.45 Super vs. 10mm for hunting

[3MartiniLunch]

The recent $2000 to buy Glocks thread, and the one here about busting milk jugs have me thinking....
I eventually want a .45 (Glock or otherwise) for home defense/open carry in the woods.
I'd also like to hunt deer with a handgun at some point. So I was thinking a G20 with the 6" hunting bbl; or maybe a Ruger .44 mag.
I don't reload, and I have no other use for a 10mm or .44, especially considering ammo cost. I carry a G23. Someday I want a 1911.
Since I haven't won $2000 to spend on Glocks, possibly I might economize and buy only a Glock 21. Shoot .45 ACP at BGs, and .45 Super at big game.
Will the .45 Super do the job on whitetails up to about 50 yds as well as the 10mm? Are aftermarket Glock 6" barrels available for .45 super/.45 +P like they are in 10mm? Will a quality 1911 be able to handle .45 super? Consider factory loads only..I don't plan on getting into reloading for a long time if ever.
thanks in advance for the advice!

[turbonatr]

Using factory 45 Super Express, you will have over 500ft/lbs at 100 yards. 6" barrels for the G21 can be found at www.barsto.com www.glockmeister.com and www.lonewolfdist.com Lone Wolf has them for about $150. 45 Super Express will push a 230gr. slug to 1300fps from a ported 6" barrel...more from an unported barrel. No factory 10mm ammo will match this. Properly set up, yes, a 1911 will handle the 45 SUper, although it takes more doing than a G21 or G30. FOr the Glocks, only a recoil spring upgrade is needed. And yes, .45acp and +P loads can be fired from the same barrel.

Bottom line, yes, the 45 Super will do a great job at taking game in the field out to 50 yards...and beyond.

[CastleBravo]

A small clarification and comment on 10mm vs .45 Super:

Actually, the 230gr Super Express load is 230gr XTP at 1200 FPS/735 ft-lbs from the 6" SA V-16 as advertised by Texas Ammunition Co. Of course, actual chrono results might differ.

Cor-Bon 180gr JSP has been clocked at over 1400 FPS and 800 ft-lbs from a 6" KKM barrel. Since a 180gr 10mm bullet has the same sectional density as a 230gr .45 bullet penetration would be about the same too, if not slightly higher for the 10mm. So, ahem, 10mm Ammo WILL match those figures. ;p

[PACKIN' PLASTIC]

The 10mm can get hotter, the .45 gets pretty well maxed at around 1,000 ft/lbs but the 10mm can soar farther. Buy they are both O.K. choices for close in deer.

PP

[turbonatr]

CB,
By matching figures, I meant pushing a same weight bullet to the same velocity...which is an indication of power. Also, the V16 has something like 12 pots in it's barrel, making it a 5" barrel for all intents and purposes. Surely, a non-ported 6" barrel will yield higher velocities. Actually, I will let you know for sure when my non-ported 6" G21 barrel comes in. I am willing to bet a non-ported barrel will probably reach "Express" velocities, and the actual Express 45 Super will reach 180gr. 10mm velocities, but with a heavier 230gr. bullet. Also, comparing a 180gr. JSP 10mm to a 230gr. JHP .45 is apples to oranges, regardless of sectional density, as the bullet type and construction are both different.

Of course, all this really doesn't mean crap when taking game.;f

[turbonatr]

Originally posted by PACKIN' PLASTIC
The 10mm can get hotter, the .45 gets pretty well maxed at around 1,000 ft/lbs but the 10mm can soar farther. Buy they are both O.K. choices for close in deer.

PP

Go to Caliber Corner and run a search for 45 Super using user name "Recoil". You will see chrono data for Recoil's 45 Super handloads reaching into the 1500fps range. Factory 45 Super is nothing compared to where handloading can take it.

Anyway, the point of this thread is either cartridge will take deer if you use them within their means. The 45 Super will give you the option of heavier slugs, which may or may not be a factor on deer-size game. A buddy of mine handload for both cartridges and is also a handgun hunter and prefers the 45 Super due to heavier slugs pushed to 10mm velocities. He uses a G21 as a launching platform.

BTW, I don't know many people who would take an auto cartridge past 1000ft/lbs in pistol length barrels by handloading. Doing so doesn't really say much for the cartridge as they are surely taking them past their recommended pressure limits, if not the limits of the gun.

[3MartiniLunch]

thanks guys...great info. Looks like a G21/6" bbl/.45 super is in my future (2002 deer season).
any more particular factory loads that would be best for deer?
a couple more things: What sight systems are commonly used on a hunting G21? I was thinking a set of Heinie Straight Eights (since the G21 will double as a HD gun). Will POI likely be the same with the factory barrel and the 6" drop in? I kindof doubt it. Are there red dot scopes available for autos? And how the heck do you mount one?

[turbonatr]

Any 200gr. or heavier 45 Super load should work fine on deer if you keep it within a reasonable range. I expect my 6" barrel for my G21C to be in this week, so I will be able to give you chrono data on a few Super loads soon. Heck, I would think with a 6" barrel, even a +P 200gr. Gold Dot would work. Of course, shot placement is always important.

I would say the most used sight sytem used on a hunting auto loader is a red dot sight. Many are available with many different options and reticles. Another popular sight is the Tasco Optima. Check www.glockmeister.com www.topglock.com and www.lonewolfdist.com for various mounts and sights for you G21.

[JGO]

Originally posted by CastleBravo


Since a 180gr 10mm bullet has the same sectional density as a 230gr .45 bullet penetration would be about the same too, if not slightly higher for the 10mm. ;p

CastleBravo,

1. How do you measure sectional density?
2. Have you ever dealt with Texas Ammunition? I can't get them to even answer an email.

[turbonatr]

JGO,
Take a look at this link. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs27.htm

BTW, I have dealt with Texas Ammo, great people and also a Glock Talk sponsor. I must say, though, it does take them some time to return an email.

[3MartiniLunch]

heh heh...my Christmas list is done.

isn't sectional density just bullet weight divided by caliber squared(times some conversion factor of course)?

caliber *squared*, yeah, that's what I meant.

[3MartiniLunch]

hey turbonatr..
you planning to hunt in PA with your Glock?
I don't think they allow semiautomatics.

[turbonatr]

Friend of mine owns a pretty large farm. A few times a year he invites a few guys to the farm to take some pigs. I plan on giving the Glocks a shot (no pun intended) there.

[3MartiniLunch]

pigs, as in, feral?
I didn't realize there were any in the Northeast.

[turbonatr]

Well, it's a pig farm. He just lets us take a few a couple times out of the year.

[3MartiniLunch]

ahhhh I see.
there will be a performance report, I trust?

[turbonatr]

Originally posted by 3MartiniLunch
ahhhh I see.
there will be a performance report, I trust?

You Dawgs will be the first to know.:)

[turbonatr]

As expected, my non-ported 6" barrel pushed standard factory 45 Super to near 45 Super Express velocities. Without a doubt, the non-ported barrel will push the 45 Super Express passed they're advertised velocities.

185gr. Super went 1347fps..Super Express is advertised at 1400fps.

200gr. Super went 1274fps...Super Express is advertised at 1300fps.

The 185gr. Tactical went 1240fps, actual 45 Super 185gr. is advertised at 1300fps. It got too late to chrono the rest I had planned on, but i'll get to it tomorrow. I still have the 230gr. Tactical, 230gr. Super and 200gr.+P Gold Dots to chrono. All in all, these are some pretty decent numbers from watered down factory 45 Super.

[Glockrocks]

Turbonater,
What brand of 6" non-ported barrel did you get? I'm sure gonna get me one.
Thanks,
Glockrocks

[3MartiniLunch]

do the ammo manufacturers publish energy stats. for a 6" barrel for the .45 +P loads?
I see you're getting above 700 ft-lbs for the .45 Super.
I think MD (or maybe it's VA) requires a 6" bbl and 700 ft-lbs muzzle energy for hunting handguns. Reg doesn't say where the 700 ft-lbs stat comes from, but I assume they mean published data from the manufacturer, or from a loading manual.

[turbonatr]

My barrel is from www.lonewolfdist.com JR is an excellent guy to deal with. Absolutely second to none!!! It is the stainless, Lone Wolf 6" non-ported barrel.

Most manufactures use 5" barrels as standard practice to establish advertised muzzle velocities for the .45acp. Texas Ammo also uses the 5" barrel for their 45 Super, with the exception of their 45 Super Express, which is advertised from the Springfield V16's ported 6" barrel. Expect faster velocites from a non-ported 6" barrel.

Again, these are factory loads, which are on the light side for the 45 Super. Handloading will get you more power. GT member, "Recoil", has topped 1400fps shooting 185gr. slugs with easy using a shoter 5.5" barrel with his handloads. As you can see, the 45 Super has excellent potential.

[Glockrocks]

Thanks Turbo,
I live in West Texas where there are plenty of feral hogs. A firefighter that I work with makes good money booking hunting trips for them on his days off. A week or so ago he had Ted Nugent and a few of his friends down and they bow hunted for some. My friend said Ted shot a hog with his bow and the hog turned and came at him. He said Ted dropped his bow and pulled his Glock and very quickly put 3 rounds into the hog, stopping him about 20 yards away. Said he knew he was hitting him every time because he saw dust puff up on his forehead every shot.
Anyway, I am going to order a 6" barrel and some 45 Super as soon as I can save up a little extra cash, then try it on a 400 lb. boar.

Thanks again,
Glockrocks

[turbonatr]

Glockrocks,

Go with the 230gr. 45 Super Express. The Express with give you another 100fps over the standard 45 Super. Good luck!

[CastleBravo]

Turbonatr,

Dang, I could have SWORN that I mentioned how the V-16 porting robbed the Super Express of some velocity... no argument there. :o

Comparing weight at speed between .45 Super vs 10mm Auto is kind of deceptive in the sense that a 185gr .45 Super isn't comparable in terms of sectional density (and therefore expected penetration, all else being equal) to a 180gr 10mm Auto. It is more analagous to a 135gr 10mm Auto. So they are really apples and oranges. My point was just that for comparisons that make sense (180gr 10mm vs 230gr .45 Super) the power levels are about the same. The only substantial edge for the .45 Super is that it is fatter. Not that that is a BAD thing by any stretch... :cool:

I seem to recall having dumb .45 Super vs 10mm arguments with Turbonatr all the time. He bought a Delta Elite. Nuff said. ;e

Really, it more or less boils down to personal preference. 10mm Auto is a more versatile caliber, but if you already have a .45 ACP going to .45 Super/.450 SMC for hella powerful blasting every once in a while is probably more sensible.

[turbonatr]

CB,

I understand the sectional density thing completely, always have. That is why I like the 124-135gr. 9mm, 165-180gr. 10mm and the 200gr. .45. I think these weights are the best comprimise between weight and speed. I never was a fan of the 185gr. .45, and i'm sure if you run a search, you will see I always promote the 200gr. +P loadings.

For defense against humans, I believe the 10mm to be the better pick over the 45 Super mainly because the 45 Super is harder to control given similar guns, even watered down factory 45 Super. I think even CorBons 10mm 180gr. load at 1300fps is easier to control than the 200 and 230gr. 45 Super loads. Indeed, a 200-230gr. .45 at 1150-1300fps will give you gobs of penetration, but is it really needed in a carry defense pistol given how hard it is to control compared to a +P .45 or 10mm? IMHO, no.

This thread isn't about humans, though, it's about hunting. As I said, for deer sized game, either will do the job. For larger animals, give me the 45 Super. I have some data from a Delta Elite and the original 200gr. Norma load, and a factory 230gr. 45 Super goes just as fast being 30gr. heavier. Also, I don't see how the 10mm is a more versatile cartridge. Either can be loaded with a range of bullet weights and types from 350 to 900+ft/lbs. The 10 can be loaded down to .40 power and the 45 Super can be loaded down to standard pressure .45acp power....or...all the way up to low end 44mag power. IMHO, that makes them pretty much equal in versatility.

Yes, I bought a Delta Elite and love it. I did so because I never had a problem with the 10mm, it is a fine cartridge. Tell you what, though. The gun cost me no more than a NIB Glock. How could I say no!!??;f

[CastleBravo]

Turbonatr,

I was talking more to the "general audience" out there than to you.

P.S. .45 Super is a dumb-ass wildcat that will blow yer arm off!! Get over your 10mm envy and accept that your .45 will be nothing but fat, slow and DUMB!!! ;p

[turbonatr]

There there, CB. WIth a little therapy, i'm sure you will turn out ok.;f

[bottleneck]

How have the Glock frames been handling the repeated firing of 45 super and 45 smc?I would like to see someone "mike" the frame rails and then compare it to an identical model that has fired the same number of 45 acp rounds.Maybe some other easy tests to check on wear could show the strengths and weakness of the polymer frame.TURBO,this is the perfect excuse to buy two more Glocks!

[turbonatr]

Originally posted by bottleneck
TURBO,this is the perfect excuse to buy two more Glocks!

If you're buying, i'm in!! Otherwise, my G21C and G30 are just fine. The G30 has been shoting 45 Super for years now, and is just as accurate and tight as it was the day I took it home from my FFL. I would think if they were getting beat up, accuracy would degrade and rattles and such would arise. Such is not the case.

[bottleneck]

Looks like the polymer frame is the way to go.Is there much difference between the 45 super express and the 45smc?In terms of velocity?

[turbonatr]

All we can go by velocity wise for 450SMC is advertised velocities as the stuff hasen't been released yet. Super Express velocites are as follows. The Hornady 185 Grain XTP-JHP loaded to 1400 fps (805 ft. lbs of muzzle energy); 200 Grain XTP-JHP at 1300 fps; and the 230 Grain XTP-JHP and FMJ-FP loaded to 1300 fps (722 ft. lbs of muzzle energy). This is from a heavily ported 6" barrel. A non-ported 6" barrel is sure to give you higher velocities. 450SMC pushes it's advertised velocities 50fps faster than advertised standard 45 Super speeds.

[Thegman]

What other 45's can handle the 45 Super without mods (other than heavier springs)? I'm wondering about the Ruger P90 and the S&W 4506. Anyone know?

[Polo]

If we're still on the topic of ".45 Super vs 10mm FOR HUNTING", here's a little interesting tidbit I found on a website:
__________________________
Danish Navy

Frømandskorpset

Slædepatrulj Sirius (Dogsled Patrol Sirius)

Some of the toughest members of Frømandskorpset are selected for dogsled-mounted, seven-month-long two-man patrols on Greenland. For hunting and against the ever-present polar bears, they are armed with 10×25mm Glock 20 pistols and 7.62×63mm (.30-06 Springfield) Winchester G M/53 bolt-action sniper rifles (Enfield-pattern M1917).
___________________________

;G Did read this right--they intend to protect themselves from POLAR BEARS with 10mm Autos??!!
Well, maybe there is something to the 10mm...

[WalterGA]

3Martini made it pretty clear that he's only interested in factory loads, so all that "interesting" information about nuclear handloads is irrelevant to this thead.

Don't forget .40 Super! 135gr. @ 1800 fps, for 925ft/lbs, out of a 5" barrel. Extremely accurate and flat shooting, with less recoil and muzzle flip than .45 Super. Shoots from a G21 frame, just fine.

[Washington,D.C.]

Factory 40 Super is getting difficult to find these days.

[Washington,D.C.]

I've never been able to get close to advertised velcities with 40 Super with factory ammo or handloads.It's hot but not nearly as hot as they claim.The factory rounds I took apart looked to have Power Pistol powder in them.It's not much hotter than 400 Corbon but that's plenty.