PM9 #2 - Back From Kahr...

[GirlWithGlock]

(For those of you that may not have read the other two topics leading up to this one, the information below will fill you in!)

Having Issues With PM9:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=400839
PM9 Returns To Me From Kahr:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=406008

Okay...so for those of you interested, I received my PM9 back from Stefan at Kahr. (Have I mentioned how much I love Stefan? ;f) First I'd like to point out that I sent it to him on Monday and he had my replacement PM9 back to SW and in my hands on Friday.

Stefan polished the heck out of the feed ramp, the barrel hood, and the trigger. He added night sites at no cost to me, which I love. He asked what kind of ammo we planned on using so that he could test it to make sure it was going to feed properly; then he proceeded to put over 200 rounds through it to make sure it was working properly. He also threw in a couple of "goodies" from the Kahr store. ;f

So I grabbed two boxes of Winchester White Box ammo and set a date with my husband (Jeff) at the range. We also brought 200 rounds for the G23, whom I never ignore during a trip to the range. (Have you hugged YOUR Glock today?)

First let me say that this PM9 is SO much better than the first. OBVIOUSLY the first one just wasn't right. Between Jeff and myself, we put over 200 rounds through it. We had absolutely no misfeeds, not even ONE. You can imagine my excitement! He even put in some crappy Independence 115 gr. FMJ ammo and still had no FTF or FTB. And just for the record, we also used some Federal Premium HST jacketed hollow point 124 grain ammo, which is what I plan on having in it while carrying.

For Jeff, not one single failure to battery. For me on the other hand, I'm still having the FTB problem. Not near as much as I did with the first PM9, but still having the problem. I had no FTB during the first several magazines. It didn't seem to start happening until about 100 rounds into shooting it. (Again, still no FTB for Jeff, just me.) Towards the end, Jeff even started to loosen his grip to see if I could be limp wristing. No matter how loose he held it, he couldn't get it to FTB.

So here's my question: Before I purchased this gun, I rented one and it never FTB. Not even one time for me. So any ideas why it could be happening to me with this one? If I'm limp wristing with this gun, why didn't it happen with the rental PM9, which we put over 200 rounds through as well.


P.S. G23 ran perfectly as usual. ;f Well over a thousand rounds through that little sweetheart now.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Originally posted by GirlWithGlock
So here's my question: Before I purchased this gun, I rented one and it never FTB. Not even one time for me. So any ideas why it could be happening to me with this one? If I'm limp wristing with this gun, why didn't it happen with the rental PM9, which we put over 200 rounds through as well.

New springs. Once they've had a chance to wear in some more (more shooting), that should fix the problem.

The rental pistol has likely had several thousand rounds through it.

Put another 300-400 rounds through it, and the problem should correct itself.

Also, doing grip exercises will help with this in the future.

[GirlWithGlock]

Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
New springs. Once they've had a chance to wear in some more (more shooting), that should fix the problem.

The rental pistol has likely had several thousand rounds through it.

Put another 300-400 rounds through it, and the problem should correct itself.

Also, doing grip exercises will help with this in the future.
Thanks for your response, Alex! But if it's just a spring needing to wear in, why isn't it doing this for Jeff?

[Article2]

Have you cleaned and lubed the new PM9 yet? Did Stefan clean and lube before shipment? Marginal limp-wristing could show up more readily on a dirty gun.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Originally posted by GirlWithGlock
Thanks for your response, Alex! But if it's just a spring needing to wear in, why isn't it doing this for Jeff?

I would imagine that Jeff has more grip strength than you.

[GirlWithGlock]

Originally posted by Article2
Have you cleaned and lubed the new PM9 yet? Did Stefan clean and lube before shipment? Marginal limp-wristing could show up more readily on a dirty gun.

Yep. Cleaned and lubed it really good before shooting it.

EDITED TO ADD: Even used Michigun's Lube Instructions when I lubed it! :)

[goblue]

Keep shooting. You'll get the grip down. Gald to hear the gun is running much better.

[BikerRN]

GWG, did you say that the problems started after firing 100 or so rounds?

If so your problem may be that you shot the gun dry. Kahrs like their lube, so much so that I lube my PM9 every week as I'm wiping the dust bunnies off it. Your husband may have had a stiffer grip or a wrist that was less flexable than yours, thus allowing the gun to overcome the lube issue, if it was a lube issue.

I would suggest you go home, clean the PM9, lube it, load it, shoot 100 rounds through it. Clean after every 100 rounds and see what this does for your problems with the Kahr. Kahrs like their lube, in fact I've put a stain in my pant's pocket from carrying the Kahr there 24/7.

It may work for you, I know it does for me. Good luck!

[GirlWithGlock]

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll give that a try BikerRN. :)

[buddah]

I'm glad Kahr took care of you and that you have a gun that works. Kudos to Stephan and Kahr for steppin' up and making things right. I hope they find the source for this recent bad batch of PM9. Probably some machinist or QC guy who was hung over from a night of drinking. As I posted earlier I had a New PM9 that was a lemon and Stephan @ Kahr swapped it out in a week. My replacement gun works ALOT better but still not 100%. I will take the advice of the other Kahr club members and watch my grip while shooting and shoot more rounds to break-in the spring.

[mercury40]

I'm glad that Kahr made it right for you.

My PM9 has been 100% reliable, sounds like your's was a lemon.
Kahr's Customer Service did what they should do; make sure that the customer is satisfied.

Enjoy it and keep it lightly lubed.

[WOD]

GWG,

So glad to see that Kahr has taken care of you and Kudos for all the extras. Every gun, just like every automobile is different. For example, my brother is a mechanic and performance car junky and he can notice subtleties in a way a car accelerates and idles and thus I take him with me when I buy a new car. We can drive three cars of the same make and model and each one will be slightly different to him. I personally cant tell until he points it out to me. Basically all I am saying is that guns are mechanical as well and subject to many variables that occur during manufacturing. The first gun part through a miller with a new cutter will be different than the last gun part running through the same set of cutters. They may be within spec, but one part may need more break in time than the other to fit proper. Your gun sounds similiar to my new PM9. It had a few failures in the first couple of hundred rounds, but now it has close to 1000 FLAWLESS:) rounds through it and as you well know I pounded this little PM9 hard as these 1200 rounds came in less than 2 months. I trust my life to it now and I am all the more confident because I can hit what I am aiming at. Your gun could be very tight and thus after a hundred rounds the heat and the dirt could cause it to fail on you due to excess friction. Your husband may have an iron grip and thus allow it to retain enough energy to cycle regardless of the grime and friction. Also, I noted that both my Glock buddies inadvertently pushed on the mag release more than once and caused FTF's and FTB's. Stick with it and good luck. Hopefully we will see you on board as GWK;)

[Michigun]

Originally posted by GirlWithGlock
So here's my question: Before I purchased this gun, I rented one and it never FTB. Not even one time for me. So any ideas why it could be happening to me with this one? If I'm limp wristing with this gun, why didn't it happen with the rental PM9, which we put over 200 rounds through as well.

I say a combination of a new, tight gun/springs & "shooter fatigue"... I bet you don't have a problem with your next 100 rounds on a fresh gun on a fresh day. ^c

By the way, I'm glad that you're finally getting to play with a normal Kahr sample! ^c

[GirlWithGlock]

Thanks you guys! I appreciate all of the advice. So far I'm pretty darn happy with this gun. I'll let you know how the next gun range trip goes!

Now, excuse me while I go write a nice letter to Mr. Moon regarding my excellent customer service from Stefan. :)

[dosei]

So.....do we get to see any pics of your new baby?

[GirlWithGlock]

Well, I haven't taken any yet but since you asked...sure! :) I'll take some tonight or tomorrow and post them in this thread! :)

[Dandapani]

Mine would FTB when hot after around 100 rounds. Another drop of oil on the barrel and all would be well. Try using Tetra Gun Grease on the barrel instead of oil. It seemed to last longer during range time.

[Bruce Foreman]

Originally posted by GirlWithGlock


I had no FTB during the first several magazines. It didn't seem to start happening until about 100 rounds into shooting it. (Again, still no FTB for Jeff, just me.) Towards the end, Jeff even started to loosen his grip to see if I could be limp wristing. No matter how loose he held it, he couldn't get it to FTB.



Not "limp wristing". Since you put around 100 rounds thru with no problem, and since Jeff had no problem with it, the gun is fine.

Here's what I think is happening. It's a small thinner gun, requiring diffrent pressure to grip firmly. After 100 rounds of constant firing some degree of grip fatigue may be setting in. Not enough to notice but enough to cause inconsistency of grip to occur.

I run into the same thing at about the same point. At 66 going on 67 I have painful thickening of some finger and hand muscles and I can put about 100 rounds thru my PM9 and then my grip gets inconsistent. I can switch to a Glock 26 and continue but that has a thicker grip that "fills" my hand more and consistency of grip is easier.

Suggestion: Fire about 100 rounds thru your PM9 then switch to your Glock for a while. Take a break and try for another 50 or so out of the Kahr and see what happens.

Hope this helps and glad you have a working PM9.

Bruce Foreman
Defensive Handgun Instructor

[GirlWithGlock]

dmobrien2001...Thanks for the suggestion! You're about the third person that has recommended the Tetra Gun Grease to me so I think I'll pick some up. Any idea where I can find it; is it something I can get in a store or only online?

Originally posted by Bruce Foreman
Not "limp wristing". Since you put around 100 rounds thru with no problem, and since Jeff had no problem with it, the gun is fine.

Here's what I think is happening. It's a small thinner gun, requiring diffrent pressure to grip firmly. After 100 rounds of constant firing some degree of grip fatigue may be setting in. Not enough to notice but enough to cause inconsistency of grip to occur.

I run into the same thing at about the same point. At 66 going on 67 I have painful thickening of some finger and hand muscles and I can put about 100 rounds thru my PM9 and then my grip gets inconsistent. I can switch to a Glock 26 and continue but that has a thicker grip that "fills" my hand more and consistency of grip is easier.

Suggestion: Fire about 100 rounds thru your PM9 then switch to your Glock for a while. Take a break and try for another 50 or so out of the Kahr and see what happens.

Hope this helps and glad you have a working PM9.

Bruce Foreman
Defensive Handgun Instructor
Thanks Bruce. :) I know the gun is fine; if it was the gun, Jeff would be having the same problems and it fired 100% for him.

I do think you are exactly right about grip fatigue, as someone here also mentioned earlier. The grip is small for my hand compared to my Glock so my hands actually do get "tired" when firing it for awhile. I was taking breaks often - switching off with Jeff; shooting my Glock and helping my kids shoot, but this still happened even after the breaks. Next time I will try to make the breaks a little longer and add some oil to the barrel as mentioned by dmobrien2001. Before too long, I should have this gun all figured out. :)

Something else I've noticed is that my trigger-finger gets sore after shooting the PM9; I find the trigger-pull to be very heavy. (Of course, I've also been spoiled with all of my dad's guns that have amazingly beautiful, light trigger pulls.) I realize this is a gun to be "carried often and fired little" but it's rough during the break-in period. :)

I am really enjoying it this time. I wouldn't trade my Glock for it, but I'm really starting to warm up to the little guy. ;)

[Dandapani]

Originally posted by GirlWithGlock
dmobrien2001...Thanks for the suggestion! You're about the third person that has recommended the Tetra Gun Grease to me so I think I'll pick some up. Any idea where I can find it; is it something I can get in a store or only online?


GWG, when I lived in Ohio I picked it up at my local big box sporting goods store, but since I moved to Florida, I'm not sure where I would buy another tube and would likely get it online somewhere.

Brownwell is as good as another online firearms stuff vendor:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=6534&title=GUN+LUBRICANTS

[GirlWithGlock]

dmobrien2001...Is all the Tetra stuff good or just the Gun Grease? I'm considering the whole pack:

TETRA GUN CARE CLEANING PACK - Contains the complete Tetra system of products to fight corrosion and friction, improve accuracy, reduce wear and make future gun cleaning easier and less time consuming. Kit contains: 3.75 oz. bottle of Tetra Gun SLC, 1 oz. bottle of Tetra Gun Lube, 1 oz. tube of Tetra Gun Grease, 4 oz. bottle of Tetra Copper Solvent.

[Article2]

I almost hate to mention this but I think Sportsman's Warehouse may carry it. ^3

[goblue]

Don't know about the Kahr, but just about any lube works on the Glock. I use Miltec-1 on my AR and started with it on the glock. I think I put some on the Kahr, but have not shot it yet.

[GirlWithGlock]

Originally posted by Article2
I almost hate to mention this but I think Sportsman's Warehouse may carry it. ^3
;z ;z ;z ;z ;z
Article2...you are getting to know me better than I thought. ;)

goblue...thanks! Let me know how it works on your PM9! :)

[Tough Guy Levi]

Howdy:

GWG:

Thanks for the photo of you and your Glock/Kahr. My Kahr PM 9 has now over 500 rounds with one self-induced FTF due to a limp-wrist. I don't use lube/oil but use Microlon gun treatment (http://www.microlon.com/firearms.asp). My weapon has operated flawlessly from the getgo after I treated my Kahr per "lube" diagram depicted in this forum.

I use the treatment on my Cowboy Action Shooting weapons (2-EMF II Great Western .38/.357s, EMF Border Rifle .38/.357 and my Winchester 12 ga 1897, manufactured in 1912. All have experienced flawless operations too. Our CAS site is in Norco, CA (www.the-cowboys.org) 60 miles East of LA. It is not only hot during this time of the year but dusty as heck due to the environment and movement during CAS etc. Everything is covered with fine dirt particles and if it sticks to oil/lube, I can tell you it will quit working.

Thanks for your Kahr feedback and updates

Tough Guy Levi
SASS# 61430L

PS: Photo- Notice empty left holster and notice I am shooting left handed! Empty right holster, I shoot right handed. Saves time and possible dropped weapon during transfer from one hand to the other!!

[GirlWithGlock]

Thanks for the suggestion of Microlon. Sounds like it's working great for you! I'll have to check it out!

Thanks for sharing the picture! I love when people post shooting pictures. :)

Where in Orange County do you live? I lived in Irvine for two years.


EDIT: Just noticed it's the city of Orange, not Orange County! :)

[Tough Guy Levi]

Howdy GWG

My office has been in the City of Orange since 1978 but I live in The Ranch (Irvine). I wasn't a Microlon beliver until a client's son in Iraq received a survival package (nameless defensive stuff) from a friend including Microlon. His armorer liked this metal treatment so much he requested more of it be sent ASAP. My client says his son is very popular these days!! Dirt/dust particles no longer are attracted to the lube they were using!

Tough Guy Levi (http://www.sheetmusiccenter.com/67/153.jpg)
SASS# 61430L
NRA Life (1967)

PS: Fellow behind me is TEX- his SASS badge number is 4 thus he's been in this CAS "business" since the mid-80s. One of my fellow Orange North Rotarian's badge number is 32xxx having joined SASS (wwww.sassnet.com) in 1999. I think SASS badge numbers are 68,000+. Joined SASS in November 04 because I was tired shooting at paper targets. Lots more fun CAS plus one meets some very neat PARDS!

[FL-obiwan]

I'm just getting up to date with your "saga of Kahr". I'm glad you've got your replacement and all is mostly well. I'm in agreement that your problem is prob lube related. I'll stand by my earlier recommendations of Tetra-gun grease or Poly Pro Tec. I originally bought the Tetra package. I found that I like the grease the best (super for slide rails and contact points) and the oil for general lube. Definitely follow the instructions on "treating" the gun. I used up the other stuff but never bought replacements. The grease doesn't evaporate or run. It's an excellent choice. I've been seeing it lately at gun shows. I only switched to Poly Pro Tec because it dries dry. Lube quality is superb. Very easy to clean.

Microlon has some interesting products. I used their aviation products for years. LOVE THEM! I've never used their gun products, but if they work as well as the aviation stuff they should be super!

You'd better watch it because hubby may draft your PM as his "work" gun in pocket or smart carry.;a

[GirlWithGlock]

Right now our arguement is who will carry the G23 as neither of us trust the PM9 100% yet. ;i It will take a little more time at the range to make sure we trust it. It works like a charm for Jeff; they were meant for each other I think. ;)

[Bruce Foreman]

Originally posted by GirlWithGlock
Right now our arguement is who will carry the G23 as neither of us trust the PM9 100% yet. ;i It will take a little more time at the range to make sure we trust it. It works like a charm for Jeff; they were meant for each other I think. ;)

Let's try to put your "ordeal" with PM9's in real world perspective.

Both of my Colt Lightweight Commanders will only go 50-80 rounds and then need the barrel & bushing wiped and relubed. The fit of those parts is close enough to be VERY accurate but when they get dirty the gun begins failing to go fully into battery.

But I carry either of them clean and only have 2 spare mags max on me (total of 25 rounds max). So even though when shooting an IPSC match I have to hit the "fiddle" table and clean the gun after stage 3, I still trust the gun out "on the street".

Most confrontations are solved with 0-3 shots fired.

If at the beginning of a shooting session you can put 3-4 mags through it with no problem, I think you can "trust" it. After all, how many 50 - 100 round "fights" are you going to get into (most of us don't carry but one or two spare mags anyway).

So what I do when I get out to our range, is to set up one "drill" and shoot it (with whatever I've been carrying recently) WITH NO WARMUP WHATSOEVER! This will give you some hint of what you can expect out of yourself and your gear "on the streets".

Typically this drill will consist of starting out with back to target (assailant) at almost "contact" distance, turn & draw to close retention, fire one shot and move on diagonal opening up distance while continuing to fire on the move for 3-5 more rounds.

Lately I shoot this drill with my PM9 and it hasn't disappointed me yet.

If your range facility allows something like this, maybe you can build confidence in your PM9.

Bruce Foreman
Defensive Handgun Instructor

[GirlWithGlock]

Wow...that sounds like fun! I am always game for game-type defensive shooting to see how well I can do. At the range I go to, one of the guys that works there turned the target sideways for me and had me just relax with my gun at my side. Without me knowing when exactly he was going to do it, he'd turn it and I would fire several rounds into a target of a guy holding a lady hostage, as fast as I could. I had so much fun!! I could have done that all day long!! Nine of my ten rounds hit the BG in the center of his stomach. The lady's hip took a slight graze on one of the rounds. ;) Not bad for ten rapid fire shots though!! (I was shooting my G23 for that drill.)

[FL-obiwan]

It sounds like you're a candidate for Gunsite/Thunder Ranch or one Ayoob's classes. Keep on learning!:cool:

[GirlWithGlock]

I'm having so much fun learning!! I am seriously considering a career in the field of guns and shooting somehow! Not a clue how to go about it yet, but working on it. :)

[colvee]

hi, same history with my pm9. now back at kahr arms for the 2nd time, been there 13 days with no estimate given for its repair or replacement date. hoping stefan can help. do you have his extension #? will really appreciate it. thanks.

[mwheeler]

GWG- Something you may want to consider: It's inexpensive (less than $10) and you can pull it off the grip if it doesn't help or for some reason you don't like it:

http://www.getgrip.com/main/overview/handall.html

I have had one on my P9 Covert since about a month after I bought it (Oct 2001) and it makes a major difference for me in the control and handling. Most gun shops have the Hogue Handall Jr. (that's the one that fits your PM9 and my Covert).

[goblue]

Originally posted by mwheeler
GWG- Something you may want to consider: It's inexpensive (less than $10) and you can pull it off the grip if it doesn't help or for some reason you don't like it:

http://www.getgrip.com/main/overview/handall.html



You can try mine