Question: Why 10mm?

[Ghast]

Why has everyone here chosen the 10mm?
What brought it to your attention?
What does the 10mm do better than other calibers?
Most importantly, what would another caliber have to do to make you switch?

[xd>glock2me]

I just wanted some serious wieght and velocity in one package. I like other calibers also, but there is just something about a 165gr HP @ 1,400 fps that get me up in the morning. I does everything better than other autoloader rounds if you ask me. For me to switch it would take less recoil and a larger diameter bullet at the same 10mm velocities

[noway]

Why has everyone here chosen the 10mm?

You want the truth ......?

Will their was no 40sw or 357sig when I bought my 1st 10mm handgun. Also the 45acp in the glock twin was on back order and this gun called model 20 was $25.00 cheaper. So I figure give it a try

What brought it to your attention?
See above , $20.00 cheaper @ the the gun range I picked it up at

What does the 10mm do better than other calibers?
Provides magnum power in a controllable package, with the ability to serve as a duty or hunting platform in reason plus being a semi-auto. Very few guns/calibers can make that statement.

Most importantly, what would another caliber have to do to make you switch?

What do you mean switch? I have numerous guns my 10mm are just another tool in the shed. just like a carpenter has multiple chisels and no one chisel fits all needs. The 10mm is another tool that serves a limited function/role.


Hope this answers your questions.

[nickE10mm]

Why NOT 10mm?

[Never2many]

I own and have owned .380, 9mm, .40 and 10mm... and shot everything in between. The 10mm is the best I've owned/shot... it's extremely accurate, powerful, can be used for personal protection to hunting and has bullet weights from 135gr to 200gr. There isn't a caliber out there that can match it in so many areas. (In my opinion)

It's not as cheap as some other calibers to shoot... but I don't carry based on cost when it comes to protecting me or my family.

My last carry gun which I still own was my G23, great gun, but I'll take the G29 over it any day.

[MrWinkey]

I like the 10mm for flexablity.

Easy to shoot light loads for practice.

Easier to shoot DT or full on loads.

Basicly it means I have less complications in my life. It's just a tool after all but for me the 10mm is the cresent wrench of my gun toolbox.

[SilverState]

It helps to know the history of the 10mm in a nutshell:

The reason it was created was because the FBI were outgunned by criminals. Smith and Wesson came to rescue by providing a round with more velocity than a .45acp, bigger size than a 9mm, and capacity between a .45acp and a 9mm.

The only "problem" is that some FBI agents (mostly females) were recoil sensitve and/or had little hands and could not get a good grip on the larger frame (10mm is longer than 9mm and has more recoil).

So the FBI compromised and went with the .40 s&w (aka short and week, slow and whimpy, etc.).

So if you are not recoil sensitive and have average or larger sized hands, there is no reason not to have a 10mm in your arsenal. Why not benefit from the millions of government dollars spent developing the round.

The only downside to the round, if you even want to call it that, is that with the high velocity, and with heavy grain bullets, especially ball ammo, the bullets tend to go through a body and keep going. So you want to be cognizant of your backdrop. My solution is to use a lighter weight hollow point gold dot bullet (135 gr @ 1600fps or 165 gr @ 1400fps). With the higher velocity and the hollow point design, the bullet tends to fragment in the body, which is what you want in a self defense round.

[JWP]

easier package to carry than 223/308/etc

[EDBSO]

Because it's very difficult to conceal a FAL.

Seriously. The 10mm is the perfect all around caliber. I recently purchased a G29 and I'm glad I did! Impressive out of the box firing DT 165gr gold dots.

[MPG1737]

I think the 10mm is a great round without question. But I think it shines in the field more so than the street. For close up self defense I prefer the increased bullet size of the .45 Auto. It's not velocity that kills with handguns. So the advantage goes to the biggest bullet as far as I am concerned.

[lcarreau]

Originally posted by nickE10mm
Why NOT 10mm?

The only thing that keeps me out of the 10mm game is that Brass is not as easy to get for free or close to free as the other more common calibers. I reload, scrounging brass from the local range I use. 10mm is a rare find.

-Lonnie

[Ghast]

Silverstate, if i'm not mistaken Jeff Cooper actually developed this round several years before the FBI discovered that the 9x19 was not the ideal manstopper. I have a pretty good idea of the 10mm's history.

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm not looking to be sold on the 10mm, that happened a while back. I'm simply wondering what it was that sold all of you on the round.

[NordicG3K]

Originally posted by SilverState
It helps to know the history of the 10mm in a nutshell:

The reason it was created was because the FBI were outgunned by criminals. Smith and Wesson came to rescue by providing a round with more velocity than a .45acp, bigger size than a 9mm, and capacity between a .45acp and a 9mm.

The only "problem" is that some FBI agents (mostly females) were recoil sensitve and/or had little hands and could not get a good grip on the larger frame (10mm is longer than 9mm and has more recoil).

So the FBI compromised and went with the .40 s&w (aka short and week, slow and whimpy, etc.).

Not quite correct. The 10mm Auto was developed by Dornaus & Dixon with the help of Col. Jeff Cooper and was first available in the Bren Ten which was introduced in 1983. This was a few years before the famous Miami F.B.I. shootout which left a number of agents dead and/or seriously wounded, and the F.B.I. looking for a new service cartridge. The F.B.I. wanted the .45, but felt they should add at least one more cartridge to the testing so that it wouldn't be just between the .45 and the 9mm. To the surprise of the F.B.I. the 10mm outperformed the .45 ACP.

The rumor that female and "small-statured" male agents couldn't handle the full-power cartridge simply isn't true as agents were never issued this ammo. From the very beginning F.B.I. testers were concerned that the full-power ammo would be difficult to control and so one of the testers actually handloaded some ammo that would decrease recoil and yet still surpass the performance of the .45 ammo tested. This, of course, resulted in the birth of the "F.B.I. Lite" ammo. (Interestingly, the reason a 180gn bullet was selected was simply because this was the only .40 caliber bullet weight available at the store where the F.B.I. tester purchased his reloading components.)

The reason the F.B.I. dropped the 10mm was not due to problems with the cartridge. The issue was the F.B.I. version of the S&W 1076 which encounted a number of trigger/decocker problems requiring the guns to be returned to S&W for repairs. After sending them back a second time the F.B.I. began to issue Sig P226s (in 9mm again). By this time S&W had downsized the 10mm creating the .40 S&W allowing the same performance as the "F.B.I. Lite" 10mm loading in a smaller platform. The F.B.I. now issues Glocks in this caliber, though I have heard that older agents were allowed to keep their 1076s if they desired. I do believe the F.B.I. still uses the HK MP5-10, but it's been a while since I've heard anything about them so this may have changed.

[ECVMatt]

but with more power than a .45. I own many different calibers and shoot them all. I like my 1911 .45's and 40's, 9's and .357 Sigs. I also have a few BB revolvers that I like as well. However, if I have hiking, fishing, or hunting I almost always have my 20 or 29. They seem to have a good balance of power, wieght, capacity, and size. I have also taken some hogs with my 20 and found it to be the best choice for the way inwhich we hunt.

If I had to switch, I would go to my .45 Colt. I love this round too because I can be loaded with such versitility.

Matt

[saspic]

Why has everyone here chosen the 10mm?
If you're are a numbers person, 10x25mm has all semi-auto cartridges beat (save oddballs like the Desert Eagle-only .50AE). I saw a poll asking which was better for stopping power, small and fast or big and slow. I choose "Other," because with 10mm, you can have big and fast. It's a no compromise cartridge.

What brought it to your attention?
Glock Talk forums (back when it used to be all about guns).

What does the 10mm do better than other calibers?
Everything. As in, you can go light, heavy, fast, slow, hunt, plink, defend yourself. The only thing we don't have in 10mm is a pocket gun. Sigh...

Most importantly, what would another caliber have to do to make you switch?
It would have to be bigger and have similar velocities and better muzzle energy. I was impressed by the .45 Super, but comparing 200 grain rounds in each caliber, 10mm still has a slight edge.
If a close friend was just getting started with handguns and wanted big heavy and fast, I probably would steer him to .45 Super since there's a much better selection of .45 caliber guns than 10mm guns. Also you can shoot .45 ACP with no modifications.
Personally, I'm not likely to switch since I am heavily invested in a 10mm only arsenal. And perfectly satisfied with full power 10mm performance.

[steel]

I like it because it can handle people and animals. I took my family out to a desert wilderness this past weekend where mountain lions have been known to roam. I carried my G20 with 16 rounds of Double Tap 165 grain Gold Dots and I felt comfortable to deal with anything that came my way.

[357S]

Originally posted by MPG1737
I think the 10mm is a great round without question. But I think it shines in the field more so than the street. For close up self defense I prefer the increased bullet size of the .45 Auto. It's not velocity that kills with handguns. So the advantage goes to the biggest bullet as far as I am concerned.

What kills is adequate penetration to reach the vitals. Velocity sure helps with that. Also high velocity tends to help expansion and fragmentation. I tend to think velocity is a very important component in a SD round.

[357S]

Originally posted by noway
Why has everyone here chosen the 10mm?

What does the 10mm do better than other calibers?
Provides magnum power in a controllable package, with the ability to serve as a duty or hunting platform in reason plus being a semi-auto. Very few guns/calibers can make that statement.



I prefer to have 1 platform, for all my needs. SD/hiking/hunting/targetry. The G20 is the best compromise I have found for all 4 roles.

[SilverState]

Originally posted by Ghast
Silverstate, if i'm not mistaken Jeff Cooper actually developed this round several years before the FBI discovered that the 9x19 was not the ideal manstopper. I have a pretty good idea of the 10mm's history.

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm not looking to be sold on the 10mm, that happened a while back. I'm simply wondering what it was that sold all of you on the round.

Two things. One, when I say in a nutshell, I am trying to make things simple for someone that doesn't know anything about the topic. If you have a pretty good idea of the 10mm's history, then that would be something worth mentioning in your original post. Your post sounded like you wanted to be sold on the round.

As for details about the development of the 10mm, I think I am somewhat mistaken. Several men were instrumental in the development of the 10mm. People like Collins, Cooper, Dornaus, Dixon. But the fact remains that the FBI was the major thrust in bringing the 10mm to life as more than an obscure cartride.

http://sincitypitbulls.freeservers.com/10mmnot40sw.jpg

http://nordicg3k.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fbi-bulletin_nov89.jpg

http://nordicg3k.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fbi-bulletin_intro.jpg

[Never2many]

What kills is adequate penetration to reach the vitals. Velocity sure helps with that. Also high velocity tends to help expansion and fragmentation. I tend to think velocity is a very important component in a SD round.

+1


And now a days, you don't know what you might be shooting through to hit your target... such as the wack job here a few months ago in the Tampa area that pulled an SKS out of his trunk and opened fire into an SUV out of road rage... seeing I drive 350+ miles a week, I want something that can go through glass or sheet metal and still pentitrate if the need arises. I'll take the 10mm for that job too...

And as JWP said, it's easier to carry then my AR15 :)

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by 357S
What kills is adequate penetration to reach the vitals. Velocity sure helps with that. Also high velocity tends to help expansion and fragmentation. I tend to think velocity is a very important component in a SD round.

Surely your not suggesting a 230gr JHP will not reach the vitals...

As an aside, I don't want fragmentation. Unless we are discussing the .223, .308 etc. I don't care so much that the 10mm is faster than the .45, because both are designed to perform at their respective velocities. I will take the bigger bullet.

[PaleGreenHorse]

....because the 10mm is the most versatile auto cartridge ever designed.

[357S]

Originally posted by MPG1737
Surely your not suggesting a 230gr JHP will not reach the vitals...

As an aside, I don't want fragmentation. Unless we are discussing the .223, .308 etc. I don't care so much that the 10mm is faster than the .45, because both are designed to perform at their respective velocities. I will take the bigger bullet.

In most situations the 230gr should do fine. If you need to defeat a barrier, 230gr may not suffice. THP didnt like it for that reason IIRC. The FBI obviously didnt feel comfortable with the .45, otherwise 10mm wouldn't have been developed. What led to this decision. If I had to guess, Id say the .45 was too slow. Just a guess though.

[357S]

Originally posted by Never2many
+1


And now a days, you don't know what you might be shooting through to hit your target... such as the wack job here a few months ago in the Tampa area that pulled an SKS out of his trunk and opened fire into an SUV out of road rage... seeing I drive 350+ miles a week, I want something that can go through glass or sheet metal and still pentitrate if the need arises. I'll take the 10mm for that job too...

And as JWP said, it's easier to carry then my AR15 :)

Due to the wide range of possible scenarios, I want options. And I want a caliber that is up to those challenges. 9mm is probably fine, heck .380/ .32 would probably get you out of most jams. But for that last 5%-10% I want better odds, and that leads me to a higher caliber.

[JWP]

a friend of mine has a compact witness in 10mm with 3"+ barrel, our doubletap type 180 fmj penetrated an old k30 plate 1/2" steel using his pistol [similar length to g29 barrel] and chrono's at 1350 fps - non max load of aa#9] that is better than any 223 lol, now range though........

[Bullman]

In the days when most law enforcement in this country were carrying .38 and .357 revolvers, some of the gurus felt that the ultimate LE round would be just a little bit bigger. I have a feeling that is how the .41 magnum came to be. I wouldn't be surprised if that thinking went into the developement of the 10mm.

I have to admit, that I first became interested in the 10mm by watching Miami Vice, I was drug in by the cool factor of Sonny Crockett's big shiney automatic. While I have never owned a Bren, and probably never will, I have had several 10mm pistols, and once I got over the "cool factor" I realized I owned pistols with real potential. I don't hunt, and I don't go out and regularly shoot people like Sonny did every week on the TV show, so I don't have a whole lot of practical experience on what this cartridge will actually do. But... I do read a lot, I read Marshall and Sanow, looked at their infamous one shot stop list, and I saw that .357 magnum was going to be hard to beat. I figured if I could carry an auto pistol that performed on the level of the .357 Magnum, I would have a good carry gun. The 10mm can perform at that power level. That is what sold me.

[nickn]

versatility, and damn its cool to be different. :cool: I plan on owning other calibers, I am interested in a kimber TLE/RL II right now, but if it sold, I am gonna try to get my hands on a custom eclipse 10mm :)

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by 357S
In most situations the 230gr should do fine. If you need to defeat a barrier, 230gr may not suffice. THP didnt like it for that reason IIRC. The FBI obviously didnt feel comfortable with the .45, otherwise 10mm wouldn't have been developed. What led to this decision. If I had to guess, Id say the .45 was too slow. Just a guess though.

The .45 ACP with it's 230gr bullet is the most proven manstopper in the auto cartridge world. The 10mm is a relative newcomer, and does not have much of a track record. You say the FBI obviously didn't feel comfortable with it? That's BS. The development of the 10mm was never due to the .45 being an insufficient cartridge. And not because it was "too slow".;Q

As I said before, I think the 10mm is a good cartridge. But I am not at all convinced it is a superior manstopper to the .45 . Since I do not subscribe to the "speed kills" theory of stopping power (concerning handgun velocities), a .40 caliber bullet going somewhat faster than a heavier .45 cal bullet is not at any advantage.

Unless we are discussing hunting/field use, where additional penetration is often required. This is where the 10mm has an advantage.

Think of it this way...Pull a bullet from a 10mm round, and one from a .45 ACP. Look at the two side by side. Now consider when each is driven at it's respective velocity, each will penetrate 12" to 14", and each will expand violently. Which one do you want? The big one, or the medium one?

Now, if your in a profession that requires you to shoot through car doors and windshields, by all means take the 10mm! For the rest of us in the real world, I believe the .45 ACP is a (slightly) superior option. No amount of 10mm talk will change my mind (and trust me, I have heard it all). The main thing for me is that the .45 is bigger going in, and it goes from there.

I have read the ballistics on the 10mm DoubleTap loads, and was impressed. However, I am not convinced you would achieve that kind of expansion in real life. For one thing, not all people are 14" deep! You might get half the expansion in someone more "shallow". And here is where the .45 is king. I mean if the bad guy is some skinny little crackhead you might end up with a .40 cal hole going in, and a .40 cal hole going out. At least with the .45 you have a round that is time proven in it's ball configuration.

That's my opinion.
;) ;c

[Never2many]

The .45 ACP with it's 230gr bullet is the most proven manstopper in the auto cartridge world.

sorry, 9mm would easily take that title over the .45, the .357Mag would still be next in line over the .45

Think of it this way...Pull a bullet from a 10mm round, and one from a .45 ACP. Look at the two side by side. Now consider when each is driven at it's respective velocity, each will penetrate 12" to 14", and each will expand violently. Which one do you want? The big one, or the medium one?

Are you using FMJ bullets in your gun? If so, then your right... the .45 makes a bigger hole, now show me how many JHP .45's open up to over an inch after they expand. Very few, all in +P and none all the time. Take a 165Gr DT Gold dot at 1.02 inch expansion to his best expanding .45, the 230 grain at .95 inch. So now you have a bigger hole, a gun that can carry more rounds and penitrate through other objects better then the .45 can.

[357S]

Originally posted by MPG1737
The .45 ACP with it's 230gr bullet is the most proven manstopper in the auto cartridge world. The 10mm is a relative newcomer, and does not have much of a track record. You say the FBI obviously didn't feel comfortable with it? That's BS. The development of the 10mm was never due to the .45 being an insufficient cartridge. And not because it was "too slow".;Q

As I said before, I think the 10mm is a good cartridge. But I am not at all convinced it is a superior manstopper to the .45 . Since I do not subscribe to the "speed kills" theory of stopping power (concerning handgun velocities), a .40 caliber bullet going somewhat faster than a heavier .45 cal bullet is not at any advantage.

Unless we are discussing hunting/field use, where additional penetration is often required. This is where the 10mm has an advantage.

Think of it this way...Pull a bullet from a 10mm round, and one from a .45 ACP. Look at the two side by side. Now consider when each is driven at it's respective velocity, each will penetrate 12" to 14", and each will expand violently. Which one do you want? The big one, or the medium one?

Now, if your in a profession that requires you to shoot through car doors and windshields, by all means take the 10mm! For the rest of us in the real world, I believe the .45 ACP is a (slightly) superior option. No amount of 10mm talk will change my mind (and trust me, I have heard it all). The main thing for me is that the .45 is bigger going in, and it goes from there.

I have read the ballistics on the 10mm DoubleTap loads, and was impressed. However, I am not convinced you would achieve that kind of expansion in real life. For one thing, not all people are 14" deep! You might get half the expansion in someone more "shallow". And here is where the .45 is king. I mean if the bad guy is some skinny little crackhead you might end up with a .40 cal hole going in, and a .40 cal hole going out. At least with the .45 you have a round that is time proven in it's ball configuration.

That's my opinion.
;) ;c

That is so wrong I dont know where to begin. The facts are, the FBI developed the 10mm. WHY did they spend all that time and money if .45 is superior?

"Now, if your in a profession that requires you to shoot through car doors and windshields, by all means take the 10mm! For the rest of us in the real world..."

That is such an ignorant statement. So if you are attacked in your
car, I guess your gonna throw your hands up and say "my gun wont perform under these conditions so I give up." BAM your dead! HA HA. Do some more reading about "the real world" before you get yourself killed. ;g

[357S]

Originally posted by Never2many
sorry, 9mm would easily take that title over the .45, the .357Mag would still be next in line over the .45



Are you using FMJ bullets in your gun? If so, then your right... the .45 makes a bigger hole, now show me how many JHP .45's open up to over an inch after they expand. Very few, all in +P and none all the time. Take a 165Gr DT Gold dot at 1.02 inch expansion to his best expanding .45, the 230 grain at .95 inch. So now you have a bigger hole, a gun that can carry more rounds and penitrate through other objects better then the .45 can.

Hey now, thats not "the real world." :)

[Jitterbug]

VERSATILITY

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by 357S
That is so wrong I dont know where to begin. The facts are, the FBI developed the 10mm. WHY did they spend all that time and money if .45 is superior?

"Now, if your in a profession that requires you to shoot through car doors and windshields, by all means take the 10mm! For the rest of us in the real world..."

That is such an ignorant statement. So if you are attacked in your
car, I guess your gonna throw your hands up and say "my gun wont perform under these conditions so I give up." BAM your dead! HA HA. Do some more reading about "the real world" before you get yourself killed. ;g

;z Whatever you say buddy...

I think your last paragragh is among the most ridiculous things I have ever read on GT. Yeah I'm going to say "my gun wont perform under these conditions so I give up.". What are you smoking?

I realize your quite the 10mm fanboy but that doesn't make you right. I too have advocated the 10mm, and in fact I still am a fan. I just don't think it is at an advantage against bipeds. As I said earlier, people are not always as deep as a block of jello wearing a jean jacket. If gel tests make you all 10mm giddy, good for you.

In the meantime don't lose any sleep over it. Both the 10mm, and .45 ACP are good cartridges. Just because the 10mm is out there does not mean the .45 ACP doesn't work anymore..and it's not so feeble against auto glass that I am going to throw my hands up in surrender if I am ever carjacked...;Q

It is one thing to be enthusiastic about your favorite caliber. It is another to be an overzealous a**h***.

[noway]

{ The FBI obviously didnt feel comfortable with the .45, otherwise 10mm wouldn't have been developed }

i keep on seeing this, the FBI had nothing todo with the 10 milli meter being developed. The 10mm was developed years before the FBI shoot out & resulting FBI qualifications and nor was it "developed" with the FBI in mind. It was another service cartride out their on the market in a semi-auto format.

Also one other thing on the silly debate of the FBI and the penetration and barrier testings, did you know the FBI hostage & rescue teams commonly known as HRT or the FBI version of SWAT, they use guess what caliber. I'll give you a hint it starts with 4 and ends with 5 a have the 3 letter abbrs of a c p.

The 45auto with the right load combo is fine for barrier performance, bullets have came aloooong way since the 80s. The Miami shootout, help the FBI set criteria on testing to make certain a specific "round" is up to par for a LEO aspect. 9mm/10mm/45acp/40sw/357sig all have something to offer in these area and some are slightly better in some areas. In the end, they are do the same.

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by noway
{ The FBI obviously didnt feel comfortable with the .45, otherwise 10mm wouldn't have been developed }

i keep on seeing this, the FBI had nothing todo with the 10 milli meter being developed. The 10mm was developed years before the FBI shoot out & resulting FBI qualifications and nor was it "developed" with the FBI in mind. It was another service cartride out their on the market in a semi-auto format.

Also one other thing on the silly debate of the FBI and the penetration and barrier testings, did you know the FBI hostage & rescue teams commonly known as HRT or the FBI version of SWAT, they use guess what caliber. I'll give you a hint it starts with 4 and ends with 5 a have the 3 letter abbrs of a c p.

The 45auto with the right load combo is fine for barrier performance, bullets have came aloooong way since the 80s. The Miami shootout, help the FBI set criteria on testing to make certain a specific "round" is up to par for a LEO aspect. 9mm/10mm/45acp/40sw/357sig all have something to offer in these area and some are slightly better in some areas. In the end, they are do the same.

Thank you. And ^6

[MPG1737]

Actually no. A higher death toll in the annals of history does not make the 9x19 a superior manstopper. It makes it a NATO standard cartridge. ;Q

More use = more deaths. Get it?

[Never2many]

The .45 ACP with it's 230gr bullet is the most proven manstopper in the auto cartridge world.

Actually no. A higher death toll in the annals of history does not make the 9x19 a superior manstopper. It makes it a NATO standard cartridge.

More use = more deaths. Get it?

No, I don't think you get it... re-read your first comment, the .45ACP is not used world wide, you have data backing up the fact that the 9mm which "is" used world wide isn't a better manstopper? Where is your data backing up your statement?

But again, like my signature says, caliber opinions are like ahole's... everyone has one. Shoot what you use best, hope it works for you if you ever need to use it.

[MPG1737]

By "auto cartridge world" I was not reffering to it's use "worldwide". ;5

[Never2many]

By "auto cartridge world" I was not reffering to it's use "worldwide"

Still no data backing up your statement that the .45 is the most proven manstopper in the auto cartiage "world"? Didn't think so... ;Q

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by Never2many
Still no data backing up your statement that the .45 is the most proven manstopper in the auto cartiage "world"? Didn't think so... ;Q

Sorry, but you misconstrued what I said. ;)

I don't have any data. I only know what I have read, and heard throughout the years. Stories I have heard from war veterans, and admittedly biased reports as well as ballistics, and street reports.

What data do you have to back up your statement that the 9mm is a better stopper than the .45?

That's a better question...

Or better yet..let's agree to disagree, as we obviously do (disagree).;c

[Never2many]

You backed up my data for me... the 9mm is used in more guns in the world then the .45 ever will... simple math says it has taken more lives. You're stating in your opinion the .45ACP is the best manstopper and since thats your opinion, then you are entitled to it, but it's not proven ;)

I'll agree to disagree :) as I said earlier, use what you shoot best and hope it works if you ever need to use it. I don't question at all that either a 10mm or .45 will do it's intended job if you are able to hit what your aiming for.

[Ghast]

This has been fun, if anyone else wants to throw in with why they picked the 10mm or specifically what they feel it's shortcommings are, I hope they will.

I personally don't like the 45acp, but I aknowledge(sp?) the usefulness of a cartrige that has performed in some of the nastiest places on the planet. As to using popularity with LEO as a basis for judging the effectivenes of a cartrige; A friend of mine is a cop, and he carries a 1911. He couldn't quote a single performance stat for the 45 or any other caliber, he carries a 45 because it's THE 45. Period. I wonder how many other officers and units carry it for the same reason.

Secondly, isn't a goal of most law enforcement, even swat and hrt's to achive non fatal shootings. Correct me if I'm wrong.

357s, you're correcting someone using false information, you must work for the White House. ;K

[noway]

{Secondly, isn't a goal of most law enforcement, even swat and hrt's to achive non fatal shootings. Correct me if I'm wrong.
}
Your got to be kidding ?

if not, Now that's the funniest if not stupidest thing I heard today. NON fatal shootings.;z


the true is you shoot to stop the threat , death is normally the outcome.

[357S]

Originally posted by MPG1737
;z Whatever you say buddy...

I think your last paragragh is among the most ridiculous things I have ever read on GT. Yeah I'm going to say "my gun wont perform under these conditions so I give up.". What are you smoking?

I realize your quite the 10mm fanboy but that doesn't make you right. I too have advocated the 10mm, and in fact I still am a fan. I just don't think it is at an advantage against bipeds. As I said earlier, people are not always as deep as a block of jello wearing a jean jacket. If gel tests make you all 10mm giddy, good for you.

In the meantime don't lose any sleep over it. Both the 10mm, and .45 ACP are good cartridges. Just because the 10mm is out there does not mean the .45 ACP doesn't work anymore..and it's not so feeble against auto glass that I am going to throw my hands up in surrender if I am ever carjacked...;Q

It is one thing to be enthusiastic about your favorite caliber. It is another to be an overzealous a**h***.

Good luck shooting through your window with that big slow .45 . After they get through you sure wont have any expansion. Who are you callin boy? Son, I was going into highschool while you were in diapers. Try again.

[357S]

Originally posted by Ghast

357s, you're correcting someone using false information, you must work for the White House. ;K

And that would be what?

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by 357S
Good luck shooting through your window with that big slow .45 . After they get through you sure wont have any expansion. Who are you callin boy? Son, I was going into highschool while you were in diapers. Try again.

Yeah the 230gr Ranger T +P is known for it's awful penetration/expansion through auto glass. ;Q Get real.

Have you ever been to ammolab.com?

[357S]

Originally posted by noway
{ The FBI obviously didnt feel comfortable with the .45, otherwise 10mm wouldn't have been developed }

i keep on seeing this, the FBI had nothing todo with the 10 milli meter being developed. The 10mm was developed years before the FBI shoot out & resulting FBI qualifications and nor was it "developed" with the FBI in mind. It was another service cartride out their on the market in a semi-auto format.

Also one other thing on the silly debate of the FBI and the penetration and barrier testings, did you know the FBI hostage & rescue teams commonly known as HRT or the FBI version of SWAT, they use guess what caliber. I'll give you a hint it starts with 4 and ends with 5 a have the 3 letter abbrs of a c p.

The 45auto with the right load combo is fine for barrier performance, bullets have came aloooong way since the 80s. The Miami shootout, help the FBI set criteria on testing to make certain a specific "round" is up to par for a LEO aspect. 9mm/10mm/45acp/40sw/357sig all have something to offer in these area and some are slightly better in some areas. In the end, they are do the same.

Do you have any links to the FBI HRT data.

[357S]

Originally posted by MPG1737
Yeah the 230gr Ranger T +P is known for it's awful penetration/expansion through auto glass. ;Q Get real.

Have you ever been to ammolab.com?

Yeah +P. Cause the standard pressures dont get it done. You never said anything about .45 +P. That is an entirely different animal IMO. I have nothing against hot .45+p , I would use it myself.

[MPG1737]

357S, Do you work in a gun shop by chance?

[357S]

For the last time, you have to be 18 to buy a gun. Sorry. ;g

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by 357S
For the last time, you have to be 18 to buy a gun. Sorry. ;g

;z Ok. Well anyways I have said all I needed to say here. No hard feelings. ;Y

BTW The G29 has been on my short list for about a month..;)

[357S]

The 29's a great gun, as is the 30. Cheers buddy. ;c

[HK45Mark23]

Originally posted by SilverState

My solution is to use a lighter weight hollow point gold dot bullet (135 gr @ 1600fps or 165 gr @ 1400fps). With the higher velocity and the hollow point design, the bullet tends to fragment in the body, which is what you want in a self defense round.

What ammo manufacture are you referring to that produces this high performance product?

I prefer Cor-Bon. I am currently carrying a Cor-Bon Special ordered ammunition. I have about 200 rounds of 10mm 180 gr. JHP @ 1300 fps.

That round is a hunting round that is offered in the bonded core soft point.

I called and asked for the same 180 gr. @ 1300 in Jacketed Hollow Point. This round produces 675 ft. lbs. energy.

The ones you are referring to (135 gr. @ 1600fps or 165 gr. @ 1400fps) produce 767 ft. lbs. energy for the 135 gr. and 718 ft. lbs. energy for the 165 gr.

I am interested in this level of ballistics and who produces it.

Who are the best and highest rated 10 mm ammunition manufacturers?

Who has the ultimate high velocity and heaviest slugs?

Who is producing the highest energy discharges and deepest penetrations?

Thanks!

HK45Mark23

[Bullman]

Your best source for 10mm ammo is www.doubletapammo.com/


Reeds is a good source as well

https://securewsch01.websitecomplete.com/reed1911/shop/showDept.asp?dept=1430

[Ghast]

Morning everyone,

HK45Mark23,
What ammo manufacture are you referring to that produces this high performance product?

I can't speak for silverstate but, I would imagine he's refering to Double Tap as Bullman suggested. Mike produces rounds with those numbers.



357s: And that would be what?

Sorry, should have quoted you. Here you go.
That is so wrong I dont know where to begin. The facts are, the FBI developed the 10mm. WHY did they spend all that time and money if .45 is superior?

About all the FBI did to the 10mm was emasculate it.

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by 357S
The 29's a great gun, as is the 30. Cheers buddy. ;c

;Y

[Wallygator]

Well after all the hubbabaloo I'll throw in a few opinions of my own. The 10mm is better (as is the 9mm) than the train stopping, almighty mountain collapsing .45 ACP. Of course .45 +p is on par with the 9mm +p but I'll still take the 10mm over either one of those. Flame away.

We are just talking about pistol caliburs here so whatever you can shoot well with and place your shots where they will stop the threat is the best one.


Oh yeah and..........................



http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/mww1968/arguing01.jpg

I hate this picture but it fits in this thread for sure.

[noway]

{Do you have any links to the FBI HRT data.}

Nope i just have a few magazines ytalking about the FBI/HRT seelction for a handgun. i do no they where very picky on the selection an is oneof the most harddest SWAt team to get accepted in.



here's their main page on the web;

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/isd/cirg/tact.htm

[ColoradoGlocker]

.

[MPG1737]

;V;z

[Ghast]

MPG1737, put your hand down, you won't be called on again.

I started this thread to ask some specific questions about the 10mm, not so you could overcompensate for the shortcomings of your pet caliber.

For everyone who has stayed on topic, thanks. This is exactly what I'm looking for.

[Wallygator]

Originally posted by MPG1737
;V;z


Yes, but barely.;c


:)

[susan28]

i'm another like Bullman who comes from the .357 camp. i bought my first revolver 15 years ago in .357 because the guy at the shop said it had the best stopping power, was what the police used etc. i'd gone in asking for .44 by name (being an old lady and therefore inspired by Dirty Harry rather than Sonny Crocket), but the store guy managed to rein me in a bit, lol..

so a year ago i decided to try out an autopistol, and though there was .357 sig, also saw 10mm in Glock's calibre list, and did some research, saw that it was a lil bigger and a lil hotter but similar kick to my old revolver, then came here and saw Mike's ballistics tables and asked his advice, and he told me the loads he used for SD (135 and 165 GD), so i got a G20 and some DT and never looked back.

i also owe a debt of gratitude to Gary Napolitano (search the web on Gnappi to find his site) who has a HUGE 10mm info site, and invited me to the local range to try his Delta and G20. i found i shot the Delta better and just got one.

what would cause me to switch would be if they stopped making it :)

[SilverState]

Originally posted by HK45Mark23
What ammo manufacture are you referring to that produces this high performance product?

I prefer Cor-Bon. I am currently carrying a Cor-Bon Special ordered ammunition. I have about 200 rounds of 10mm 180 gr. JHP @ 1300 fps.

That round is a hunting round that is offered in the bonded core soft point.

I called and asked for the same 180 gr. @ 1300 in Jacketed Hollow Point. This round produces 675 ft. lbs. energy.

The ones you are referring to (135 gr. @ 1600fps or 165 gr. @ 1400fps) produce 767 ft. lbs. energy for the 135 gr. and 718 ft. lbs. energy for the 165 gr.

I am interested in this level of ballistics and who produces it.

Who are the best and highest rated 10 mm ammunition manufacturers?

Who has the ultimate high velocity and heaviest slugs?

Who is producing the highest energy discharges and deepest penetrations?

Thanks!

HK45Mark23

Answer: Double Tap Ammo

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25

[biere]

This forum taught me about the 10mm round and how flexable it happens to be.

Find me another round with the flexability and numerous platforms available and I might consider it if it outperforms the 10mm enough.

For my simple needs of ccw, plinking, varminting, and maybe competition the 10mm excells in each area.

I have used several different calibers in several styles of guns and I have decided that a 1911 in 10mm is able to do what I need in all categories.

I can reload one round and simplify things, and since I am moving soon this lets me move less stuff and that is always a good thing.

[Bullman]

Well said, but if it is all the same, I wish we could have some more platforms to work with.:)

[HK45Mark23]

I personally think that the HK, Sig Sauer and Glock are hands down the best guns out of the box. Really there is nothing you have to do to them. They are match grade up on arrival. I wish we would see a Sig Sauer and an HK chambered in 10 mm.

HK45Mrk23

[Wallygator]

Originally posted by Bullman
Well said, but if it is all the same, I wish we could have some more platforms to work with.:)


X2. I would like to see more platforms also. I really want a revolver in 10mm. I've been trying to find a S&W 610 4" forever with no success. When one comes available the funds aren't there. Even though I don't really like Taurus I would buy a Taurus revolver in 10mm. FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, SOMEONE BRING OUT A 10MM REVOLVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^9

[MPG1737]

Originally posted by Wallygator
X2. I would like to see more platforms also. I really want a revolver in 10mm. I've been trying to find a S&W 610 4" forever with no success. When one comes available the funds aren't there. Even though I don't really like Taurus I would buy a Taurus revolver in 10mm. FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, SOMEONE BRING OUT A 10MM REVOLVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^9


The reason you don't see many 10mm revolvers is simple.


.41 Magnum.

[Glolt20-91]

I come from a background that includes .357mag duty issue and it worked very well with those who needed to use it. I'm also a big fan of slabside .45acp and have a very good shooter Colt M1991 combat/target - very fast and accurate.

I enjoy hiking and a couple of years ago found myself on a So. Nevada trail that was also being used by Russian boars and I felt undergunned with the 200gr Gold Dots in .45acp

Hiking in this part of Arizona are a high concentration of black bears and mountain lions - which can usually be scared away. However, what bothers me is packs of feral dogs that are able to bring down cattle like a lion can do.

The more I researched for a trail gun, the more the 10mm began to shine; it has the best of both worlds of .357 and .45acp combined in a double stack magazine. I'd never owned a Glock, but I know it's a quality company and had no qualms about ordering a G20 sight unseen.

I'm very happy with the versatility of the 10mm as I handload and can load for a variety of situations. While practicing with my 300WSM at 100 meters; I couldn't resist the temptation of trying out the Glock at that distance and on the second round hit the "X" ring.

The nice thing about the 10mm is that it has about the same amount of energy at 100 yards as the 9mm and .45acp with Gold Dots (180, 124, 185grs) do at muzzle - Speer 13.

Anyway, that's the reason I chose to buy a 10mm and I'm very surprised that it isn't more popular - however, word of mouth is very good advertising. :)

Adios,
Bob