View Full Version : 9mm Outperforms 357 Sig in Ranger T Tests
147 Grain 08-07-2005, 19:17 After firing thousands of rounds into testing ballistic media, Winchester's latest Ranger LE Catalog shows the following data on 357 Sig 125-gr. (RA357SIGT) @ 1,350 fps versus 9mm 147-gr. (RA9T) @ 990 fps (page 19):
Gelatin
357Sig 125gr. = 10.9 & .63
9mm: 147-gr. = 13.9 & .65
4-Ply Denim
357Sig 125gr. = 12.1 & .66
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.5 & .66
Heavy Cloth
357Sig 125gr. = 10.7 & .69
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.0 & .66
Wallboard
357Sig 125gr. = 15.4 & .48
9mm: 147-gr. = 15.0 & .67
Plywood
357Sig 125gr. = 12.2 & .66
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.8 & .62
Auto Glass
357Sig 125gr. = 10.3 & .49
9mm: 147-gr. = 10.8 & .52
Summary:
Looks like the easy recoiling 9mm 147-gr. outperforms the hot & fast 125-gr. Sig despite a 360 fps velocity disadvantage.
147 Grain 08-07-2005, 19:18 Just because a round is louder, recoils plenty more, and has a lot of flash doesn't make it more effective in stopping the BG.
* Shot Placement
* Accurate Rapid Fire
* Bullet Construction / Weight
* Choice of Caliber
Dandapani 08-07-2005, 21:48 ;? ^6 ^c ~2 ~`c
147 Grain 08-08-2005, 00:18 More objective Ranger T Tests comparing 9mm 124-gr. +P (RA9124TP) @ 1,180 fps / 127-gr. +P+ (RA9TA) @ 1,250 fps / 147-gr. (RA9T) @ 990 fps, and 357 Sig 125-gr. (RA357SIGT) @ 1,350 fps:
Gelatin
9mm: 124-gr. = 12.2 & .70
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.3 & .64
9mm: 147-gr. = 13.9 & .65
357Sig 125gr. = 10.9 & .63
4-Ply Denim
9mm: 124-gr. = 13.9 & .67
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.5 & .68
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.5 & .66
357Sig 125gr. = 12.1 & .66
Heavy Cloth
9mm: 124-gr. = 13.3 & .68
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.2 & .68
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.0 & .66
357Sig 125gr. = 10.7 & .69
Source: Winchester's 2005 LE Catalog (page 19).
Steve
P.S. Looks like Winchester's tests show ALL 9mm Ranger loads outperforming the regular Ranger T 357 Sig 125-gr. round.
147 Grain 08-08-2005, 00:57 Long live the Baby (9mm) Sig! ;z ;e :soap:
bruce21b 08-10-2005, 18:22 i take it you like the 147 grain load...
what's not to like?
There is only one other round I would consider carrying in 9mm.
The Gold Dots in 124/127? grain. Good effects on BG's on the street and they are bonded so do better on windshields.
I still carry the 147 Ranger T though, I have little need for windshield shooting.
Robin Brown
Wallygator 08-11-2005, 23:14 Well all of that data tells me nothing except I'll be sticking with the 124 +p Gold Dots I now carry. I will stick with them until I see some data on the Double Tap 147 gr. load.
147 Grain 08-12-2005, 09:59 Ranger Talan Overview (Firearms Tactical):
Winchester Ranger Talon (formerly Black Talon and Ranger SXT) bullet depart from conventional expanding hollow-point bullets. Ranger Talon adds an additional wounding mechanism: cutting.
1. When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder.
Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollow-point bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated.
These lacerations contribute to overall wound severity. If Ranger Talon happens to pass very close to a major cardiovascular structure, instead of merely shoving it aside as it passes by, one of the six claws might be in position to cut the wall of this structure to cause profuse bleeding.
This additional cutting mechanism gives Ranger Talon the potential to be approximately 5% more effective than other expanding bullets of the same caliber. In one out of every 20 shootings, Ranger Talon might make a difference.
In order for Ranger Talon's increased wounding potential to be realized, at least two conditions must be met: 1) the bullet's wound track must pass close enough to a major blood vessel to physically touch it, and 2) one of the talons must be in the right orientation to physically contact the wall of the blood vessel as the bullet rifles past. If one of these two conditions are not met, the wound will be no more severe than any other JHP expanding bullet.
This slight advantage could be just enough to save the life of a police officer who has to shoot a psychotic, enraged or chemically intoxicated attacker who is oblivious to being shot.
* Winchester designed the Ranger Talon with what they call a "reverse-taper" copper jacket. What this means is that the copper jacket on the Ranger Talon is thicker at the tip than at its base, and this is the opposite of conventional hollow-point bullet designs. This thickness is necessary to provide stiffness to the talons after expansion so they remain in ideal position to cut tissue that flows around the mushroom skirt.
Contrary to the pronouncements of gunwriter Ed Sanow, who claims that the Ranger Talon bullet slowly expands during its first 8 inches of penetration, the thick copper jacket requires the bullet to rapidly expand after impact when velocity is highest. Once the bullet begins to slow, the forces acting on the copper jacket and lead core which cause the bullet to deform, decrease. His absurd claim that this bullet gradually expands as it penetrates simply defies the laws of physics, and is based on fantasy.
The Black Talon bullet came under intense negative media scrutiny after it was criminally misused in a shooting rampage in a San Francisco office building in July 1993. Nine people were killed and six wounded by gunman Gian Luigi Ferri. The news media reported falsehoods that Black Talon's "razor sharp claws" created particularly ghastly, devastating and unsurvivable wounds.
The forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies of the fatal shooting victims gave a detailed presentation about his findings at the 1994 IWBA Wound Ballistics Conference in Sacramento: "The 101 California Shooting: The Black Talon Bullet," Boyd Stevens, M.D., Medical Examiner, San Francisco, CA. He stated that the wound trauma produced by Black Talon was unremarkable, meaning the wounds were no different nor any more severe than wounds produced by typical JHP handgun bullets. Each of the victims incurred fatal injury because a bullet passed through a vital structure.
Generally, a handgun bullet penetrating soft tissue permanently damages only the tissue it comes into direct contact with. The bullet damages this tissue by crushing it.
1. A temporary cavity is formed in soft tissue by the transfer of kinetic energy between the penetrating bullet and the tissue it contacts. Soft tissue is propelled radially outward away from the wound track at a speed no greater than one-tenth the velocity of the penetrating bullet, causing temporary displacement of these tissues by stretching them.
Unless the bullet passes through non-elastic soft tissue, which has little tolerance for stretching, such as kidney, liver, pancreas and spleen during the first few inches of penetration (these inelastic tissues often tear, split and rupture), the temporary cavity does not reliably increase wounding effectiveness.
The resilient, elastic-like tissues of blood vessels, bowel, heart, lung, muscle and nerve can easily absorb the stretching and transient displacement of temporary cavitation without sustaining very much damage.
When elastic soft tissue has stretched to the point where all the energy transmitted to it by the penetrating bullet has been dissipated, the displaced tissue rebounds to its original configuration, causing the temporary cavity to collapse. The hole that remains after the bullet has passed is the permanent cavity.
Temporary cavity is comparable to the splash produced by a rock thrown into a pool of water. The water near the surface and directly in the path of the rock is pushed aside as the rock penetrates, then quickly rushes back in to fill the void after the rock has passed. Temporary cavity has been sometimes referred to as "tissue splash."
Some handgun bullets fragment as they penetrate. The detached fragments produce their own wound tracks, usually straying no farther than half an inch from the main path of the bullet. Fragmentation of hollow-point bullets does not contribute to any substantial increase in wounding effectiveness.
With handgun bullets, penetration and permanent cavity are the only mechanisms that can be relied upon to produce rapid incapacitation of a criminal attacker. The bullet must penetrate the attacker’s torso deeply enough to reach and crush a hole in critical blood bearing soft tissues, and produce rapid fatal hemorrhage.
A bullet that expands to increase its diameter is able to contact and crush a greater area of tissue as it penetrates than a bullet which does not expand. This is the concept behind hollow-point bullets.
Hollow-point bullets are designed to expand upon impact with flesh. Hydraulic pressure from the fluids in soft body tissues presses against the internal wall of the hollow cavity, causing the wall to peel backwards around the bullet shank, increasing bullet diameter. (The mechanics of hollow-point bullet expansion are entirely analogous to cuffing a shirt sleeve.) Bullet expansion acts like a parachute to slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates dense soft tissue.
If a hollow-point bullet is propelled too quickly, it will either overexpand and not penetrate deeply enough, or it will fragment. If the bullet fragments, it defeats the purpose of using an expanding bullet.
It’s best to think of a hollow-point bullet as being similar to a broadhead hunting arrow. The arrow damages only the structures its blades come into direct contact with. It has less kinetic energy than a .22 Short. A bullet that overexpands and fragments is comparable to a broadhead hunting arrow that jettisons it blades immediately after impact. The resulting permanent cavity is no greater in diameter than the diameter of the arrow shaft, resulting in decreased wounding effect.
In police action and civilian self-defense shootings, excepting disruption of the central nervous system by a hit to the brain or the cervical spinal cord of the neck, blood loss in sufficient quantity to produce unconsciousness is the only reliable mechanism to stop a determined criminal attacker.
An adversary whose heart has just been destroyed may not collapse for up to a dozen seconds afterward due to residual oxygenated blood remaining in his brain. He remains able to perform willful post-fatal injury activity until blood loss affects the ability of his central nervous system to function.
The advantage of using a bullet that expands to increase its diameter is because it might contact and rupture the wall of a major blood vessel that would have been barely missed by the smaller diameter of a nonexpanding bullet following the same penetration path.
As a bullet penetrates soft tissue, it loses velocity, and this affects its "effective diameter." When the bullet first penetrates and expands, it is moving so quickly that it crushes almost all soft tissue it comes into direct contact with. However, as velocity begins to slow, soft tissue is then able to stretch around the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder to move out of the way. As the bullet slows further it plows more and more tissue aside instead of crushing it.
Near the end of the wound track, the diameter of the permanent cavity might be less than 60 percent of the expanded diameter of the bullet. The last few inches of the wound track are the most important because this is where the vital cardiovascular structures are located that you’re trying to damage.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon
Coffindodger! 08-17-2005, 00:27 It takes stuff like this to make me come back to my senses. I was thinking about buying a .357 Sig again..
I go through this cycle about once a year. Thanks! ;f
The first two expansion and penetration numbers have me completely baffled though I must admit..
Coffin, it has a lot to do with bullet design. The Gold Dot does better on penetration and DT's load matches and exceeds the 147gr 9mm in penetration. That is a 125gr load! We are comparing a light faster bullet to a slow heavy one here so lets see what happens with better designed bonded bullets.
DT has a 147gr Gold Dot load that is hitting the market around the first part of Sept that will be pushing the 147gr Gold Dot in the neighborhood of 1300fps+ so if we are going to compare apples to apples here let's wait to see what happens. I am guessing that pushing a good bullet design that will hold up to the velocity about 400fps faster than the magic 9mm 147gr will be, well humbling to say the least.
are all 357 sig loads for 125 weight bullit?the the 357 sig bullit dia. is for all practical perposes 9mm ,.355 etcive allways thought of the 357 sig as a fast light 9mm?;b
The new loads coming from Double Tap in Sept will be a 115gr Gold Dot and a 147gr Gold Dot so yea it is kind of like a hot 9mm. The only difference unlike the ranger ammo is that the Gold Dot 125 is designed for the 357sig and will stand up to high velocity.
The 115gr Gold Dot stood up to the 9X25 speeds well as did the 147gr Gold Dot so the new 357sig loads will be pretty tuff. Look forward to shooting them.
RenegadeGlocker 08-17-2005, 16:29 Any data when an apples to apples comparison is made? Like 147 grain 9mm vs. 147 grain 357Sig?
Right, I think it is kinda misleading to compare a 147gr 9mm against a 125gr 357sig. It does not really provide any useful information. All it is to me is a bunch of people that like the 147gr 9mm bullet blowing their own horn.
You need to compare apples to apples. The 9mm 147gr bullet may be a good one for the 9mm caliber. The 127gr +p+ performs better on living creatures that I have shot with it so I choose it. The 125gr bullets I have used performed better than both on living creatures even if it had less penetration in the be all end all gel.
The only bullet the die hard fans need to compare the 9mm 147 bullet to like bullets traveling at around the same speed. The new 357sig is using a like bullet but will average close to 400fps faster on the velocity side.
And if it penetrates better, shows more energy and in general is better loading then they will default back to well the 9mm is cheaper, or it kicks less or this or that. I am simply stating that if you’re going to compare them do so equally. None of the rest matters because I may be able to afford all the 357sig ammo I want and I may be able to bust splits out better than you can with a 9mm with my 357sig so nothing else matters. Not you but in general.
The ranger loading may not do as well as the 9mm loadings simply because it is faster and the bullet is not designed for it!
Coffindodger! 08-17-2005, 17:16 Hmmm, the 147gr. Gold Dot 357SIG sounds awesome. Anybody have any penetration and expansion specs for the Gold Dots in 357SIG?
DonGlock26 08-17-2005, 19:41 Originally posted by Coffindodger!
Hmmm, the 147gr. Gold Dot 357SIG sounds awesome. Anybody have any penetration and expansion specs for the Gold Dots in 357SIG?
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=417023
Coffindodger! 08-17-2005, 22:43 Originally posted by DonGlock26
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=417023
Thank ya Don. ;a
DonGlock26 08-18-2005, 09:32 Originally posted by Coffindodger!
Thank ya Don. ;a
No Problem.;c
Rockchucker 08-18-2005, 12:13 doesn't hornady and speer already make a 147 grain load in the 357 sig. i also believe that the 147 357 sig is not as good of a stopper thrn the original 125 grain.
by the by i believe in light and fast. on 243 or 6mm seems to kill deer alot quicker than a 30-06 or 308 just my observation.
Rockchucker 08-18-2005, 12:15 by the way spcwes what part of the state r u in. im from the st louis co. area.
Macon County area. I agree, it may not be but the 125 357sig running just shy of 1600fps is, you got it!! How you liking SL?
Rockchucker 08-18-2005, 23:16 it's a hell hole, but its where i live and work mid third busy pd in st louis co. border northside of st l city. nice country where your from good hunting.
Oh yea, my folk have a farm (farmed for deer and turkey) about 25 mins north and they have some mutant deer there!! It is alright around here for LE but not what I want. The wife and I are looking right now for a job that is a little more busy than the ones that we are currently in.
Like I said, it is alright. I stopped working for city and county and just went with the county and man, it has gotten boring. Her PD job is as expected a lot busier than mine.
Stay safe.
How exactly is comparing 147gr 9mm to 125gr 357sig an apples to oranges comparison? They are both the exact same diameter bullet. One penetrates and expands better than the other. Seems a pretty "apples to apples" comparison to me.
357wheelgunner 08-20-2005, 20:55 Originally posted by spcwes
Right, I think it is kinda misleading to compare a 147gr 9mm against a 125gr 357sig. It does not really provide any useful information. All it is to me is a bunch of people that like the 147gr 9mm bullet blowing their own horn.
You need to compare apples to apples. The 9mm 147gr bullet may be a good one for the 9mm caliber. The 127gr +p+ performs better on living creatures that I have shot with it so I choose it. The 125gr bullets I have used performed better than both on living creatures even if it had less penetration in the be all end all gel.
The only bullet the die hard fans need to compare the 9mm 147 bullet to like bullets traveling at around the same speed. The new 357sig is using a like bullet but will average close to 400fps faster on the velocity side.
And if it penetrates better, shows more energy and in general is better loading then they will default back to well the 9mm is cheaper, or it kicks less or this or that. I am simply stating that if you’re going to compare them do so equally. None of the rest matters because I may be able to afford all the 357sig ammo I want and I may be able to bust splits out better than you can with a 9mm with my 357sig so nothing else matters. Not you but in general.
The ranger loading may not do as well as the 9mm loadings simply because it is faster and the bullet is not designed for it!
awesome post, saved me a lot of typing.
I've shot racoons with .45 ball, 9mm ball, 9mm JHP, and .357sig JHP. The only round that immediately stopped the coons was the .357sig. The .45 and 9mm (both JHP and ball) wounded coons kind of staggered around a bit before they died.
I guess that the next time I go pest-controlling on the farm I'll bring my wife's 9mm, and when the rabid coon does not die I'll inform it that clearly the 9mm is a better round because a test showed better penetration and expansion....
...and of course you can verify that the all the bullets that you shot at coons hit the exact same place.
Wallygator 08-21-2005, 11:09 Originally posted by Brasso
...and of course you can verify that the all the bullets that you shot at coons hit the exact same place.
^6 Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.....
All that matters is enough penetration and the biggest expansion one can get from a load.
Two things:
Bigger holes=more blood loss
Deeper penetration=more chance of damaging a vital organ
If the 9 ranger goes deeper and expands to the same or bigger diameter, it is the better bullet for SD.
The weight of the bullet is less important than the above two criteria IMO, so in ANY caliber, if you get deeper and bigger holes, it is the better bullet where SD is concerned.
Those are the apples to apples we need to look at, not bullet weights, per se.
Robin Brown
If you are trying to get an even comparison in the test since then yea the bullet weight and type is very important and that is what this thread is about. Not whether a person likes a bullet more or what, it is about the test.
The people that scream every time ballistics are even mentioned about the magic 147gr 9mm are blind to any other test that show something might work as well or better.
If you out perform there magic bullet then they scream price or recoil or capacity or what ever they can think of. What I have found is when I get shots that do not break bone to a point of incapacitation from physical injuries and use different loads and calibers and one works better than others with shots real close to being the same that is what I use.
If you think the 9mm is just that good then great, it is a great load and I have several. Don't try and justify this to everyone because of your opinion or the gel test that Winchester did in house though. Most gel test performed on the same loadings outside of Winchester showed a little different results.
I just read a gun rag that tested the sxt in all the popular calibers and it showed a completely different outcome. The 147gr 357 load will out perform the 147gr 9mm load whether you or anyone else feels that it is worth using it or not. Most feel that the 147gr load is great and that is fine. Most base it on the penetration and cost of shooting alone. That is fine. But that does not mean that nothing works better. Problem is, you nor I can truly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is or is not more effective on humans but I know for a fact that the 10mm worked better and faster than the 9mm and the 40 cal loads on dropping pigs with weight close to large humans.
Some of the new studies that are being conducted by people that have the credentials to do so and actually know what they are talking about will show that speed and mass will make a difference in the impact of a bullet on a human. That there is indeed energy transfer and that even if it does no permanent damage it matters as far as impact felt in the target. I will say this, had I not seen the difference on living creatures a bullet makes I would have believed what most of the studies have said. Still they make a good point but from my experience there has to be something that their studies are not showing in terms of the effect a bullet has.
Those of us that hunt (especially people like me that use pistols more than anything) already know that the more power you have (speed, energy) the more the animal hits the dirt rather than running until vitals fail.
I will post my results this year on our controlled hog hunt in TX we do with handguns and you can see for your self what the difference is. I will also make a copy of the video we shoot for anyone that wants one. The video will shot the impact of the bullet the reaction of the hog to such and also the internal damage done on the animal with bullet path and organ destruction.
Last year I tested several loadings from handguns and the best performers on hogs was the 10mm and the 45acp. I did not test double tap ammo or the 357sig last year, this year we will do both. Look in the 9mm vs. 357 sig thread under handgun ammo on the Ar15 site and read Dr Courtney's post about his studies and you will see what is coming. We will test the 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, 357sig, and the 10mm only this year. We will use Winchester Ranger T ammo, Factory Gold Dot ammo, and the ammo Double Tap makes using the Gold Dot hollow point.
I guess we will see what happens.
Here is the link:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=19563&page=1
tsmo1066 08-22-2005, 11:32 SPCWES-
Those of us that hunt (especially people like me that use pistols more than anything) already know that the more power you have (speed, energy) the more the animal hits the dirt rather than running until vitals fail.
I hunt extensively and can tell you from experience that my compund bow (muzzle energy roughly 60lbs) drops deer about as fast as my .30-06 will. My muzzle-loading .53 caliber Santa Fe Hawken blackpowder rifle which has a muzzle velocity of just under 1800 fps and a muzzle energy of less than 1500 foot-lbs also drops deer, and does so FASTER than does my .30-06 with a muzzle velocity of better than 2700 fps and over 2900 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.
But all of this is anecdotal. I welcome new information and look forward to seeing the studies you speak of when the results from them are published in a peer-reviewed journal, along with their data sets and methodologies.
Do you have any word on when that will be?
I am a hunter for over 20 years and I have never seen a bow more effective than a 30.06!! I have taken deer with both and seen a many taken with both and again never witnessed a bow and arrow more effective than a high power rifle of any kind.
They may have the ability to kill but 9 out of 10 bow kills I have EVER witnessed (hundreds) on video or by my own hand or eyes involved a good heart & lung shot and between 50yds to 200yrds of running and then tracking blood!!
9 out of 10 30.06 shots I have made or seen made involved a deer hitting the dirt were it stands!! That is fact and if you get the same results or better with your bow over your 30.06 one of 2 things need to happen, you need better ammo for your rifle or better shot placement or you need to let us in on your magic broad heads that drop deer like a rifle hit.
Rockchucker 08-22-2005, 12:16 yeah what he said.
i still believe light and fast is better than heavy and slow.
st louis city pd shoots alot of folks with wwb 147 jhp, and there still around.
st charles city p.d. has shot several folks with 115 +p cor-bon and most of them were drt ( dead right there ). illinois state police for years carried either fed. win. 115 +p+ and were very happy with their shooting results.
you load what you want and i'll load what i want and we'll all be happy.
see ya
tsmo1066 08-22-2005, 12:50 spcwes-
I am a hunter for over 20 years and I have never seen a bow more effective than a 30.06!! I have taken deer with both and seen a many taken with both and again never witnessed a bow and arrow more effective than a high power rifle of any kind. They may have the ability to kill but 9 out of 10 bow kills I have EVER witnessed (hundreds) on video or by my own hand or eyes involved a good heart & lung shot and between 50yds to 200yrds of running and then tracking blood!!
I did not say the bow was MORE effective than the 30-06. I said that it was ABOUT AS effective.
Perhaps some clarification is needed as well. I should specify that it is about as effective GIVEN THE SAME SHOT PLACEMENT.
Problem is that most (I'd say two-thirds) of the people who bow hunt here in Texas shouldn't be. You see a lot of poor hits by yahoos who think they're good enough to take long range shots when in fact they're doing well to hold the eight ring with a bow at 30 meters. I have seen a great many deer hit POORLY with bows that ran for 100, 200 or more yards, but very seldom have I seen a deer with a clean heart hit from a bow manage to jump and run farther than 50 meters.
On at least two occasions I've seen them run just as far with their heart turned into pate by a 30-06.
The weapon that I said was MORE effective was my .53 Hawken blackpowder rifle. On a clean heart-hit with that monstrosity all of the dozen or so deer I have shot with it either shuddered and fell over, or took one reflexive jump and landed in a heap. This despite the fact that the Hawken (loaded as I shoot it with 200 grain ball at 1800fps) has barely half of the muzzle energy of the 30-06.
My point here is this. Muzzle energy ain't the whole story, or even the majority of it, and all of the hunter's tales are just that - HUNTERS TALES. Every time I hear someone talking about "studies" where they allegedly incapacitate small mammals in water-tanks with near misses, or hunt down hogs in the brush, I think of those cheesy "Extreme Shock" ammo adds where they talk about blowing Russian boars in half with their "Fang-Face anti-terrorist rounds".
That sort of stuff is purely anecdotal and only a fool would stake his/her life on it. If the "studies" you speak of have any merit at all, then why aren't they published in a peer-reviewed journal? If the evidence in support of "energy dump" as a legitimate factor in stopping bad guys is so overwhelming, why can't it stand up to public review by the scientific and law enforcement communities?
I hear guys all the time on the internet claiming to be "scientists", "SWAT team leaders", "Delta Force Operatives" and "experienced firearm instructors" but that doesn't make them any such thing. I like to stick with what can be VERIFIED through public access means. Fackler and the "slow and heavy" camp have that on their side in the form of PEER REVIEWED science, FBI reviews and credentials that can be validated. Where are similar peer reviewed studies from the "light and fast" gang?
Ok, out of order but in topic. Michael Courtney and his group are just getting started from my understanding with there studies and did not claim that light and fast is better nor did I.
Second, if you hunt as much as you say and I am not doubting this you would know that shots placed by a bow and arrow do not have the same effect on a deer as a 30.06 rifle round in the close to the same place. I have shot a many with both and I DO NOT take bad shots, I will pass on the animal before I do that.
On about 25 deer taken in my life with a bow only one dropped in its tracks and it was because the arrow deflected off a rib and travel through to the opposite shoulder and broke it. It was horrible to listen to as well. Made me feel like crap and that is one of the reasons I do not bow hunt any more.
In all my years of hunting which I started out with a 243 and went to a 30.06 and now to a 300mag I have shot more deer than I care to count. I have had a few run but never as far as the average bow kills because as stated, all ran but one and some close to 200yrds. Worst shot was the shoulder and one that clipped liver and died some half mile away.
9 out of 10 shot with the 243, 30.06 and the 300 mag with hits behind the front shoulder for heart and lungs hit the dirt were they stood. I call that a big difference and a lot more effective than a bow! And getting hit by a .53 caliber slug is like getting hit with a truck. Just because a 243 is around 3000fps or better does not make it better in terms of power than a 50BMG either and it is around 2600fps!
First off to bring the topic of power into view when we talk about bullets we also know that the 30.06 is over the threshold of speed to cause significant secondary damage with the temporary wound cavity becoming a permanent one because the flesh and tissue is not only stretched but it is torn because of the amount of stretching and how fast it starches.
The threshold that has been talked about by all the guys that have done studies is 2000fps with another level of destruction when the bullet reaches 3000fps in velocity.
I agree with light and fast not always being better though. I think when we talk about heavy big boned game then heavy and slow is better for one reason and one reason only, penetration is better.
That is fact. Now, the 50BMG combines heavy and fast so you get the best of both worlds. It will out penetrate any hunting round I have ever heard of and pack’s almost 2 times the energy with some rounds being in the neighborhood of 12,000 ft/lbs! Do you think that if it was slow and heavy it would be just as effective? I know it wouldn't, that is what most big game rifles are.
Does that mean that a faster bullet will not penetrate well? No, maybe not in the gel test. Forget intermediate barriers and such and let’s talk about bone and bone alone. If you hit bone you need a good bullet to stand up the impact and you need mass and speed to push the bullet on past the bone. That is why I have never liked a lighter bullet than a 124gr in a 9mm. I think that the 357mag, 357sig and the 9mm push that to the limit as far as bullet design is concerned.
I do not think any of them would be worth a crap if they did not have good bullets and most would agree. But if you take the same bullet design and it will hold up the faster the bullet can go the better. Like a 45acp, running 880fps gets the job done but I feel the same bullet run.
Forget the extreme shock crap, I am hunting as do millions of people and I am going to test different types of ammo out on hogs (close to the same size as larger humans with tougher skin) and record the results on film and paper. If I shot 5 pigs behind the front shoulder with a 147gr 9mm and 5 pigs behind the front shoulder with a 147gr 357sig and 4 out of 5 pigs drop with the 357 hit or vise versa I would tend to think that the round produced more of the result I was after.
I am not doing this for you, or anyone else. I want to know what goes past the gel way of thinking and actually see the effectiveness of these rounds on living flesh. I have seen it many times before and KNOW there is something. Maybe Michael will be able to put it into words so we can all learn from it.
ning 500fps would do better as do most that use the 45-70.
tsmo1066 08-22-2005, 14:11 spcwes-
"Ok, out of order but in topic. Michael Courtney and his group are just getting started from my understanding with there studies and did not claim that light and fast is better nor did I."
I believe he claims that using .357 Sig ammo, he and his team have been able to reliably incapacitate small-medium sized mammals immersed in water, and that this effect cannot be replicated using 147 grain 9mm ammo. As a person who hunted plenty of Nutria rats in East Texas in my youth, most of them shot with a .25-06 and many of those while swimming across streams and ponds, I can say that near misses in water have seldom done anything to the 15-20 lb rodents that I've shot at except make them swim a hell of a lot faster!
If his results are different, I look forward to reading about them in a peer reviewed publication. Until then, however, they are just anecdotal comments on the internet, no different than my own posted above.
"Second, if you hunt as much as you say and I am not doubting this you would know that shots placed by a bow and arrow do not have the same effect on a deer as a 30.06 rifle round in the close to the same place. I have shot a many with both and I DO NOT take bad shots, I will pass on the animal before I do that."
The .30-06 shreds tissue far more violently than does a broadhead arrow, to be sure, but the point here is that despite a roughly 45 fold difference in muzzle energy (60 pounds vs. 2900 lbs), both of them will typically drop a deer within 50 yards given a clean hit - and the Hawken seems to out-do them both despite having barely half the muzzle energy of the .30-06.
Obviously, it ain't all about muzzle energy.
"I want to know what goes past the gel way of thinking and actually see the effectiveness of these rounds on living flesh."
And that's fine, but you certainly must realize that in pursuing your quest for ballistic enlightenment, when you insist on referring to those who disagree with your theories as believing in "magic bullets", it tends to draw folks into the discussion, and not in a positive way. Most of us who like SCIENCE and verifiable data do so because we don't believe in 'magic' and prefer to stake our lives on hard, non-anecdotal ballistic data.
Edited to add:
BTW: I did not mean to imply that YOU were one of those folks who should not be bow hunting. If you hunt in Texas, however, I think you know the types I'm talking about. Seems the wannabe Robin-Hoods are everywhere since bowhunting became all the rage!
You see I have no problem with your comments but I refer to the magic bullet as the one that several, not even the majority, of people think is better than all on the market for stopping a fight.
I disagree with there OPINION on the matter because most will look at one or two test like the one that 147gr post on every thread as the be all end all magic bullet that out performs every other round on the market and none do anything it can't, that is simply not true.
Just because it penetrates at 14" in gel which the 125 Gold Dot from DT does as well does not make it the best on the market and neither does it show that slow bullets are more effective. Sorry, that is not the case. It shows that the bullet will expand, stay together and penetrate, that is about it.
There is no way a bow will drop a deer or any small mammals on a consistent basis in its tracks like a 30.06 does and I do not need opinions I have facts I have seen with my own 2 eyes after I squeezed the trigger. That is what the speed and impact of bullet does to a living creature.
Not sure what Michaels studies will prove or disprove but if you would like to talk with him go to the link provided and talk with someone that has a background to prove his "MYTHOLOGIES"!! Talk with the man, and then let us know what you think.
And yea I know the types. Bow hunting should in my opinion be reserved for hunters that know how to hunt. These folks are in every state.
tsmo1066 08-22-2005, 16:41 I disagree with there OPINION on the matter because most will look at one or two test like the one that 147gr post on every thread as the be all end all magic bullet that out performs every other round on the market and none do anything it can't, that is simply not true.
I wouldn't buy into any such absolutist rhetoric myself, but I would most definitely accept properly conducted, verifiable, repeatable gelatin tests performed to FBI specifications over some anecdotal hunting stories about what "brand X" round does to groundhogs or rabid hamsters in the back-country. ;)
Just because it penetrates at 14" in gel which the 125 Gold Dot from DT does as well does not make it the best on the market and neither does it show that slow bullets are more effective.
What it shows is that the 125 grain Gold Dot penetrates deeply enough to reach vital organs while expanding aggressively. Unfortunately, many of the fast and light rounds don't do that, and while we can argue endlessly over the value of 'energy dump' as a stopping mechanism, I don't think that either of us would like to rely EXCLUSIVELY on it in a real-world defensive situation.
You need a bullet that penetrates deeply and expands aggressively while doing so. That's the meat of the issue...everything on top of that is gravy.
Not sure what Michaels studies will prove or disprove but if you would like to talk with him go to the link provided and talk with someone that has a background to prove his "MYTHOLOGIES"!! Talk with the man, and then let us know what you think.
No offense to the good doctor, but I'd rather wait to read some peer-reviewed research from him and then talk about it.
The only part I can get a little riled up with in our conversation is this, take it for what it is worth.
Anecdotal hunting stories, if I test it and I like the results and there are results if you wish to conduct your own studies then the term anecdotal does not have a lot o weight. That is like saying you think what you want to but you’re wrong. For instance, if I can get all of what I want with a 9mm 147gr bullet and then you come along with the same bullet but 350fps to 400fps faster what is not to like, if the bullet does what it is supposed to it will perform better.
What is not to like about that and how can anyone say it is not better? I know what I have seen with my own testing and although it may not be entirely controllable it can be duplicated by people that hunt or choose to try some type of controlled experiment.
Most of your comments I can agree with and when Mike’s researches are published then it will be and we can look all we want.
Any edge that you can get with any bullet is an edge all the same and I will take it and recommend that all do the same.
Edited to add along with the FBI testing: And they changed to the .40S&W caliber why?
tsmo1066 08-22-2005, 18:35 Anecdotal hunting stories, if I test it and I like the results and there are results if you wish to conduct your own studies then the term anecdotal does not have a lot o weight.
Actually, it does. Tests performed to FBI standards in properly calibrated ballistic gelatin can be replicated time and again. Success in such tests has also been tied back to real-world, PEER REVIEWED shooting studies like those performed by the late Eugene Wolberg. Like it or not, there is a proven, replicatable correlation between success in ballistic gelatin studies and success on the street and this correlation has been tested out under peer reviewed settings.
No such replicatable, peer reviewed studies have been performed directly linking the shooting of small mammals with proven success in real-world police shootings. That is the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientifically proven non-anecdotal evidence.
That is like saying you think what you want to but you’re wrong. For instance, if I can get all of what I want with a 9mm 147gr bullet and then you come along with the same bullet but 350fps to 400fps faster what is not to like, if the bullet does what it is supposed to it will perform better.
There's plenty to not like, depending on the bullet. Jacking up the velocity of a given cartridge does not necessarily ensure better performance, and indeed can quite often accomplish the opposite. Most modern hollowpoints are designed to perform properly within a given velocity window, and the JHP round which effectively expands after penetrating bone or hard barriers at 1000 fps can often simply fragment to all to hell when driven into such barriers at, say, 1250 fps. Conversely, the round which penetrates soft tissue deeply while mushrooming well at 900 fps might over-expand while penetrating a mere six inches when driven into tissue at 1200 fps.
It all depends on the bullet/velocity combination, which is why gelatin testing is valuable. When correctly performed to FBI standards, it provides a uniform, replicatable means of determining whether a given bullet/velocity combination meets the penetration and expansion requirements through various intermediate obstacles which has been shown to correlate well with overall street success in law enforcement use.
Is it the be-all and end-all? No, but it's a lot more sound than anything else currently available.
tsmo1066 08-22-2005, 18:43 Most of your comments I can agree with and when Mike’s researches are published then it will be and we can look all we want.
I also think we're in agreement on most of what is under discussion here. I don't think either of us favor rounds that don't penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs, nor do I think either of us would want to use ball ammo for self defense and throw expansion completely out the window.
Everything else is shades of gray.
As for Michael's research, I really DO look forward to seeing it published, and hope that unlike Marshal and Sanow, he makes his database public and submits his work for peer review so that law enforcement and ballistics professionals all over the world can look at it and draw valid conclusions.
Hell, if his work turns out to be valid, I might even think about upgrading to 10mm or .45 Super myself! ;f
tsmo1066 08-22-2005, 18:53 Edited to add along with the FBI testing: And they changed to the .40S&W caliber why?
Because the 10mm kicked too hard.:joker:
And they upgraded to 10mm mainly because of the "Miami Massacre" and the failure of a "light and fast" 115 grain Winchester Silvertip to penetrate deeply enough into the BG during that shootout. Although one of the first rounds fired in that engagement was a solid hit that severed a major artery in the BG, it only penetrated about 10 inches. Had it penetrated even one more inch it would have punctured his heart as well and he would have bled out in seconds, rather than a couple of minutes.
As a result of that incident the FBI set standards for penetration and expansion, with 12 inches being the minimum viable penetration depth for a law enforcement JHP.
Had the FBI felt that "energy dump" was the way to go, instead of moving up to heavier rounds with an emphasis on expansion and deeper penetration, they would have moved down to still lighter cartridges with extreme velocity.
90 Grain Aguila's anyone?
No I see what your saying the only thing I say is during the shoots that I have seen or seen done the more power and speed you have the better. I am not saying light and fast, not by any stretch.
If you have a good bullet design which will hold up and do what it is supposed to do at various speeds then the fastest that you can push that bullet and still maintain its integrity the better.
If you can handle the weapon that does this then more power to you. The Gold Dot hp is one such bullet. This bullet will do what it is supposed to at even extreme velocities.
For instance, the 115gr Gold Dot 9X25 that Mike used in the same gel used by the FBI in the same test running at close to 500fps faster than the bullet is used in its factory settings maintained good weight retention, penetrated what would have been well over 20" and in his own words appeared to have almost ripped the top slab off of the gel block.
He told me that the petals of the hp opened just like they should passed the penetration point of most any handgun bullet and then folded back against the base of the bullet but held together really well and that is IMHO great performance.
I agree with the penetration and feel that it is one of the important factors that make a handgun round effective but not the only one. The Gold Dots will perform, even at crazy speeds while others will not. I think the only other handgun bullet I have seen stand up like this was the Barnes x copper bullet.
You see one of the things I have heard about penetration is that it may need to penetrate an arm or arms and still get to vitals and that is all well and good but I do not feel you get an accurate representation of how a bullet will do this from shooting into a gel designed to simulate muscle tissue.
I am not sure how you could get this test but without bone you lack an important element to judge penetration. I think that if the 147gr bullet gets the penetration minimum met then the same bullet matching that plus exceeding it if even by a couple inches will make a huge difference if large bones are hit and this is one of those things I have witness while shooting animals.
You’re right on the testing not being truly able to be controlled with the animals because you can't hit the same place or tissue with each bullet because it will always be different. But you can see the bullets effect if you shoot more and more animals with it, you can see what happens if XYZ is done or XYZ is hit at this angle and so on.
With repeated trials you will start to get an idea of what is the most destructive and which incapacitates the fastest with like hits.
I like more power in the terms I think of. More speed with the same bullet means it may and has with me in the past give it that edge to push through a bone and hit vitals were as a lesser powerful loading my not.
tsmo1066 08-23-2005, 11:39 spcwes-
If you have a good bullet design which will hold up and do what it is supposed to do at various speeds then the fastest that you can push that bullet and still maintain its integrity the better.
No argument there. IF the bullet can hold up to the extra force and still do what it's supposed to do, then the added energy is gravy on the steak. I'm sure it's not coincidence that companys like Double Tap usually prefer working with bonded bullets like the Gold Dot when they produce souped-up ammunition. The bonded stuff generally holds up better.
If the bullet can take the stress and still perform the way it is supposed to perform, added power is generally a good thing, with the trade-off becoming one between controllability, magazine capacity, follow-up shot speed and other factors.
Agreed, but with my Glock 31 running stock mags with 15+1 of 125gr Gold Dots that hold up very well indeed to around the 1600fps they are traveling, I am happy and can't wait for the 115gr and 147gr load due out the first part of next month!
If the 115gr can stand up to 1800fps it should do very well at around 1650fps to 1700fps out my 31. MUHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Good talking with you Bro.
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