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jonathon
09-10-2005, 18:32
Original Question:
Is it okay to leave them loaded for say, a month or so? I have 2 31 round mags with +2's on them.... so 33 rounds total.

The answer:

Originally posted by SlammedDime
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369
American Handgunner: Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'


The shooting sports are full of some of the most knowledgeable and capable people you'll meet anywhere. I've been impressed consistently with the abilities of those I meet at the range to diagnose and fix a gun problem with as little as some spray lube and a cotton swab. However, sometimes a myth will creep into the folklore.

The magazine spring myth has been around for many years and is growing in popularity. It goes something like this: "You should unload your magazines when they're not in use or the spring will weaken causing failures to feed." This has gone as far as shooting competitors actually unloading their magazines between stages to extend the life of their springs. A variant of this myth is: "You should never load a magazine to capacity and should always leave it one round short." What if you need that round some day?

Recently, I read an article in a gun magazine suggesting you rotate your magazines so the ones not in use can "recover and rest." The same author uses the phrase "spring-set" to describe weakness of a spring because it was compressed for a long time. Hogwash. There's nothing further from the truth. Springs don't care how long they're compressed and don't require rest, recreation or even a vacation from time to time.

Shameful Spring Benders

To put this one to rest, you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years. American Handgunner recently ran a story about a magazine full of .45 ACP that had been sitting since WWII and it ran just fine on the first try. So there you go.

Now that the light of truth is leaking out, lets talk about what is causing failures to feed. The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. Both of these could cause feed failures. Shame on you if you're a spring bender.

Carlton Nether, Customer Service for Beretta USA, tells us keeping a pistol magazine loaded for an extended period doesn't cause magazine spring failure, however, failures to feed can result. He says, "The ammo will 'roll' in the magazine. If the mags are kept loaded and moved around a lot -- say on a cop's belt -- the rolling action can, over time, cause creases in the cases. These creases can cause malfunctions. Also the top bullet will roll against the magazine lips and creasing can occur there as well. Just check old ammo that's been bouncing around in a magazine for a long time.

We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence. This movement will allow the bullets to be in different parts of the magazine and help eliminate creasing.

At STI, Dave Skinner, President and CEO says, "Personally, I rotate my 'under the bed' and 'under the seat' mags about every six months. I always empty them the 'fun' way and have never had a failure." Given what we learned above, this sounds like a good idea. Smith and Wesson customer service also says magazines can stay loaded indefinitely without hurting the spring.

As we add force onto a spring, it will displace the same amount for each amount of force we add. This is true until the spring passes a certain point called the elastic limit. Robert Hooke discovered this theory back in 1660. Hooke's Law states: "If the applied forces on a body are not too large, the deformations resulting are directly proportional to the forces producing them." Which means, in actual human being language, if we load a spring past its elastic limit, it permanently deforms. It still provides a force against the load but the force is no longer proportional. If this happens, when we unload the spring (such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded) the spring never returns to a state where it can provide the same load for the same amount of displacement.

Trust Us

When a magazine manufacturer designs a spring, they plan for a preload. The spring is already compressed some in the magazine. On the curve below, this would be Point A. The spring compression would be designed to be below the Elastic Limit. When fully compressed, the spring would be at Point B. If the spring is ever compressed past the elastic limit, say to Point C, it won't ever behave the same. Like a recalcitrant lazy Uncle, it will have a lower spring force for each amount of displacement. On the drawing, the spring would now cycle between points D and E. This means that -- particularly with the last bullet or two -- the force pushing the bullet up would be less and lo-and-behold, a mis-feed might occur.

When somebody stretches your spring to "fix" your magazine, they are trying to get you back on the original curve. They may get pretty close, however, it's unlikely the spring will ever perform to its original design. The elastic limit is now shifted lower and your magazine spring may fail to perform fairly quickly.

Having said all this, if you have a magazine that isn't feeding right, what should you do? First, disassemble the magazine and clean it thoroughly. Then try it with new, factory ammunition in a freshly cleaned gun. This takes away some of the possible causes. If you are still having feed problems, send it back. Even the low cost, after-market magazine manufacturers will fix the problem at no cost to you other than shipping. If it's a magazine from the gun's manufacturer, let them troubleshoot and repair the problem. Otherwise, toss the mag. It's not worth risking your life to save a few bucks. And that's the truth.

RELATED ARTICLE: Definitions

Creep: The flow or plastic deformation of metals held for long periods of time at stresses lower than the normal yield strength.

Elastic Limit: The maximum stress that material will stand before permanent deformation occurs.

Yield Strength: The stress at which the metal changes from elastic to plastic in behavior, i.e., takes a permanent set.

Permanent Set: Non-elastic or plastic, deformation of metal under stress, after passing the elastic limit.

Magazine Recommendations

* Clean your magazines when they get gritty. Apply oil then remove all excess. Oil attracts dirt that may cause malfunction.

* If you find rust on the spring, this is culprit. Rust changes the thickness of the metal and reduces the force applied to the follower. Cleaning off the rust may help. For a gun you depend on, replace the spring. All the major brands and most of the smaller ones have replacement mag springs available or try Wolff Springs.

* If you keep a magazine loaded for long periods, rotate the rounds every few months. If you carry a pistol on the job or in your car, cycle the ammo frequently. These actions prevent creases from forming which may cause a misfeed.

* If you experience feed problems, first clean your magazines and weapon. Fire a couple magazines of new factory ammo to see if this resolves the problem. If not send the magazine back to the manufacturer -- or toss it.

Basically, from what I gather.. its harder on the bullets in the mag than it is on the mag to keep it loaded. Thanks guys!

;f

glockin101
09-10-2005, 19:05
Loaded mine aver 3 years ago and they still feed fine.

allglock
09-10-2005, 19:09
Originally posted by glockin101
Loaded mine aver 3 years ago and they still feed fine.

+1;)

bruce21b
09-10-2005, 19:31
not a 33 rounder but I kept a couple G17 mags loaded for four years and just shot them a week ago without a hiccup...

j6721
09-10-2005, 20:40
All of my mags are fully loaded all of the time and I have never had a problem.

Jim

SlammedDime
09-10-2005, 23:07
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369
American Handgunner: Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'

C9X19
09-10-2005, 23:45
Originally posted by SlammedDime
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369
American Handgunner: Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'

Good article!

jonathon
09-11-2005, 00:44
I was just worried 'cause of how long the spring is, and the fact I'm using the +2's for +2.

jonathon
09-11-2005, 00:48
That article makes sense.

Thanks!

Lumpy_3
09-11-2005, 06:43
Originally posted by G17raider
Good article!
.

RoninP80
09-11-2005, 08:00
The mags I keep full/ready are never rotated (Glk & AR). The only time they would require attention is if; the mag/ammo became contaminated and/or damaged, or if they needed to be refilled.

what wears out a spring is flexing, not setting static

jonathon
09-11-2005, 15:47
How'd this get stickied?! ;P

PennGlock
09-11-2005, 15:59
Stickied because the question comes up here all the time, and the answers, even from otherwise knowledgable people, are often wrong.

Magazines may be kept loaded to their full capacity without any harm being done.

There is no need to take the last round out when storing them!

Razoreye
09-12-2005, 10:56
Since this is stickied then I'll copy + paste the article here for future reference should the aformentioned site remove it. Good read, I was always curious as well.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic..._27/ai_99130369

Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'
American Handgunner, May-June, 2003 by John S. Layman

Save a personal copy of this article and quickly find it again with Furl.net. It's free! Save it.
The shooting sports are full of some of the most knowledgeable and capable people you'll meet anywhere. I've been impressed consistently with the abilities of those I meet at the range to diagnose and fix a gun problem with as little as some spray lube and a cotton swab. However, sometimes a myth will creep into the folklore.

The magazine spring myth has been around for many years and is growing in popularity. It goes something like this: "You should unload your magazines when they're not in use or the spring will weaken causing failures to feed." This has gone as far as shooting competitors actually unloading their magazines between stages to extend the life of their springs. A variant of this myth is: "You should never load a magazine to capacity and should always leave it one round short." What if you need that round some day?

Recently, I read an article in a gun magazine suggesting you rotate your magazines so the ones not in use can "recover and rest." The same author uses the phrase "spring-set" to describe weakness of a spring because it was compressed for a long time. Hogwash. There's nothing further from the truth. Springs don't care how long they're compressed and don't require rest, recreation or even a vacation from time to time.

Shameful Spring Benders

Continue article
Advertisement


To put this one to rest, you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years. American Handgunner recently ran a story about a magazine full of .45 ACP that had been sitting since WWII and it ran just fine on the first try. So there you go.

Now that the light of truth is leaking out, lets talk about what is causing failures to feed. The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. Both of these could cause feed failures. Shame on you if you're a spring bender.

Carlton Nether, Customer Service for Beretta USA, tells us keeping a pistol magazine loaded for an extended period doesn't cause magazine spring failure, however, failures to feed can result. He says, "The ammo will 'roll' in the magazine. If the mags are kept loaded and moved around a lot -- say on a cop's belt -- the rolling action can, over time, cause creases in the cases. These creases can cause malfunctions. Also the top bullet will roll against the magazine lips and creasing can occur there as well. Just check old ammo that's been bouncing around in a magazine for a long time.

We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence. This movement will allow the bullets to be in different parts of the magazine and help eliminate creasing.

At STI, Dave Skinner, President and CEO says, "Personally, I rotate my 'under the bed' and 'under the seat' mags about every six months. I always empty them the 'fun' way and have never had a failure." Given what we learned above, this sounds like a good idea. Smith and Wesson customer service also says magazines can stay loaded indefinitely without hurting the spring.

As we add force onto a spring, it will displace the same amount for each amount of force we add. This is true until the spring passes a certain point called the elastic limit. Robert Hooke discovered this theory back in 1660. Hooke's Law states: "If the applied forces on a body are not too large, the deformations resulting are directly proportional to the forces producing them." Which means, in actual human being language, if we load a spring past its elastic limit, it permanently deforms. It still provides a force against the load but the force is no longer proportional. If this happens, when we unload the spring (such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded) the spring never returns to a state where it can provide the same load for the same amount of displacement.

Trust Us

When a magazine manufacturer designs a spring, they plan for a preload. The spring is already compressed some in the magazine. On the curve below, this would be Point A. The spring compression would be designed to be below the Elastic Limit. When fully compressed, the spring would be at Point B. If the spring is ever compressed past the elastic limit, say to Point C, it won't ever behave the same. Like a recalcitrant lazy Uncle, it will have a lower spring force for each amount of displacement. On the drawing, the spring would now cycle between points D and E. This means that -- particularly with the last bullet or two -- the force pushing the bullet up would be less and lo-and-behold, a mis-feed might occur.

When somebody stretches your spring to "fix" your magazine, they are trying to get you back on the original curve. They may get pretty close, however, it's unlikely the spring will ever perform to its original design. The elastic limit is now shifted lower and your magazine spring may fail to perform fairly quickly.

Having said all this, if you have a magazine that isn't feeding right, what should you do? First, disassemble the magazine and clean it thoroughly. Then try it with new, factory ammunition in a freshly cleaned gun. This takes away some of the possible causes. If you are still having feed problems, send it back. Even the low cost, after-market magazine manufacturers will fix the problem at no cost to you other than shipping. If it's a magazine from the gun's manufacturer, let them troubleshoot and repair the problem. Otherwise, toss the mag. It's not worth risking your life to save a few bucks. And that's the truth.

RELATED ARTICLE: Definitions

Creep: The flow or plastic deformation of metals held for long periods of time at stresses lower than the normal yield strength.

Elastic Limit: The maximum stress that material will stand before permanent deformation occurs.

Yield Strength: The stress at which the metal changes from elastic to plastic in behavior, i.e., takes a permanent set.

Permanent Set: Non-elastic or plastic, deformation of metal under stress, after passing the elastic limit.

Magazine Recommendations

* Clean your magazines when they get gritty. Apply oil then remove all excess. Oil attracts dirt that may cause malfunction.

* If you find rust on the spring, this is culprit. Rust changes the thickness of the metal and reduces the force applied to the follower. Cleaning off the rust may help. For a gun you depend on, replace the spring. All the major brands and most of the smaller ones have replacement mag springs available or try Wolff Springs.

* If you keep a magazine loaded for long periods, rotate the rounds every few months. If you carry a pistol on the job or in your car, cycle the ammo frequently. These actions prevent creases from forming which may cause a misfeed.

* If you experience feed problems, first clean your magazines and weapon. Fire a couple magazines of new factory ammo to see if this resolves the problem. If not send the magazine back to the manufacturer -- or toss it.

COPYRIGHT 2003 Publishers' Development Corporation
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group

thooks
09-12-2005, 19:36
Originally posted by jonathon
How'd this get stickied?! ;P

Agreed. How many people have a G18?

Maybe the title should be changed to "Leaving 33 round magazines Loaded"


No telling how many folks that would benefit from this thread that skip over it (like I did) just because it says "G18".


Just a thought...

SlammedDime
09-12-2005, 20:24
Originally posted by thooks
Maybe the title should be changed to "Leaving magazines Loaded" Fixed it for ya... :)

metroplex
09-13-2005, 03:44
Originally posted by thooks
Agreed. How many people have a G18?

Maybe the title should be changed to "Leaving 33 round magazines Loaded"


No telling how many folks that would benefit from this thread that skip over it (like I did) just because it says "G18".


Just a thought...

FYI No such thing as a 33rd G17/G19 mag. There is, however, factory made 31rd +2 (7151) G18 mags.

jonathon
09-13-2005, 09:32
I'm going to fix up the first post.. and PM eric about a title change then :)

Razoreye
09-13-2005, 13:55
I quoted it first!! ;f

jonathon
09-13-2005, 16:13
^<wg

Ken Rainey
09-13-2005, 19:34
Said about loading a spring past it's elastic limit: quote "(such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded)" end quote. How's that done? Unless you modify the magazine yourself ?? Or - The company does it for you - such as 8rds in a magazine designed for 7 rds! ???


Magazine springs don't wear out from being loaded to capacity - true, if you only load them once (or a very few times) and leave them like that...

Every spring wears out (looses energy) with use. Thus, the more it's used the sooner it will wear out and cause malfunctions. Springs can't rest and recover their expended energy and stretching them is even worse. A field expedient method of temporarily reviving the spring in some magazines is to get some pliers and bend the bottom leg of the spring down a tad. The manufacturer may replace your springs for free or they may not. I've been told by some that it's normal wear and they charge you for them and some will smile and give you new springs or even new magazines.

Keeping a new mag fully loaded and only using it for defense and changing the rds out twice a year should let it last a very, very long time but a prudent person would still replace them with some regularity.

Keeping a magazine fully loaded and using it for practice two to four times a month (or more) with several loading/firing cycles will wear it out sooner and problems will arise - but at what moment? During practice or when it's a life threatening situation?

Springs are manufactured items and every spring will not have the same stored energy or longevity, they'll be close if manufacturing processes were kept proper but therein lies the "murphy" factor - and therefore if we treat every spring as if it may be the one that come out of a batch that didn't quite get the proper process, then maybe we'll not have to find out at a critical moment that it's just to weak to feed our defense ammo.

So, for me, never loading a defensive magazine to capacity gives me an edge in reliable feeding...by less stress on the spring and also by less pressure on the slide the bullets are pushing against during the firing cycle - every little bit helps.

I have magazines for defensive use and magazines for practice for each pistol. The defensive magazines are never fully loaded and are only used when replacing the defensive ammo, inspected, cleaned, and reloaded. The practice mags are used just for practice and are usually never fully loaded at that time.

Remember the article from Chuck Taylor that described his experience with his Glock 17? In it he tells of how the first two sets of magazines would stop locking the slide back on empty (sign of a weak spring) after so much use (around 33,000 rds I think) and then he started downloading the new magazines by two rds and the problem went away...hmmmmm.


edited to say that I looked it up and the 33,000 rds were the total thru the pistol where he had the first ftf. The mag failures came with the first set around 5,000 rds and on the second set with an additional 6,000 rds = 11,000 total....then he started downloading them.

Jim
09-15-2005, 19:22
My impression is that Glock really "pushed the envelope" when they designed the mags and springs. With less than a thousand rounds through the gun and very little loading/unloading of the mags, I had 2 out of 3 mags springs go bad in a second gen G19. One would produce occasional failures to feed (usually not on the last round), the other would fail to lock the slide back when empty. New springs fixed 'em both.

Conversely, I had 12 mags for a Browning Hi Power that lasted over 10 years of use with no problems. Some of them were kept fully loaded, some of them were loaded/unloaded every month or two, and the practice mags were often kept fully loaded AND used a lot. After ten years I compared the springs- all the same length. BTW, I would top off the mag after loading one round into the chamber; the springs were as fully comprssed as you could get.

Now that I carry a new G19, I load the mags to 15 but don't top off after chambering a round. The slide pushes the top cartridge down enough that 15 rds in a mag that is seated in the gun, is about like loading 15 3/4 rounds.

Of course some guys load their glock mags to capacity and then top after chambering a round, and they have no problems. I think that will work if your springs are perfect, anything slightly off-spec will produce problems sooner than in some other guns.

Scouse
09-16-2005, 14:40
Remember the article from Chuck Taylor that described his experience with his Glock 17? In it he tells of how the first two sets of magazines would stop locking the slide back on empty (sign of a weak spring) after so much use (around 33,000 rds I think) and then he started downloading the new magazines by two rds and the problem went away...hmmmmm.

An other part that wears is the Slide lock lever! Slide release on any other pistol! It is only a wee piece of steel, and they do wear, the locking corner gets a little rounded.

All things mechanical wear, Glock keeps improving the magazines! I keep replacing them! Don’t think I will ever have any wear factors on my magazines.

allglock
09-16-2005, 18:25
Originally posted by Jim
My impression is that Glock really "pushed the envelope" when they designed the mags and springs. With less than a thousand rounds through the gun and very little loading/unloading of the mags, I had 2 out of 3 mags springs go bad in a second gen G19. One would produce occasional failures to feed (usually not on the last round), the other would fail to lock the slide back when empty. New springs fixed 'em both.

Conversely, I had 12 mags for a Browning Hi Power that lasted over 10 years of use with no problems. Some of them were kept fully loaded, some of them were loaded/unloaded every month or two, and the practice mags were often kept fully loaded AND used a lot. After ten years I compared the springs- all the same length. BTW, I would top off the mag after loading one round into the chamber; the springs were as fully comprssed as you could get.

Now that I carry a new G19, I load the mags to 15 but don't top off after chambering a round. The slide pushes the top cartridge down enough that 15 rds in a mag that is seated in the gun, is about like loading 15 3/4 rounds.

Of course some guys load their glock mags to capacity and then top after chambering a round, and they have no problems. I think that will work if your springs are perfect, anything slightly off-spec will produce problems sooner than in some other guns.

I always download by one round on my Glocks.
Call me silly!;f

SIGShooter
09-17-2005, 08:29
extremely interesting read!!! I quess I was one of those guys who would try to reform the springs by stretching them a little. I now know why they were being worn before their time. I'll stop doing that and replace the springs with new ones and start from a clean slate. Thanks for that info guys!!!

dapolice1
09-17-2005, 11:24
Originally posted by Jim
the other would fail to lock the slide back when empty. New springs fixed 'em both.


Logic would say your problem was springs, but I had a fellow officer with same issues in a G22. It was also FTF. He tried everything and finaly sent it to glock. They replaced his followers with the new design, and viola. Problem fixed. Would leave me to believe that SOME of the earlier mag issues were actually follower problems. Springs do wear out like everthing else.

I choose to rotate them on my duty weapon every month or so, just for peace of mind. I also use range mags for the range and duty mags for duty. The range mags are dropped onto the concrete during relods and thus MIGHT effect the mag bodies and spring. I do not take a chance. My duty mags will only hit the ground once!!!

George in TX
09-18-2005, 13:44
FWIW, I have always kept all my Glock magazines fully loaded without any problems whatsoever! That includes all sizes of magazines of genuine Glock manufacture. :soap:

bluemeanie
09-23-2005, 08:52
Hmmm. How will I allocate that extra time I gain from not rotating mags? If I'd paid attention to anything other than "conventional wisdom" I'd have noted a long time ago that it was my IDPA mags that weakened. The ones that were constantly loaded and then unloaded. The fun way.

Bikewer
09-24-2005, 18:03
Hehe- first post, may as well jump in....

I recall reading one or other of the gun magazines years ago where they had found some 1911 magazines that had been left loaded since WWII... Worked perfectly.

IndyTx
09-25-2005, 20:16
they had found some 1911 magazines that had been left loaded since WWII... Worked perfectly. [/B]

Reminds me of the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. You just know the government has a giant building filled with WWII 1911's loaded and ready to go :)

Scouse
09-25-2005, 20:49
When I lived in the UK, in the early sixties, I got a call from the local Police Station, "Mike can you come and look at this gun this Lady handed in" off I went, big grease proof brown paper bag, in it a WW11 Sten Gun, bolt forward, magazine snapped in.
(English Police and guns!!!?)

An other mag; in the bag also, loaded, took mag; off the gun, loaded! Cycled the bolt, perfect, unscrewed the barrel, pulled it through with a piece of string, and a bit of cloth, like new.

Off to the local tip, ear plugs in, a few bursts later, locked back, every round fired, picked up 60 shell caseings.The magazines would have been loaded 20 or so years then.

When the old guy passed away, the Sten was under the bed, ready to go! Make my day would have taken on a whole new meaning to a burglar!

Know Nothing
10-04-2005, 10:10
First, it's funny about the old guy and the Sten.

Second, it's funny how the "download your magazine, rotate your ammo" myth lives on, even in this post! Reasons:
* One guy had malfunctions after 33,000 rounds
* Glock magazines are (supposedly) poorly designed
* Springs "lose energy" (whatever that means)
* It makes me feel better
* It's what I've always done, and I don't want to change

Let's set the record straight, once and for all. The only valid reasons to download/rotate your magazine/ammo:
* Poorly designed magazines
* Creasing of ammo carried on active duty
* It makes you feel better
* You don't want to change your stubborn ways

The shooting community was bamboozled by a bunch of writers into thinking a spring could "take set," whatever that means. Let's allow this myth to die in peace.

7.62FMJ
10-06-2005, 19:06
I remember about seven years ago some big importer/exporter outfit had WWII G.I. 1911 mags that were fully loaded and had been sitting in crates since the war. They were selling cheap but I know two people that bought some and they ran fine even after that many years. Basically they were selling surplus ball but the magazines were just thrown in to boot.

Glockdude1
10-19-2005, 18:02
There is nothing wrong with leaving mags fully loaded. Springs only develop problems by "cycling", (lots of use) someone trying to cram 17rds in a 15rd mag for example. If leaving mas loaded was a real problem, it would be widespread thru every L/E agency and in every part of the military. This is not the case.

;N

Makoman
10-25-2005, 01:41
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HurtSprings.htm

Glockdude1
10-25-2005, 09:15
Borrowed from the Wolf Web site:

"Wolff Gun Springs (www.gunsprings.com) advises that so long as the spring is not compressed more than it's designed for, being compressed to that degree does not weaken it. He goes on to say that what "wears them out" is being used, i.e., compressed and then not compressed as would be the case in a pistol's mainspring when the gun is being fired and in a magazine as it's loaded and then emptied. In over 30 years of shooting Hi Powers, I have not had to replace the original mainspring in any of my Hi Powers."

;N

oldcrow
10-25-2005, 12:36
[i]

The shooting community was bamboozled by a bunch of writers into thinking a spring could "take set," whatever that means. Let's allow this myth to die in peace. [/B]
Methinks the gun writers are merely the tip of the conspiracy iceberg here. They are merely shills for the evil corporate magazine-industrial complex. Yeah, that's the ticket. Follow the moolah - who benefits most from scaring us all into tossing our mags and buying new ones?

Huh? Anybody?

"The opinions expressed are my own, and do not reflect the views of any rational human being" ;b

oct_97
10-29-2005, 15:45
I took my old second generation Glock 19 (And original magazines), with 30K plus rounds through it/them, to a local Glock Gunsmith Guru and told him to inspect and replace as necessary. When I went back he had inspected, there was nothing to replace. When I asked about springs he told me some just seem to go on forever while others require replacement from time to time, go figure?

John

Glockdude1
10-29-2005, 15:54
Originally posted by oldcrow
Methinks the gun writers are merely the tip of the conspiracy iceberg here. They are merely shills for the evil corporate magazine-industrial complex. Yeah, that's the ticket. Follow the moolah - who benefits most from scaring us all into tossing our mags and buying new ones?

Huh? Anybody?

"The opinions expressed are my own, and do not reflect the views of any rational human being" ;b

If anyone is "tossing out" old mags, I will pick them up!!!

;N

klmmicro
11-03-2005, 17:03
Back in my Mil-Spec of the mid 80's, we came across some 1911 mags that were loaded and sealed in a tin. The date on the tin was 1965 (the year the ship I served on was officially released to duty). We opened the tin and took the mags out to the flightdeck with a couple of our .45's. Not a single jam in over 500 rounds. Those magazines are probably still feeding reliably today.

In 20 years of loaded condition there was no discernable problem with any of the magazines that were in that case. "Spring Set" is a myth best left in the dust.

chulo_glock
11-04-2005, 19:46
what wears a spring down is constantly loading it and unloading it(basic physics of a spring...go figure) so it doesnt matter if the spring is stored loaded or unloaded, either will not wear down the spring

Glockdude1
11-09-2005, 23:06
;a

omnivore75
11-13-2005, 21:42
Jeff Cooper (who may be unstable at this point hehe) reported in his back page Guns N Ammo article a few months back about sub gun I believe it was that had been stored since WW2 with the mags fully loaded and it fired just fine. I read that myself. He went on to say something about the extent to which our world relies on springs and how far they had come.

Moodle
11-14-2005, 10:40
When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

Moodle

omnivore75
11-14-2005, 12:37
Originally posted by Moodle
When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

Moodle I'm not sure if I buy that one. I have no doubt thats what you were told but it is hard to believe. The pressure of the spring is fine for a while but over time it will slowly deform the ammo?? Hard to swallow, but then again anything is possible. Myself, I prefer to always keep my mags loaded and ready and keep a couple of new mags laid back in case there is a problem but in all my years of shooting/collecting firearms I have never had a problem with keeping my mags loaded.

Glockdude1
11-14-2005, 12:51
Originally posted by Moodle
When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

Moodle

If the ammo is "deforming" in the mag, it is time to stop buying the "cheap" ammo!! LOL

;N

racine
11-14-2005, 16:59
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. My question now is then why do factory ParaOrdnance 45, factory HK USP 45, Glock 22 mag springs shorten when kept loaded for 6 months or more? Most of my CCW mags are usually the pick of the litter, fired a few times to test their reliability with factory ball and defense ammo, cleaned then relegated to CCW or home defense duty. But I've noticed that in the process of bi-annually cycling them into an IDPA/USPSA match I invariably end up with cycling problems, specifically stove pipes or FTF the last 1 or 2 rounds. Examining the mags yields springs a full inch shorter than new factory or wolff springs. You will notice that these are all double stack mags in question. On the other hand I never saw these with my single stack mags whatsoever?! I saved these deformed and shortened springs for a few years until I decided I really had no use for them save being a reminder. So now I read your post and references to the Am.HG mag and now I'm perplexed. I happen upon a posting from an engineer on the 1911 forums who comments;

"...My other post follows:

I am a Mechanical Engineer. I cringe every time Am Handgunner treads into the field of engineering. Journalists who don't know what they are talking about should consult someone who has actual technical training.

Creep does happen in ferritic materials.

Plastic deformation does happen in over compressed or over extended springs. The question is one of proper spring design and choice of the correct metallurgy. All of the generalizations in the Am Handgunner article have extremely common exceptions. All of those generalizations reflect "invincible ignorance" on the part of the writer.

Whenever I read this nonsense in Am Handgunner I think I should write a letter. Then I think why waste my time?

Ever wonder why your recoil spring gets shorter with use? It is because the spring design is such that whatever steel Wolff uses creeps or even yields under the cyclic compression loading. The metal MUST move for the spring to become shorter at rest. There's no other way it can happen. BTW that's ferritic material.

Ever wonder why this happens faster with a Wolff spring than it does with an IMSI spring? Because IMSI (or Nowlin) uses Cr-Si alloyed steel, which (as heat treated) has a higher yield strength than the Wolff metallurgy, so the Yield Strength of the material is much higher, and the creep process is much slower.

This is not a subject for simpletons looking for a one size fits all answer. In some mags the spring may be very lightly loaded, or overengineered. In others, the opposite may be the case. The ultimate answer is tied up in the interplay of spring loading and design criteria, combined with choice of metallurgy.

You would have to understand the design criteria for the mag (some are really hard on the spring because of how many rounds they're trying to jam in there with a really short follower). You will have to understand the metallurgy of the string. Was it heat treated right? How do you know? If strain hardened, did the spring maker draw the material right? How do you know? Do you even know that the material is certified at the claimed composition?

Notice how one poster said some springs have done fine, and others failed quickly? Probably a QC problem with spring metallurgy or heat treat. Inconsistent from batch to batch.

This is why aerospace and military manufacturers require "certifications" for metallurgy and heat treat. The answer changes completely based on little details.

That AH blurb was typical of the type of uninformed drivel that they've been printing lately. Ever since they went to the format that has several blurbs on a page, their reporting has gotten less and less in-depth, and more and more generalized. And in technical subjects, generalizations are for fools. It is a technical subject BECAUSE THE LITTLE THINGS MAKE A DIFFERENCE. But these guys are too ignorant to even know what the little things are. That stupid writer may get someone killed.

In the meantime I'll be sure there are fresh springs in my carry mags.

BTW the ultimate strength of metal in a spring is irrelevant. Ultimate strength is the loading where the metal comes apart. In a spring design you don't want to go over the yield strength (another concept that Am Handgunner got garbled up). The definition of yield strength is a bit complicated, but suffice it to say that it is the point where the metal begins to plastically deform. "Plastically deform" is engineer-talk for "bend"

For those interested in actual knowledge on the subject, find a copy of "Mechanical Engineering Design" by Shigley and Mitchell. In my 4th ed (1983), Chapter 10 is devoted to spring design. Chapter 4 includes a section on Creep, and section 4-5 details creep effects of time and temperature on ferritic materials.

Here's an idea. How about we take all of our questionable springs and send them to that writer so he can install them in his carry gun's mags? Maybe we should make the offer!.."


Though I profess NOT to be an engineer, I do come from a scientific background and I am more inclined to depend on quantitative data and experience together rather than unsubstantiated claims, assumptions and experience alone.
Racine

racine
11-14-2005, 17:20
I thought I'd add a comment from Marc Cosat at ISMI on gun springs.

"...ISMI premium springs are manufactured exclusively with certified aerospace specification alloys; stainless or chrome silicon. Then our springs are heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after winding to enhance performance and durability. Our springs utilize the same design and manufacturing technology as used in IndyCar and Formula One racing. In a typical 500 mile race, a valve spring in an IndyCar will go through more than 2,500,000 compression cycles. Consideration of factors such as modulus, wire diameter, mean diameter, active coils, total deflection, spring relaxation, maximum service temperature, and operating environment; results in you having modern spring technology available for your pistol.

Because of the properties of music wire; it cannot be heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after the spring is wound. Additionally, music wire lacks consistency from bulk lot to bulk lot. This results in inconsistent performance from spring to spring. This is the same technology that was in use 90 years ago when John Browning designed the 1911 style pistol.

We believe that springs shouldn’t be an ongoing worry or concern for the shooter. Springs should be an annual routine maintenance item. Change them once a year; go shoot and have fun..."

racine
11-19-2005, 19:28
This from Wolff's website. Seems to contradict some observations some "experts" assert...

"...4. How often should I change my springs?

Wolff Gunsprings are made with the highest grade materials and workmanship. Most Wolff [recoil] springs will remain stable for many thousands of rounds. The performance of your gun is the best indicator of when a spring needs to be replaced. Factors such as increasing ejection distance, improper ejection and/or breaching, lighter hammer indents on primers, misfires, poor cartridge feeding from magazines, frequent jams, stove pipes and other malfunctions are all possible indications of fatigued springs or improper springs. Springs that are subject to higher stress applications such as magazine springs, striker springs and recoil springs will require more frequent replacement than other less stressed springs. Most Wolff recoil springs should be capable of 3000-5000 rounds minimum before changing is required. Some recoil springs in compact pistols, especially where dual springs are replaced by a single spring may require changing after 750 - 1500 rounds. Changes in your firearm's performance are one of the best indicators that a change is needed.




5. Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? How often should I change magazine springs?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as law enforcement applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs which are loaded up only when shooting. Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. Older designs where maximum capacity was not the goal such as the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was a lot of room for a lot of spring which reduced the overall stress on the spring. In recent hi-capacity magazines, the magazines were designed to hold more rounds with less spring material. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but is not always practical. In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular shooting will verify reliability and regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs..."

I personally have had to replace several Wolff springs. I admit most of my guns are hicap double stacks from 10-20 rounds in 40-45.

Scouse
11-20-2005, 09:23
Once at the Glock factory (1985) in Austria, I was told that Glock did not manufacture their springs, but purchased from a sub contractor? Now make their own?

For years on the wall of my reloading cubby hole I kept a new G17 mag; spring that was next to one that was an inch shorter, an old one, I routinely changed springs when they lost that inch, but never remember a problem with this inch down. Did the same with firing pin springs.

jobob
11-25-2005, 01:09
I like to carry my reload magazines one round down, not to relieve pressure on the spring, but to make reloading easier. More than once I've failed to fully seat the magazine on a reload. That one round makes quite a distance in the force needed to seat the mag.

a1911owner
11-27-2005, 01:29
Originally posted by racine
I thought I'd add a comment from Marc Cosat at ISMI on gun springs.

"...ISMI premium springs are manufactured exclusively with certified aerospace specification alloys; stainless or chrome silicon. Then our springs are heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after winding to enhance performance and durability. Our springs utilize the same design and manufacturing technology as used in IndyCar and Formula One racing. In a typical 500 mile race, a valve spring in an IndyCar will go through more than 2,500,000 compression cycles. Consideration of factors such as modulus, wire diameter, mean diameter, active coils, total deflection, spring relaxation, maximum service temperature, and operating environment; results in you having modern spring technology available for your pistol.

Because of the properties of music wire; it cannot be heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after the spring is wound. Additionally, music wire lacks consistency from bulk lot to bulk lot. This results in inconsistent performance from spring to spring. This is the same technology that was in use 90 years ago when John Browning designed the 1911 style pistol.

We believe that springs shouldn’t be an ongoing worry or concern for the shooter. Springs should be an annual routine maintenance item. Change them once a year; go shoot and have fun..."

He is selling a product, and wants to make money. You can't make money if people don't buy your product.

Spring set under load is a myth. If it were true, you would have to replace the springs in your car every few thousand miles, but you don't.

The reason that mag springs wear out is the same reason that firing pin springs, and recoil springs have to be replaced. from compression and decompression. But the recoil spring and firing pin springs are under a whole different set of stresses than a mag spring.

If this guy believes this, I guess that he changes his car's springs ever time he rotates his tires.

racine
11-27-2005, 23:30
"...He is selling a product, and wants to make money. You can't make money if people don't buy your product.

Spring set under load is a myth. If it were true, you would have to replace the springs in your car every few thousand miles, but you don't..."

Your point is well taken. But you still have to consider the concept of quality control. If I don't have to replace my ISMI springs but every 2-3 yrs vs every year with the Wolff then I have saved some money and myself frustration. I would not knock it unless you've tried it. To suggest generalities about spring performance without taking into consideration ALL THE MANY variables involved is reckless and foolhardy. I don't think you can reasonably compare gun springs to automobile (let alone performance cars)springs. Just a different animal altogether.

a1911owner
11-28-2005, 15:06
Originally posted by racine
Your point is well taken. But you still have to consider the concept of quality control. If I don't have to replace my ISMI springs but every 2-3 yrs vs every year with the Wolff then I have saved some money and myself frustration. I would not knock it unless you've tried it. To suggest generalities about spring performance without taking into consideration ALL THE MANY variables involved is reckless and foolhardy. I don't think you can reasonably compare gun springs to automobile (let alone performance cars)springs. Just a different animal altogether. [/B]

I have used ISMI springs, and found no difference in them than in wolff springs. I will even go so far as to say that the Wolff springs are better because they are the CORRECT LENGTH when you buy them, and you don't have to guess what length to trim them to.

A spring is a spring is a spring, just as a nail is a nail is a nail, so the analogy is very reasonable. THe concept is the same.

racine
11-28-2005, 16:40
Your analogy is flawed based on basic metallurgy alone. If a "...spring is a spring..." then why have all manner of industries come up with validity testing, Quality Controls, Random Sampling to maintain a higher standard of product and improve on what we once had. If I were to follow your analogy then I'd still be driving a model T, using iron nails on my roof, drinking water from the river... Sorry, that kind of thinking did not get us to the moon...

a1911owner
11-29-2005, 00:15
Originally posted by racine
Your analogy is flawed based on basic metallurgy alone. If a "...spring is a spring..." then why have all manner of industries come up with validity testing, Quality Controls, Random Sampling to maintain a higher standard of product and improve on what we once had. If I were to follow your analogy then I'd still be driving a model T, using iron nails on my roof, drinking water from the river... Sorry, that kind of thinking did not get us to the moon...

THe point is that the CONCEPT BEHIND SPRINGS IS THE SAME.

Of course this guy says his springs are better. He wants to sell them and make money.

But are they REALLY any better? Not really, and I have used ISMI before.

If you want to get into theory and all the rest of it, it would be better for them to sell springs PRECUT, instead of having you do it at home with who knows what kind of tool. THat way they can regulate the cut, the direction of the grain (yes, metal has a 'grain') and temper the cut.

But they don't.

Like I said, if he REALLY thinks that spring set is a REAL problem, then he must get his springs changed every rotation, because spring set would affect ALL springs, not just mag springs.

racine
12-03-2005, 00:42
"...If you want to get into theory and all the rest of it, it would be better for them to sell springs PRECUT, instead of having you do it at home with who knows what kind of tool. THat way they can regulate the cut, the direction of the grain (yes, metal has a 'grain') and temper the cut. But they don't.
Like I said, if he REALLY thinks that spring set is a REAL problem, then he must get his springs changed every rotation, because spring set would affect ALL springs, not just mag springs..."

I get it, you're joking right? How does PRECUTing "regulate the direction of the grain or the temper of the cut??? I think your grasping at staws here. Seriously though, ISMI sells their springs long to accomodate the hundreds of different "OEM" magazine lengths, styles, and capacities so you yourself can determine what length works best for your needs. I'm sorry those springs don't work for you but for my SA45 7/8/10 rounder, HK USP45 12/17 rounder, G35 15/20 rounder magazines are all ISMI. Given them a call, I'm sure he would be glad to refund your money. I don't work for them nor do I purposely advertise for them, I just know their springs work. Funny, for the longest time I thought BMW too was just a whole lot of hype- till I drove one.

a1911owner
12-03-2005, 19:02
Originally posted by racine
"...If you want to get into theory and all the rest of it, it would be better for them to sell springs PRECUT, instead of having you do it at home with who knows what kind of tool. THat way they can regulate the cut, the direction of the grain (yes, metal has a 'grain') and temper the cut. But they don't.
Like I said, if he REALLY thinks that spring set is a REAL problem, then he must get his springs changed every rotation, because spring set would affect ALL springs, not just mag springs..."

I get it, you're joking right? How does PRECUTing "regulate the direction of the grain or the temper of the cut??? I think your grasping at staws here. Seriously though, ISMI sells their springs long to accomodate the hundreds of different "OEM" magazine lengths, styles, and capacities so you yourself can determine what length works best for your needs. I'm sorry those springs don't work for you but for my SA45 7/8/10 rounder, HK USP45 12/17 rounder, G35 15/20 rounder magazines are all ISMI. Given them a call, I'm sure he would be glad to refund your money. I don't work for them nor do I purposely advertise for them, I just know their springs work. Funny, for the longest time I thought BMW too was just a whole lot of hype- till I drove one.

Have you ever bought a recoil spring from them? I have and it had to be cut to the proper length.
It's not grasping at straws when you read what the guy from ISMI wrote about their desire to control quality to the nth degree, so why leave a variable, and go on about qc this and qc that?
Sorry, but I have used OEM and aftermarket springs, and the best ones I've found so far are Wilson springs for 1911s and Wolff for everything else.

I don't dispute the fact that they may shotpeen their springs, or do what they claim to do, but when they go into a sales pitch in a spring discussion, you really have to wonder.....

I never said that their springs were crap, but when he statrted to prattle about how much they go into QC, why leave a variable like cutting the spring? The ycan figure out the best tension for a certain mag size, and sell them precut, and shot peened, and relieved at the cut if it REALLY makes as much difference as THEY claim.

Glockdude1
12-04-2005, 10:33
So far in the years I have been into weapons, I have only had to change 1 mag spring. It was for a factory 15rd beretta mag I picked up at a gun show for $5. Why $5? Because it was a VERY USED MILITARY MAG. The spring was very weak from god only knows how many rds. I had the mag refinished, along with a new spring. I kept the original follower in it. Works great.

;N

R3508
12-12-2005, 00:24
I shoot often enough and rotate my mags (always fresh ammo) never had a problem, I am on Glock #8.

_________________________________

R3508 G17 1st gen
NRA Member
Super Genius of the Universe

g23defender
12-14-2005, 18:48
i keep mine loaded all the time. i never had a problem with a magazine.(but i do go out to the range each month.)

EAGLESFANPHILA
12-20-2005, 18:16
My uncle had an old 25 calibur pistol he hadn't shot in about 20 years. We took it to the range and it fired with those old bullets. I have no doubt Glocks will work find after 30 days.

toemag
12-26-2005, 18:07
I once had a glock mag spring break on me, it snapped about two third's down. My local gunshop had a real giggle about it. The mag spring was replaced without charge, not that it would have caused me any problem's, as I have a further 10 mag's to choose from.

Tony

Lady27
12-29-2005, 15:30
Some of this on this sounds at least comforting considering mine stay loaded a lot. But with extensions on a 9 round they comfortably take 10. Not as much pressure as when they only loaded 9. That's good too. Anyway, my husband wants to buy me some extra mags so that I can rotate, because he is still of the mind that they need rotation. They will be 15 round mags, which will be nice. So for selfish reasons I am not showing him this thread until I get those mags. Once I have my extra mags you can persuade him that I don't really need to rotate.

unclebob
12-31-2005, 19:56
Originally posted by toemag
I once had a glock mag spring break on me, it snapped about two third's down. My local gunshop had a real giggle about it. The mag spring was replaced without charge, not that it would have caused me any problem's, as I have a further 10 mag's to choose from.

Tony

Do you always carry 10 mags with you all the time? I'm a firm believer in Murphy's law. I don't care if you went out to the range and shoot you grandpas mag that has been loaded since World War 1. Would you take it and use that mag for a carry piece. I sure would not, Yes it works fine out on the practice range but when the chip are down Murhpy takes over. How many of you go out to the range and shoot a gun nothen happens. Go to a match and as soon as the buzzer goes off everything goes to hell, Murhphy's Law at work again. If you like carrying a mag in your gun that has been loaded for the last 10 years that is your prerogative. Me, I switch mags every month and change the ammo every 6 months. just like the battery in the smoke detecter. I know Murphy all to well. Just my 2 cents.

Locojmc
01-05-2006, 00:17
Great thread thanks to all for the info.;)

Glockdude1
01-09-2006, 07:21
;P

a1911owner
01-09-2006, 12:44
Originally posted by unclebob
Do you always carry 10 mags with you all the time? I'm a firm believer in Murphy's law. I don't care if you went out to the range and shoot you grandpas mag that has been loaded since World War 1. Would you take it and use that mag for a carry piece. I sure would not, Yes it works fine out on the practice range but when the chip are down Murhpy takes over. How many of you go out to the range and shoot a gun nothen happens. Go to a match and as soon as the buzzer goes off everything goes to hell, Murhphy's Law at work again. If you like carrying a mag in your gun that has been loaded for the last 10 years that is your prerogative. Me, I switch mags every month and change the ammo every 6 months. just like the battery in the smoke detecter. I know Murphy all to well. Just my 2 cents.

Nobody said never to change mag springs or rotate mags. WHat has been said is the the issue of spring set is way overblown.

You don't need to change mag springs every six months in the vast majority of cases.

toemag
01-09-2006, 18:24
Your right Unclebob, I don't always have 10 mag's on hand. On a normal range day I'll have 5 or so in the range bag, and another two in the box with the G17.

Mr. Murphy has done enough to me in the past few year's to start a thread or a blog, just on him & his escapade's. I wonder what he pack's?

We don't have a need for CCW here, if and when I carry the G17 while hunting I normally have two mag's on me, I think that 34 round's will be more than I could need. As a rule I carry the Colt Detective Special 2, with 2 speedloader's filled with SJHP.

Apart from that one spring that broke on me, I aint replaced any of the other's and they work fine.

Tony

Glockdude1
01-18-2006, 07:27
;a

mpanwar
01-20-2006, 06:26
After reading the above I am happy that our mags can stay loaded aka compressed.

However, what if I added one of those Grip Extension things (Pearce, Scherer, etc) that add +1 or +2 capacity.

Guess that may overload the spring, possibly not, what do you think?

unclebob
01-20-2006, 19:21
Originally posted by a1911owner
Nobody said never to change mag springs or rotate mags. WHat has been said is the the issue of spring set is way overblown.

You don't need to change mag springs every six months in the vast majority of cases.

That is not what I said. I have over 80 Glock mags the only springs that I have changed so far is I think 10 of them that I wanted a longer spring In the mag. Other than that All of the others are okey. I never said to change the mag springs every six months. I said For my carry gun I rotate my 5 carry mags every month, and change the ammo every 6 months. Yes the issue of spring set is probably overblown. But I'm not going to be the one that test out some ones else theory, that he or she may or may not know what they are talking about. If you want to keep your same mags load for 6 months or 6 years, that is your prerogative. It's just not mine. I don't claim to be a expert. Just almost 60 years of personal experance dealing with Mr. Murphy on and off.

drew357
01-22-2006, 10:57
When I went to Iraq in 2003 they told us not to load our M16A2 mags with the full 30 rounds. We could only load 28 rounds in 3 mags and carry 40 extra rounds on clips. But my Glock 19 and 32 always stay loaded. Never had any problem.

DocGlock2006
02-06-2006, 19:46
While the fact of my magazines being constantly loaded to "Max" for the past 7 years hardly compares to that of the WWII magazines, it does present sufficient time to assure that time compressed does not bring about significant or meaningful decrease of the springs' functional integrity. In terms of the "myth" coming in, I believe that it is not "myth", but "marketing". We are told by those who would sell us "rebuild kits" for our magazines that we "need them". Not! I have never rebuilt any magazine, and all of my magazines still function fine. This was a fantastic thread! Thank-you all! Save your money for something more significant--more magazines, not more magazine springs. :)

DocGlock2006

squirreld
02-21-2006, 14:53
I back off 1 round.

why,
-what jobob said about seating the magazine, I have had more than 1 mag fall out.
-racking the slide is much harder with the full mag.
-that last round is just a *%^$# to load and cuts my fingers after doing it all day.
-It can only help the spring.

cyberghostx13
04-01-2006, 16:39
Hello. I recently purchased a Glock 37, for "Home Defense" and some target shooting. I will only be able to shoot once a month maybe, due to being just too busy. However, carrying a firearm as in "Day Job" I do not, so I am not going to be an expert on any of this stuff. Well here's my question/scenario. I have two mags loaded, one is in the Glock(But not chambered), if I don't get to the range but once a month, how often should I unload and let magazines be empty(I just purchased 3 more for a total of 5) and also what about the bullets and rotation thereof etc. I'm a ole USMC Vietnam Veteran that is new to this(Glock and having a firearm at home for defense), and appreciate all the help I can get. CG13.

Glockdude1
04-01-2006, 21:29
cyberghostx13,

Those mags will never give you any problem being fully loaded. It is a myth (put out by spring makers) that mags springs are damaged by leaving them loaded. Always keep your Glock ready with 1 in the chamber. The bad guys always have thier weapons ready, so should you.

:cool:

cyberghostx13
04-03-2006, 22:31
Thanks for the advice Glockdude, much appreciated. CG13.

Illuminaughty
04-04-2006, 05:14
I used to have a ruger 10/22 with those 10 round factory rotary mags.. I left them loaded for a few years, and they all had feed problems, and one must've broke or something, the ammo just fell out of the mag.

I've left my ak mags loaded (about 20 or so) for years, and never had a problem with one of them. I've left my hungarian .380 loaded for years, and no problems. I've left my hi point .45 loaded for as long as I've had it (maybe a year, not much, but hey) and have had no problem.

I think its just very poorly designed/faulty/cheap mags that have problems. I keep all my guns loaded to the very last bullet and have never had a problem other than that .22 I used to have.

And before that I had an oooold .22 that loaded just fine with the magazine it came with, even after I kept it loaded for a few years strait.

Glockdude1
04-04-2006, 20:28
I too have left AK mags loaded for several years and have never had a single 30rd mag give me any problems.

:cool:

americandude
04-12-2006, 19:32
Awsome Thread!!!
I've been looking for this exact info.

I was told by a police officer once, that him and his fellow officers always load their mags to 1 less than full (12 in a 13 round mag etc.). They do this because it lowers the potential problem of a mag spring breaking. Is it common for police officers to do this? Is it common for springs to break?

Thank's again, to you all, for the valuable info.

Illuminaughty
04-12-2006, 20:25
Originally posted by americandude
Awsome Thread!!!
I've been looking for this exact info.

I was told by a police officer once, that him and his fellow officers always load their mags to 1 less than full (12 in a 13 round mag etc.). They do this because it lowers the potential problem of a mag spring breaking. Is it common for police officers to do this? Is it common for springs to break?

Thank's again, to you all, for the valuable info.

I think that's just personal ritual kind of thing.

Never heard such a thing being implemented officially/professionally.

americandude
04-12-2006, 21:19
Originally posted by Illuminaughty
I think that's just personal ritual kind of thing.

Never heard such a thing being implemented officially/professionally.

OK.

Thank you.

Illuminaughty
04-12-2006, 21:30
Originally posted by americandude
OK.

Thank you.

I've heard about an older generation of mags wearing out with he +2 extensions however. But this wasn't a consistent problem either, just with some people. If you're not modding your mags with the +2 extension and/or they're not used mags, you have nothing to worry about in my opinion.

americandude
04-12-2006, 23:38
Originally posted by Illuminaughty
I've heard about an older generation of mags wearing out with he +2 extensions however. But this wasn't a consistent problem either, just with some people. If you're not modding your mags with the +2 extension and/or they're not used mags, you have nothing to worry about in my opinion.

Good.

LoneWolfUSMC
11-07-2006, 13:25
My G21 Duty mags stay loaded 24/7

I used to use them for competition too, so they would get unloaded and reloaded with ball ammo for the match, then reloaded with Hydrashock at the end.

Now I have a extra set of mags, so the only time the duty mags get unloaded is during qualification (use the old duty ammo to qual with).

I have never had a problem with them and they get the crap beaten out of them on my belt.

My AR15 mags stay loaded constantly as well, but department policy is to download by two. So I keep 28 in my 30 rounders 24/7.

Glockdude1
11-07-2006, 14:29
If leaving mags loaded was a real problem, all of us would be constantly buying new mags to replace the "worn out" mags. That is not the case.

:supergrin:

Peace Warrior
01-13-2007, 16:26
Years ago my military trained brother advised/taught me to "cycle the ammo" in my clips and always leave it one round short if I ever used an M-15 or M-16. (This was for early models' (ca.60's) jamming heart-aches that were caused and or associated with the exact tolerances of these two weapons.) He said by simply "cycling my ammo" (rearranging) the ammo in the clip, i "NEVER" had to worry about a magazine spring not functioning in other type of weapons.

I do it to this day and I dont have problems.

By the way, I have used the ORIGNAL Glock magazine that came with my first G-22, which I received in 1999, although not on purpose I have "beat up" this G-22 as a side arm for almost 8 years. Although I now carry a newer Glock for self-defense, I use my "old" G-22 as a sidearm for hunting and practice at the range. IT STILL USES THE ORIGINAL MAGAZINE WITH NO PROBLEMS. All I have ever done is "cycled my ammo." (Brother Skip, if you read this, thanks for that info!)

Peace Warrior
01-13-2007, 16:31
Sir,

It bothers me that you have your personal protection weapon being set "on stun."

"Lock and load!"

windpipe
05-16-2007, 17:57
glock springs can be kept loaded year after year. They are manufactured to handle this. My 1911 magazines suggest I replace the spring after one year of being continuously loaded.

Glockdude1
05-16-2007, 19:09
Originally posted by windpipe
My 1911 magazines suggest I replace the spring after one year of being continuously loaded.

Your Mags "told" you this?????

J/K, could'nt resist.........

:laughabove:

windpipe
05-16-2007, 20:25
ya. doc says i'm ok just as long as the gun doesnt start telling me things.

trover
06-18-2007, 23:05
This is really good info and contradicts much of what I've previously been told rather convincingly. Thanks very much.

Glockdude1
06-19-2007, 08:31
:thumbsup:

Scouse
06-19-2007, 14:07
The best follower ever made by Glock, for the 9mm, #6 the end of the spring fits inside of it, push the nose of the follower down, no tip what so ever, it just moves down wards, smooth as you like.

While you order those, might as well get new springs also, not that expensive. I am.

Glockdude1
06-19-2007, 16:05
Originally posted by Scouse
The best follower ever made by Glock, for the 9mm, #6 the end of the spring fits inside of it, push the nose of the follower down, no tip what so ever, it just moves down wards, smooth as you like.

While you order those, might as well get new springs also, not that expensive. I am.

:agree:

The #6 followers work the best. I put them in all of my G22 mags. Glock quit making the #6's. All new mags come with #8's.

:thumbsup:

zukworld
06-23-2007, 12:44
I think I have the record for this thread.

After moving to California, I went 10 years without shooting. The whole time my G17 original series #BAxxx was in the factory box, with both (17rd) mags fully loaded with Winchester Hydro-shock.

Took it to the range, fired all 34 w/out mishap. (then reloaded and shot the rest of the box.) BUT the slide failed to lock open on the empty mags.

So I had all the springs replaced, bought 2 more 17rd mags, and have been very happy since. Now I usually load only 16 as the last round is very difficult to load with my stock clip loader. For me, it's not worth the effort to get the last one in.

I also took the opportunity to have an extended slide release installed, as I find it very hard to reach with my short thumbs.

Love shooting my G17, wish I'd bought the G19 at the same time.

z

15AcreWoods
07-02-2007, 10:40
I have been told not to keep magazines loaded by experts. I have not had extensive experience with centerfire automatics being a wheel gunner, but I do have a Ruger Mark I I have had since the 60s. I have two magazines for it and have kept them loaded for for 40 years + and have had no problems with failure to load. This may be comparing apples to oranges but they are both fruit so there may be some connection.

glockman2005
07-18-2007, 20:39
I called Glock last year about this magazine question. I was told by a G tech that you should unload a Glock mag every 6 mos. & let it sit for 6 mos. good enough for me.

paper warrior
09-12-2007, 16:53
I keep the two factory 17Rd. and a Scherer 33Rd. full all of the time. No problems.

Rocetmal
11-20-2007, 16:02
If I'm going to have a gun fight, I will take a brand new never loaded Glock, Sig, or Kimber mag over any mag in the world that has been left loaded to capacity for 25 years, or even one year. A guy I certified as an instructor a few years back who owns a security firm brought a CZ over the other day with feeding problems. The spring tension was almost non existent. I told him to get a new mag, he did, and no more problems. You may say its a myth perpetuated by spring makers, but I'd disagree - also I have a good friend who is a gunsmith. I don't know, sometimes facts are good to have, and sometimes real life experience plays a different hand, who knows eh?

For reference, check out the FAQs:
http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html

Also, it is good to cycle your bullets regularly. The reason I never send the same bullet home twice ever is that the kinetic energy expended when the slide slams forward to chamber the round is enough to weaken the crimp or potential pressure that bullet can contain significantly. A bullet puller is a hammer like tool that you put the bullet into when you've screwed it up seating the bullet too deeply, and you want to pop it out and reseat it. All you do is put the bullet in a bullet case holder inside a plastic container on the hammer like object, give it one swift swing down on a table and out pops the round. That's all it takes. So, every time you send a round home, you give it at least 20% of what a bullet puller puts on it in terms of kinetic energy that loosens the crimp.

JohnKSa
03-30-2008, 01:31
Took it to the range, fired all 34 w/out mishap. (then reloaded and shot the rest of the box.) BUT the slide failed to lock open on the empty mags.Sounds like the springs "took a set". :supergrin: How could that possibly happen?

I find it amusing that often the same people who claim springs don't weaken from being left compressed will tell people who complain about their mags being hard to load fully that they should load them up and leave them for awhile. Then they'll be easier to load. Hmmm... Let's think about that for a minute.

Here's the truth about springs.

Well designed springs, constructed from good quality materials and manufactured properly will not weaken appreciably from being left compressed. If you compromise any of the above qualifiers (design, materials, manufacture) then they can weaken from being left compressed. Furthermore, springs, even ideal springs, will weaken very slowly over time from being cycled, and they will also weaken significantly if they are "over-compressed".

It's VERY rare to find a good quality single column magazine that has problems with being left fully loaded for two reasons. First of all, the spring bends tend to be very smooth (rounded) in typical single stacks while double-column mag springs often have corners and sharp bends (good design). Second, single column mags aren't usually designed with the goal of squeezing every last bit of capacity out of the gun (springs not over-compressed when fully loaded). The maker would have gone to a staggered design if that were a major design goal.

Anyone who doesn't believe springs can be weakened from constant compression just needs to talk to an experienced spring-piston airgunner. Spring-piston airguns are powered by large springs. Since those springs are the heart of airguns that may cost several hundred dollars, they are very high quality springs. And yet, any spring-piston airgun manual will tell you not to leave the gun cocked (spring compressed) for any longer than you need to. They'll tell you that shooting the gun won't hurt it, but leaving it cocked will weaken the spring. For those who doubt, this "theory", it can be and has been tested. The results of one such experiment used to be posted online but the link is now defunct. However, if you're really interested (or hard to convince), you can probably find the "R1" book by Tom Gaylord. (http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/05/how-long-does-mainspring-last-part-2.html) He includes the results of a similar test involving several premium springs from custom spring makers. Even these specially made springs showed easily measurable weakening from being left fully compressed.

The problem with spring-piston airguns is this. The spring can't be so strong that it's impossible for the average user to cock it and yet it needs to produce maximum power for its size. The compromise that airgun designers accept is to overcompress the spring. That provides a great power to size ratio while still keeping cocking effort reasonable.

Magazines are a similar compromise. Spring power can't be excessive or the ammunition will be damaged, the slide won't be able to strip rounds and the magazine will be impossible to load. But we still want to maximize capacity. Some gun makers decided that the way to achieve this is to overcompress the spring--it's no big deal, especially since springs are a low-cost maintenance item anyway. EXCEPT that many well-meaning but ill-informed people have spread the myth that springs don't ever weaken from being left compressed.

So, what's the bottom line?

Check your equipment regularly (we all do this anyway. Right?). If you note springs weakening from being left loaded, replace them with high-quality parts--first you want to eliminate the possibility of quality issues. If they weaken again from being left loaded, replace them again but now you've determined that even quality springs are going to weaken in your magazine design. You have two options at this point. You can either underload the mags by a round or two or determine how long the springs will last and simply replace them before they begin to weaken. Mag springs are cheap, even the best ones.

3919sacreflex
04-30-2008, 15:11
I agree with all that was written about leaving mags loaded without any affect on the springs. I really believe this all to be true. It makes sense.
BUT, I left two Colt .45 mags fully loaded for about 20 years. And guess what happened when I ran them through the gun? Yep...about 2 or 3 rounds from each mag were FTF. I then loaded up 3 other mags that were left empty for the same period of time and ran them through my Commander without any problems at all. All ammo was from the same batch. :faint:

Any ideas?

dp509
04-30-2008, 18:11
Several years ago, we had two officers on a domestic call where a grandfather beat his grandson. Officers arrive, grandson said that grandfather had a revolver in his truck. After officers arrived and spoke with grandson, grandfather exits residence and runs to his truck. Officers are too far away to grab him. He comes out with the revolver shooting. :wow:

One officer is carrying a Sig P220. He had never let his magazines rest or swapped magazines every month (he only had three).

The other officer is a carry a S & W .45 Long Colt 4" Nickel.

The officer with the Sig got off one round. The magazine failed to feed the next round up. :faint: He missed with his one and only round fired. :embarassed:

The second officer hit him with a .45 Long Colt in the chest. He was DRT :whistling:.

The Sig was checked and it was found that all three magazine springs were worn out. They were replaced with wolf springs. The gun ran flawless after that. He also bought extra magazines and swapped them every month.

The officer with the Sig later retired and the officer with the .45 Long Colt got promoted to SGT. :tongueout:

JohnKSa
04-30-2008, 23:56
Proof positive that at least in some cases springs weaken from being left compressed.

www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1009595055

d3athp3nguin
05-21-2008, 20:05
I remember purging my dad's 15-year old hollow points downrange that had been sitting in mags for 15 years, and I experienced no problems whatsoever. I did take apart the mags and found that the spring on one was slightly rusted, so I cleaned it. The mags still work fine, though I still have that nagging urge to buy more mags for the gun because...well... age affects everything, and those mags have been sitting loaded for a looong time...

I don't see how rotating mags and cycling ammo, say, every year would hurt. I think it is a sensible middle ground for people who are unsure about which side of this debate is "right." From either way you look at it, you are leveling out the "wear" on your mags. If you rotate your range and carry mags every year, you are either giving the range mags a break by leaving them compressed, or you are giving the carry mags a break by having them loaded less often for a year. Then you can also shoot your carry ammo out before rotating, and satisfy any paranoia about your carry ammo going bad.

Then buy two new carry mags whenever you've convinced yourself that none of your mags are reliable for carry anymore.

Problem solved!

dwebb210
09-21-2008, 07:05
... I did take apart the mags and found that the spring on one was slightly rusted, so I cleaned it. ...

I know it has been a while since anything has been added to this thread,
but after seeing this I thought it deserved a comment.

Any surface defect in a spring can serve as a place to initiate a crack.

While light surface rust may not be enough, "corrosion stress cracking"
is a real metallurgical issue and should be considered when talking about
a firearm magazine.

I wouldn't think twice about keeping the magazine for range use only,
but if it was a magazine I wanted to actually rely on, I would replace the
spring as the rust has caused at least some pitting, and increased the
likelihood of the spring to break.

On a tangent, I will add that at one time I owned of of those Scherer 33 round
magazines made for a Glock 9mm. I filled it with ammo, but never used it
in a gun. A year later I took the ammo out of that magazine, and the
spring had lost so much of it's shape that it failed to bring the last 5 rounds
to the feed lips. As stated before, there are good springs, and bad springs.
Scherer obviously doesn't know how to make good springs.

SW342
09-21-2008, 07:07
I have always left my mags loaded, but not saying that is the proper thing to do....just something I have always done.

CPT_CRUNCH
09-22-2008, 14:40
no problems here

TangoFoxtrot
10-05-2008, 11:22
Load'em to the max!

Dogguy
10-08-2008, 14:08
Very interesting thread.

But I would like to point out that the reason you hear about magazines being left loaded for decades and still being able to work perfectly is because it is an unusual event. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of magazines left loaded and unattended for extended periods of time do cease to function properly. Personally, I have four first generation, NFML G19 mags that are all due for new springs. They've been rotated regularly but they're almost 20 years old and they simply are getting baggy and saggy with age (kinda like I am :whistling:).

All springs eventually will eventually lose elasticity over time when compressed. Compare some older magazine springs and recoil springs with new ones. They flatten out a bit and don't return to their original length. I'm not a metallurgist, physicist or scientist in any respect but I do have pretty good powers of observation. And my observation is that any spring will lose some of its "spring" if you keep it compressed long enough. If I'm depending on the cartridges in that magazine to keep me alive, I'd prefer the spring to still be springy.

It will happen to your automobile springs as well, given the time and circumstances. I can remember once having a co-worker who was very obese--she probably weighed in a little over 400 pounds. She drove an old Toyota Tercel (IIRC). That little car was permanently tilted toward the driver's side, even when she wasn't sitting behind the wheel. A fine example of over compression.

Everyone has an opinion. It appears to me that those who depend on self loaders to keep them alive usually recommend some scheduled decompression of magazine springs and periodic replacement of recoil springs. It seems like common sense to me, despite what the magazine article quoted in the opening thread had to say.

But, of course, common sense is relatively uncommon these days.

PAGunner
10-09-2008, 09:20
Very interesting thread.

But I would like to point out that the reason you hear about magazines being left loaded for decades and still being able to work perfectly is because it is an unusual event. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of magazines left loaded and unattended for extended periods of time do cease to function properly. Personally, I have four first generation, NFML G19 mags that are all due for new springs. They've been rotated regularly but they're almost 20 years old and they simply are getting baggy and saggy with age (kinda like I am :whistling:).

I'm no expert, but from what I've been told is that springs wear out because of use, not from being constantly compressed at the same length. My first thought was that it does wear out the springs, but the experts beg to differ, so I'll defer to their judgement.

Glockdude1
10-19-2008, 16:02
I leave my mags loaded. Never had a problem.

:cool:

PBR Sailor
12-07-2008, 09:48
Local PD here with 200+ officers carrying Glocks. Some officers were adamant that the magazines could be loaded forever without any problems. because a Glock rep told them so. Time passed by and there have been several instances where the slide would not lock to the rear after the last shot with an old magazine. The pistol worked fine otherwise. New magazines fixed the problem. A friend of mine with the PD unloads his magazines completely once per month then loads them right back up. He's been doing that for several years with no more problems.

mikeJ
12-25-2008, 21:43
All of my mags are fully loaded all of the time and I have never had a problem.

Jim

:wow: You can't use them if they are not loaded!!!!

Glockdude1
12-26-2008, 17:26
Time passed by and there have been several instances where the slide would not lock to the rear after the last shot with an old magazine.

Still sounds good to me, the magazine fed every rd. My AK or my Uzi bolt does not lock back when the magazine is empty. No problem for me.

:supergrin:

DoubleTapFL
12-30-2008, 04:00
great article, thanks for the info

gunderwood
01-10-2009, 22:57
I decided to look at custom/high performance spring manufactures (not gun springs). I wanted to look for a generic, engineering answer and I found one.

In short, the engineering community agrees that springs do not have issues with storage in a none rest state as long as the are operated in a range of compression or elongation that does not deform the spring. Instead the consensus was that springs wear out through cycles. Thus, your mag springs get softer or wear out by loading/unloading the mags.

Storing any number of rounds in a mag (0-max) has no impact on spring performance or lifespan since you do not deform the spring (if you did it wouldn't work after the first load/unload cycle). However, changing the follower to cram another round or two into a mag might compress it enough to slightly deform it.

JohnKSa
01-11-2009, 01:01
...as long as the are operated in a range of compression or elongation that does not deform the spring...That's the major key that is usually left out of these discussions.Storing any number of rounds in a mag (0-max) has no impact on spring performance or lifespan since you do not deform the spring (if you did it wouldn't work after the first load/unload cycle). Unfortunately the first part of this statement is not universally true (though it is usually true) and the parenthetical is just plain false.

It is true that the designer will USUALLY make sure that the springs are not overcompressed, HOWEVER, there have been magazine designs, especially early in the "wondernine" era that overcompressed the magazine springs when fully loaded.

NO, they will NOT automatically fail immediately, but it does shorten the life of the spring, and it gets worse the longer it's left overcompressed. I made a post back in May of 2008 that contains a link to a test demonstrating that it's possible to overcompress a spring without causing immediate failure. Furthermore, a post made on this thread in April of 2008 gave an example of pistol magazine springs weakening from being left fully loaded for a long period. It CAN happen although it's generally not an issue.

Proper materials & manufacturing process are also important, but are mostly not an issue with quality products.

gunderwood
01-11-2009, 08:25
That's the major key that is usually left out of these discussions.Unfortunately the first part of this statement is not universally true (though it is usually true) and the parenthetical is just plain false.

It is true that the designer will USUALLY make sure that the springs are not overcompressed, HOWEVER, there have been magazine designs, especially early in the "wondernine" era that overcompressed the magazine springs when fully loaded.

The whole post is dependent on the first paragraph. A good design does not operate the springs in any manor that deforms them. Certainly some manufacturers have made mags that do deform the springs.


NO, they will NOT automatically fail immediately, but it does shorten the life of the spring, and it gets worse the longer it's left overcompressed. I made a post back in May of 2008 that contains a link to a test demonstrating that it's possible to overcompress a spring without causing immediate failure. Furthermore, a post made on this thread in April of 2008 gave an example of pistol magazine springs weakening from being left fully loaded for a long period. It CAN happen although it's generally not an issue.

We have to be careful here and define failure. All the spring manufacturers that I contacted (internet/engineering papers, email, phone) defined failure as a modified spring. If you over-compress the spring you have changed the properties of that spring. To them, with their extremely expensive equipment (spring testing machines), a spring that changes its properties (and wasn't designed too) has failed. It may still work in the application for a period of time, but is unlikely to have the lifespan or performance they designed it to have.

A simple test of gun functioning or not is not sufficient for me. I wanted to know what the engineering and physics behind springs were. The real way to test this is to take several brand new mags and remove the springs. Test them on a spring calibration machine. Then load them up and store them for a period of time and then retest. While your at it might as well have a good engineer who designs springs for a living, look at the design.

I'd love to do this, but I'm only short a calibration machine. The problem with a gun test is you can not easily eliminate all the other variables. Also, you are unlikely to have sufficient sample space to get statistical results. A gun/shooting test should also be double blind.


Proper materials & manufacturing process are also important, but are mostly not an issue with quality products.

Absolutely.

JohnKSa
01-11-2009, 18:53
It may still work in the application for a period of time, but is unlikely to have the lifespan or performance they designed it to have.Exactly.I'd love to do this, but I'm only short a calibration machine.I've considered making one of these. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to make a setup to test a specific spring, you just need a setup that allows you to compress the spring to varying degrees and a second setup that allows you to load the spring with a specified weight and measure the compression that results.

A test would be to load the spring with Y pounds and measure the compression that results as a percent of the new, uncompressed spring length. Then compress the spring to X percent of its new, uncompressed length for a period of Z days. Then decompress the spring, load the spring with Y pounds again and measure the compression again. Repeat with different levels of compression and varying amounts of time.

gunderwood
01-11-2009, 19:49
Exactly.I've considered making one of these. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to make a setup to test a specific spring, you just need a setup that allows you to compress the spring to varying degrees and a second setup that allows you to load the spring with a specified weight and measure the compression that results.

A test would be to load the spring with Y pounds and measure the compression that results as a percent of the new, uncompressed spring length. Then compress the spring to X percent of its new, uncompressed length for a period of Z days. Then decompress the spring, load the spring with Y pounds again and measure the compression again. Repeat with different levels of compression and varying amounts of time.

I have considered such a device too, but I don't know how useful it would actually be. The spring testing machines I have seen (pictures only) are dynamic and computer controlled. The computer control doesn't scare me or the sensors...calibration and filter algorithms is what I'm worried about. There almost certainly is a Kalman filter in such a test device, but that has certain linear and Gaussian error assumptions. There are such things as extended Kalman filters that are nonlinear (as well as other sorts).

If you've ever done navigation systems or sensors o(I have...tactical 6DOF and robotics) stuff the math isn't a problem. It is simply that I know just how much work is required to build a really good machine and to be honest I don't think it is worth it. For the cost and time it would probably be best make a friend and rent some time on one. Don't forget that to get a good sample space you would need at least several hundred dollars of mags (possibly thousands depending on how tight you wanted your confidence interval).

The issue is not springs, but rather the complex interaction of the system (intended usage, shooter, etc.), the handgun sub-system (in this case a Glock), the mag element and finally the spring (element component). Design, materials, usage patterns, manufacturing tolerances, etc. all matter. Given a proper design (with system requirements that are valid for a duty or self-defense gun...ie reliability matters more then adding one more round, etc.), good materials, sufficiently tight manufacturing tolerances, keeping your mags full will have no impact on mag/spring performance. That is physics. However, I am also certain that to sell guns, some manufacturers have designed mags that do deform springs (static or dynamic properties), used poor materials or quality control, etc. and keeping your mags full or even close too it will surely cause reliability problems. It is your call if you think Glock or anyone else did this or not.

In fact I would be very surprised if every major, self-defense/duty/military manufacturer hadn't done this sort of test. Governments usually require this type of test (I know this from first hand experience). Also, there is a question of liability (I'm an engineer, not a lawyer so this is just my opinion). If you were to demonstrate (do the tests we been discussing and generate confidence intervals) that the standard mags from a particular manufacturer were faulty (design, materials, tolerances, etc.) with the advertised usage patterns (military/duty/SD usage patterns are loaded mags for obvious reasons), are they not legally and financially accountable for this? I'm looking at you Beretta and your POS M9 that our soldiers are only loading 10rnds due to this very problem.

At the end of the day it is your life, so do the research/tests and make a decision. IMHO, I'm not sure why you would carry a pistol (and trust your life to it) from a manufacturer whom you think makes a faulty product that can not be used as advertised.

JohnKSa
01-11-2009, 23:25
I have considered such a device too, but I don't know how useful it would actually be.It would be very useful if you were testing to see how much compression is required to permanently weaken a spring. If you were trying to test the complex interaction between all the parts in the system then it wouldn't be very useful at all.I'm looking at you Beretta and your POS M9 that our soldiers are only loading 10rnds due to this very problem.It is my understanding that the offending mags are NOT Beretta magazines but rather aftermarket mags supplied by a low bidder....the standard mags from a particular manufacturer were faulty...I don't think that one could call a magazine design faulty because it caused shortened spring life unless the spring life was unreasonably short. Springs are inexpensive and are usually considered to be normal wear parts/"consumables". If it wouldn't even last through a normal shooting session or three, that would be one thing and there would certainly be grounds for calling those magazines faulty. If we're talking about mags that weaken after being left loaded for many months that's another story entirely.

Furthermore, unless there was a specification for "fully loaded spring life" or a test that verified that the mag design didn't overstress the spring, then there would be little grounds for any action against the manufacturer as long as they could prove that what they supplied in the buy was not the same quality as what they submitted for testing.

e.g. if I submitted a gun for testing and there was no specification for accuracy and they didn't test for accuracy then they would have little recourse for legal action against me after acceptance if they found the accuracy was dismal.

gunderwood
01-12-2009, 06:53
It would be very useful if you were testing to see how much compression is required to permanently weaken a spring. If you were trying to test the complex interaction between all the parts in the system then it wouldn't be very useful at all.Possibly. Don't forget that the very act of loading/unloading that mag would have weakened it. Unless the results were large or you tested a large number of mags, I wouldn't consider it conclusive.

Perhaps something could be built that used the standard Glock loader and new mags. I have four new G32 and two new G19 mags (never loaded as far as my knowledge). First I'd have to test the force required to compress the mag enough to allow the loading of one round. Then two rounds, etc. until full. If the resulting curves are close, then the device might be useful. However, with such a small sample space it hardly would be conclusive. Interesting, but not conclusive.

Then I would need to unload one G19 and two G32 mags, while leaving the other alone. Now how long is enough to test this? Perhaps after one week unload the mags that were left loaded and then repeat the test for several weeks? As long as the origional curves were similar and the number of cycles were kept the same, the only difference would be how long they were compressed.

Give me some time to consider this. I would only be measuring the static load at various intervals, any sort of dynamic interaction would not be measured.


I don't think that one could call a magazine design faulty because it caused shortened spring life unless the spring life was unreasonably short. ... If we're talking about mags that weaken after being left loaded for many months that's another story entirely.That is what we have been discussing. If I provided mags for the M9 for soldiers, there is reasonable expectation that they should be able to load mags to the max and leave them there for extended periods. To suggest anything else is sort of absurd. I would argue that the police/FBI/SS/etc. and self defense have similar requirements and usage patterns for mags.

G2145
02-02-2009, 23:32
Wife bought me a BDA .380 for service backup about 1977 or so. A sweet little piece. It has (4) 13-rnd mags that have been full since the day it came home and they still feed flawlessly. A half-dozen 30-rnd AR's have been full for several years and they still feed without a problem. ;-)

jimustanguitar
02-03-2009, 19:14
I would be more worried about the rounds than the spring in the mag also. My brother unloads his expensive wolf ammo to go shooting with cheap fiocchi every weekend and reloads the same 14 wolf rounds in his P99 mag every week. I would shoot them off and replace them personally, but he insists that they are fine.

I believe that rounds that stay in a mag are fine over a long period of time, but not if you are loading and unloading the same ones constantly.

I've got two mags of hornady that i'm keepin around, but I also have two other mags to take to the range. I'll probably cycle them through every couple months and replace them, but without carrying, I don't think any wear or damage will result of it.

Mag springs are cheap anyway. My followers show wear before my springs do.

Glockdude1
02-03-2009, 19:42
My brother unloads his expensive wolf ammo to go shooting with cheap fiocchi every weekend and reloads the same 14 wolf rounds in his P99 mag every week.

Expensive Wolf???

Wolf as carry ammo???

:headscratch:

jimustanguitar
02-03-2009, 19:57
I know... I'm a hornady fan, but he bought a box that was about $80 for 20 rounds or something ridiculous like that. don't ask me... I guess not being a respected brand is all the more reason to shoot 'em off and load something new in the mag.

I've only had one misfire out of over a thousand rounds in the last couple months. It happened to be the first and only fiocchi box I'd bought. Winchester is usually what I take to the range because it's been reliable for me so far. Not one missed round.

randyinaloha
02-11-2009, 14:33
I thought Wolf was "Cheap" ammo...

Anyway, with all the talk here about spring wearing out with use I guess I need to make a spring pushing machine to weaken mine.
I just cannot get the 10th round in without a hammer and I am very hesitant to do that. I did see my boss hammering his expanded reloaded .45 Long Colts into his revolver and I stood back and out of the way. Kinda scared me, but what do I know...
Randy

erichodges
03-05-2009, 23:23
you'l wear out b4 your glock mags do

erichodges
03-05-2009, 23:26
Expensive Wolf???

Wolf as carry ammo???

:headscratch:



RANGER 9mm +p BONDED JHP 124gr. :supergrin:

Dogguy
03-06-2009, 10:49
"Don't forget that the very act of loading/unloading that mag would have weakened it."

But that's what happens when you shoot up the magazine and reload it and shoot it again and....you get the idea.

"You'll wear out b4 your glock mags do."

Hopefully not. You can buy rebuild kits for Glock magazines. New springs in an old magazine makes it work like new. Unfortunately there's no rebuild kit for me.

Glockdude1
03-07-2009, 18:08
RANGER 9mm +p BONDED JHP 124gr. :supergrin:

:thumbsup:

mossy500camo
03-08-2009, 16:37
All of my mags stay loaded.

Glockdude1
03-08-2009, 18:03
All of my mags stay loaded.

:agree:

Only now, my magazines will stay loaded longer. With ammo prices the way they currently are, I won't buy any more ammo, until the prices come back down. (fingers crossed)

:cool:

bluewhite
03-08-2009, 21:39
Been lurking for a while so I thought I better register in case I wanted to post.

This mag issue probably has a thread on every gun forum out there. Who knows for sure which is the right way but I'll keep rotating my carry mags every month or two just in case.

rlc1426
06-01-2009, 23:30
Loaded mine aver 3 years ago and they still feed fine.

Just a question...if you loaded them three years ago...how do you know if it still fires? wouldn't you still have the same three year old ammo in them?

Glockdude1
06-02-2009, 06:16
Just a question...if you loaded them three years ago...how do you know if it still fires? wouldn't you still have the same three year old ammo in them?

The mags will work perfectly. Ammo will last forever if kept cool and dry.

:cool:

maraf
07-10-2009, 05:12
Great info and I totally agree on the elastic limit theory!

kikeartur
07-10-2009, 13:25
What a great thread!!!!

leaving mags loaded and weak springs are a very extended myth around the world.

(like a Mythbuster challenger)

loose-proton
07-10-2009, 18:14
*edit by OP*

springs do get weaker, but is that a problem? check out a box of surplus glock mags and compare the spring tension to new mags. seems to be a big difference, a lot more than lot to lot manufacturing variation would account for. Even in the one box of surplus mags, one can find some springs much stronger and some much weaker. There's a reason vendors sell spare mag springs.

We should think about more than just springs. sure, we can cite WWI and WWII mags still shooting fine BUT we can cite multiple examples of mag failure. If someone can't, they haven't been shooting much.

I have seen a half dozen GLOCK mags loaded by LEO and carried in the spare mag pouch for years that swelled slightly, making them stiff in the mag well for insertion and ejection. They functioned fine but stiff.

I have seen hundreds of mags rusted into non-functional condition.

I have seen spiders taking up residence in mags.

Think about sand, dirt, mold, rat piss, etc.

If someone isn't checking the mag, then maybe they're not checking the bore, either.

Ken43
07-18-2009, 23:29
Glock recommends changing out your springs every so often. Maybe that is for their benifit, however, I have worked on Glock mag's. for about 15 years and I can tell you for a fact that magazines that have been used have a shorter spring than new magazines. So to some extent they do take a set. I don't know if that has caused any malfunctions but for that reason I keep my extra magazines unloaded when in the gunsafe. The mag. in the gun I am currently using has a fully loaded mag. in it.

Glockdude1
07-19-2009, 12:50
What a great thread!!!!

leaving mags loaded and weak springs are a very extended myth around the world.

(like a Mythbuster challenger)

As long as Kari is in the show, I'll watch!! :hearts:

JERRYB
08-06-2009, 19:33
Very informative. Now i'll always leave my mags fully loaded with no concern about "stressing" the springs. ... Thanks for the valuable info. Jerryb

Glockdude1
08-07-2009, 16:08
I WANT one of my loaded magazines to fail. So far no luck. I have many magazines loaded, AK, HK, Glock, Beretta, Wilson, Drums, etc......

:supergrin:

gatorhugger
09-10-2009, 05:36
Springs do weaken from being loaded.

It may still "function" like the reports of the 30 year old mags still working.
But it willl be be pushing up those rounds very slowly, and in a couple more trips to the range may fail.

For heavens sake, once every 5 years or so, spend $5 bucks and get a new spring.
You don't have to get an entire new mag or follower if you don't want, but
a cheap spring is easy to replace and good insurance.
People spend $20 for .01 ounce of the latest gun lube every 6 months,( which is probably not needed), $1000 a year on the best bullets, but won't replace a $5 spring every 5 years.
Amazing.

kikeartur
09-10-2009, 07:04
Springs do weaken from being loaded.

It may still "function" like the reports of the 30 year old mags still working.
But it willl be be pushing up those rounds very slowly, and in a couple more trips to the range may fail.

For heavens sake, once every 5 years or so, spend $5 bucks and get a new spring.
You don't have to get an entire new mag or follower if you don't want, but
a cheap spring is easy to replace and good insurance.
People spend $20 for .01 ounce of the latest gun lube every 6 months,( which is probably not needed), $1000 a year on the best bullets, but won't replace a $5 spring every 5 years.
Amazing.

+1

Amazing

orton89
09-10-2009, 11:01
nice, I was wondering if i should download my 4 Glock mags but now ill just leave them in the ready.

raw6464
11-19-2009, 23:51
Springs do weaken from being loaded.

It may still "function" like the reports of the 30 year old mags still working.
But it willl be be pushing up those rounds very slowly, and in a couple more trips to the range may fail.

For heavens sake, once every 5 years or so, spend $5 bucks and get a new spring.
You don't have to get an entire new mag or follower if you don't want, but
a cheap spring is easy to replace and good insurance.
People spend $20 for .01 ounce of the latest gun lube every 6 months,( which is probably not needed), $1000 a year on the best bullets, but won't replace a $5 spring every 5 years.
Amazing.

It's really the amount of compression/rebound cycles over time that kills a spring not a constant compression. A constant compression on a spring is no different then being contantly uncompressed.

Using the same mag over and over is what kills springs not time. Springs engineered and manufactured to be springs DON'T weaken from being loaded within their design specifications as explained in the orginal post on this thread.

So the issue at hand is if you have a mag that you keep loaded for long periods of time, do you need to replace them... just because?

PBR Sailor
11-20-2009, 05:21
Glock recommends changing out your springs every so often. Maybe that is for their benifit, however, I have worked on Glock mag's. for about 15 years and I can tell you for a fact that magazines that have been used have a shorter spring than new magazines. So to some extent they do take a set. I don't know if that has caused any malfunctions but for that reason I keep my extra magazines unloaded when in the gunsafe. The mag. in the gun I am currently using has a fully loaded mag. in it.


I have worked on a few Glocks in my time. Some of them failed to lock the slide open after the last shot. Some of them had nose down failure to feed problems leaving a few rounds jammed in the magazine below the feed lips. A new magazine or magazine spring cured the problem in every case.

Animalmother
01-01-2010, 11:29
Have read and heard a lot about this subject over the years and have come to conclude that leaving mags loaded is not a problem.

whistler52
01-01-2010, 17:15
It's really the amount of compression/rebound cycles over time that kills a spring not a constant compression. A constant compression on a spring is no different then being contantly uncompressed.

Using the same mag over and over is what kills springs not time. Springs engineered and manufactured to be springs DON'T weaken from being loaded within their design specifications as explained in the orginal post on this thread.

So the issue at hand is if you have a mag that you keep loaded for long periods of time, do you need to replace them... just because?

IMO the internet myth is that constant compression does not change a magazine spring. Go to the Wolff Gun Springs website and read FAQ #5.

But, you really don't need Wolff to tell you this. Take a used Glock mag and a new Glock mag and press down on the follower. With my used Glock mags I can feel less force pushing the follower up compared to a new Glock mag.

Now whether the spring force continues to reduce with age and use is debatable. But, to maintain that constant compression is the same as a totally uncompressed state is clearly wrong.

Ryobi
01-01-2010, 17:53
No reason to replace them more than every 5 years or so. They'll function indefinitely, but it's cheap to replace them every 5 years or so, even though it's not really necessary. And if you're looking for good info, the internet isn't necessarily your first choice, to go further, if you're looking for good info on the internet, getting advice on whether replacement is necessary from the website of a company that sells replacements is ludicrous.

den888
01-01-2010, 18:10
I never overfill mags, but keep them loaded in my G26 (it's my HD weapon).

SHOOTER629
01-02-2010, 21:40
Originally Posted by raw6464
It's really the amount of compression/rebound cycles over time that kills a spring not a constant compression. A constant compression on a spring is no different then being contantly uncompressed.


:agree:

Not to make a point but, I had this question hammered to me by students in the past. I called H&K, Glock and colt a few years back and they all stated the same thing-" Rebound Cycles causes the springs to weaken not constant compression. Also, just last year at a Sig Armorers class the question was asked again, Sig Trainer stated the same " Rebound cycles causes weakness in springs."

PATRICE
01-03-2010, 10:59
.....

JohnKSa
01-04-2010, 22:02
One faction...leaving the magazine loaded, causes spring wear. Another faction...cycling the magazine causes spring wear.It would be more accurate to summarize in the following manner.

One faction says that leaving the magazine fully loaded may cause the spring to weaken if the spring materials, spring design, spring manufacturing techniques are wanting or if the magazine design overcompresses the spring either unintentionally or intentionally as a design compromise to save space and weight while maximizing capacity at the expense of an inexpensive easily replaced part. Otherwise it won't weaken the springs.

Another faction says that cycling the magazine causes spring wear but only over a very long period of use unless the spring materials, spring design or spring manufacturing techniques are wanting.

oldschool1961
01-12-2010, 21:00
Extremely Well writen and interesting article. You have answered several things I have often thought about. Thanks......

cciman
02-07-2010, 20:06
This (below) is probably the best engineering / chemical/ physics answer, but it assumes that the material used is not deformed by that first initial full load, or x loads after that. Cycle of one over time.

Simple test is to have 50 new springs, measure them all before, and after a full mag load, then tabulate the lengths. Ideally, to do the same test over a few ranges in time: Immediately, 1 month, 6months, 1yr, 10 yr., etc. to see what effect time has on compression x length of spring.

All I know is I have personally squashed once and shortened many a pen spring in my time.



I decided to look at custom/high performance spring manufactures (not gun springs). I wanted to look for a generic, engineering answer and I found one.

In short, the engineering community agrees that springs do not have issues with storage in a none rest state as long as the are operated in a range of compression or elongation that does not deform the spring. Instead the consensus was that springs wear out through cycles. Thus, your mag springs get softer or wear out by loading/unloading the mags.

Storing any number of rounds in a mag (0-max) has no impact on spring performance or lifespan since you do not deform the spring (if you did it wouldn't work after the first load/unload cycle). However, changing the follower to cram another round or two into a mag might compress it enough to slightly deform it.

j-glock22
02-07-2010, 20:22
I've kept mags loaded for years and shot fine. I never have had to replace a mag spring yet to date... And I still have a few NFML's

Eagle22
03-08-2010, 09:54
Oh wait intruder / bad guy I have to load up my mags, before I can defend myself.

NOT.

PBR Sailor
03-08-2010, 16:29
I am not an engineer and can only speak from practical experience. When some of the people I train left their Glock magazines loaded for an extended period of time without "resting" the springs, the magazines failed to lock the slide open after the last shot. Most of them fed adequately, but did not lock the slide open. Some of the magazines caused feeding problems. After I replaced the magazine springs, they functioned properly in almost every case. The people who took care of their equipment and "rested" their magazine springs did not have any problems.

No math formula, no scientific studies, just my experience with maintaining over 70 Glock 22 pistols for ten years.

Glockdude1
03-08-2010, 18:50
I've kept mags loaded for years and shot fine. I never have had to replace a mag spring yet to date... And I still have a few NFML's

:agree:

I am still waiting for at least one of my mag springs to fail in some way.

JohnKSa
03-08-2010, 22:10
I am still waiting for at least one of my mag springs to fail in some way.Well, I suppose that's one approach.

OR, one could learn from the experiences of others......just my experience with maintaining over 70 Glock 22 pistols for ten years.Given that very few of us will ever get to "experiment" with that many pistols, when someone who has had such experience posts it publicly, it is a very valuable resource. ;)

Ceapea
04-15-2010, 14:14
Does anybody here remember when their mags were new? The 3 mags that I have for my 34 were pretty tough when the last few rounds were loaded in. Now, they just slip in. That has to say something for springs wearing out. I too have a 33 rd mag (2 actually for the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 that I am on a waiting list for) and after leaving 25 rounds in it for 3 months (my nightstand gun is the 34 with the 33 mag) the last few bullets barely pop out when I cycle them out. They probably will feed all of the time, but I don't want to find out that they don't at just the wrong time. Yes, I believe that springs loose their "spring"! There, I said it. But from what I've seen, it's true. Go ahead, try loading a brand new mag next to your old one, you will notice a difference. And if springs don't wear out, you wouldn't!

Ceapea

Ceapea
04-15-2010, 14:30
I am not an engineer and can only speak from practical experience. When some of the people I train left their Glock magazines loaded for an extended period of time without "resting" the springs, the magazines failed to lock the slide open after the last shot. Most of them fed adequately, but did not lock the slide open. Some of the magazines caused feeding problems. After I replaced the magazine springs, they functioned properly in almost every case. The people who took care of their equipment and "rested" their magazine springs did not have any problems.

No math formula, no scientific studies, just my experience with maintaining over 70 Glock 22 pistols for ten years.

I agree with this.
You know, all anybody has to do is compare a new mag to an old one to see the difference. It's as simple as that! If anyone actually performs that small,easy test, they could never say that springs don't wear out. I mean really! It is not magic, has nothing to do with anything but the fact that there is a difference. What would cause that difference?

Ceapea

stopatrain
04-16-2010, 07:29
My mags are loaded all of the time with no problems.

Thunderbolt56
06-02-2010, 17:13
New to Glock magazines, but my colt 1911 mags stayed filled for over 5 years (I had three) and stood up to almost weekly trips to the range and through quite a few informal local range competitions. Never had a failure.

I've already bought 3 extra mags for my Glock and plan on getting a couple more. I keep two loaded with SD ammo and the rest loaded with range ammo because I often go at the drop of a hat and it's nice to be able to run off 50 rounds without having to reload anything.

They're cheap enough that I'd just grab a new one (or two) every year and rotate the older ones out if I were worried about it, but I'm not there yet.

Just keep them clean and I wouldn't worry about it.

elLOCOmutha
06-03-2010, 04:46
My magazines are always loaded when stored/carried, never had a problem with any of them for any of my firearms.

Ringo S.
06-26-2010, 17:03
I keep Makarov in my car, never had any problems with magazine.

Mako72401
07-03-2010, 22:28
I tend to keep magazines loaded for the couple of pistols I carry the most. I have never had a problem with them feeding, but always am a little conscious/worried about the springs. Good original sticky article though. Makes me feel a little bit better.

Bill Lumberg
07-04-2010, 07:24
Something to be mindful of- all springs aren't the same. No, glock mags won't wear out sooner from being kept loaded, but some mfrs springs, and most pump shotgun magazine springs will fade if loaded to capacity, at least old mossberg and remingtons.

Glock23shooter
07-07-2010, 16:08
Quik question what is so special about the LE/GOVT glock mags? And the reg glock mags...

ChicagoZman
07-09-2010, 18:00
The LE/GOVT mags have LE/GOVT marked on them. Other than that, nothing.

Glockdude1
07-09-2010, 18:02
The LE/GOVT mags have LE/GOVT marked on them. Other than that, nothing.

And they were made from Sept 94 to Sept 2004. Thats it.

:cool:

ctfireman
07-10-2010, 22:17
Always kept all mine loaded & never a problem.

srggator
08-16-2010, 22:31
Great Article! Great Read!

Thanks!

Glock23shooter
09-24-2010, 00:00
The LE/GOVT mags have LE/GOVT marked on them. Other than that, nothing.

i was thinking they were made more special then the reg OEM mags, like a special spring. Figured since the're for LE/Govt agencies it would have more advantage....never mind then.

Bill Lumberg
09-24-2010, 11:50
No degradation of springs from leaving them loaded. Not with glock mags. The same isn't necessarily true of 1911 and M4 mags.

Raydon3000
09-24-2010, 12:01
All of my mags are fully loaded all of the time and I have never had a problem.

Jim


:agree:

TangoFoxtrot
12-26-2010, 15:27
:agree:
Ditto

RyanBDawg
12-29-2010, 08:20
I carry a spare mag with my G26 and usually just change both of them out over two weeks or so with 2 different mags... Never had a problem doing it this way...

Glockdude1
12-29-2010, 10:09
Ditto

:agree:

TooFly4Ya
03-08-2011, 00:27
Good post, I have always wondered if keeping my rounds in the mag would shorten mag life. Guess not. Thanks!

Glenriven
03-17-2011, 18:00
Good info, thanks.

Poopbear1
04-18-2011, 03:26
Cheap magazines usually have issues due to fit and finish, and sometimes underpowered springs, or springs with a low elastic limit. There was an issue with the DESIGN of the old M9 magazines (Checkmate mfg mags) where they would collect dirt/dust/mud/crud/blood and that would inhibit smooth cycling, and they have been issuing berretta factory magazines in combat zones since. The problem was 2 fold, the springs were not made from heat treated steel (causing a lower elastic limit) and there was no way out for build up. Berretta factory magazines have a small hole near the base that allows stuff to leave and circulate out, and the springs are made from heat treated steel.

That said, I have had all kinds of magazines fully loaded for years in some cases, and never had any fail, with regular maintenance/cleaning. I also dry lube my springs and the internal magazine surface, though this is just my version of overkill. I only ever had one weapon failure in combat and training, due to bullet setback (round hung up on feed ramp in M4). I have also fired a Beta C-mag without a hiccup that was fully loaded for 2 years, in full auto bursts.

jellis11
07-29-2011, 18:40
Great info.

g22gen4
07-30-2011, 00:51
awesome thread actually talked to several ppl about it and most said it was fine couple have said otherwise but always good to have something conclusive

Glock22r
08-07-2011, 10:07
This is one of those questions that comes up in every gun forum , can you keep the mags loaded , well here's one for you I loaded my Colt 1911 with a mag (several years ago ,I had to pack up and move ,when doing so ,I forgot about my 1911 /i knew I had it/just forgot about it for 3 years) , went outside and fired the whole mag not a problem and the spring is still in good condition!

I think part of the problem with this question is it doesnt really relate to the true problem , if you live on east/west coast you'll find the salt in the air can really cause problems for metal those springs will get eaten up and break , weather plays a major role if the springs are metal

upside-down-face
09-03-2011, 23:33
always loaded. always worked.

flyboyvet
11-24-2011, 02:00
I always keep my mags loaded, always!

FBV

Shooter08
01-19-2012, 16:24
I always keep mine fully loaded all the time G22 and G27 havent had a problem yet.

PBR Sailor
01-19-2012, 19:01
I had to repair two more Glock 22 service pistols since my last post. They both had feeding malfunctions. I replaced all of the magazine springs for the problem pistols and now they run fine. Those pistols were issued at the same time mine was issued. I unload my magazines on my days off and have not had a problem in over 5 years.

Draw your own conclusions.

SCSU74
01-24-2012, 19:15
Replace mag springs yearly, for $11 you can get 3 Wolff springs. No issues to speak of, but it cheap insurance.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

doglett386
02-29-2012, 20:12
"We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence."

Just how do you "reload it in a different sequence."? :dunno:

revthreep
02-29-2012, 22:47
I rotate my mags in my carry Glock 23 every couple of weeks. Hope this helps.

Glockdude1
03-01-2012, 04:48
"We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence."

Just how do you "reload it in a different sequence."? :dunno:

The round that is now on top, goes to the bottom of the magazine.

:cool:

M&P15T
03-26-2012, 11:17
I had to repair two more Glock 22 service pistols since my last post. They both had feeding malfunctions. I replaced all of the magazine springs for the problem pistols and now they run fine. Those pistols were issued at the same time mine was issued. I unload my magazines on my days off and have not had a problem in over 5 years.

Draw your own conclusions.


You're drawing the wrong conclusions. The magazines that needed replacement springs were used alot.....as in shot/un-loaded and then re-loaded. Your loading and un-loading of your magazines is only hurting them, not helping.

This is NOT about "draw your own conclusions", this topic needs facts. And the facts are that it's cycling of spirngs that weakens them, not leaving them compressed within their normal tolerances.

Bill Lumberg
03-26-2012, 15:26
This. You're drawing the wrong conclusions. The magazines that needed replacement springs were used alot.....as in shot/un-loaded and then re-loaded. Your loading and un-loading of your magazines is only hurting them, not helping.

This is NOT about "draw your own conclusions", this topic needs facts. And the facts are that it's cycling of spirngs that weakens them, not leaving them compressed within their normal tolerances.

Eins36:2
03-27-2012, 21:58
FWIW: G36. Two magazines fully loaded and sitting unused for over 4 years—one stock mag, one with a +1 plug and longer spring.
Both still worked fine at the range a few days ago.

However, with the stock mag, I occasionally get a FTF on the first hand-cycled round. Since it is the first, it is likely not the spring but must be my weak cycling hand. (I will post on these FTSs separately in a bit.)

randrew379
04-24-2012, 23:05
I have an experiment brewing.I have two mags that I've kept loaded for 10+years.
I'll let you know.

Orive 8
04-25-2012, 09:18
I'm one of those that rotates his carry mags. On the first of each month my carry mags & my wife's, get rotated.

Have been doing so since the mid-80s.

dajcarroll
05-18-2012, 07:08
FYI No such thing as a 33rd G17/G19 mag. There is, however, factory made 31rd +2 (7151) G18 mags.

The G18 33rd mag will fit and function properly in a G17/19... so yes there is such a thing as 33rd mags for G17/19. I have one.


Glock 19 - Gen 3

trey5955
05-25-2012, 17:50
Awesome article! I'll reference this if I ever get into a conversation about this topic.

victormikelima
06-02-2012, 14:11
Good info, thanks for sharing!

Bello
06-20-2012, 10:21
The G18 33rd mag will fit and function properly in a G17/19... so yes there is such a thing as 33rd mags for G17/19. I have one.


Glock 19 - Gen 3

No worries metroplex is being a smart ass and knows damn well they are factory 33 rounders

wildmanjeff
09-18-2012, 09:53
I agree-- magazine is not just something to hold ammo-it is part of a firearm. you can shoot and drop a mag without having to "train doing the same thing because of muscle memory" in an emergency without having to worry about dirt or whatever in your mag, damage, etc. (the whole uncertainty factor-how many times have we found something out after the fact that affects reliability etc.).

not to mention you have to shoot a few mags just to make sure they function reliably--granted it is practice, but that money could be invested in mags or other needed gear/guns --to be honest I reload and cannot afford to test all my mags (I have that many)

My dad used to tell me "take care of your tools they will take care of you" glock may be able to handle abuse, buried, thrown, dragged behind a truck in a rocky desert--but you really want to take a chance and have it click when you need it to go BANG?

Motorcyclist72
12-30-2012, 19:12
I once read that Glock suggested unloading them while you cleaned your gun.


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PBR Sailor
12-31-2012, 12:25
I once read that Glock suggested unloading them while you cleaned your gun.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

That is what I was told at the last Glock Armorer recertification course.

Stock Perfection
01-17-2013, 01:28
please delete this post

Stoy
03-22-2013, 07:58
Great Article.

Baumeister
03-22-2013, 11:17
Last weekend, I made it to the range for the first time in over 10 years and fired my AA serial # Glock 17 pencil barrel. A +2 magazine(19) had been fully loaded in 2001 and not touched since. (I had complex nerve injuries that severely impeded my ability to keep a steady hand, the guns have been in the safe since). I did rotate the rounds and refilled it before using it. I went through a few hundred rounds with no FTF, and my thumbs will testify to the spring strength. I was able to keep a fairly steady hand for about 90 minutes...glad to be back in the game!

Stock Perfection
04-04-2013, 01:16
[QUOTE=Baumeister;20112750]Last weekend, I made it to the range for the first time in over 10 years

Welcome back!!! Not exactly like a bicycle, but I bet it came back pretty quick?
Ammunition stored properly will last a very long time, as your story shows. Shoot all you can. And remember, if that pistol ever starts feeling a little heavy, todays .380s will serve you well in a self defense situation for a fraction of the weight.

Baumeister
04-04-2013, 09:06
And remember, if that pistol ever starts feeling a little heavy, todays .380s will serve you well in a self defense situation for a fraction of the weight.

Thanks! I am taking a second look at .380s now. I picked up a H&K USP Compact in .40 last month for a potential CCW. I used to be of the opinion that a 9mm was 'just enough gun' and .40S&W was probably ideal. But today's loads and designs really make the difference. My wife of 10 years has finally decided she'd like to learn to shoot, so smaller calibers(just picked up a single-action .22) have been on my mind.

Shooting the Glock came back to me quite easily,:supergrin: although not as on target as I'd wanted. Practice,practice, practice.
The H&K felt good in my hands but I'll need some work to be proficient with it.

JackMac
04-04-2013, 17:24
I have some that were loaded for over a decade, when used, they were totally functional. I did not intend to leave them loaded that long. Had them in a safe and had other stuff to do for 10 years. They worked just fine. 223 and 45 acp mags.

AXaxiom
04-17-2013, 19:50
My 19 Mag was kept loaded to the max for 13 years and still acts like a Glock. I had to buy a Sig to experience a FTE

Wildkow
12-10-2013, 09:41
I have probably some of the oldest Glock mags around from my 1989 Glock 19. One is a 17 round and the other is a 15 round that came with the original Pistol. The bodies are not reinforced, I think some people here call them non-droppable. At the time I was told that the Austrians could not understand why Americans wanted magazines that could freely drop out of their weapons. These magazines have rarely been unloaded and the 17 rounded stayed loaded and lost in the trunk of my car for around 8-10 years. When It was found I it took it out and shot it with no malfunctions. After a good cleaning it and the 15 round mag has stayed loaded every since and that was years ago. Eventually I sold that Glock 19, :faint: but I kept the mags and they are still functioning in my wife's Glock 26.

southern thunder
12-28-2013, 09:09
Good information.

BADOS
07-03-2014, 10:17
I have a ton of Glock mags in 9, 40 and 45's. All loaded to capacity with never a problem.

-CoolBreeze-
07-11-2014, 18:03
Excellent info! Thanks!

Actionmonkey
07-17-2014, 09:45
I have duty mags that I always keep loaded and shoot through old rounds and reload about every 3 months. Then I have range mags that are empty until I'm at the range. Both work fine and I've never had any issue with them.


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Railsplitter
07-18-2014, 02:24
Not affecting the function is one thing, the spring weakening is another, the spring can weaken but still be strong enough to push another round up the tube. I think this is what is happening I think the springs are made stronger than they need to be to allow for some weakening throughout there life. I can feel the difference between a new strong mag. and one well used. When I change mags. I load the magazines with the stiffest springs first in order to break them in. On the other hand if a magazine spring feels weaker than I am comfortable with I replace it with a new strong spring.

Johnson_2020
08-02-2014, 21:48
I have left many magazines fully loaded for months on end. Mainly my carry magazines. I try to rotate them every time I go to the range. Ive never experienced any issues with my mags after leaving rounds in them for long periods of time.

gbhulse
08-05-2014, 09:12
Excellent information, there should be a Column with just "
myths"

Billy10mm
08-05-2014, 21:00
I've had loaded mags for 16 years. I have one gun that I carry, the mag springs for that gun get changed out every 2 or 3 years. The rest get changed out when it feels like the bullets are easier to load (I'm shooting all of my guns quite regularly, so I'm aware of potential issues before they happen).