

Braden, that is so damned true! You basically hit the nail square on the head.

[Glock4Life]

Originally posted by seed

So, did I do OK explaining what I meant?

Absolutely. And so we still agree. The key to it all was the sentence about the extra 5 lbs. of force. Pretty much what we've both been saying all along. More but not enough to harm a thing. I think the real benefit of the stonger springs is seen in the rearward motion of the slide and to me, the forward movement is a non-issue other than stronger springs will, in theory, create slightly more muzzle dip upon return to battery. I'd rather contend with that however and shoot a gun that to me, has a much better perceived feel to it during live fire.

[seed]

If it did create more muzzle dip upon return to battery, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing as it would assist you in countering the muzzle flip that we all experience...especially with hotter rounds through uncompensated pistols.

[Glock4Life]

Originally posted by seed
If it did create more muzzle dip upon return to battery, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing as it would assist you in countering the muzzle flip that we all experience...especially with hotter rounds through uncompensated pistols.

Once again we agree but I dare say that the majority of comp shooters go with lighter springs. Often times, the lighter the better. Through conversations, it appears that most feel it's easier ro recover back downward from flip than it is to recover from an accelerated dip or they say that they'd rather take the recoil in one, initial blow and recover more quickly afterward. I'm only saying what I've been told by my competitive shooting friends. I'll stick with my heavier spring, when shooting .40 anyway. Truth is, I use springs from 14# to 22# depending on the load and by that I mean reloads. Have you ever read Wolff's guidelines for recoil spring choice? They recommend that you shoot the spring that causes brass ejection to the 3-4 ft. range. I have found this to be very true and helpful in determining spring choices. You want to maintain proper ejection, but you don't necessarily need or want your brass flying into the next area code and that's likely what you'll experience when firing full power loads with a factory spring. If I want the lightest feel of all (for me anyway) I'll even shave a little off those recommendations and go for minimal brass flight in the range of a foot or two. They still cycle with no issues but in the process absorb the maximum amount of the rearward energy. If you wind up with stovepipes you've gone too far and keep in mind, I'm talking range use here, not carry. So far no problems with countless thousands of rounds fired but others opinions vary. I've been involved in I'm guessing hundreds of spring war threads on this site over the course of time and if there's one thing I've learned...There's two schools of thought and I've chosen mine.:cool:

[seed]

Originally posted by Glock4Life
I've been involved in I'm guessing hundreds of spring war threads on this site over the course of time and if there's one thing I've learned...There's two schools of thought and I've chosen mine.:cool:

Geez...Are you serious? I guess some people are pretty emotional about...well everything. I'm talking about them, not you. You seem rational to me.

Anyway, comp shooters usually have compensated barrels and thus lose some of the backward recoil push and gain it on the dip you were talking about. For them, a lighter recoil spring would only make sense.