RRA R-4 or Midlength handguard? Help me decide...

[Jaltered]

I'm looking into getting an AR as part of my home defense setup. I am interested in a RRA carbine.

The two I'm considering are:

Elite CAR A4 (http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR1225X&storeid=1&image=nbrela4.gif&CFID=2610347&CFTOKEN=71862707)

Or:

Entry Tactical (http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR1251X&storeid=1&image=nbrentry.gif&CFID=2610347&CFTOKEN=71862707)

I want a 16" barrel since it would most likely be used in an urban/indoor setting, but I'm not sure whether to go with the R-4 handguard of the Entry Tactical or the Midlength handguard of the Elite CAR A4.

They cost the same, and all other features seem to be equivalent. Will the slightly longer sight radius on the midlength help me make more accurate shots at longer distances? And is there anything else I should consider between the R-4 or Midlength handguards? Personally, I think the R-4 grip "looks cooler," but BIG DEAL! Is there an advantage to either one?

Gorelicks, I'm expecting some input from you! ;) Thanks, everyone!

[JinVA]

I was leaning towards the midlength, as the extra 2" will help with the irons, and aparently the gas system runs a bit cleaner. I ended up getting the Stag carbine length that gorelicks always recommends. Still waiting on a lower for it tho.
I think my 2nd AR will be the RRA midlength, or maybe an 18" barrel.

[Arminius]

I had to make the same decision ( Carb or Midlenght ).

I decided on the Middy, for lower case pressure at the moment of extraction ( 13000 20", ~ 18000 Middy?, 26000 Carb ) ( from AR15Com? ).

Have gun not yet, hope she runs troublefree.

For longer range shots I would use a Eotech, Acog or 1,25-4x scope, anyway.

just my opinion, H

[Jaltered]

Hmm...

I clearly don't know enough about ARs yet. I didn't know that the gas system or case pressures would be different between the two. I figured it was just a difference in handguard length and front sight distance!?

How will this affect the general performance of the gun with respect to the two ARs that I mentioned?

Gorelicks, I'm still waiting on your holy golden AR wisdom. ;)

[RMTactical]

Well, I personally like the Entry Tactical myself. They also seem to be more popular, in general.

Extra sight radius is never a bad thing, but for super short engagements, it won't matter a whole lot. Like it was stated, if you have optics, the sights will be less and less of a factor as well. Practicing with your weapon will also be a huge determining factor.

One thing I like about the Entry Tactical vs. the Elite CAR A4 is that the E.T. seems to be more popular, therefore, you will more likely be able to find and get spare parts for it. The midlength handguards are a bit of an oddball size.

Also, there will be a bit of personal preference that may make or break your decision...

Would you be planning on adding anything to the weapon specifically, or are you going to run it the way pictured?

[Jaltered]

I probably won't have the $$$ for any optics for a long time. I'd probably just add a sling and keep it simple. Iron sights won't run out of batteries either, so I'll probably just train hard with them for awhile.

Does the extra sight radius actually make much of a difference, especially if the R-4 length will have more parts accessible? And others mentioned gas pressures being different...? How does the handguard length affect the pressures of the round fired?

Sorry. I'm a newbie to ARs. ;g

Everyone's input is appreciated!

[Yojimbo]

A midlength barrel has the gas port moved up about 2 inches closer to the muzzle.

This makes the carbine run a bit smoother, gives you more handguard space, longer sight radius and allows a bayonet to fit[;)].

I also prefer the extra 2" grip space because I feel the carbine grip are too short.

Here's a quote I took from an article explaining the advantages of the mid-length gas system.

"The Armalite Mid-Length Carbine was designed specifically to overcome the long-known gas system-related problems associated with the standard M4/M4A1, problems that have been plaguing end-users for years. These include greatly accelerated gas port erosion, , excess heat, higher operating gas pressures, melted and blown-out gas rings, and an open/iron sight radius that's too short. None of these are good things on a field combat weapon.

So, how does the the Mid-Length Carbine mitigate these problems? The Mid-Length Carbine moves...

the front sight base/gas block 2 inches forward from its position on the M4/M4A1 Carbine. This puts the Armalite Mid-Length Carbine's gas port mid-length between that of the M4/M4A1 carbine and full-length AR-15/M16 rifle, thus the Mid-Length Carbine's name.

The 20-inch barrelled AR-15/M16's gas port is located 12.5" forward of the chamber and 7.5" back from the muzzle. The M4/M4A1 Carbine's gas port sits 7.5" in front of the chamber and 8.5" back from the muzzle. The Armalite Mid-Length Carbine places its gas port 9.5" in front of the chamber and 6.5" behind the muzzle.

All this serves to put the Armalite Mid-Length Carbine's gas port closer to the full-length AR-15/M16's optimum operating pressure curve allowed by its 20" barrel. This results in less gas port erosion, reduced heat, slower bolt velocity, improved extraction, and a longer sight radius. "

The one with tan furniture is a mid-length and if I was given the choice of keeping only one I'd keep the mid-length.;)

http://www.huntingpictures.net/data/560/95P7310042_Large_.JPG

[Jaltered]

Thanks for the great blurb from that article, Yojimbo. Do you have a link to the entire article? (Sweet ARs as well!)

Also, does slower bolt velocity have any effect on the rate of fire that is possible? My guess is no, but I have to ask. ;g

I'm starting to lean towards a mid length. Specifically, the RRA Elite CAR A4. Anything else I should consider?

Thanks again!

[Arminius]

Well, my problem at the time is, shall I get the ( in Europe terribly expensive, ~ € 200! ) A 2 Carry handle, when I might switch to optics or head ups shortly/later, or get the LaRue fixed or ???: Troy or Wilson or Matech ( link, please ) or Midwest Ind or YHM folding?

I want a sturdy rear BUIS because I will shoot some time with it ONLY.

I also like a good field of view. As I already have XS SP apertures, I´m leaning towards something with A 1 or A 2 apertures. ( IMHO .70 is too small, .200 for quick and close and dirty work is fine. Now the XS´s are .100, which seems fine, but the big one is .233 or .250 and that is too big ).

Any recommendations, gents?

H

[Yojimbo]

Jaltered,

I found the article I quoted sometime ago and kept it in my notes because it's a nice Cliff's Notes version of the Armalite Technote that dicusses the carbine and mid-length gas systems.

I don't have a link to the original article I quoted but below is the link to the Armalite Technote that I mentioned.;)

http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote48.htm

Also, slowing the BC group will slow down the rate of fire and it's a good thing. This is why the H-buffer is used and why even the heavier 9mm buffers are used on 5.56 carbines.

The idea is to slow down the ROF and increase dwell time so that the shell is not as expanded against the chamber(due to gas pressure) when extraction begins. The leads to smoother operation, more reliable extraction and less wear and tear on the extractor, ejector and bolt. All good things...:)

[G33Man]

Very, very happy with my mid-length RRA Elite CAR A4.

Very, Very happy with all the accessories that I have chosen.



http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL875/3165911/7390423/106433178.jpg
http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL875/3165911/7720346/108154337.jpg

[Jaltered]

Very nice, G33Man! ^c

Yojimbo, does the "slower rate of fire" affect how fast you can rapid fire or pull the trigger of the gun? Meaning, can I pop off shots faster with an M4 than a Midlength? Or is it even noticeable to the operator? Thanks for helping to educate someone eager to join the "evil black rifle cult." :)

(FYI, I do visit AR15.com every day and try to make sense of everything I read there, but it takes awhile to soak it all in.)

[Yojimbo]

Jaltered,

Unless you can shoot faster than 600 rounds per minute you won't notice a thing...;)

[Jaltered]

I figured it was at a speed only noticeable to the actual mechanics of the gun. Thanks. :)

Is there a difference in bullet velocity between the M4 and Midlength? How about felt recoil to the user?

[Yojimbo]

No difference in velocity but the recoil is slightly milder.

Some folks don't feel the difference as much as others but where it makes the most difference is inside the gun.;)

[dixon22]

Midlengths are the current trend due to the advantages of longer sight radius and gas pressure issues bewteen the carbine and midlength. My personal AR is midlength and I will never go back to the carbine. However, there is nothing wrong with a carbine either. I don't believe the problems associated with the carbines will become an issue unless you are doing ALOT of shooting. Our dept. SWAT team uses the 11.5" barrel full-auto M16 Commandos. They certainly fire more rounds than I do (mainly due to my personal time restraints and personal cost of ammo) however I don't believe they will exceed the life of the operating system any time soon (the dept. has had these M16's for bout 2 years now). I am the dept. armorer for the M16's as well as for the patrol issue AR15's (16" carbine setup semi-auto only) and have yet to see any problems between the two as compared to my personal midlength set up. I personally believe that a side by side comparison the midlength will have an edge in accuracy and performance. If one could fire the 2 without cleaning I would bet my money that the midlength would have a high round count than the carbine before problems developed. But in reality, who can afford to torture test their own expensive AR til it breaks? One thing I will recommend is to hands down make sure the bore is chrome lined.....

[Ljunatic]

I think the mid-length system is a much better design all around when talking about 16" barrels.







Plus a normal bayonet works on them;f

[Jaltered]

Does anyone have a pic of a "KISS" RRA Elite CAR A4 with the standard carry handle on top?

I tried photoshopping some images together for myself, but I'd love to see some real builds. Thanks! :)

[Jaltered]

I'm reposting these questions in this thread too. In case I decide a carry handle isn't necessary.....

What optics work with the RRA Elite CAR UTE2?

Is there an advantage of the UTE2 over the Elite CAR A4? Or is it the other way around?

I noticed that most places charge less for the UTE2 models.

Edited to add: Can you mount the EOTech directly to the UTE2 upper? If not, what does it take to do so, if it can be done? Thanks!