Ranger T Ammo: 147-gr. versus 127-gr. +P+

[147 Grain]

After firing thousands of rounds into testing media, Winchester's latest Ranger LE Catalog shows the following data on 9mm Ranger T's in 147-gr. and 127-gr. +P+ (page 19):

Quote:

Gelatin
147-gr. = 13.9 / .65
127-gr. = 12.3 / .64

4-Ply Denim
147-gr. = 14.5 / .66
127-gr. = 12.5 / .68

Heavy Cloth
147-gr. = 14.0 / .66
127-gr. = 12.2 / .68

Wallboard
147-gr. = 15.0 / .67
127-gr. = 12.1 / .66

Plywood
147-gr. = 14.8 / .62
127-gr. = 12.0 / .68

Auto Glass
147-gr = 10.8 / .52
127-gr. = 9.4 / .48

Unquote

Call (800) 356-2666 and ask for a Ranger T technician at extention 2897 or 3345 for more similar data with similar outcomes.

Both rounds are outstanding, but the +P+ gets people's attention more so than the standard 147-grainer.

You be the judge, but for me and my house, we'll stick with 147-gr. loads.

[147 Grain]

P.S. Just because a round sounds a little louder and recoils more, doesn't make it more effective in stopping the BG. Be careful as subjective perceptions can fool yah! ;b

[9mm +p+]

I'll keep my 127's thanks!

[Dandapani]

no, No, NO, +++++P+++++ has to be better, it's got so much more energy to dump, the BG vaporizes!!!! ;z ;a ;z

[9mm +p+]

Originally posted by dmobrien2001
no, No, NO, +++++P+++++ has to be better, it's got so much more energy to dump, the BG vaporizes!!!! ;z ;a ;z Gee you know what they say about opinions, you carry what you want and I'll carry what I want. I was forced to carry 147's in my issued 9mm for most of the mid 90's and I've seen it in action, have you??? We carried 127's before the switch to the 40 and they performed head and shoulders above the mighty 147!! My choice comes from experience not what I read and see online!;B

[147 Grain]

That was then; this is now!

147-gr.'s perform much better after years of redesign.

Keep smiling! ;e

[9mm +p+]

Originally posted by 147 Grain
That was then; this is now!

147-gr.'s perform much better after years of redesign.

Keep smiling! ;e 147 gr., I wasn't knocking your choice, if it works for you use it! I won't ever trust a 147 gr. 9mm for anything other than paper punching, armchair commandos flaming my opinion irritates me, hence the tone of my reply. You're correct I'm sure that the 147's have come a long way since then, and are adequate for civilian self defense but I don't feel that they are ok for LE as you might have to shoot auto glass /sheetmetal where the higher velocity of the 127 would aid in penetrating the above mentioned materials. Bottomline is you carry what you feel confident in, because the life you save may be your own.

[147 Grain]

I agree that everyone should feel comfortable with what they carry.

Many PD's are upgrading to heavy for caliber bullets that do much better through glass and metal than "the higher velocity of the [medium for caliber bullets] would aid in penetrating the above mentioned materials."

Example from opening post:

Wallboard
147-gr. = 15.0 / .67
127-gr. = 12.1 / .66

Plywood
147-gr. = 14.8 / .62
127-gr. = 12.0 / .68

Auto Glass
147-gr = 10.8 / .52
127-gr. = 9.4 / .48

The slower heavier bullet wins every time over the lighter faster rounds.

[straightblast]

Is there a reasonably priced source for the 147 grain stuff? For non-LE? thanks

[147 Grain]

straightblast:

See the Classified Section for Ranger T sources.

[147 Grain]

More objective Ranger T Testing Data comparing 9mm 124-gr. +P (RA9124TP) @ 1,180 fps / 127-gr. +P+ (RA9TA) @ 1,250 fps / 147-gr. (RA9T) @ 990 fps, and 357 Sig 125-gr. (RA357SIGT) @ 1,350 fps:

Gelatin
9mm: 124-gr. = 12.2 & .70
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.3 & .64
9mm: 147-gr. = 13.9 & .65
357Sig 125gr. = 10.9 & .63

4-Ply Denim
9mm: 124-gr. = 13.9 & .67
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.5 & .68
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.5 & .66
357Sig 125gr. = 12.1 & .66

Heavy Cloth
9mm: 124-gr. = 13.3 & .68
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.2 & .68
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.0 & .66
357Sig 125gr. = 10.7 & .69

Source: Winchester's 2005 LE Catalog (page 19).

[hotpig]

Originally posted by 9mm +p+
I was forced to carry 147's in my issued 9mm for most of the mid 90's and I've seen it in action, have you??? We carried 127's before the switch to the 40 and they performed head and shoulders above the mighty 147!! ;B


His comparison is pretty dated,but the 127+P+ is a good round, Even in the old Ranger SXT (RA9SXTP)design.

[918v]

Originally posted by 9mm +p+
147 gr., I wasn't knocking your choice, if it works for you use it! I won't ever trust a 147 gr. 9mm for anything other than paper punching, armchair commandos flaming my opinion irritates me, hence the tone of my reply. You're correct I'm sure that the 147's have come a long way since then, and are adequate for civilian self defense but I don't feel that they are ok for LE as you might have to shoot auto glass /sheetmetal where the higher velocity of the 127 would aid in penetrating the above mentioned materials. Bottomline is you carry what you feel confident in, because the life you save may be your own.

Actually, the 147 does better against both sheetmetal and glass due to its higher sectional density.

[9mm +p+]

Originally posted by 918v
Actually, the 147 does better against both sheetmetal and glass due to its higher sectional density. Not true, velocity is the key to punching hard surfaces not SD, try shooting steel plates at 100 yds with a 500 gr 458 WM and a 22-250 55 gr FMJ. The 22-250 will punch the 458 will not! I've done it! As I said earlier if you like the 147's carry them, I don't and I carry the 127's exclusively, the 147 9mm performs much like a 38 special +p it's ok for defense but there are better loads out there. For serious social problems where the longguns stay home I carry my 10mm or a 357 mag. Everyone has their own opinion on this subject and I've stated mine, I'm out.

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by 9mm +p+
Not true, velocity is the key to punching hard surfaces not SD, try shooting steel plates at 100 yds with a 500 gr 458 WM and a 22-250 55 gr FMJ. The 22-250 will punch the 458 will not! I've done it! As I said earlier if you like the 147's carry them, I don't and I carry the 127's exclusively, the 147 9mm performs much like a 38 special +p it's ok for defense but there are better loads out there. For serious social problems where the longguns stay home I carry my 10mm or a 357 mag. Everyone has their own opinion on this subject and I've stated mine, I'm out.

We are not comparing rifle rounds here. Look at the data, the 147gr outpenetrates the 127gr. Even through hard barriers.

[918v]

And the 22-250 is going twice as fast.

And auto sheetmetal is very, very thin.

147s are superior to 127s when shooting through auto glass.

But, 127s are highly refined rounds. I would not feel undergunned with them, but I like 147's for less muzzle flash and the 2 additional inches of penetration.

[Libertas]

Originally posted by 9mm +p+
Gee you know what they say about opinions, you carry what you want and I'll carry what I want. I was forced to carry 147's in my issued 9mm for most of the mid 90's and I've seen it in action, have you??? We carried 127's before the switch to the 40 and they performed head and shoulders above the mighty 147!! My choice comes from experience not what I read and see online!;B

The newer iterations of the 9mm 147 gr JHP are worlds better than those early developed ones.

[spcwes]

So based on most of the post in favor of the 9mm penetration is the only thing that matters when you talk about bullet performance?

I am not flaming or arguing, but generally curious. Try and not bring up perceived recoil or muzzle flash. Nor the cost of shooting 9mms. None of that concerns me as I might be strong enough to handle more powerful handguns than people that buy a 9mm for that purpose. I might also be able buy quality ammo that does not have enough muzzle flash to worry about and have enough money to shoot as much it as I want.

Let’s keep it simple and answer the question, is the 147gr 9mm hp penetrating around 12" to 14" all you base the bullets performance on?

To me, that is all the round does good, but that is just my opinion.

[Coffindodger!]

If bullet penetration was all that mattered I would carry 124gr. 9mm NATO. Oh that's right, I do sometimes! ;f

The 127gr. +P+ is the superior round in performance and function IMO and has been my favorite round for years now. I was surprised at some of the expansion numbers of the 147gr. Ranger though. I guess I never looked at the numbers that closely in the LE Catalog.

The 127gr. will shoot flatter and tend to create nastier wounds than the 147gr., but yes the 147 may penetrate more 2X4's. I don't buy defense ammo to shoot through 2X4's.

[spcwes]

Well, I think most of the hype around the 147gr 9mm is that most are on the thought process that no handgun bullets do more damage and are no better than any other. That unless you reach speeds in excess of 2000fps you can’t do any better with handgun bullets in general.

They base this on what they see in Gel and studies done. There is a new group of people that are conducting a study that revolves around speed in handgun bullets and is refuting that there is no difference. Under the Handgun—Ammunition--357sig VS 9MM on AR15.com David Courtney one of the guys in the group has made a few comments about it. It has me pretty excited to learn more.

Most people, especially ones that hunt with handguns already know there is a difference in handguns that have tremendous speed vs. ones that do not. But even with what I and so many have seen with our own eyes they will tell you you’re wrong never having seen it for themselves.

I say do your own testing and decided for your selves. You may not be able to do the exact same as the FBI gel test or so on but there are several you can do.

Coffin, I agree the 127+p+ was my choice for a couple reasons, one is the Ranger T HP. I think it and the Gold Dot are the best on the market and since there was not a Gold Dot +p+ in the same bullet weight I decided to go with the Ranger T.

NYPD is having some real good results with their 124 +P Gold Dot as well. I know there are agencies using the 147 Ranger but I have not run across one yet. Oh well, it still pokes a hole.

[MPG1737]

spcwes, I suggest you look at all the agencies using 9mm, then see how many are using 147gr JHP's. You will be surprised.

Also, there are no handguns that produce "tremendous velocity" (save for the .460 S&W.)

Also, the 147gr 9mm DoubleTap load is anticipated to go 1125fps. From my longslide I expect 1200fps. That's faster than many 124gr loads.

[MPG1737]

"The 127gr. will shoot flatter and tend to create nastier wounds than the 147gr., but yes the 147 may penetrate more 2X4's. I don't buy defense ammo to shoot through 2X4's."

Do you have any facts to back up those statements?

[spcwes]

There is tremendous velocity when you talk handgun loads. May not be rifle speeds but yea, there are faster ones. Also I have looked into the 9mm use. I have even called several agencies and asked and I have not even found agencies in my state that issue 9mm's.

I know the LAPD is said to use the 127+p+ down the grapevine so no flaming. I know the NYPD is using the 124gr +p Gold Dot, some 30,000+ strong. I understand what handguns do in the gel and I now have read more of the studies conducted on the effectiveness of handgun bullets.

What Michael Courtney is researching is the pressure wave that travels through the body and how it works. He is using the term PSI that quickly expands into the body which may not do permanent damage but has an effect on the body.

I have shot a many of critters during hunting trips and seasons and faster well designed bullets have more of an effect on an animal. If you want to see proof conduct your own studies, it is a fact that there is something else. I have seen it, and that is a fact. After my next boar hunt I will provide anyone a copy of my tests of handgun ammo testing as well as a copy of my video for no cost, all I will need is a blank tape shipped to me.

I will be taking hopefully over 30 to 40 pigs with handguns of various calibers and ammos but all of them will range from 9mm to 10mm and all between. I will document all kills, on how long it takes till incapacitation as well as wound tracks and bullet performance. I will test speed before each hunt even though not every bullet in the box will produce the same speed it will be close. We have a crew going with us for filming and all animals will be taken closer than 25yrds.

I have hunted pigs with handguns. Took over 30 last time and I have seen that handguns like the 44mag and the 357mag and 45ACP have more of a effect on a pig in terms of destruction of flesh and bone and it drops them faster. The 9mm 147gr was not a good performer on living creatures with good vital shots. The 127+p+ Ranger T out performed it on every shoot. The factory 40 cal rangers did not do so hot and all but the 165gr gold dot and the 180 gold dot did not do so hot either.

There is a difference that is almost predictable. You can normally count on a heavy hitting round to do more in terms of incapacitation of a pig even in handguns, I have seen it and do not really care if a 147gr bullet can get 14” of penetration in gel. It did not do so well on the hunt and will be in all fairness tested again this hunt. So will Mikes load from Double Tap.

Michael has the credentials to back his studies as do all his members. I am waiting for it to be published and if you want to talk with him do so. He has been responding to people on ar15.com. He is quickly making a believer of me.

[Coffindodger!]

Originally posted by MPG1737
"The 127gr. will shoot flatter and tend to create nastier wounds than the 147gr., but yes the 147 may penetrate more 2X4's. I don't buy defense ammo to shoot through 2X4's."

Do you have any facts to back up those statements?

Just common sense. Not saying the penetration part would be 100% accurate every time.

[918v]

Penetration is very important, but not the only criteria.

If round A expands to .65" and penetrates 12" of jello, and round B expands to .55" and penetrates 15" of jello, then I will take round B.

Why?

I am paranoid that one day I may have to shoot through a barricade to hit my target. I want the most reasonable penetration possible. No, I do not want a 124 grain NATO FMJ that will shoot lengthwise through a Grizzly bear, but .55" expansion is adequate and 15" penetration is good enough to penetrate a bicep or deltoid muscle, heart, both lungs, and exit to create sucking wounds as well as massive blood loss. Not all hits are frontal hits, some may be from the side or other angles.

That Miami shootout has been beaten to death, but one fact remains undisputed. Had the round penetrated another 2", it would have pulverized the t***s heart and stopped his final assault that killed two FBI agents.

If they ever market 180 grain bullets for the 9mm that expand to .55" and penetrate 18", I'll take the over the 147s.

[spcwes]

Double Tap has a new 9mm 147 that is getting almost 250fps better than the average 9mm. I would venture to guess that you will get a couple more in's of penetration with this round. The 357sig 147gr bullets will in all likelihood surpass that number by a couple of in's. It is running around 400fps out a 4" barrel better than the 147gr 9mm.

We will see.

[DonGlock26]

Originally posted by Coffindodger!
If bullet penetration was all that mattered I would carry 124gr. 9mm NATO. Oh that's right, I do sometimes! ;f

The 127gr. +P+ is the superior round in performance and function IMO and has been my favorite round for years now. I was surprised at some of the expansion numbers of the 147gr. Ranger though. I guess I never looked at the numbers that closely in the LE Catalog.

The 127gr. will shoot flatter and tend to create nastier wounds than the 147gr., but yes the 147 may penetrate more 2X4's. I don't buy defense ammo to shoot through 2X4's.


FYI:

Winchester has come out with a 124+P RangerT that looks good,too. And, a 124+P bonded JHP.

[FLGlock30]

147grain:

Great numbers on the SXT might have to switch to 147....On that note

I recently picked up some ranger ammo and to my disapointment picked up the 115gr +p+ stuff instead of my regular 127gr. do you have any info on the 115gr round.
I appriciate any input on this round,

I was at the gun show and the excitment of new gun and new ammo got to me...like a kid in a candy store. I should of double checked it before i left. That what i get for being a dumb ;B

[hotpig]

FLGlock30

Here is all that I found on their web site.


http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=RA9115HP&cart=OW1tIEx1Z2VyIFA=

[FLGlock30]

.....any input fella's ,aybe il just start a new post.

[spcwes]

I do not put to much trust in the gel test. I think that its intended purpose of testing how well a bullet performed and how deeply it penetrated has gotten out of hand with everyone’s opinion.

Here is what I know, 10% gel is a good test for penetration in a product that is designed to simulate muscle tissue and this also tests the bullet performance in regards to expansion, weight retention and so on.

What the test misses in regards to shooting a human with the same load is a couple things, one not many humans will have 10" to 14" of muscle tissue to penetrate and even if they did it WILL NOT be as consistent as gel. Second is the bone factoring which the gel has none.

By using the gel people assume that if you get 12" of penetration or over then you’re good and that is fine. I choose to use a bullet that gets close to that or over as well as one that has as much speed as possible.

Forget all the debates over speed and so on and pick from the approved list so to say.

The 147gr 9mm is used by police departments that shoot people and win fights. The NYPD uses the 124gr +p Gold Dot and they shoot people with it and win fights. Several others I have not mentioned use the Gold Dot as well but can't recall.

I think I have heard of several agencies in FL using the 127+p+ Ranger T and having great success with it as a fight stopper.

Pick which one you shoot well and like and go with it, people will argue all day about theirs being better than yours, just pick one.

My personal opinion from my own test on the matter is to choose the largest bullet you can fling the fastest. But, as with the Rangers and Gold Dots bullets, design is more important than any of it. I am not sure about the Rangers but I know the Gold Dot bullet is bonded and with me that is a must.

I think Winchester offers a bonded bullet now but it is not the Ranger T. Make a choice based on what shoots the best and try and get something with a good bullet design and you should be fine.

[sneakyracer]

I find the 147 9mm rounds the easiest to shoot well and quickly.

Also when i practice using popers and steel targets the 147 knocks them down with more authority.

The 115's are pretty marginal imho. Although +p+ 115 must be pretty destructive.