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VICARA
07-24-2005, 12:21
I'm just wondering what are your thoughts on the above subject if a scenario occurs in your own domain.
Are you mentally prepared to shoot somebody? again, if target is/are house-intruder and assuming you have established that bodily-injury and/or damage to property is their goal. Do you intend to give a verbal warning before shooting?

I'm trying to put out here gentleman, a topic I rarely seen discussed: Mental awareness/aspects/readiness of really shooting a human target.

Do you practice at home, visualization technique/room clearing practice/engaging a target from your safe zone i.e. bedroom..etc.

Where do you keep your firearms at night time? (i.e. under the pillow) How fast do you have access to your piece when needed? (consider the term: bagong-gising or biglang nagising) (naalimpungatan ba ang tawag nun?)

Alexii
07-24-2005, 21:16
It helps to prewire oneself ahead of time on which course of action to take should we find ourselves "in the dark".

For me, it's what in the hands of the intruder/s that will determine the shoot/no shoot response. This does not however, preclude the fact of multiple intruders which is more likely these days. Whether armed or not, this constitutes a lethal response in my book. Disparity of force.

I strongly believe that room clearing is for duty-bound SWAT type operatives only. Unless there are loved ones inside the room who needed evacuating, clearing rooms isn't worth the risk. Better move in a position of advantage where you can mount an effective defense (read: cover).

Beside me on my bed is a war bag: Beretta 92FS with 18 rounds of JHP, spare mag, Surefire M2, OC spray, cellphone.

YMMV

isuzu
07-24-2005, 21:59
The best way to prevent shooting an intruder or intruders inside your house is not to let them in (imagine the mess it would create and the trauma your family has to suffer if somebody gets shot inside the house). That means creating an outside perimeter or ring that would discourage intruders from getting inside your house. A fence that you could see what's going on outside of your house, dogs, motion activated lights, alarms and mental preparation of the whole family are some of the deterrents.

In case that perimeter is breached, then, you should be prepared to shoot especially when your family's life is threatened. Conditioning your family in such situations/scenarios are sometimes laughed at by others, but this plays a big factor. Assigning a member of a family to do a specific task when a situation occurs is very helpful. Remember, when panic sets in and somebody in the family gets hostaged, even the best laid plans won't work. Put a bag with all your essentials in a location inaccessible to the intruders and where you could recall immediately even if you have just woke up.

I recall a scenario in the mid 80's in our province where an individual fought at least 50 rebels who wanted to overrun and burn his residence in their farm. He got hold of a carbine, and his sister was beside him with a bag full of ammo. His sister reloaded the magazines that he emptied. They constantly shifted positions so 1) the rebels weren't able to pinpoint their exact location inside the house; and 2) the rebels thought there was more than one individual retaliating.

An electric fence also deterred the rebels from entering their compound. He was able to neutralize some rebels who breached the electric fence.

His sister was hit in the butt, but didn't falter and was able to finish the task given to her by his brother. That person was traumatized by the incident for a long time, but the whole family survived the attack.

mc_oliver
07-25-2005, 01:38
I think the question you should be asking is; Do you want to survive?

If the answer is Yes, then do whatever it takes.

;)

bertud ng putik
07-25-2005, 02:00
pag nasa bakuran mo na, shoot him. wag mo lang patayin. birahin mo sa hita.

mikol
07-25-2005, 02:16
Originally posted by bertud ng putik
pag nasa bakuran mo na, shoot him. wag mo lang patayin. birahin mo sa hita.

dilikado yan sa resbak dri pag-naka labas na sa huyo yang mga yan, tsaka magastos yan. dapat double tap sa ulo tsaka sa dibdib para dina makabalik pa. ;f ;) ;) di ba bosing mc_o? ;e

Kiddo
07-25-2005, 04:52
dont shoot to injure. dont shoot to kill. shoot to stop the threat.

mikey177
07-25-2005, 05:24
Originally posted by VICARA
... Do you intend to give a verbal warning before shooting?

The only verbal warning any intruders are going to get from me is the sound of my shotgun being racked.

Other than that, I second what Alexii and Isuzu said about the need for preparedness and conditioning. Have a plan, but also be prepared to improvise if things get hairy.

9MX
07-25-2005, 06:18
whateva!

always keep in mind the 3 cardinal rules of self defense

1. there must be an unlawful aggression
2. reasonable necessity of the means employed to prevent or repel
2. no provocation on your part

all 3 rules must be satisfied for your action to qualify as self defense.

friendly reminder: let us always keep in mind the GT rules, as the topic of this thread is sensitive.;)

SMSTRICK
07-25-2005, 06:36
If a man gets into my home at night,....I am not going to ask him what he wants. I will protect my life,...as well as the lives and wellfare of my family. The man dies,....period. The way that I see it,..he would have had more time to plan a break in to my home than I would have to do what may be neccesary to defend it. In such a scenerio,...he would be suffering the consequences for his actions. (justice)......Even if he were to not be armed with a gun,...he would at least be found with a pair of finger nail clippers....If this were to happen,...I could always have it put into the report that I was in fear of being hijacked.

atmarcella
07-25-2005, 07:09
my rifle is always at my bedside inside a rifle bag, i can access it in less than 5secs., my motto is to shoot first, ask questions later:)

9MX
07-25-2005, 08:34
Originally posted by atmarcella
my rifle is always at my bedside inside a rifle bag, i can access it in less than 5secs., my motto is to shoot first, ask questions later:)

oist rifle na yan ha, masakit yan ;f (its gonna hurt ;f)

Allegra
07-25-2005, 08:41
I'm rrally more woried about missing my target

atmarcella
07-25-2005, 09:00
Originally posted by 9MX
oist rifle na yan ha, masakit yan ;f (its gonna hurt ;f)

naka bili pko sa gunshow sa pascual ng parang clip w/c enable you to clip another magazine to the mag already inserted, i forgot what its called, w/c means me 60rnds ako at my disposal hehehehehehehe kung matalo pko ewan kna^8

9MX
07-25-2005, 09:25
Originally posted by atmarcella
hehehehehehehe kung matalo pko ewan kna^8

wanna get a red bandana? ;f
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/9MX/Competition%20Gear/RAMBO.jpg

VICARA
07-25-2005, 12:22
When i put up the question on this thread, I'm a bit cautious because, as 9mx mentioned, its a little sensitive. On occasions, when an acquaintance learn that I'm into this sport, a blend of gasp and roll of the eyes is what I get. Most of the time, I have to change the conversation to something else because I know I cannot let them understand my conviction about the issue.

How much more the likelihood of shooting somebody even to defend yourself, family or property.

One story I like to share: early last year in Vegas, theres this big story that ticked some nerve on both sides of the gun debate. A guy came home to an intruder in his own home. The 2 BGs were surprised by the homeowner in the middle of scouring the house. They beat the hell out of the poor homeowner, fortunately, hindi nila tinuluyan yung mama. Nakaya pa niyang nakuha yung baril niya sa bedroom and here's the catch: he chased them out on the street, outside his house and unload his fury/frustration killing one instantly and wounding the other. To make the story short, dinala sila pareho (suspect and victim) to the same hospital, recovered and released. Here comes the investigation. There were court scenes and you know what happened? The homeowner victim was sentenced to 5 years in jail!

Also an item to consider is the kind of ammo for your home defense. Pag tumagos at matamaan ang mga neighbors, 'masakit' din yun.

Kidding aside, all the postings above makes sense. Alexii and isuzu, i like your 'preparedness' angle. I guess the event that triggers a deadly response is the weapon in the hands of the intruder/s. Say, multiple trespassers, but only one has a visible weapon. I have to assume they are all armed and all has to be dealt accordingly.

Ini-imagine ko lang kung ano ang physcological(tama ba spelling nun?) impact after you shoot somebody. Dead, I mean.

vega
07-25-2005, 15:23
Originally posted by bertud ng putik
pag nasa bakuran mo na, shoot him. wag mo lang patayin. birahin mo sa hita.
There's no such thing as "shoot to maim." I suggest try IPSC, pag pressure ang shooter minsan double mike sa target, what more if you just want to shoot the legs. Puede pa sa itlog.;)

vega

9MX
07-25-2005, 18:51
Originally posted by VICARA
Ini-imagine ko lang kung ano ang physcological(tama ba spelling nun?) impact after you shoot somebody. Dead, I mean.

psychological

:)

your story is very similar to what happened with sonny parsons (1st encounter), charges filed against him were dismissed though

isuzu
07-25-2005, 19:43
Originally posted by VICARA
...and here's the catch: he chased them out on the street, outside his house and unload his fury/frustration. Here comes the investigation. There were court scenes and you know what happened? The homeowner victim was sentenced to 5 years in jail!


He got the 5 years because he went out of the confines of his residence to shoot his assailants. His position changed from defensive to an agressive one. Sadly, the axe will fall on you if you shoot somebody who's fleeing the engagement.

I wouldn't blame him for shooting the two assailants after what has been done to him. But the law is the law, especially in the US.

mikey177
07-25-2005, 19:49
Vicara,

Would you happen to know if the other BG that broke into the guy's home also did jail time? It would really be a shame if the homeowner served time but the crook who beat the guy up got off scot free :(

Mang Danny
07-25-2005, 21:34
Possible scenarios:

The BG would probably serve probation if no record. He might file a civil suit against the homeowner for using exessive force and win.;g

The dead BG's heirs would sue the homeowner for wrongful death and ruin him financially.

TV producers will sign them up for a TV movie.

doctabako
07-25-2005, 22:40
Originally posted by vega
There's no such thing as "shoot to maim." I suggest try IPSC, pag pressure ang shooter minsan double mike sa target, what more if you just want to shoot the legs. Puede pa sa itlog.;)

vega

Ditto.
If you are ever in a situation to draw your gun and fire at an assailant, stopping him in his tracks until he is no longer a threat should be your primary goal. As such you should hit center of mass(COM) shots(head shots if you are proficient) until he drops(maimed or dead). Worrying about killing him or the legalities involved while you are in the situation can get you killed(i.e. trying/aiming for non-fatal wounds to the limbs). Bear in mind that a BG has no such compassion for you ;)

VICARA
07-25-2005, 22:51
unfortunately, wala na akong balita nun. But I would think the possible scenarios presented by Mang Danny is not a far fetch. That's why lawyers are in such a high demand in the US. Check the yellow pages and see how a big chunk of the book is all on letter L.
Have you heard stories about stupid burglars who, after entering a house got an 'accident' and then sue the homeowner? Version ng akyat-bahay 'to na dumaan sa bathroom window. He jumped from the window and got his foot stucked on the toilet bowl. Literally, stucked for couple of hours until the homeowner called paramedics. They have to break the bowl, and well, the BG got a sprain ankle. Akalain mo ba? he sued the homeowner!
O yung another not so smart thief na naiwanan sa loob ng garage when the homeowner went out of town for a 3-day holiday. Nagtago siguro thinking he can access the main house after everybodys gone. Well, he was trapped for 3 days with no food and drink. When he was caught after the homeowner found him dehyrated, he complained about missing drinking water and bathroom in the garage. He also sue the homeowner!
Ganon ka-torpe and mga ibang BGs dito. I'm wondering if those homeowners just shoot them on the spot since they are inside their property. Surely they're not there to sell a Readers Digest subscription or manghiram ng baguong or kamatis.

nrmcolt
07-26-2005, 00:22
Originally posted by doctabako
Ditto.
If you are ever in a situation to draw your gun and fire at an assailant, stopping him in his tracks until he is no longer a threat should be your primary goal. As such you should hit center of mass(COM) shots(head shots if you are proficient) until he drops(maimed or dead). Worrying about killing him or the legalities involved while you are in the situation can get you killed(i.e. trying/aiming for non-fatal wounds to the limbs). Bear in mind that a BG has no such compassion for you ;)
+1

mikey177
07-26-2005, 00:36
Yes, Vicara, I've heard about crooks like those and they just make my blood boil. The nerve of them to sue the homeowner. Anyway, lets hope none of ever has to cross paths with one of those BGs :(

darwin25
07-26-2005, 00:43
Originally posted by SMSTRICK
The way that I see it,..he would have had more time to plan a break in to my home than I would have to do what may be neccesary to defend it.

I disagree. Its your home. You know it better than anyone else. If you haven't yet planned how to defend your home in such different scnearios, now is the time.

Have a battleplan. Home defense is best fought from a fixed position. You are most vulnerable when you are on the move. Don't try to go out of your house to check out what's happening. Give the BG's a chance to get out of your house but give verbal warnings only behind cover. Gunfights happen when the BG's feel they are cornered and has no way out. Know the chokepoints in your house. If your house has bathrooms in each rooms, train your wife and kids to immediately go to the bathroom when they hear or wake up from a commotion. If not, train them to hide under their beds.

And train yourself on the execution of your battleplan. The BG's are most likely experienced. Whatever they're doing, they must have already done it before at least once. It may just be a repeat or maybe a refinement of tactics they have succesfully employed before. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE them. They have contingencies and rest assured they are prepared to use them if forced to, or even if they just hell like to..

atmarcella
07-26-2005, 03:46
Originally posted by 9MX
wanna get a red bandana? ;f
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/9MX/Competition%20Gear/RAMBO.jpg

hehehehehe tsong m60 naman ang dala nun;f

vega
07-26-2005, 08:33
Originally posted by VICARA

Have you heard stories about stupid burglars who, after entering a house got an 'accident' and then sue the homeowner?

O yung another not so smart thief na naiwanan sa loob ng garage when the homeowner went out of town for a 3-day holiday. Nagtago siguro thinking he can access the main house after everybodys gone. Well, he was trapped for 3 days with no food and drink. When he was caught after the homeowner found him dehyrated, he complained about missing drinking water and bathroom in the garage. He also sue the homeowner!

I would not call them stupid if they won the case. ;)
Just like the fast-food coffee complaint, every one was calling the complainant stupid but the person was awarded a lot of money.

Anyway, back to the issue on hand, always have a battle plan. My family would know what to do.

vega

9MX
07-26-2005, 08:51
for some unkown reason, i'm reminded of jodie foster's movie,"the panic room." vega, are these type of rooms really popular there? i bet they're expensive

SMSTRICK
07-26-2005, 09:50
Originally posted by darwin25
I disagree. Its your home. You know it better than anyone else. If you haven't yet planned how to defend your home in such different scnearios, now is the time.

Have a battleplan. Home defense is best fought from a fixed position. You are most vulnerable when you are on the move. Don't try to go out of your house to check out what's happening. Give the BG's a chance to get out of your house but give verbal warnings only behind cover. Gunfights happen when the BG's feel they are cornered and has no way out. Know the chokepoints in your house. If your house has bathrooms in each rooms, train your wife and kids to immediately go to the bathroom when they hear or wake up from a commotion. If not, train them to hide under their beds.

And train yourself on the execution of your battleplan. The BG's are most likely experienced. Whatever they're doing, they must have already done it before at least once. It may just be a repeat or maybe a refinement of tactics they have succesfully employed before. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE them. They have contingencies and rest assured they are prepared to use them if forced to, or even if they just hell like to..

I agree and respect where you are coming from. When I made my original statement,...my point was that a man who breaks into someones home deserves what he gets. The intruder is on the offensive once he makes the choice to enter. In such a situation,...I will either grab my Glock 22 with M3X light (at my bedside), or my 12 ga shotgun loaded with 00Buck. I will not put my family's lives at risk by grabing a can of mase. I will grab a firearm and shoot to kill....The intruder has time to choose wheather he will break in or not . He has to evaluate the risks and consequences for his actions before entering. If he were to enter, and I am aware of it,...the adrenaline kicks in and then its all about fight or flight mode. For me,...its all about fight because its my home and my family present. My reaction to a intruder would be limted to two choices,.12ga or Glock. If I blow him away,...it is the end result of HIS bad choices and his (Russian roulet) style of risk taking.
When it comes to having a plan ,...I am in total agreement. Not only in home defence , but thinking through senerios that can happen outside the home. I get a lot of insight from the arcticles which appear in "Combat Handguns." They give me great insight as to how I can better prepare myself while I am out in the real world. The increased awareness of my surroundings while about my day is the greatest fruit of reading and learning from real life expieriences of others.

vega
07-26-2005, 11:04
Originally posted by 9MX
for some unkown reason, i'm reminded of jodie foster's movie,"the panic room." vega, are these type of rooms really popular there? i bet they're expensive
It's only in the movies, panic room is where you totally panic and go mad.
Seriously, I don't know if there are such kind of rooms here. We've been house hunting and we also look at old houses and nobody mention anything. I guess I need to measure the rooms.

vega

jerrytrini
07-26-2005, 11:15
The Panic Room was a good movie. That type of room may exist, however, very rich people where I work, would rather have live security guards to monitor the CCTV, telephones, alarms etc.

mikol
07-26-2005, 11:28
Originally posted by vega
panic room is where you totally panic and go mad.
or maybe shoot yourself in the process instead of shooting those BG's. ;) ;) ;e

mikey177
07-26-2005, 18:51
Another movie that featured a house with elaborate security features and its own version of a panic room was "Hostage" starring Bruce Willis. The panic room in this movie, instead of being made of concrete all over, had one wall that was plexiglass or some other bullet-resistant material, so you could see your adversary through the glass. It must be good to have a large budget for building a house and being able to install neat home-defense doodads like that.

isuzu
07-26-2005, 18:56
Originally posted by doctabako
As such you should hit center of mass(COM) shots(head shots if you are proficient) until he drops(maimed or dead). Worrying about killing him or the legalities involved while you are in the situation can get you killed(i.e. trying/aiming for non-fatal wounds to the limbs). Bear in mind that a BG has no such compassion for you ;)

Happened here in the winter and it was shown on TV! A man attacked and stabbed his wife and mother-in-law whom he was separated for quite a while. Luckily, the wife and mother-in-law escaped their house together with the ex-couple's child, who, luckily was unhurt.

The police were called and ordered the man who came out of the house to surrender. After repeated demands, which later included a Pakistani-speaking police officer to talk to him, he did not heed the orders of the police to surrender. He was still armed with a knife, and tried to lunge at the officer (the distance was about 7 meters). The officer shot him once in the chest (the police here carry Glock 22s with Gold Dot 180 gr. as their ammo). The assailant immediately collapsed and died later at the hospital.

The Pakistani community cried foul over the police's handling of the case, but according to the police, the assailant was: 1) armed and dangerous, and deadly force was needed to neutralize him; and 2) the police is trained to shoot at the center of mass of the assailant. That means, if you get maimed, you're lucky.;) What the police is driving at is that they shoot to end the situation as fast as possible, thus preventing the assailant to do more harm.

toxic
07-27-2005, 05:24
Originally posted by mikol
dilikado yan sa resbak dri pag-naka labas na sa huyo yang mga yan, tsaka magastos yan. dapat double tap sa ulo tsaka sa dibdib para dina makabalik pa. ;f ;) ;) di ba bosing mc_o? ;e

Shoot now pay later plan, yap mas mura kesa pa ospital ka pa at mademanda.

mikol
07-27-2005, 07:45
Originally posted by toxic
Shoot now pay later plan, yap mas mura kesa pa ospital ka pa at mademanda.
yup your right toxic, shoot now and pay later.:cool:
besides, no one from our place dares to scale our peremeter.(kahit na yung mga tambay pa doon, they know me very well <c>b ;I)
so probably those perps that tried doing it before(when i'm not around) might be from neighboring areas o dayo lang talaga doon samin. Hope they'll do it again during my holidays. ;f ;) ;)

VICARA
07-27-2005, 11:37
atmarcella, papano ba mag-insert ng graphics (i.e. jpg) sa body ng posting mo? like what u did with the red bandana art work.

I tried copy-paste but the paste command is grayed when i right-click the edit area.

mikey177
07-27-2005, 18:41
Vicara,

the image that you will post must be located somewhere on the Internet, and not just on your computer's hard drive. You can sign up at an image hosting web site such as PhotoBucket and upload your images there. Afterward, just use the "IMG" command when you post a new message to insert the URL of the image, like this:

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/miramax_films/hostage/bruce_willis/hostage3.jpg

Otherwise, you can include the image as an attachment, but people will only be able to see it if they click the link.

VICARA
07-27-2005, 23:23
thank you mikey177. I will register first at photobucket and do some test. Pag na perfect ko, mag-oopen ako ng new thread.

thank you din po sa PM ni Judge. thank you sir.

3kings
10-12-2005, 01:03
Originally posted by 9MX
whateva!

always keep in mind the 3 cardinal rules of self defense

1. there must be an unlawful aggression
2. reasonable necessity of the means employed to prevent or repel
2. no provocation on your part

all 3 rules must be satisfied for your action to qualify as self defense.

friendly reminder: let us always keep in mind the GT rules, as the topic of this thread is sensitive.;)

very true indeed!

and when that situation presents itself, i will not have second thoughts on pulling the trigger.

bikethief
10-12-2005, 09:08
Useful insights on this thread! I'd probably go for a loud verbal warning first and then attempt to id the BG and see if he/she is armed. This is assuming I have good tactical/positional advantage over the said BG.(ex: BG is in the kitchen and I have cover behind wall 25ft. away with clear line of sight) If the perp is within 10ft. (ex: already in my bedroom) or is near any of my loved ones then to heck with warnings! I'll shoot before he has the chance to harm anyone. Ex: Perp is picking the lock on your daughters bedroom door. The few seconds you hesitate might be the few seconds he needs to get in there and take your daughter hostage. Levels of escalation and preparedness lang yan eh. And quick decision making! Mental drills are just as impt. as live fire drills IMHO. When in doubt..... well... just avoid being in doubt altogether nalang. ;)

charlie-xray
10-15-2005, 06:10
I like the way you put it, preparedness and decision talaga. Second thoughts could get you harmed or worse killed.


Originally posted by bikethief
Useful insights on this thread! I'd probably go for a loud verbal warning first and then attempt to id the BG and see if he/she is armed. This is assuming I have good tactical/positional advantage over the said BG.(ex: BG is in the kitchen and I have cover behind wall 25ft. away with clear line of sight) If the perp is within 10ft. (ex: already in my bedroom) or is near any of my loved ones then to heck with warnings! I'll shoot before he has the chance to harm anyone. Ex: Perp is picking the lock on your daughters bedroom door. The few seconds you hesitate might be the few seconds he needs to get in there and take your daughter hostage. Levels of escalation and preparedness lang yan eh. And quick decision making! Mental drills are just as impt. as live fire drills IMHO. When in doubt..... well... just avoid being in doubt altogether nalang. ;)

bass one
10-18-2005, 03:25
It's only in the movies, panic room is where you totally panic and go mad. Here in Singapore, a House Shelter (room actually) is a regular part in all modern housing projects. It is basically a room in each housing unit be it condominium or tenement, with built-in exhaust system and some powerpoints(outlets) and a bombproof metal door.

vimanas
10-19-2005, 17:16
when I was younger, there was a shooting incident in our former neighborhood. Gunshots were heard late in the evening. The father accidentally shot his son, who was sneaking into their house. The son was a junkie by the way. The son survived a gunshot wound in the thigh. The police didnt file any charges and considered it as a domestic problem.