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twostepct
08-24-2005, 01:46
Hey guys, I need some help from the "fit of the world". I am 23 6'/200
+/- 3 and am a police officer working 1800-0400hrs 4 days a week. Background: Entered the academy weighing 240. Graduated weighing 220. I am not sure how, but I have lost an additional 20 or so pounds just being a police officer. I don't watch what I eat, but I usually only eat twice a day. Now that I am down to a decent weight for my size (it's not THAT bad is it??) I would like to take advantage of the opportunity, and start lifting and trying to stay in better shape. Another reason of insperation is that I have been involved in some stuff at work that kind of runs along-side SWAT stuff and have loved every minute of it, so now I have a new work interest. I am no runner by any stretch of the imagination and usually average a 9:45 mile and only run a mile or so.

My goals: Gain running stamina in order to be able to keep up with most of the SWAT guys, add muscle mass and gain definition and overall just keep my weight off.

My typical day: Wake up 1400hrs. Get ready for work and eat something fast around 1530-1600 (usually McDonalds or Taco Bueno). Go to work and in the process dip lots of snuff and drink on average of 3 liters of water in a 10 hour shift. Me and a buddy usually go eat around 2330 which usually involves either a breakfast buffet or a hamburger. Get off work at 0400 and go home to take a shower again and go to bed.

So there it is. I will be working out in the gym at my PD which has the basics and nothing more. Can anyone recommend a workout program for me, 'cause I know nothing about it. I would also like help on supplements etc, but I can't afford to spend huge amounts on them. I also have a bad shoulder that usually starts hurting as the weight increases. Sorry this turned out so long, but I think I have answered MOST of what will be asked. Thanks Guys!

Smoove9
08-24-2005, 12:18
Before taking supplements you should eat cleaner and more often. Eat about 6 meals throughout the day. Eating every 2-3 hours is what keeps your metabloism running. Continue drinking the water.

As for the workouts, you should stick with compound exercises.

Good luck

grey myst
08-25-2005, 18:52
As far as compound exercises are concerned, check out: www.crossfit.com

I also echo Smoove9's advice to eat cleaner and more often.

RENEA
08-27-2005, 09:08
Invest in a good Elliptical Trainer. I use mine 45 mins a day and it is a fantastic workout. Best of all you can do it while watching TV. Drink LOTS of water and avoid sodas, fried foods and sugar. Instead of Taco bell, why not Subway?

California Jack
08-27-2005, 20:24
I'm with grey mist. Try the Crossfit protocol. Another good starting point may be "Body for Life".

killerglock
08-27-2005, 21:41
working out after work wouldnt be right at 0400 try sleeping from 5 till 1300 that is 8 hours eat breaskfast like a few hard boiled eggs or poached and some cereal like total something good. head to the gym do 2 groups a day like chest and triceps , biceps and back, abs and legs etc but always do at least 20-30 min of cardio a day like 15 min on a bike and 15 on the eliptical set it on cross training mode. as for suppliments take a multi vitamin dont miss it take it after a meal dont miss it. maybe a good amino acid in pill or liquid form once after workouts and a protein powder taken before breakfast after workouts and before bed . dont forget to take time to go to the store buy fruit like oranges necterines banannas etc eat those when you feel hungary instead of the fast food bring a cooler with turkey sandwiches ham etc on wheat turkey jerkey hi protein low carb and fat snacks. no alcohol. sorry so long but this is a evreyday lifestyle evrey aspect of life needs to be looked at there is more you can do but read mens health or muscle mags.

Billy2
08-28-2005, 00:14
check this out it even follows a four and two work week.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/josh2.htm

pitbullk9
08-29-2005, 10:35
Your diet sounds lousy. Take the time and effort to eat better, I know it's a hassle. This day and age most everyone knows what they should be eating it's a matter of doing it. Take an hour or two and prepare your food for the work week on a day off.

You can't accomplish all your fitness goals at one time. Trying to get bigger/stronger and trying to get defined is not an effective goal. Washboard abs have little to do with physical performance or health.

Base your weight workouts on squats, deadlifts, and bench. Fill in the rest with whatever. Bodybuilding is fine, but you have to include the big three. I would hold off the cardio until you have a reasonable strength base, assuming your life is somewhat active.

Try this site for advice.

http://www.deepsquatter.com/

Stay away from muscle mags, they are full of adds and BS.

California Jack
08-29-2005, 11:33
Stay away from muscle mags, they are full of adds and BS

+1 on that one, amen!

Concentrating on Pitbulk's Big 3 is a good idea too. My Big 3 are a little different, I use squats, cleans and Overhead press, but it's the same thing really.

Good post Pitbulk.

Jack

saspic
09-03-2005, 01:53
How about a workout that can help your L.E. career also?
http://kravmaga.com/krav01.html
Krav is a great workout. Occasionally we spend a class on something less physically demanding, like learning knife defenses, but you leave every class feeling like you accomplished something.
I'm not sure where in Texas you are, but in San Antonio they've added law enforcement only classes Wednesday mornings and Saturday afternoons (the schedule is not up to date).
http://911kravmaga.com/index.html

pitbullk9
09-08-2005, 13:22
I would argue that gaining 20lbs of muscle with a workout based on squats, deadlifts and bench press would help in law enforcement work.

lethal tupperwa
09-08-2005, 13:42
A friend going through the Academy was told that if a BG can go 10 min make sure you can go 11.

Heavy weights do not improve stamina (as much as a lot of reps with lighter weights)large bulky muscles have fewer reps available to them.


Way back when, I would work up to 100 repetitions before I increased the weight.

I met a lot of people that were bulky that could not do 100 reps with an empty bar.

pitbullk9
09-08-2005, 18:23
Do you think that World's strongest man competitors don't have stamina?

Would you take a marathon runner or a powerlifter to a fight for back up?

Fighting 11 minutes to outlast the BG's 10 is fine, but I think a better plan is to be physically able to end the fight. I'm not saying strength is the only factor, but it helps.

20lbs of extra muscle does not make you "bulky".

lethal tupperwa
09-12-2005, 14:25
Do you think that World's strongest man competitors don't have stamina?

Did you ever see them try 2 or 3 times then not be able to lift their arms or stand?

That is massive strength with out endurance. If it goes over a minute they are done.


My sons Judo instructor, said if you want to get in shape for competition get a job on a farm---work from light until dark.

California Jack
09-12-2005, 20:13
That is massive strength with out endurance.

I'm not going to get in the pissing match of big guys that can't rep out on an empty bar stuff, but this quote is just wrong. WSM competion is more about strength endurance than maximal strength. Very few events in strongman shows are about maximal strength, maybe deadlifts. The other stuff, farmers walks, tire flipping, log pressing, truck pulling, stone lifting etc., etc., are strength ENDURANCE events. You are wrong in your statement above.

Powerlifting is strength without endurance. Weightlifting is strength without endurance. Marathoning is endurance without strength. WSM is about strength endurance.

garythenuke
09-13-2005, 06:12
Great Post Jack. Plus one's all the way around. If one has not tried the WSM type events, one has no idea what all is involved.^6 ^c
Powerlifting, weightlifting and WSM are different beasts.

California Jack
09-13-2005, 11:56
Would you take a marathon runner or a powerlifter to a fight for back up?

This depends. Is the powerlifter wearing his bench shirt, squat suit and various wraps and other support gear? If he is, I may want to have the runner back me up!;c ;)

Jack

pitbullk9
09-13-2005, 13:12
Lets say the powerlifter is wearing just a singlet and a belt, but just got a snort of Crain's nose torc and a liberal application of chalk.

Real Police
09-25-2005, 08:24
My philosophy is that strength is just as important as endurance and cardio is just as important as the iron. I lift to 12 reps and then increase weight to the point where I reach failure at about 8 reps. Eventually I build back up to 12........

Every day Im on the treadmill or elipitcal for 30 to 60 mins,"30 on lift days". I love doing squats because they are the closest thing I can find to running up 5 floors, with 30 lbs of gear on, knowing at the end of the run the best you can hope for is a horrendous fist battle.

I mix resistance types between a machine and dumbells in a 4 day split. My answer to the lousy food we eat on the street is to bring a lunch in the squad car. Every day I make a large green leafy salad with eggs, cheese, meat, and raw veggies in it and eat off of that. I also bring extra hard boiled eggs for snacks. The only carbs I eat besides that is fruit in the AM. Limiting carbs is the answer to maintaining weight..........RP

killerglock
09-25-2005, 10:01
Originally posted by pitbullk9
Your diet sounds lousy. Take the time and effort to eat better, I know it's a hassle. This day and age most everyone knows what they should be eating it's a matter of doing it. Take an hour or two and prepare your food for the work week on a day off.

You can't accomplish all your fitness goals at one time. Trying to get bigger/stronger and trying to get defined is not an effective goal. Washboard abs have little to do with physical performance or health.

Base your weight workouts on squats, deadlifts, and bench. Fill in the rest with whatever. Bodybuilding is fine, but you have to include the big three. I would hold off the cardio until you have a reasonable strength base, assuming your life is somewhat active.

Try this site for advice.

http://www.deepsquatter.com/

Stay away from muscle mags, they are full of adds and BS. I agree but sitting in a car all night eating fast food and sleeping till an hour before work I would say do much cardio. start 15 min before a workout 1 week than up it to 20 min, than 30 min a week later. or you will have a nice gut and no energy.

ateamer
09-26-2005, 22:58
Crossfit looks like a good program. It's headquarters is right here in town and some of our deputies are on it. One of them is a Crossfit legend, just an animal in superhuman condition. Training at Crossfit, he is able to bench about 335 and do 39 pullups at a bodyweight of about 200. He joined the Army Reserve and smoked all the PT instructors at everything.

Good, short, intense workouts and something different every time so you'll never get bored. It also requires just some basic equipment, and not any of that silly chrome-and-lever-and-cable stuff at fernbar gyms.

If I ever get tired of barbells and dumbbells, I will probably switch to Crossfit.

lethal tupperwa
09-27-2005, 09:32
I was listening to it on the radio.

The cop was one of the older guys. He had been fleet boxing champ.

He had the nasty habit of running cross country teams in to the ground.

He took off after a BG and it sounded like this Going north on ----
going east on----going south on---and so on.

He was not out of breath when he caught the younger perp.

When the 20 something BG got out of the wagon after about a 5 mile ride he was still completely OUT of breath and managed to gasp "he ain't human"

California Jack
09-28-2005, 20:45
and not any of that silly chrome-and-lever-and-cable stuff at fernbar gyms.

Good post there Brooks...errr....ateamer!;c ;c :cool: :)

killerglock
09-30-2005, 19:51
I had just gotten out of the corps completed 6months of academy training during my training I would do 6 miles of running evrey morning than they had us doing push ups weight room etc well this was nothing compared to paris island so at night I wouuld do a 2 mile run after dinner I at massive amounts of protein suppliments steak dinners w/ potato and salad;) anyways after I went on the road I started lifting heavy on top of my running 2 months into working I had to chase down 318 - 21 year olds I was pumped I took off floored one got to the caught up to the next slamed him and same to the 3rd took him back in cuffs to the other 2 my fto caught up and cuffed the 1st I brought the 2 down to him they couldnt breath it was some story in the locker room.lol

25074
10-02-2005, 06:37
The thing with a police officer is not necessarily how much you can lift or how long or fast you can run.

A lot of it is the intimidation factor.

Picture this, the bad guy sees an over weight slob of an officer coming towards him to make an arrest. What do you think the bad guy is thinking??

Now...

You have another officer in decent shape that holds himself in a way that basically scares the bad guy into compliance.

I have seen both of these situations. If a fight can be avoided then everyone wins. But I for one would prefer to have the stronger guy as back up!!!

I worked with a guy who was HUGE!!!

He was some sort of power lifter pro or something. He was super scary big!

I told people that if he opened a can of woop ***** on someone, I would have to shoot him; because there was no way that I could stop him!!

That comment alone freaked people out enough to comply sometimes!!

There is a lot of good info on this post thanks!

ateamer
10-03-2005, 17:19
Originally posted by California Jack
Good post there Brooks...errr....ateamer!;c ;c :cool: :)
My main training partner said he's going to publish a book on weight training. It will have three pages:
Page One: Lift a heavy weight.
Page Two: Put it down.
Page Three: Do it again.

Really, this stuff doesn't have to be as complicated as so many want to make it. Hell, Oly lifters use nothing but a barbell, squat rack and maybe a hyper bench and do just fine. I have pretty much moved away from Westside and gone more old school.

Heavy bench Mondays - usually a few heavy singles, less weight if I don't feel as strong. Follow with maybe inclines and military presses and situps. There is no schedule or progression to it. Just train intelligently, try to add a bit of weight every couple weeks, back off when it is getting to be too much and the progress will come. Guys trained like this for decades and did just fine.

Same scheme Tuesdays for squats, followed by shrugs or rack pulls and pullups.

Thursdays and Fridays are lighter, higher-rep versions of the same, unless I feel like doing some strongman stuff or whatever. I might try and learn the Olympic lifts.

Keep it simple, eschew chrome and hate any male who wears Spandex.;c

California Jack
10-03-2005, 20:26
ateamer<

WOW! Was the change of course (away from Westside) a result of your injury? What's happened? Are you still going to compete?

I shouldn't pretend to be in the position to give advice to you, so please take this with a grain of salt, but if you are not Westsiding anymore, perhaps you might want to pull from the floor every 10 to 14 days. After all, the deadlift is old school too.

One more thing, I don't know about your age, flexibility, or coaching availability, but if you want to try the OLs, you may want to split snatch and clean. A good starting point for this is this article. (http://p080.ezboard.com/foldschoolstrengthtraining70757frm3.showMessage?topicID=105.topic)

ateamer
10-03-2005, 20:54
I appreciate the advice, Jack. I forgot to put in that I will deadlift every other Friday. The days I don't pull, will be Olympic squats.

If I try the Oly lifts, I'll follow the article's advice. (Edited after reading it.) It makes a lot of sense, and I am exactly the target audience. The weight will be pretty darned light at first. It will also depend on how well my 38-year-old shoulders tolerate it. Shouldn't be a problem because I've been doing a lot of swings (ballistic laterals and plate raises) as part of every workout to warm up.

I had Drechsler's book, but loaned it to a weightlifter buddy a couple years ago. Maybe he would be willing to let me borrow it.

I kind of gradually got away from Westside. I am just currently in the frame of mind of just wanting to keep it simple. A couple issues of Milo and Bruce Wilhelm's book (horrible grammar aside) about Pat Casey (RIP) were motivators as well. The wide stance sitback squats are definitely in my past after the injury. It is back to balanced technique. I think old school also appeals to the contrarian in me, since it seems the rest of the world wants the latest and greatest Northeastern Bosno-Romanian Autumn Morning workout system instead of just getting down and dirty.

Here's to dusty corners, rusty plates, knurling that makes your hands hurt and a cloud of chalk dust.;c

California Jack
10-03-2005, 21:07
Split snatching is definetly easier on the shoulders than squat snatching. The bar doesn't have to be as far behind the head to be in the slot that way. I've tried both, and to squat snatch I had to drill overhead squats. They killed my 45 year old, football injured shoulders.

Never read the book about Casey, perhaps I'll order it from Ironmind.

Are you still going to compete?

Here's to dusty corners, rusty plates, knurling that makes your hands hurt and a cloud of chalk dust.

Amen and I'll drink to that too!;c

Good luck,
Jack

twostepct
10-10-2005, 16:58
Hey guys, I feel like an *****... I had forgotten about this thread and was flipping through and thought "Hey, that's from me?". Thanks for all the replies. I am doing cardio still but I haven't started lifting yet. The work buddy I spoke of is about to start training hard again so I guess that will be motivation for me to eat better because he will be. Thanks again guys!

B_Easy
10-21-2005, 14:49
Originally posted by twostepct
Hey guys, I feel like an *****... I had forgotten about this thread and was flipping through and thought "Hey, that's from me?". Thanks for all the replies. I am doing cardio still but I haven't started lifting yet. The work buddy I spoke of is about to start training hard again so I guess that will be motivation for me to eat better because he will be. Thanks again guys!

A lot of those olympic lifts are great for building strength and power, but they'll tear up your joints quickly.

If you want a lot of size and decent strength (as opposed to little size and great strength), go with volume training.

Strength is great, but you want a little weight behind it, you know?

California Jack
10-21-2005, 18:46
A lot of those olympic lifts are great for building strength and power, but they'll tear up your joints quickly.

Please be more specific. From what I understand about the OLs, they are safer thatn the PLs. For sure the classic lifts are easier on the shoulders that bench pressing.

Jack

B_Easy
10-22-2005, 13:48
Originally posted by California Jack
Please be more specific. From what I understand about the OLs, they are safer thatn the PLs. For sure the classic lifts are easier on the shoulders that bench pressing.

Jack

Olympic AND power lifting are both stressful on your joints.

Benchpress isn't too bad, but all powerlifting should be part of a larger volume training routine.

For example...chest...

Benchpress w/ barbell OR dumbels
Incline benchpress w/ barbell OR dumbels
Cable flyes

4 sets of 10, training to failure.

As long as you keep reps above 6, you'll be fine. Stay away from "maxing out".

B_Easy
10-22-2005, 13:49
[QUOTE]Originally posted by B_Easy
[B]Olympic AND power lifting are both stressful on your joints.

Benchpress isn't too bad, but all powerlifting should be part of a larger volume training routine.

For example...chest...

Benchpress w/ barbell OR dumbels
Incline benchpress w/ barbell OR dumbels
Cable flyes

4 sets of 10, training to failure.

As long as you keep reps above 6, you'll be fine. Stay away from "maxing out".

EDIT: if you don't use 100% proper form on olympic lifts, you WILL destroy your back.

DBradD
10-22-2005, 15:32
I don't see any reason for a "cop-specific" workout. Forget supplements - think of them as polishing, not correcting a terrible diet, which you have.

You need to start counting calories, grams of protein, grams of carbs, etc, and cut out the junk fast food. It is unbelievably bad for you. My wife, especially, is a fast food junkie. She recently started what is so far a very successful diet plan, mainly involving counting calories and pre-planning meals. In two weeks, she lost 11 lbs. Granted, her weight loss will taper off soon because that's an unsustainable rate of loss. In that same time period, because we're not eating out, I went from 200 to 191, which will obviously taper off soon. I've changed nothing except for quitting fast food. Ever watch the movie "Supersize Me"? If not, you should. Fast food is borderline criminal if you ask me. Check out the nutritional info on the internet. Practically everything at Taco Hell is terrible for you and the same can be said for about every other popular restaurant. I was in Fazolis not long ago and literally could only find a couple of things on the menu that were not suicidal to eat.

A bad diet can deep-six a good exercise program. I recommend that you get it under control first and then reassess. As far as workouts go, there's no need for complexity. A good weightlifting workout 4 times/week plus running 3-4 miles/day, 3-4 times/week will keep you in better shape than 95% of people.

DBD

DBradD
10-22-2005, 15:42
Originally posted by B_Easy
A lot of those olympic lifts are great for building strength and power, but they'll tear up your joints quickly.
...

I agree with this. I used to do these ad nauseam in high school and when I competed in powerlifting. Cleans, especially, are brutally effective, but the risk of damaging something is just too great for most of us. Especially in the OP's line of work. If he injures something, that's a major problem. There's also no need for powerlifting. Unless one wants to compete, then there's no reason for complexity and risk. Just lift heavy sets of 8 or 10 over the long haul, maybe mixing it up some from time to time with sets of 5-6 or sets of 12-15. That'll get the job done and the risk of injury is low.

After we cease to be teenagers, we have to think just as much about the risks as the benefits of activities such as weightlifting. It makes no sense to get brutally explosive and strong and then have a hernia or blown-out knee. I think even I could beat up a really good fighter if he has a bum knee. There's also the issue of having to take time off training to nurse little injuries. This is extremely inefficient compared to just keeping it simple and busting those sets of 8 and 10 on basic exercises like bench press, squat, overhead press, curls, etc. for the next few years.

DBD

B_Easy
10-22-2005, 18:06
Originally posted by DBradD
I agree with this. I used to do these ad nauseam in high school and when I competed in powerlifting. Cleans, especially, are brutally effective, but the risk of damaging something is just too great for most of us. Especially in the OP's line of work. If he injures something, that's a major problem. There's also no need for powerlifting. Unless one wants to compete, then there's no reason for complexity and risk. Just lift heavy sets of 8 or 10 over the long haul, maybe mixing it up some from time to time with sets of 5-6 or sets of 12-15. That'll get the job done and the risk of injury is low.

After we cease to be teenagers, we have to think just as much about the risks as the benefits of activities such as weightlifting. It makes no sense to get brutally explosive and strong and then have a hernia or blown-out knee. I think even I could beat up a really good fighter if he has a bum knee. There's also the issue of having to take time off training to nurse little injuries. This is extremely inefficient compared to just keeping it simple and busting those sets of 8 and 10 on basic exercises like <a *******'text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=31&k=bench%20press" ***********="window.status='bench press'; return true;" **********="window.status=''; return true;">bench press</a>, squat, overhead press, curls, etc. for the next few years.

DBD

As much as the bodybuilding workout gives you a crappy strength/weight ratio (you gain a lot of muscle weight for the amount of strength you're getting), it's a lot safer than powerlifting workouts, and can actually give you great development.

I routinely spar with a guy who's MUCH quicker than I am, and much more dextrous and skilled in wrestling, and I still come out on top a lot of the time in grappling scenarios just due to weight and strength.

Remember, in powerlifting there's weight classes. On the street there isn't.

Body mass helps with blunt trauma, leverage, and sometimes balance.

BTW, I'm 215, 240 on-cycle, and my sparring partner is probably 170-180, but a bit taller (6'0 compared to 5'10) just to give you an idea of what weight differences I'm talking about.

The downside to volume training is it drains you, and I'm pretty much always fighting "injured". Not "injured" in a classical debilitating sense, but injured in a "oww, my anterior bicep tendon hurts from benching..." sense. Makes throwing hooks a bit tough unless I come in straight...no wide roundhouse hooking for me.

B_Easy
10-22-2005, 18:07
Originally posted by B_Easy
As much as the bodybuilding workout gives you a crappy strength/weight ratio (you gain a lot of muscle weight for the amount of strength you're getting), it's a lot safer than powerlifting workouts, and can actually give you great development.

I routinely spar with a guy who's MUCH quicker than I am, and much more dextrous and skilled in wrestling, and I still come out on top a lot of the time in grappling scenarios just due to weight and strength.

Remember, in powerlifting there's weight classes. On the street there isn't.

Body mass helps with blunt trauma, leverage, and sometimes balance.

BTW, I'm 215, 240 on-cycle, and my sparring partner is probably 170-180, but a bit taller (6'0 compared to 5'10) just to give you an idea of what weight differences I'm talking about.

The downside to volume training is it drains you, and I'm pretty much always fighting "injured". Not "injured" in a classical debilitating sense, but injured in a "oww, my anterior bicep tendon hurts from benching..." sense. Makes throwing hooks a bit tough unless I come in straight...no wide roundhouse hooking for me.

EDIT: if you want a volume training workout regimen, I'd be more than happy to share mine with you. It works...I was a 148 lb weakling before I started training 3 yrs ago. ;f

California Jack
10-23-2005, 16:08
As long as you keep reps above 6, you'll be fine. Stay away from "maxing out".

and

Cleans, especially, are brutally effective, but the risk of damaging something is just too great for most of us.

About the latter, what joints are you hurting by doing cleans? About the only way they are dangerous is if you don't know how to dump a lift. If you are getting hurt while cleaning, you either have a muscle imbalance or you are in need of coaching.

About the former; some authors say it is high rep isolation work and negatives that screws up joints. Could you point me to some good literature that discusses your position, it may be enlightening. If interested, I'll try to dig stuff up saying the opposite.

About Oly lifts in general, I broke the ball of my humerus playing HS football. Since trying to learn the OLs, my shoulders have never felt better.

Usually when you hear people saying that OLs are dangerous, it comes from people brainwashed by Super Slow training.

I don't really think there is much trruth to it.

Jack

pitbullk9
10-23-2005, 19:03
BTW, I'm 215, 240 on-cycle

Please elaborate on this.

B_Easy
10-24-2005, 10:25
Originally posted by pitbullk9
BTW, I'm 215, 240 on-cycle

Please elaborate on this.

Depending on what supplements I'm taking, my bodyweight is anywhere between 215 and 240 pounds.

DBradD
10-25-2005, 09:22
Originally posted by California Jack
...
About the latter, what joints are you hurting by doing cleans? About the only way they are dangerous is if you don't know how to dump a lift. If you are getting hurt while cleaning, you either have a muscle imbalance or you are in need of coaching....

I admit it - personal bias. It's not completely unfounded in general, though. I did a lot of similar activities between 15 years old and 25 years old and am now carrying around injuries that will probably be there for life. Anything heavy and/or ballistic immediately throws up my red flag.

Dumping the weight, as you mention, is a concern. I've never lifted at a facility that would allow one to just drop the weight. I haven't done cleans since I was 20 and I remember the last time, I was doing 275 (not bad for a 175 pounder, IMO!) for reps and I think I just about ripped my biceps out of my elbow joint. That's the closest I ever came to getting hurt doing cleans. Most of us don't have a coach, or any source of coaching, BTW.

Also, nobody's going to tell me that dipping into much more than a full squat at the bottom of a clean and then literally bouncing to get the front squat started, won't damage most folks' knees. We've all seen this done in competition. Some of these guys will bounce a couple or three times to get it started. Those guys will be walking with canes in a few years.

DBD

California Jack
10-25-2005, 18:14
DBD,

You are right, a 275 clean for a 175 LBer is darn good.

As far as your bicep near-injury, that may have been a technique issue. There is minimal bicep involvement in a clean. Where you bending your arms too early?

Don't know if I agree with you regarding knees and Oly lifting. Tommy Kono gets around well, and he is ancient now. I saw big Shane Hammond ( former world class PLer with a 1000 lb squat and Olympic level weightlifter in a restraunt. He walked fine.) BTW, in know there is a school of thought that rock bottom squats are easier on the knees than parallel squats.

Jack

DBradD
10-25-2005, 22:28
Originally posted by California Jack
...
As far as your bicep near-injury, that may have been a technique issue. There is minimal bicep involvement in a clean. Where you bending your arms too early?

Don't know if I agree with you regarding knees and Oly lifting. Tommy Kono gets around well, and he is ancient now. I saw big Shane Hammond ( former world class PLer with a 1000 lb squat and Olympic level weightlifter in a restraunt. He walked fine.) BTW, in know there is a school of thought that rock bottom squats are easier on the knees than parallel squats....

Thanks dude. That was a long time ago! When I was younger than that, I won the regional football players clean contest with 250 lbs at 160 lbs. That was better than any weight class in the region. That's pathetic by olympic-style standards, but not bad for a self-taught hillbilly! Like I said, looong ago.

Later on, my biceps were really sore from dumping the weight. I've yet to find a gym that would let me just drop the weight, so the next best idea was to drop it to arms-length, landing it on my quads which absorbed most of the weight. My biceps were really stretched by this and I didn't realize it until after I finished. I could barely bend my elbows and was very tempted to go the hospital. Having two spotters lower the weight is the only other option I can think of, but I didn't think of that at the time.

About the other issues, it seems that you've done your research more than I have, but I'll still throw these back for consideration:

About Kano and Hammond: Folks are different. They might have really tough knees. We never get to hear about the ones that didn't make it that far. Those guys got to be famous for a reason!

I've never read anything favoring rock-bottom squats, but obviously can't deny the existence of supporting research. It sure doesn't make any intuitive sense to me considering how the tension-side connective tissue is stretched way around the corner in that position.

Getting back to the thread's point, I think the OP is looking for more of a "regular guy" workout than a competitive weightlifting or powerlifting workout. Whenever I think about this kind of workout for a professional adult, I give the possible risks at least as much consideration as any possible benefits. My judgment, for what it's worth, indicates more of a bodybuilding routine along with some running or other cardio. If a serious injury occurs, then it's catastrophic for his career. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think these types of workouts are safer for most people.

Have a good evening!
DBD

garythenuke
10-26-2005, 15:29
DBradD,
You have alot more expereince with competitive lifting than I do. I have never lifted in any sort of meet, it has all been in my back yard. In high school and college, I did the "normal" high school/college guy lifting routines of bench, parallel squat, incline bench, calf raise, decline bench, four types of curls, three types of tricep extension, crunch after crunch after crunch, and still more isolation exercises than I can remember. Essentially a bodybuilding type workout. I still got injured in my real life activities after college. I as a milkman by the way.


Then a few years ago I stumbled across a website called ironmind. I started digging into it and discovered olympic lifting, strongman lifting, and old school dumbell lifting. I am by no means an impressive physical figure, but I think that my strength to bodyweight ratio is better than the average guy.

If I could lift as much as Reza Zadeh at a bodyweight of 185, I would be one happy dude. But I would not ever want to be that big for any reason. My goal is to be as strong as possible while being as light as possible. That is what attracted me to olympic lifting in the first place.


The olympic lifting, in my opinion, are more a real world type lift. The strong man stuff is even more real world. As a cop, the author of this thread may be lifting barrels, cars, sandbags, and any other sort of unbalanced peice of heavy stuff. It is not likely that whatever he has to move will have a 1.08" to 1.3875" diameter knurled bar attached to it.

I am not slamming bodybuilding at all. If it is done naturally, the physiques acheivable by the human body are amazing and worth alot of respect. But for a "functional" type of strength, other optional are better in my opinion.

There are alot of bodywieght systems out there that do a great job with functional strength as well. And that is free! As for cardio, in addition to running, try jumping rope. Doing every thing barefoot ads another aspect of fullbody bulletproofing that many folks miss out on.

gary

DBradD
10-26-2005, 17:59
Originally posted by garythenuke
DBradD,
You have alot more expereince with competitive lifting than I do. I have never lifted in any sort of meet, it has all been in my back yard. In high school and college, I did the "normal" high school/college guy lifting routines of bench, parallel squat, incline bench, calf raise, decline bench, four types of curls, three types of tricep extension, crunch after crunch after crunch, and still more isolation exercises than I can remember. Essentially a bodybuilding type workout. I still got injured in my real life activities after college. I as a milkman by the way.


Then a few years ago I stumbled across a website called ironmind. I started digging into it and discovered olympic lifting, strongman lifting, and old school dumbell lifting. I am by no means an impressive physical figure, but I think that my strength to bodyweight ratio is better than the average guy.

If I could lift as much as Reza Zadeh at a bodyweight of 185, I would be one happy dude. But I would not ever want to be that big for any reason. My goal is to be as strong as possible while being as light as possible. That is what attracted me to olympic lifting in the first place.


The olympic lifting, in my opinion, are more a real world type lift. The strong man stuff is even more real world. As a cop, the author of this thread may be lifting barrels, cars, sandbags, and any other sort of unbalanced peice of heavy stuff. It is not likely that whatever he has to move will have a 1.08" to 1.3875" diameter knurled bar attached to it.

I am not slamming bodybuilding at all. If it is done naturally, the physiques acheivable by the human body are amazing and worth alot of respect. But for a "functional" type of strength, other optional are better in my opinion.

There are alot of bodywieght systems out there that do a great job with functional strength as well. And that is free! As for cardio, in addition to running, try jumping rope. Doing every thing barefoot ads another aspect of fullbody bulletproofing that many folks miss out on.

gary

Interesting. Thanks for the insight. Good luck with your workouts.

DBD

saspic
11-19-2005, 03:21
Hey. I'm the guy who suggested the Krav Maga classes. I've just discovered the Bas Ruten Mixed Martial Art Workout:

http://www.basrutten.tv/index.php?option=com_phpshop&page=shop.browse&category_id=4&Itemid=1

http://www.basrutten.tv

The kicking punching sprawling is great cardio, but your stamina will definitely go way up. Remember, guys he originally asked about keeping up with the SWAT guys, not just building muscle. Oh, you'll do some of that, too. I use a bag, but on the DVD you can see Bas usually shadow boxes through the rounds. At $60 it's expensive, but totally worth it.