Tungston rod BROKE!

[WildWest N AZ]

Didnt really brake but came un screwed from the end that seats into the barrel, called glockmeister they wanted to see it asap. Seemed this was a very uncommon issue and they will replace it for free witch
is great. Has anyone every heard of this happening before? I thought these rods are really good ect? Im hoping this is just a rare problem its such a pain to send things back.

[coverdog]

Originally posted by WildWest N AZ
Didnt really brake but came un screwed from the end that seats into the barrel, called glockmeister they wanted to see it asap. Seemed this was a very uncommon issue and they will replace it for free witch
is great. Has anyone every heard of this happening before? I thought these rods are really good ect? Im hoping this is just a rare problem its such a pain to send things back.

Never heard of or had that problem. But then I have been using the stock rods without fail for years.;f

[VN350X10]

Tungsten rods, while being much heavier & helping to absorb recoil (psycologicly)(sp), tend to break things! I've seen 1911 frames cracked beyond repair from the battering of a heavy rod. Glocks come with a polymer setup for a good reason. The battering of a tungsten rod WILL cause breakage.
Just for the record, going the other direction, titanium parts are brittle & will fracture, while causing accelerated wear to steel parts. Ti, in it's natural state is abrasive, & needs to be coated with a titanium nitride coating. This is the gold color seen on most (not all) Ti parts.

If you're worried about the stock guide rod flexing, Areotech makes a tungsten insert rod for the stock setup. It's about $13.00 retail, or if your like myself, a pc of stainless steel welding rod of the right size can be had for about next to nothing & does the same job, while retaining the self lubricating properties of the plastic & retaing about $13.00 in your wallet !

shoot safe..

uncle albert

[J.P.]

Tungsten is very hard and brittle.

[WildWest N AZ]

I was wondering if anyone had seen or heard of this problem before, guess not. Custom Glock Racing told me that thier was no ill affect to using the Tungston at all it seems that the Glock shops know best were have you seen or had the wear show on the gun?

[Glock-N-Fun]

VN,

Please explain how a tugsten rod can batter,crack and break things on a 1911.If the shape of a tungsten rod is the same as a SS,or carbon rod,and the weight(which is kinda minimal)is the only differance how can the frame etc..get damaged in a 1911.

[VN350X10]

Very simple. The higher weight of the tungsten rod causes it to have more inertia than a steel rod. This higher weight, combined with the fact that recoil energy isn't actually lessened by the extra weight, rather just feels like it in the hand, imparts more force to the frame by reason of the slide & recoil velocity being the same as a lighter rod. Think of this example: Suppose you threw a ping-pong ball at a pane of glass at 75 fps. The ball will bounce off with no problems. Now, replace that ping-pong ball with a golf ball, traveling at the same 75 fps. CRASH !
While the effect on a frame isn't that instantanious, over the life of a pistol, the accumulative effect causes metal fatigue & the frame cracks. I have TIG welded probably 30 or 40 frames over the years I've done gunsmithing & all but one customer had been using tungsten guide rods. The lone exception was a bullseye gun that had probably in excess of 150,000 rds thru it. The owner has competed in bullseye since about 1958, using the same pistol. Hell, I was only 7 when this gun got started!

Due to the flex designed into a Glock frame, Custom Glock Racing may well be correct, as this would tend to minimize fracturing. I trust Matt's opinion, as I consider him to be one of the very top "Glocksmiths" in the country. If I didn't do my own triggers, action jobs, etc. I would be shooting a gun built by Matt.
That's what I think of his expertiese on Glocks!

uncle albert

[WildWest N AZ]

Thxs, for a better wording on the issue I agree with you on Matt's advice until a Glock builder tells me other wise I will use the Tungston.

[noway]

Kinda confused here ;5

{but came un screwed from the end that seats into the barrel}

I have 2 tungten recoil-rods. What are you takin about "unscrew"? Is this for a glock ?

My tungsten rod from what I can tell is 1 piece

[Glock-N-Fun]

VN,

I've known many shooters(including myself) that have used tungsten rods in 1911's for years,not excluding the wilson 5oz.,and i have never seen a cracked frame as a result of the rod.Fact of the matter is,the only 1911 frame i've seen crack(i have heard of others)was a combat commander that i owned that cracked at the rear of the dust cover just in front of the rails,and i wasn't useing a tungsten rod,and i wasn't useing shock buff's at the time either,started useing them shortly after and never had a problem since then.Did the owners of these 20-30 frames you claim to have welded use a shock buff to cusion the slam of the dust cover on the back of the rod?
No flame intended,but don't quite understand how the ping-pong ball/golf ball test ties in with the tungsten rod.

[WIG19]

Originally posted by VN350X10
Very simple. The higher weight of the tungsten rod causes it to have more inertia than a steel rod.
Understanding the effects you describe with your ping-pong theory (from a physics point of view), please explain to me what travelling the tungsten guide rod itself is doing while this is all taking place?

^8

[WildWest N AZ]

I also thought it to be one piece? But that part that seats into the barrel screws into the rod. It was for my 23 and from what I hear its seems like I just got unluckly with the one I bought. GLockmeister recieved my tungston today said it was very rare problem I asked if it mattered if it was captive or non he said it would make no diff of the two and not to worry about it should never have that problem again.

[VN350X10]

Glock-N-Fun,
To be fair, most of the frames that I've welded were before the use of shock buffers became common. Possibly they came about to eliminate the battering, eh?

When the pistol fires, the slide, frame, guide rod assy all move reward at different rates, due to the inertia of each seperate part. The frame actually moves away from the guide rod assy. during recoil & then due to the action of the reoil spring, the rod assy is slammed back into the area where it seats in the frame. This is where the battering comes from. The afore-mentioned Wilson 5oz rod assy was taken off the market just because of the potential for damage to a customers gun !


uncle albert

[Glock-N-Fun]

VN,

The dust cover cracks was simply from the slide apron slamming into the rear of the guide rod which is resting right on the frame just in front of the rails,this is the exact point were the dust cover would crack,the shock buff's will stop DC cracks.

I was told by a wilson rep.that the 5oz rods were taken off the market because they were not cost effective,they got to costly to market,and sales plunged,they were about $80 retail when they last sold,but were going to have to increase the price if they continued production.

BTY,i use an Ed Brown on my 5oz rods,they are flexible enough to go on the larger rod,and work fine.

If you repaired cracked frames prior to the introduction of shock buffs that explains it.Most shooters these days don't shoot a 1911 enough to crack a frame.

[Solit Hit]

Suppose you threw a ping-pong ball at a pane of glass at 75 fps. The ball will bounce off with no problems. Now, replace that ping-pong ball with a golf ball, traveling at the same 75 fps. CRASH

Not to get off track but that does not make sense to me. It's like the question "What would you rather have fall on you - a ton of feathers or a ton of bricks?" - 2,000 lb is 2,000 lb regardless of the material that makes it up. 75fps is 75fps - regardless of the material that hits that glass. Why would the material that makes up the guide rod have any bearing on the frame unless there is some "give" in that material - is that what the analogy is about?

[VN350X10]

Solit Hit,
please re-think your question. The velocity used as an example is the same....the mass of the projectile used is not.
In the vernacular of USPSA/IPSC, the golf ball will have a much higher "power factor" than the ping-pong ball, even thou they are about the same size & going the same velocity.

I realize that most shooters don't have a firm grasp of phsyics, at least from an engineering standpoint, & don't realize how much a semi-auto firearm moves internally BEFORE the slide/bolt start visibly moving. Trust me on this one, the frame, slide & guide rod assy all are moving at the instant of firing, in somewhat different directions & at vastly different rates of speed.
At this time, I don't even want to get into vibrational harmonics with relation to movement. No sense in adding the barrel & the springs into an already obviously confusing equation.



uncle albert

[WildWest N AZ]

My BA in history does nothing for me on these topic! LoL ;U

[VN350X10]

That's O.K., my minor was classical music. Bach ain't got a clue about ballistics either !HARDEHARHAR!

Fortunately, I managed to learn a lot more^2

from Bucminster Fuller & Einstien

[Glock-N-Fun]

VN,

If your stateing that the rod moves forward away from the frame upon recoil,then slams the frame as it goes back from spring pressure,not saying it isn't true,but it's new information to me.If it does,i can't see it moving more than a micro amount because of the spring tention/pressure pushing it back upon recoil.As i mention before many many smith's i've delt with(and befriended) for years claim the cracked frames(on the dust cover) were a result of the slide apren slamming the rear of the rod/guide upon recoil.
If you mention glof balls one more time i may have to hit the course..hehe!

[VN350X10]

Correct, the movement isn't a lot, the damage comes from the frequency of the movement. The imparted vibration from the recoil spring just adds to the annoyance !


(there....no golf balls....)



uncle albert

[WildWest N AZ]

But does it matter if it is the stock one or an after market version?
Or do they both have the same wear and tear over time?

[VN350X10]

Even a bone stock gun will break on occasion, but the OEM recoil spring guide doesn't weigh much compared to the full length aftermarket types (I know, some 1911's now come full length from the factory, but I'm refering to the way that J.M.Browning designed the pistol).
It also seems that a stainless gun is more tolerant of the heavier parts than a carbon-steel version. Stainless tends to be not as hard, on the surface, but tougher internally, with better elasticity.



uncle albert