Help on what AR 15 brand?

[WildWest N AZ]

New to this weapon design market Ive always heard of Colt, Bushmaster, and Armalite but seem to be a bit pricey. I was looking at DPMS arms and it seemed like they had some nice stuff for alittle less than the others. What IM trying to get at is a know very little about what is good and bad on these builders, before I spend a bit of money on one and not have it work.;Q

[Bullman]

I have heard good things about Rock River Arms, they got a big fat government contract a while back. I took the advice of Gorelicks and decided to build my own. I am not really putting too much effort into the build, I bought a completed Stag lower receiver from here (http://www.eaglefirearms.net/stag_arms.htm) . I found another user here on Glock talk that had a Shorty stock that he wanted to sell so I got a bargain there, I have less than 200 bucks in my lower. That will change when I buy a single point receiver end plate for a single point sling, but you get the point, you can do it inexpensively if you want to. and I am told that Stag's quality is on par with most of the other makers. I guess I will find out.

[Ford302Glock21]

I was going to go with the Stag lower from eagle myself but I ended up getting a slightly used bushmaster because the deal just made it too good to pass.

Anyways, I believe the Stag lower is identical to the Rock River Arms lower with the only difference being a deer head engraved into it instead of whats on the RRA piece. Its supposed to be made by the SAME company who also makes some for other name brands so the quality is all the same. Its a good bit cheaper than the RRA complete lower on their site. It also costed the same to get the complete lower versus the stripped lower + parts kit so I say let them assemble it. Then they have cheaper uppers but I figured I'd want a different brand upper.

Moral of the story get the Stag for just the complete lower. If you want a match trigger, get the complete RRA lower w/ RRA match trigger because it ends up costing the same as the Stag lower w/ match trigger according to their prices. It doesnt make sense but its true.

[RMTactical]

RRA, Stag/CMT, Bushmaster, DPMS are some of the best bang for the buck, with RRA and Stag leading the pack, IMO.

Stag is the house brand for CMT, who makes most of the parts for Colt and RRA, just to name a couple.

[AtreidesAR15]

Getting a nice AR15 that "works" reliably isn't hard to do at all. You're right about the Colt's & Bushy's being pricey, but also try to keep in mind that these guys advertise suggested retail prices on their websites and you can get most models for much less than they are listed for.

Make sure to get FORGED recievers and not cast. Not many people are even making cast recievers anymore, but still, it's a good idea to stay away from them. The DPMS guns are ok. A buddy of mine just bought a "Tuber" from them and the gun shoots well. It looks, uh different, but it shoots nice and without problems so far. All in all it's a decent looking rifle. Time will tell if it is durable as well.

The others brought up building your own AR15, and if it's a bargain you are looking for this is a way to get one. It is very EASY to do, even if it may sound like a big deal. Simply buying a complete upper & lower won't save you a LOT of money, but building from scratch will, and it will give you some valueable experience with the inner workings of your rifle. As mentioned, STAG ARMS offers a great very good price on both their uppers and lowers. Mixing and matching parts to build an AR15 isn't that hard to do either and there's nothing wrong with mating one brands upper to anothers lower as long as they are quality pieces. The better brands build their parts to common specifications so most of the top brand pieces to inter-change with each other. This might not be a good idea if you have re-sale on your mind, but for a SHOOTER it may just be the cheapest way to go.

Building from scratch also allows you to put your money where it's best served...like in the barrel for instance. In my opinion the Bolt & Barrel are the heart of a good AR and it wouldn't be a bad idea in spending a little more money into these two pieces. All recievers are about the same (as long as they are forged). They hold everything together, and as long as they can do that, they're good to go. With that in mind, the only difference between one reciever and another is the stamp on it's side, that's it.(Again, just my opinion). Next in line would be triggers, but again if it's a SHOOTER you are aiming to build, any lower parts kit will do, just stick to the known manefacterers when buying. Stay away from those no-name kits, those things are like a box 'o chocolates.

Good luck on your search. If it's a complete rifle you want, my recommendation goes to Bushmaster. Best bang for the buck, well known brand name with a high re-sale value. For your average carbine expect to spend around $850.00 brand new.

With that, I just saw a complete STAG M4 type Carbone going for $800.00, so for $50.00 more you can get one of the top brand names. I have no doubt that the STAG shoots just as good as any Bushmaster so the extra $50.00 would be spent on a brand name, IF the STAG comes with a chrome lined barrel made out of 4150 steel.;f

[WildWest N AZ]

Thank you for the info, Im most likely going to get a Bushmaster but do they come with what you advised a forged reciever and a chrome barrel in that price range? What Im planning on using it for is those three gun comps. So all I would do to it is some trigger work and a red dot sight.

[RMTactical]

Yes, they do.

In fact, most companies do forged and not cast receivers

But if you bought a RRA, you could get it cheaper and the even come with a 2-stage trigger, which is worth about $90 alone.

You may not want chrome if you are gonna be in competition shooting, as it takes slightly from accuracy.

You could buy a complete Stag upper and a complete Stag lower (essentially a complete Stag M4 carbine) for about $690. If you really want to save money and still have quality, that's what I would buy.

From here www.eaglefirearms.net

[Mail Clerk]

Originally posted by WildWest N AZ
New to this weapon design market Ive always heard of Colt, Bushmaster, and Armalite but seem to be a bit pricey. I was looking at DPMS arms and it seemed like they had some nice stuff for alittle less than the others. What IM trying to get at is a know very little about what is good and bad on these builders, before I spend a bit of money on one and not have it work.;Q


Wildwest N AZ,

Now a days I'd consider all of them to be good quality. How the Army test them for worthyness in the battle field is questionable and why certain ones don't make the grade Who knows. For the general usage by you and I they're all good. I mean the material is ll the same except for the name? For your first one get whatever is the cheapest for your budget. It is
adicting so be prepared.

Mail Clerk

[SKeefe]

Originally posted by WildWest N AZ
New to this weapon design market Ive always heard of Colt, Bushmaster, and Armalite but seem to be a bit pricey.
What are you considering "pricey?"

AIM Surplus (www.aimsurplus.com) has new Bushmasters at around $800 right now.

[WildWest N AZ]

Over a 1000.00 pricey, Im between Bush or RRA but Ill I really want on it is flip down sights and and a flat top or no handle I have no need for it. I do like the two stage trigger rra has though. To many choices good lord!

[AtreidesAR15]

Originally posted by WildWest N AZ
Thank you for the info, Im most likely going to get a Bushmaster but do they come with what you advised a forged reciever and a chrome barrel in that price range? What Im planning on using it for is those three gun comps. So all I would do to it is some trigger work and a red dot sight.

As Gorelicks said, they sure do. Also, Bushmaster uses 4150 steel for their barrels while RRA uses 4140 steel. Something else to think about. With a $1K and below budget you can really get yourself a GOOD GOOD weapon.

This gun would be a good foundation, and you could probably get it for around $800.00 - $850.00

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwvms16ah.asp

Still, if you want to get a 2 stage trigger (Alot of people like them, I don't, not on an AR15 anyway) and a Red Dot sight as well and still come under your $1K budget, a Complete Bushmaster is out of the question. Maybe a Bushmaster "build" but not a complete gun.

I don't know if Stag offers a upper without a front sight assy, so if you wanted flip-up irons you would need to buy a gas-block as well as the flip-up sight. But gas blocks are relatively cheap considering. It would just be a matter of taking off the front sight and replacing it with the new gas block.

As far as optics go, there are only 3 sights to choose from as far as I am concerned: Aimpoint ML2, Eotech 512, or a Trijicon ACOG. (the last being ridiculously high priced). Out of the 3 the Eotech has the largest sight window, a 1MOA center dot for far shots, and a large 12MOA ring around the center dot for the FAST stuff. I own both the Aimpoint & Eotech and have shot alot through a ACOG and the Eotech is the fastest of the 3.

I am NOT a Big fan of RRA's 2 stage trigger. My M4 currently has that setup in it. I was not very impressed with the feel of the trigger in stock form. I've heard that most people get their RRA triggers worked on, but I forget by who. Anyway, the RRA 2 stage feels sloppy to me. Too much play and the break itself is "soft" not crisp. My Chip McCormick single stage drop in straight trigger feels a TON better in my opinion and has a super fast reset. LOVE IT. I've been told that Single Stage triggers SUCK for combat/competition guns so take my recommendation with a grain of salt.

[WildWest N AZ]

Here is my problem I like that gun you showed me except the stock, Im looking for one with the adjustable stock for easier carry. Bushmaster has a ton of those models so what one do I choose in that price range? Most likely I will spend the extra cash on the sights ect but can your FFl dealer order from Bushmaster the way you want it or is that something you have to do down the road, it would be easier for me just to have the way I want it from the factory.

[OutintheWoods]

Want a former Marines opinion?

Unless you want a target rifle that you are very fond of cleaning that will also do double duty as a security weapon, get an SU-16C, mount a phantom on it, a rudimentary sling, and perhaps an optic and save your money.

Then laugh at the rest of the crowd carrying those heavy, overpriced target rifles that they are afraid of getting dirty.

P.S. And don't clean or lube it but every 500 rounds or so. It works better that way.

[Riflemanz]

Buy the Rock River Entry Tactical rifle.I love mine!

[WildWest N AZ]

What kind of rifle is this SU-16C?
Always like to hear about a rifle that likes being unclean!:cool:

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by OutintheWoods
Want a former Marines opinion?

Unless you want a target rifle that you are very fond of cleaning that will also do double duty as a security weapon, get an SU-16C, mount a phantom on it, a rudimentary sling, and perhaps an optic and save your money.

Then laugh at the rest of the crowd carrying those heavy, overpriced target rifles that they are afraid of getting dirty.

P.S. And don't clean or lube it but every 500 rounds or so. It works better that way.

Afraid of getting dirty? I hump my AR's all around the desert and they get plenty dirty.

I could go a couple thousand rounds without cleaning my AR's with no problems if I wasn't so anal about cleaning them (and all the rest of my guns for that matter).

[AtreidesAR15]

Originally posted by WildWest N AZ
Here is my problem I like that gun you showed me except the stock, Im looking for one with the adjustable stock for easier carry. Bushmaster has a ton of those models so what one do I choose in that price range? Most likely I will spend the extra cash on the sights ect but can your FFl dealer order from Bushmaster the way you want it or is that something you have to do down the road, it would be easier for me just to have the way I want it from the factory.

I'm sure that you can order your Bushmaster any way you want: with whatever parts (O.E.M.) that you want. It'll be a custom order of course and you may end up having to wait a bit for it, even if it's just a matter of a different rear stock. You'd probably be better off getting the gun as is, and adding whatever stock you want on it later.(IMHO)

Deciding what model to get for a retro fix depends on how much you want to spend on the accessory: for instance, swapping out a rear stock assy. can start anywhere from $25.00 (for an old style CAR15 4 position stock) and up, average being around $100.00.

If you decide to get a model that already has a telescopic stock on it, a Gas Block to replace the front sight assy. will cost around $40.00 and up, add a flip-up sight and the cost will average around $125.00-$150.00.

If the model already has a gas block on it, a flip up BUIS is all you'll need costing around $50.00 and up averaging around $75.00.

Final Option: getting an upper and lower from Bushmaster.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/pre-ban/burvmb16.asp

and

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/lowers/alowtele.asp

Which will cost $914.00 RETAIL! (You will get these parts from your FFL for alot cheaper.)

Viola! Add say a Yankee Hill #YHM-9584 flip up sight ($60.00 or so)with a #YHM-9680 rear sight ($70.00) and you are still under your $1K budget...considering your FFL will get you a better price on the reciever assys....minus the Optics of course.

[WildWest N AZ]

So just alittle unclear on this I can buy that upper and lower and have a complete working gun except the sights I want? Then just buy the sights and be ready to shoot?
Once again thanks everyone for the help!

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by WildWest N AZ
So just alittle unclear on this I can buy that upper and lower and have a complete working gun except the sights I want? Then just buy the sights and be ready to shoot?
Once again thanks everyone for the help!

Yes, that is true.

One of the reasons AR's are so great is because they are so flexible in the many different configurations you can go with.

[tulsashooter]

Rock River Arms

[OutintheWoods]

Originally posted by WildWest N AZ
What kind of rifle is this SU-16C?
Always like to hear about a rifle that likes being unclean!:cool:

An Su-16 is Kel-Tec's new gas operated high powered 5.56mm (.223) semi automatic rifle. It weighs a little over 4 pounds.

It's operating system is basically a cross between an AR and an AK. Instead of a gas tube, it uses a piston and rod to actuate the bolt, extract and feed ammo. It also uses a bolt handle, instead of a charging handle with forward assist (which is a much better system in my view for quick loads, and failures to lock, etc....).

Think of it as an upside down Mini-14 or M1A, but with a super accurate AR-15 bolt, feed and extraction system, and magazine.

The advantage of such a system as far as cleanliness is concerned is that unlike the AR, dirty, carbonated gases are not injected into the bolt, or fire control areas.

This is a robust and reliable rifle, but very lightweight and based upon military designs. I consider it as reliable and as accurate as any AR I've ever owned or shot (and I've shot quite a few). It is also very well designed and of very good quality. However it is designed to be practical and lightweight defense weapon, not a show piece.

The stock is made of zytel, a glass reinforced nylon. It is very strong and resilient.

I have the C model, with the true folding stock, and theaded barrel for mounting suppressors or compensators, etc.... And like all SU's it's forearms fold down to create a bipod. I am very fond of it.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/keltec_su16_C.jpg