View Full Version : pm9 barrel problem
bandit99
07-20-2005, 09:12
Hi,
I purchased a used pm9 in april. I was told by the dealer that the previous owner had problems with the gun and he had sent it to the factory for repair. The factory replaced the barrel, recoil spring, extractor and slide stop. I have put around 700 rounds through the gun over the months I've had it. It ran flawlessly until the last 100 rounds or so. The ejection pattern started to change and would send the brass back at my forehead instead of over my shoulder. The brass was also getting crunched somehow as it ejected. Examaning the gun revealed that the top of the barrel is getting hammered back by the slide and forming a ledge. This ledge is at the top and front of the square part of the barrel. Also, this ledge is causing the slide to hang up before you can engage the slide stop and is starting to make dissassembly difficult.(in another post someone posted a picture of a pm9 locking up the same way) I've sent the slide assembly off to the factory but was told that they will not warranty it. If the factory repairs the pistol I'm not sure that I'll keep it. The pistol is perfect for concealed carry but I don't want it to break a third time. Should I keep it or go to a mk9 or k9. I want to be able to go to the range and fire about 200 rounds a month and I'm not sure that this om9 will be up to it. I am by no means a gunsmith so I don't know if the barrel is too soft or if the recoil spring is not doing its job. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks
LGCubana
07-20-2005, 09:41
All of your problems R symptoms of a recoil spring that's loosing it's strength.
D shaped spent brass is not unusual. Both of my MK's do it.
U may also notice the accuracy degrading as well. As the slide may start moving back early.
All due to a weak spring.
Michigun
07-20-2005, 09:55
Originally posted by bandit99
I've sent the slide assembly off to the factory but was told that they will not warranty it.
Who told you that?
I'd be VERY surprised if Kahr charged you anything.
Originally posted by bandit99
I want to be able to go to the range and fire about 200 rounds a month and I'm not sure that this om9 will be up to it.
A correctly functioning Kahr is MORE then up to that... all of my past & present polymer Kahrs have seen 5,000+ rounds in their 1st years. No problems.
Originally posted by bandit99
... I don't know if the barrel is too soft...
You may have a soft barrel along with everything that LGCubana stated.
bandit99
07-20-2005, 10:11
Thanks for your answers guys. I'm 99% sure the brass was not getting crunched until the barrel ledge formed. As for accuracy, the pistol started shooting high but I don't know if I was flinching in anticipation of getting pelted in the forehead. I sent the slide assembly off Monday so I will post back when I hear from the factory. As for who told me there will be no warranty coverage, I will wait and see what the factory actually does for me before I say who it was.
Thanks again
Michigun
07-20-2005, 12:07
Originally posted by bandit99
As for accuracy, the pistol started shooting high but I don't know if I was flinching in anticipation of getting pelted in the forehead.
I'm betting you have it right there! ;f
Hunting Coyotes
07-20-2005, 21:10
If you do a search for barrel peaning you will see that I and others had the same ledge form on the front of the barrel hood (square part)that you describe. I had my barrel replaced and it is still doing it. You can take a file and file off the ledge and smooth up the inside of the slide and it will work fine. If it isn't fixed, it will continue to make a bigger ledge and make the barrel hood hang up on the slide even more...causing more failures to go completly into battery as well as more ejection and feeding problems This is not good for a weapon that you want to depend on your life for!!!
I must say that I strongly beleive that this is a serious defect in design and/or materials.
I hope other people experiencing this problem will contact Kahr and let us know about it on the forum. Kahr needs to fix this!
BackDraft
07-20-2005, 22:10
Originally posted by bandit99
Hi,
I purchased a used pm9 in april. I was told by the dealer that the previous owner had problems with the gun and he had sent it to the factory for repair. The factory replaced the barrel, recoil spring, extractor and slide stop. I have put around 700 rounds through the gun over the months I've had it. It ran flawlessly until the last 100 rounds or so. The ejection pattern started to change and would send the brass back at my forehead instead of over my shoulder. The brass was also getting crunched somehow as it ejected. Examaning the gun revealed that the top of the barrel is getting hammered back by the slide and forming a ledge. This ledge is at the top and front of the square part of the barrel. Also, this ledge is causing the slide to hang up before you can engage the slide stop and is starting to make dissassembly difficult.(in another post someone posted a picture of a pm9 locking up the same way) I've sent the slide assembly off to the factory but was told that they will not warranty it. If the factory repairs the pistol I'm not sure that I'll keep it. The pistol is perfect for concealed carry but I don't want it to break a third time. Should I keep it or go to a mk9 or k9. I want to be able to go to the range and fire about 200 rounds a month and I'm not sure that this om9 will be up to it. I am by no means a gunsmith so I don't know if the barrel is too soft or if the recoil spring is not doing its job. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks
Call Kahr and ask for Stefan and explain it to him and if he can help you out he will do it. If I were you don't deal with Dottie. She works in the office and thats it, Stefan actully works on the guns and is the main tech guy. Ask Girl with lock he is the one who straighten out the mess she had with her PM9
bandit99
07-29-2005, 14:57
Hi
Fedex just showed up a few minutes ago with a whole new top half for my pistol. The factory replaced barrel, slide, & recoil spring assy. Kahr covered it all under the warranty. Dottie returned my calls very quickly when I had questions. Will give a range report later on. So far I am pleased with their service.
TowGunChuck
07-31-2005, 23:49
I had exactly the same problem with my PM9, After about 500 rounds the burr formed at the top of the barrel where it engages the slide became large enough to prevent the slide from cycling reliably. I sent the gun back to Kahr. They returned it noting that they replaced the slide and barrel. Went to the range and fired 100 rounds yesterday. Guess what? Same problem again. THe burr is not bad enough yet to interfere with normal operation, but it will be soon. So I guess I have to send the gun back to the factory again. On the way out of the range I bought a S&W 340PD.
I wonder if this problem is caused by a defect in the barrel, or by a defect in the location of the hole for the slide stop. If the hole were too low, it could prevent the barrel from fully engaging the slide, which is exactly what is happening. Looking at the barrel, though, I see a little nub on top of the barrel that may be preventing proper engagement with the slide.
I think I see another PM9 recall on the horizon. This is too bad, because when it works, the PM9 is a great little gun.
Hunting Coyotes
08-01-2005, 15:17
TOWGUNCHUCK,
please see my post above...my experience is exactly the same, however, I had Kahr send me the barrel and recoil spring assembly since it a royal hassle to send the gun back. 100 rds later, the same thing started happening. I took a mill flat file and filed the "ledge" off and it seems to work fine.
Once again, this seems to be a rather common problem and is likely either a defect in materials or design.
Are you folks shooting +P or +P+ ammo? Mine will develop a serious burr in 50 rounds of Federal 115 +P+. I have decided to stick with standard pressure loads in mine, I think asking a gun that light to stand up to alot of hot ammo is too much. Though, I do think the barrels are a little too soft.
TonySoprano
08-01-2005, 19:13
I'm using Federal +P+ 124 HydroShoks no problems here and Backdraft uses same and also Federal +P124 EFMJ and his Kahr has over 8,000 rounds since he got it.
TowGunChuck
08-01-2005, 21:48
I have used nothing but standard velocity loads. No +P. I know that I could file the burr off, but not sure what effect that would have on safety let alone any future warranty claims.
I just received an email response from Dottie at Kahr. She said "We now know for a fact that your barrel was peening and fully believe this is still the problem. The reason I believe this is because we have had several returns with this problem and Engineering is conducting a design of experiments right now to try and isolate the cause. It is only on the PM9, but not all the barrels, so we are somewhat puzzled. It does not appear to be a hardness issue. If I may suggest, please return only the slide assembly and let us try to replace it one more time..."
bandit99
08-02-2005, 07:05
I got to the range the other day and ran 100 winchester 115 gr fmj, 20 135 gr hydrashoks, and 24 124 gr gold gots thru the the pm9. The pistol ran fine. No ledge yet. Hopefully I have a good barrel now.
Hunting Coyotes
08-02-2005, 14:16
TowGunChuck,
Thank you for the update from Dottie (she was real helpful and certainly rates high for customer satisfaction).
I feel somewhat vindicated knowing that this is a problem and that Kahr is looking into it...that's the kind of response that customers want to hear...not some BS excuse. Kudos for Kahr!
I too, have nothing but good things to say about Kahr customer service. And specifically Dottie. I have not dealt with Stefan, about whom I have read nothing but good stuff.
Anyway, I wonder if the peening could be caused somewhat by the design of the barrel hood. What I mean is that the actual ledge which engages the front edge of the ejection port is quite narrow. There is less hood to distribute the rearward velocity and unlocking trauma when the gun fires. The hood is designed like a sort of dull point and bears the brunt of the abuse of cycling on a small area...certainly smaller than on traditional squared-chamber locking designs. Just a thought.
TowGunChuck
08-03-2005, 12:56
I agree that Kahr customer service is great. This time Dottie suggested I just send in the slide assembly, and that "If it fails to work this time, I will give you a choice of any other model gun you prefer."
I don't know exactly what is causing the problem, but since the barrel is cammed into engagement with the slide by the slide stop pin, seems to me that a slight variation in location of the slide stop pin could prevent full engagement of the barrel with the slide. In other words, the barrel, frame, and slide might need to be fitted as a unit.
On the other hand, Bandit99 reports that a new slide assembly alone solved his problem, which seems inconsistent with that theory. But maybe his new barrel differs dimensionally from the earlier one enough to keep the problem from occurring.
I'll send back the slide assembly and see what happens.
john from md
08-05-2005, 18:38
I would suggest that, when the peening starts to slow slide operation, you send it back. I waited and kept using my PM9 and eventually had an out of battery event. This caused the side panel and mag to blow out and cut my hand. The reason for this is that the headspace opens as the barrel hood is peened. You can tell if your headspace is increasing by moving the barrel in a front to back motion. You should not have any movement in a normal barrel.
Kahr replaced my gun but I sold it as I lost confidence in the PM9. I have since purchased a P9 as I have not seen the same problems with them that the PM9 is having.
Regards,
Originally posted by john from md
Kahr replaced my gun but I sold it as I lost confidence in the PM9. I have since purchased a P9 as I have not seen the same problems with them that the PM9 is having.
Regards,
Isn't the area of the hood of the chamber on the bigger sized Kahrs wider? Please read my theory above.
john from md
08-06-2005, 15:53
I suppose that is possible. I have not compared the larger pistols with the PM. I always thought that it was a poor alloy used for the barrels. I do know that it is a random thing. I know people who use +P+ ammo all the time and their PM's never peen. On the other hand, I only used Winchester white box and had two barrels peen.
Go figure.
I just bought a used P9 off Gun Broker to give the lite Kahr another chance. I hope it works out.
Michigun
08-08-2005, 06:25
Neither here nor there really, but neither of my PM9’s ever showed peening… each had at least 200 rounds of +p+ & over 1,500 rounds of +p ammo through them. I’ve never seen peening in any of the other PM9’s I come into contact with frequently.
It’s gotta be more miss then hit.
rattler357
08-09-2005, 23:36
I purchased a new Kahr PM9 recently. After 150 rounds of winchester white box fmjs, I noticed a ridge was developing on the hood of the barrel where it contacts the slide. This ridge became so pronounced that the barrel would not lock into the slide. After further examination, I noticed if I removed the slide assembly and removed the recoil rod spring assembly, you could slide the barrel back and forth .25 millimters when it was supposed to be locked up to the slide.
I have enclosed a picture showing the excessive amount of play between the barrel hood and the slide assembly. Kahr got back with me very fast and had me send both barrel and slide to them.
The serial number of this gun was in the range of the barrel recall, by the way.
Michigun
08-10-2005, 07:01
GREAT picture rattler357! (Got any digital cam info for me?)
Originally posted by rattler357
I purchased a new Kahr PM9 recently. After 150 rounds of winchester white box fmjs, I noticed a ridge was developing on the hood of the barrel where it contacts the slide. This ridge became so pronounced that the barrel would not lock into the slide. After further examination, I noticed if I removed the slide assembly and removed the recoil rod spring assembly, you could slide the barrel back and forth .25 millimters when it was supposed to be locked up to the slide.
I have enclosed a picture showing the excessive amount of play between the barrel hood and the slide assembly. Kahr got back with me very fast and had me send both barrel and slide to them.
The serial number of this gun was in the range of the barrel recall, by the way.
Well that sucks...Mine also falls into the said serial number range. I got the barrel buffed and I replaced the recoil assembly...but I have yet to test it. When I do, take a wild guess as to what I will pay close attention.
Good luck man...and please wish me luck.
Anyone seeing this on the MK9? Or is it only on the PM9? It's gotta be in the QC somewhere. Do the barrels differ on the two models? neither of mine has shown any peening, but I'll be looking for it now.
warmrain
08-10-2005, 23:42
Over 3,000 rounds in my MK9 with no sign of this...
TowGunChuck
09-20-2005, 20:30
Following Kahr's instructions I sent the barrel and slide back to the factory. Received it back last week and put 200 rounds through it with no sign of peening. It looks like the problem in my case is solved. So I am back to carrying the PM9 -- leaving the 340PD at home for my wife (she likes the Crimson Trace grips).
According to the Kahr folks this was a barrel-to-slide fit problem. They have provided their operators go/no-go gauges to test for this condition, and say this QA measure has reduced reported problems by "magnitudes". Given this, and the excellent customer service I received, I would not hesitate to recommend the PM9 to anyone seeking a serious pocket pistol.
OnTheRun
09-20-2005, 21:13
Same issue here with a new PM-9. I emailed Dottie and she had me send my slide and barrel back for replacement. Her explanation was the same as the previous posters. It was a shame since the PM-9 was flawless except for the peening after about 250 rounds (mostly of blazer). Still waiting for the return but Kahr customer service, and Dottie in particular has been exceptional. My GF also has a PM-9 that Dottie helped make right.
john from md
09-21-2005, 06:24
After my PM9 peened twice,(replacement barrel and slide too) I swore off Kahr's for a while. However, I got the bug again and decided to try a P9 this time.
I bought an older P9 (well used with no issues)and have put 500 rounds through it with no issues. This pistol is also very accurate to boot!
I really hope they have solved the PM9 problems as it is the ultimate pocket pistol.
cjblackmon
09-21-2005, 08:37
This sucks. I too am experiencing a burr/ridge on the top of the barrel hood of my PM40. It seems sticky when I rack back the slide but firing it is fine. I think it actually failed to go fully into battery (by about 2-3mm) a few times.
Someone mentioned in an earlier post about filing the Hood and the slide a bit to ease mobility. But if I do this, won't it just void out any waranty that Kahr may provide??? It would seem like a doable procedure and probably cure the problem, along with a new recoil spring. Besides my PM40 is my carry piece, I don't want to have to be without it for 2-4 weeks. On the other hand, I wouldn't want them to come back and state that I modified the gun therefore we're not going to repair it at our expense should this not fix the problem. What a dilema...
john from md
09-21-2005, 08:52
The peening that you are experiencing will start to drag on the top inside of the slide. As it gets worse, it will catch on the cutout on the underside of the slide.
I suggest that you send the slide and barrel to Kahr and get a new one as filing is only a temporary fix. Additionally, filing may make cause a excessive headspace problem sooner as you are removing metal from the lockup area.
cjblackmon
09-21-2005, 10:13
Originally posted by john from md
The peening that you are experiencing will start to drag on the top inside of the slide. As it gets worse, it will catch on the cutout on the underside of the slide.
I suggest that you send the slide and barrel to Kahr and get a new one as filing is only a temporary fix. Additionally, filing may make cause a excessive headspace problem sooner as you are removing metal from the lockup area.
Yeah you're right John. I ended up calling Kahr and I spoke with Bryan. He said the same thing that it was only going to get worse. So I'm sending the slide assembly in this afternoon and having them install night sights as well since this is my CCW. Bryan was really helpful in addressing my concerns. I'll let you know how it goes.
I just took a good look at my PM9, purchased new in July with about 700 rounds through it including 100 of CorBon +P. No sign of this problem whatsoever.
The gun has been reliable at every range session except twice where it started to consistently FTB once I got past 150 rounds, no doubt due to dirt - the CorBon seems to foul it up especially bad.
cjblackmon
09-22-2005, 07:49
Originally posted by fjrllc
I just took a good look at my PM9, purchased new in July with about 700 rounds through it including 100 of CorBon +P. No sign of this problem whatsoever.
The gun has been reliable at every range session except twice where it started to consistently FTB once I got past 150 rounds, no doubt due to dirt - the CorBon seems to foul it up especially bad.
That's good if it's not happening. It might just be something with the older guns. Just so you know, I bought mine used and it just started happening, when I spoke to Kahr, they didn't flinch about sending me a Return Authorization Code so I can send it in. All they said was "we'll make it right for you". This company has a 5 year warranty on their new products (so their website says). They didn't seem to me, to care how old the gun was, were I got it or anything. I have yet to see a post where that has even been a question. I'm in sales myself, so to deal with a company that would go out of their way to make things right no matter what...Speaks Volumes! I should start up a post for the fun of it "Anyone here ever have less than perfect Kahr customer service?" I'll bet there'll be nothing but a million posts of happy clients!!!!!
cjblackmon
09-26-2005, 14:44
I got a door tag at my house that I had a Fed Ex package waiting for me. Low and behold the beautiful letters KAI. I my slide assembly out on Wednesday the 21st, and got the slip from Fed Ex Friday the 23. No slackers there!!!!! Going to get it today and break it in at the range!!!! Let you know how it goes.
cjblackmon
09-26-2005, 16:57
Got the barrel, went to the range put the PM40 together and lubed it. Shot 100 rounds flawlessly. No jams, unfortunately the barrel is starting to show peening again from where the slide is hitting it. It's not severe but the barrel is only 100 rounds new. I'm not sure what I'm going to do at this point.
john from md
09-26-2005, 20:17
Send it back again until they get it right. You will get a good one eventually. It's too bad they don't do a recall on the batch of bad barrel/slide combinations.
cjblackmon
09-26-2005, 20:31
Originally posted by john from md
Send it back again until they get it right. You will get a good one eventually. It's too bad they don't do a recall on the batch of bad barrel/slide combinations.
Yeah, you're right I probably will. It just sucks for me to go back out of my way to send out the stupid upper assembly again, pay the shipping $36 to overnight it, and the downtime to be without it. I've been carrying my K40, which is a cool carry but I don't want to carry it because it's a collectors piece. So I bought an H&K P2000 for CCW today and when it comes in Wednesday I'll carry it, and send the PM out. I just hate hassles and inconvieniences.
I do love their response time though. I overnighted it to them Last Wednesday I got it back on that Friday. They're are a pleasure to work with, I would just rather not have to deal with them and have a killer gun.
Funny thing was, I put 100 rounds through it, Limp wristed it, shot left hand, shot right hand, rapid fired 5 mags and not one malfunction.
john from md
09-27-2005, 04:46
material failure and you already have a history of their failing to provide a satisfactory replacement part. Call Stephan and as for a return authorization.
cjblackmon
09-27-2005, 07:12
Originally posted by john from md
material failure and you already have a history of their failing to provide a satisfactory replacement part. Call Stephan and as for a return authorization.
Stephan no longer works there. I spoke with Brian Truenow last Wednesday, he was the one that helped me out. I left a message yesterday afternoon. I'll probably talk with them today. My PM looks cool with that fat night sights on it, they have a nice glow when sitting on my nightstand. I was really excited to get it back. I'll let you know what they say.
cjblackmon
09-27-2005, 12:41
I spoke to Brain at Kahr, told him what was going on and he couldn't believe it. I got a new return authorization code for it and I'm sending him the whole gun. I asked him to shoot the hell out of it for me to make sure the problems doesn't happen again. Hell, I don't care if comes back to me in a used state, it'll be broken in and tested. He was a pleasure to talk with and Kahr is handling all of my shipping for me. Even though I'm a little frustrated, it's nice to know that their customer service want to do everything to make their customers happy!!! Even remove cartoons for those easily offended!!!!! LOL
TowGunChuck
12-23-2005, 19:23
Following up. Since receiving the replacement PM9 barrel and slide, I have fired over 800 rouds with no malfunctions whatsoever. So I'm very satisfied.
Originally posted by TowGunChuck
Following up. Since receiving the replacement PM9 barrel and slide, I have fired over 800 rouds with no malfunctions whatsoever. So I'm very satisfied.
Wow, and it only took 3 months?
J/K, I am glad you revived this thread. I see the peening on my wife's PM9 developing. There is considerable play between the barrel hood and slide. The slide has failed to go all the way into battery once when it had almost 200rds in one session without cleaning.
So if I am holding the bare slide in my hand, and insert the barrel in place there should be no fore and aft movement, correct? I am looking to send it back, dont want the wife injured by it. A one week wait is no problem, just toss her a P3AT in the mean time. ;a
john from md
12-26-2005, 22:04
JDB,
You are correct, there should be little or no fore and aft movement with the barrel in the slide. As the peening gets worse, it will case FTF's as the peened area on the barrel hood will start to catch on the oblong machined area under the slide.
I would email Dottie and send it back to Kahr.
Regards,
TowGunChuck
12-27-2005, 10:01
Call for a return authorization number as described in the manual and send barrel and slide to Dottie.
A couple weeks ago I put 280 rounds through the PM9 without cleaning and without a jam, and that was under dusty conditions in the Nevada desert. But of course that was after the barrel/slide replacement.
:elephant:
I'm tickled pink about my new PM9. I even bought it after reading this (and other) forums.
The report is: after 200 white box I've got a shiny spot on the top of the barrel. I don't see peening yet but thanks to all of you if I see it I'll know it and also know what to do about it. Shoots really good, not a single failure of any kind. I just took it out of the box and slathered it up with lube and kept reloading.
Cautiously watching, Jim
I never sent my wife's gun back. She has been shooting it fairly regular with no malfuntions. I have taken it shooting a couple of times. I need to get a feeler guage anyway. One could measure the play exactly and call up Kahr to see if its in spec. or not I would imagine. :)
AZ Traveler
04-05-2006, 08:51
av8or
"Shiny" spots on the barrel are normal. Many of us polish the whole exterior of the barrel so the whole barrel is "Shiny".
Originally posted by AZ Traveler
av8or
"Shiny" spots on the barrel are normal. Many of us polish the whole exterior of the barrel so the whole barrel is "Shiny".
So if it is normal I won't worry about it until I see it hammering a lip or it starts to fail battery.
I might just shine this up too, it is for cc but I want it to be seen if I yank it out. Shucks, they are gonna see the flash anyway just before the brief burning feeling followed by darkness.
Polished my new MK9 elite barrel hood up,feed ramp too, here's a couple of pics. It does seem to make it cycle more smoothly. 550 rounds to date and so far no sign of peening.
MtnDewd
john from md
05-01-2006, 04:34
To the best of my knowledge, the Mk9 never did have a problem with peening. It appears that only the PM9 has a chronic problem with peening of the barrel hood/slide lockup area. After going through three of them, I switched to a P9 and never had the problem. The Mk's have always been reliable but they carry the penalty of extra weight.
I am still hoping that Kahr fixes the PM9 because it is the lightest 9x19 pocket pistol out there.
John from MD
Originally posted by MtnDewd
Here's the other pic.
WOW! Looks like chrome in the pix. What seems to work best for polishing? It looks like it was done on a machine with some kind of rouge.
Thanks av8or!
This particular barrel hood had some pretty deep tool marks on it. Much worse than my K9 & PM9.
Normally, I use 1500 grit wet/dry sand paper to do the initial smoothing/polishing. I use my finger and just stroke the sand paper in one direction along the surface. When it begins to look polished, I finish up with Flitz and a felt bob on a Dremel. It takes a little while with the sand paper, but you can do it while you watch tv or something. Be patient!
The tool marks were so bad on this particular MK9 barrel hood that I had to start with some coarser sandpaper (320) to get the worst of the tool marks smoothed out, then went to the 1500 grit, then the Flitz and Dremel.
I don't advise using anything but a felt bob on the Dremel. I wouldn't try to sand it with any kind of power tool. Even though it would no doubt speed up the process, it would also increase the odds of messing it up!
Hope that helps!
MtnDewd
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