Leaving Magazines Loaded

[jonathon]

Original Question:
Is it okay to leave them loaded for say, a month or so? I have 2 31 round mags with +2's on them.... so 33 rounds total.

The answer:

Originally posted by SlammedDime
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369
American Handgunner: Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'


The shooting sports are full of some of the most knowledgeable and capable people you'll meet anywhere. I've been impressed consistently with the abilities of those I meet at the range to diagnose and fix a gun problem with as little as some spray lube and a cotton swab. However, sometimes a myth will creep into the folklore.

The magazine spring myth has been around for many years and is growing in popularity. It goes something like this: "You should unload your magazines when they're not in use or the spring will weaken causing failures to feed." This has gone as far as shooting competitors actually unloading their magazines between stages to extend the life of their springs. A variant of this myth is: "You should never load a magazine to capacity and should always leave it one round short." What if you need that round some day?

Recently, I read an article in a gun magazine suggesting you rotate your magazines so the ones not in use can "recover and rest." The same author uses the phrase "spring-set" to describe weakness of a spring because it was compressed for a long time. Hogwash. There's nothing further from the truth. Springs don't care how long they're compressed and don't require rest, recreation or even a vacation from time to time.

Shameful Spring Benders

To put this one to rest, you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years. American Handgunner recently ran a story about a magazine full of .45 ACP that had been sitting since WWII and it ran just fine on the first try. So there you go.

Now that the light of truth is leaking out, lets talk about what is causing failures to feed. The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. Both of these could cause feed failures. Shame on you if you're a spring bender.

Carlton Nether, Customer Service for Beretta USA, tells us keeping a pistol magazine loaded for an extended period doesn't cause magazine spring failure, however, failures to feed can result. He says, "The ammo will 'roll' in the magazine. If the mags are kept loaded and moved around a lot -- say on a cop's belt -- the rolling action can, over time, cause creases in the cases. These creases can cause malfunctions. Also the top bullet will roll against the magazine lips and creasing can occur there as well. Just check old ammo that's been bouncing around in a magazine for a long time.

We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence. This movement will allow the bullets to be in different parts of the magazine and help eliminate creasing.

At STI, Dave Skinner, President and CEO says, "Personally, I rotate my 'under the bed' and 'under the seat' mags about every six months. I always empty them the 'fun' way and have never had a failure." Given what we learned above, this sounds like a good idea. Smith and Wesson customer service also says magazines can stay loaded indefinitely without hurting the spring.

As we add force onto a spring, it will displace the same amount for each amount of force we add. This is true until the spring passes a certain point called the elastic limit. Robert Hooke discovered this theory back in 1660. Hooke's Law states: "If the applied forces on a body are not too large, the deformations resulting are directly proportional to the forces producing them." Which means, in actual human being language, if we load a spring past its elastic limit, it permanently deforms. It still provides a force against the load but the force is no longer proportional. If this happens, when we unload the spring (such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded) the spring never returns to a state where it can provide the same load for the same amount of displacement.

Trust Us

When a magazine manufacturer designs a spring, they plan for a preload. The spring is already compressed some in the magazine. On the curve below, this would be Point A. The spring compression would be designed to be below the Elastic Limit. When fully compressed, the spring would be at Point B. If the spring is ever compressed past the elastic limit, say to Point C, it won't ever behave the same. Like a recalcitrant lazy Uncle, it will have a lower spring force for each amount of displacement. On the drawing, the spring would now cycle between points D and E. This means that -- particularly with the last bullet or two -- the force pushing the bullet up would be less and lo-and-behold, a mis-feed might occur.

When somebody stretches your spring to "fix" your magazine, they are trying to get you back on the original curve. They may get pretty close, however, it's unlikely the spring will ever perform to its original design. The elastic limit is now shifted lower and your magazine spring may fail to perform fairly quickly.

Having said all this, if you have a magazine that isn't feeding right, what should you do? First, disassemble the magazine and clean it thoroughly. Then try it with new, factory ammunition in a freshly cleaned gun. This takes away some of the possible causes. If you are still having feed problems, send it back. Even the low cost, after-market magazine manufacturers will fix the problem at no cost to you other than shipping. If it's a magazine from the gun's manufacturer, let them troubleshoot and repair the problem. Otherwise, toss the mag. It's not worth risking your life to save a few bucks. And that's the truth.

RELATED ARTICLE: Definitions

Creep: The flow or plastic deformation of metals held for long periods of time at stresses lower than the normal yield strength.

Elastic Limit: The maximum stress that material will stand before permanent deformation occurs.

Yield Strength: The stress at which the metal changes from elastic to plastic in behavior, i.e., takes a permanent set.

Permanent Set: Non-elastic or plastic, deformation of metal under stress, after passing the elastic limit.

Magazine Recommendations

* Clean your magazines when they get gritty. Apply oil then remove all excess. Oil attracts dirt that may cause malfunction.

* If you find rust on the spring, this is culprit. Rust changes the thickness of the metal and reduces the force applied to the follower. Cleaning off the rust may help. For a gun you depend on, replace the spring. All the major brands and most of the smaller ones have replacement mag springs available or try Wolff Springs.

* If you keep a magazine loaded for long periods, rotate the rounds every few months. If you carry a pistol on the job or in your car, cycle the ammo frequently. These actions prevent creases from forming which may cause a misfeed.

* If you experience feed problems, first clean your magazines and weapon. Fire a couple magazines of new factory ammo to see if this resolves the problem. If not send the magazine back to the manufacturer -- or toss it.

Basically, from what I gather.. its harder on the bullets in the mag than it is on the mag to keep it loaded. Thanks guys!

;f

[glockin101]

Loaded mine aver 3 years ago and they still feed fine.

[allglock]

Originally posted by glockin101
Loaded mine aver 3 years ago and they still feed fine.

+1;)

[bruce21b]

not a 33 rounder but I kept a couple G17 mags loaded for four years and just shot them a week ago without a hiccup...

[j6721]

All of my mags are fully loaded all of the time and I have never had a problem.

Jim

[SlammedDime]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369
American Handgunner: Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'

[C9X19]

Originally posted by SlammedDime
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369
American Handgunner: Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'

Good article!

[jonathon]

I was just worried 'cause of how long the spring is, and the fact I'm using the +2's for +2.

[jonathon]

That article makes sense.

Thanks!

[Lumpy_3]

Originally posted by G17raider
Good article!
.

[RoninP80]

The mags I keep full/ready are never rotated (Glk & AR). The only time they would require attention is if; the mag/ammo became contaminated and/or damaged, or if they needed to be refilled.

what wears out a spring is flexing, not setting static

[jonathon]

How'd this get stickied?! ;P

[PennGlock]

Stickied because the question comes up here all the time, and the answers, even from otherwise knowledgable people, are often wrong.

Magazines may be kept loaded to their full capacity without any harm being done.

There is no need to take the last round out when storing them!

[Razoreye]

Since this is stickied then I'll copy + paste the article here for future reference should the aformentioned site remove it. Good read, I was always curious as well.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic..._27/ai_99130369

Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'
American Handgunner, May-June, 2003 by John S. Layman

Save a personal copy of this article and quickly find it again with Furl.net. It's free! Save it.
The shooting sports are full of some of the most knowledgeable and capable people you'll meet anywhere. I've been impressed consistently with the abilities of those I meet at the range to diagnose and fix a gun problem with as little as some spray lube and a cotton swab. However, sometimes a myth will creep into the folklore.

The magazine spring myth has been around for many years and is growing in popularity. It goes something like this: "You should unload your magazines when they're not in use or the spring will weaken causing failures to feed." This has gone as far as shooting competitors actually unloading their magazines between stages to extend the life of their springs. A variant of this myth is: "You should never load a magazine to capacity and should always leave it one round short." What if you need that round some day?

Recently, I read an article in a gun magazine suggesting you rotate your magazines so the ones not in use can "recover and rest." The same author uses the phrase "spring-set" to describe weakness of a spring because it was compressed for a long time. Hogwash. There's nothing further from the truth. Springs don't care how long they're compressed and don't require rest, recreation or even a vacation from time to time.

Shameful Spring Benders

Continue article
Advertisement


To put this one to rest, you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years. American Handgunner recently ran a story about a magazine full of .45 ACP that had been sitting since WWII and it ran just fine on the first try. So there you go.

Now that the light of truth is leaking out, lets talk about what is causing failures to feed. The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. Both of these could cause feed failures. Shame on you if you're a spring bender.

Carlton Nether, Customer Service for Beretta USA, tells us keeping a pistol magazine loaded for an extended period doesn't cause magazine spring failure, however, failures to feed can result. He says, "The ammo will 'roll' in the magazine. If the mags are kept loaded and moved around a lot -- say on a cop's belt -- the rolling action can, over time, cause creases in the cases. These creases can cause malfunctions. Also the top bullet will roll against the magazine lips and creasing can occur there as well. Just check old ammo that's been bouncing around in a magazine for a long time.

We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence. This movement will allow the bullets to be in different parts of the magazine and help eliminate creasing.

At STI, Dave Skinner, President and CEO says, "Personally, I rotate my 'under the bed' and 'under the seat' mags about every six months. I always empty them the 'fun' way and have never had a failure." Given what we learned above, this sounds like a good idea. Smith and Wesson customer service also says magazines can stay loaded indefinitely without hurting the spring.

As we add force onto a spring, it will displace the same amount for each amount of force we add. This is true until the spring passes a certain point called the elastic limit. Robert Hooke discovered this theory back in 1660. Hooke's Law states: "If the applied forces on a body are not too large, the deformations resulting are directly proportional to the forces producing them." Which means, in actual human being language, if we load a spring past its elastic limit, it permanently deforms. It still provides a force against the load but the force is no longer proportional. If this happens, when we unload the spring (such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded) the spring never returns to a state where it can provide the same load for the same amount of displacement.

Trust Us

When a magazine manufacturer designs a spring, they plan for a preload. The spring is already compressed some in the magazine. On the curve below, this would be Point A. The spring compression would be designed to be below the Elastic Limit. When fully compressed, the spring would be at Point B. If the spring is ever compressed past the elastic limit, say to Point C, it won't ever behave the same. Like a recalcitrant lazy Uncle, it will have a lower spring force for each amount of displacement. On the drawing, the spring would now cycle between points D and E. This means that -- particularly with the last bullet or two -- the force pushing the bullet up would be less and lo-and-behold, a mis-feed might occur.

When somebody stretches your spring to "fix" your magazine, they are trying to get you back on the original curve. They may get pretty close, however, it's unlikely the spring will ever perform to its original design. The elastic limit is now shifted lower and your magazine spring may fail to perform fairly quickly.

Having said all this, if you have a magazine that isn't feeding right, what should you do? First, disassemble the magazine and clean it thoroughly. Then try it with new, factory ammunition in a freshly cleaned gun. This takes away some of the possible causes. If you are still having feed problems, send it back. Even the low cost, after-market magazine manufacturers will fix the problem at no cost to you other than shipping. If it's a magazine from the gun's manufacturer, let them troubleshoot and repair the problem. Otherwise, toss the mag. It's not worth risking your life to save a few bucks. And that's the truth.

RELATED ARTICLE: Definitions

Creep: The flow or plastic deformation of metals held for long periods of time at stresses lower than the normal yield strength.

Elastic Limit: The maximum stress that material will stand before permanent deformation occurs.

Yield Strength: The stress at which the metal changes from elastic to plastic in behavior, i.e., takes a permanent set.

Permanent Set: Non-elastic or plastic, deformation of metal under stress, after passing the elastic limit.

Magazine Recommendations

* Clean your magazines when they get gritty. Apply oil then remove all excess. Oil attracts dirt that may cause malfunction.

* If you find rust on the spring, this is culprit. Rust changes the thickness of the metal and reduces the force applied to the follower. Cleaning off the rust may help. For a gun you depend on, replace the spring. All the major brands and most of the smaller ones have replacement mag springs available or try Wolff Springs.

* If you keep a magazine loaded for long periods, rotate the rounds every few months. If you carry a pistol on the job or in your car, cycle the ammo frequently. These actions prevent creases from forming which may cause a misfeed.

* If you experience feed problems, first clean your magazines and weapon. Fire a couple magazines of new factory ammo to see if this resolves the problem. If not send the magazine back to the manufacturer -- or toss it.

COPYRIGHT 2003 Publishers' Development Corporation
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group

[thooks]

Originally posted by jonathon
How'd this get stickied?! ;P

Agreed. How many people have a G18?

Maybe the title should be changed to "Leaving 33 round magazines Loaded"


No telling how many folks that would benefit from this thread that skip over it (like I did) just because it says "G18".


Just a thought...

[SlammedDime]

Originally posted by thooks
Maybe the title should be changed to "Leaving magazines Loaded" Fixed it for ya... :)

[metroplex]

Originally posted by thooks
Agreed. How many people have a G18?

Maybe the title should be changed to "Leaving 33 round magazines Loaded"


No telling how many folks that would benefit from this thread that skip over it (like I did) just because it says "G18".


Just a thought...

FYI No such thing as a 33rd G17/G19 mag. There is, however, factory made 31rd +2 (7151) G18 mags.

[jonathon]

I'm going to fix up the first post.. and PM eric about a title change then :)

[Razoreye]

I quoted it first!! ;f

[jonathon]

^<wg

[Ken Rainey]

Said about loading a spring past it's elastic limit: quote "(such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded)" end quote. How's that done? Unless you modify the magazine yourself ?? Or - The company does it for you - such as 8rds in a magazine designed for 7 rds! ???


Magazine springs don't wear out from being loaded to capacity - true, if you only load them once (or a very few times) and leave them like that...

Every spring wears out (looses energy) with use. Thus, the more it's used the sooner it will wear out and cause malfunctions. Springs can't rest and recover their expended energy and stretching them is even worse. A field expedient method of temporarily reviving the spring in some magazines is to get some pliers and bend the bottom leg of the spring down a tad. The manufacturer may replace your springs for free or they may not. I've been told by some that it's normal wear and they charge you for them and some will smile and give you new springs or even new magazines.

Keeping a new mag fully loaded and only using it for defense and changing the rds out twice a year should let it last a very, very long time but a prudent person would still replace them with some regularity.

Keeping a magazine fully loaded and using it for practice two to four times a month (or more) with several loading/firing cycles will wear it out sooner and problems will arise - but at what moment? During practice or when it's a life threatening situation?

Springs are manufactured items and every spring will not have the same stored energy or longevity, they'll be close if manufacturing processes were kept proper but therein lies the "murphy" factor - and therefore if we treat every spring as if it may be the one that come out of a batch that didn't quite get the proper process, then maybe we'll not have to find out at a critical moment that it's just to weak to feed our defense ammo.

So, for me, never loading a defensive magazine to capacity gives me an edge in reliable feeding...by less stress on the spring and also by less pressure on the slide the bullets are pushing against during the firing cycle - every little bit helps.

I have magazines for defensive use and magazines for practice for each pistol. The defensive magazines are never fully loaded and are only used when replacing the defensive ammo, inspected, cleaned, and reloaded. The practice mags are used just for practice and are usually never fully loaded at that time.

Remember the article from Chuck Taylor that described his experience with his Glock 17? In it he tells of how the first two sets of magazines would stop locking the slide back on empty (sign of a weak spring) after so much use (around 33,000 rds I think) and then he started downloading the new magazines by two rds and the problem went away...hmmmmm.


edited to say that I looked it up and the 33,000 rds were the total thru the pistol where he had the first ftf. The mag failures came with the first set around 5,000 rds and on the second set with an additional 6,000 rds = 11,000 total....then he started downloading them.

[Jim]

My impression is that Glock really "pushed the envelope" when they designed the mags and springs. With less than a thousand rounds through the gun and very little loading/unloading of the mags, I had 2 out of 3 mags springs go bad in a second gen G19. One would produce occasional failures to feed (usually not on the last round), the other would fail to lock the slide back when empty. New springs fixed 'em both.

Conversely, I had 12 mags for a Browning Hi Power that lasted over 10 years of use with no problems. Some of them were kept fully loaded, some of them were loaded/unloaded every month or two, and the practice mags were often kept fully loaded AND used a lot. After ten years I compared the springs- all the same length. BTW, I would top off the mag after loading one round into the chamber; the springs were as fully comprssed as you could get.

Now that I carry a new G19, I load the mags to 15 but don't top off after chambering a round. The slide pushes the top cartridge down enough that 15 rds in a mag that is seated in the gun, is about like loading 15 3/4 rounds.

Of course some guys load their glock mags to capacity and then top after chambering a round, and they have no problems. I think that will work if your springs are perfect, anything slightly off-spec will produce problems sooner than in some other guns.

[Scouse]

Remember the article from Chuck Taylor that described his experience with his Glock 17? In it he tells of how the first two sets of magazines would stop locking the slide back on empty (sign of a weak spring) after so much use (around 33,000 rds I think) and then he started downloading the new magazines by two rds and the problem went away...hmmmmm.

An other part that wears is the Slide lock lever! Slide release on any other pistol! It is only a wee piece of steel, and they do wear, the locking corner gets a little rounded.

All things mechanical wear, Glock keeps improving the magazines! I keep replacing them! Don’t think I will ever have any wear factors on my magazines.

[allglock]

Originally posted by Jim
My impression is that Glock really "pushed the envelope" when they designed the mags and springs. With less than a thousand rounds through the gun and very little loading/unloading of the mags, I had 2 out of 3 mags springs go bad in a second gen G19. One would produce occasional failures to feed (usually not on the last round), the other would fail to lock the slide back when empty. New springs fixed 'em both.

Conversely, I had 12 mags for a Browning Hi Power that lasted over 10 years of use with no problems. Some of them were kept fully loaded, some of them were loaded/unloaded every month or two, and the practice mags were often kept fully loaded AND used a lot. After ten years I compared the springs- all the same length. BTW, I would top off the mag after loading one round into the chamber; the springs were as fully comprssed as you could get.

Now that I carry a new G19, I load the mags to 15 but don't top off after chambering a round. The slide pushes the top cartridge down enough that 15 rds in a mag that is seated in the gun, is about like loading 15 3/4 rounds.

Of course some guys load their glock mags to capacity and then top after chambering a round, and they have no problems. I think that will work if your springs are perfect, anything slightly off-spec will produce problems sooner than in some other guns.

I always download by one round on my Glocks.
Call me silly!;f

[SIGShooter]

extremely interesting read!!! I quess I was one of those guys who would try to reform the springs by stretching them a little. I now know why they were being worn before their time. I'll stop doing that and replace the springs with new ones and start from a clean slate. Thanks for that info guys!!!

[dapolice1]

Originally posted by Jim
the other would fail to lock the slide back when empty. New springs fixed 'em both.


Logic would say your problem was springs, but I had a fellow officer with same issues in a G22. It was also FTF. He tried everything and finaly sent it to glock. They replaced his followers with the new design, and viola. Problem fixed. Would leave me to believe that SOME of the earlier mag issues were actually follower problems. Springs do wear out like everthing else.

I choose to rotate them on my duty weapon every month or so, just for peace of mind. I also use range mags for the range and duty mags for duty. The range mags are dropped onto the concrete during relods and thus MIGHT effect the mag bodies and spring. I do not take a chance. My duty mags will only hit the ground once!!!

[George in TX]

FWIW, I have always kept all my Glock magazines fully loaded without any problems whatsoever! That includes all sizes of magazines of genuine Glock manufacture. :soap:

[bluemeanie]

Hmmm. How will I allocate that extra time I gain from not rotating mags? If I'd paid attention to anything other than "conventional wisdom" I'd have noted a long time ago that it was my IDPA mags that weakened. The ones that were constantly loaded and then unloaded. The fun way.

[Bikewer]

Hehe- first post, may as well jump in....

I recall reading one or other of the gun magazines years ago where they had found some 1911 magazines that had been left loaded since WWII... Worked perfectly.

[IndyTx]

they had found some 1911 magazines that had been left loaded since WWII... Worked perfectly. [/B]

Reminds me of the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. You just know the government has a giant building filled with WWII 1911's loaded and ready to go :)

[Scouse]

When I lived in the UK, in the early sixties, I got a call from the local Police Station, "Mike can you come and look at this gun this Lady handed in" off I went, big grease proof brown paper bag, in it a WW11 Sten Gun, bolt forward, magazine snapped in.
(English Police and guns!!!?)

An other mag; in the bag also, loaded, took mag; off the gun, loaded! Cycled the bolt, perfect, unscrewed the barrel, pulled it through with a piece of string, and a bit of cloth, like new.

Off to the local tip, ear plugs in, a few bursts later, locked back, every round fired, picked up 60 shell caseings.The magazines would have been loaded 20 or so years then.

When the old guy passed away, the Sten was under the bed, ready to go! Make my day would have taken on a whole new meaning to a burglar!

[Know Nothing]

First, it's funny about the old guy and the Sten.

Second, it's funny how the "download your magazine, rotate your ammo" myth lives on, even in this post! Reasons:
* One guy had malfunctions after 33,000 rounds
* Glock magazines are (supposedly) poorly designed
* Springs "lose energy" (whatever that means)
* It makes me feel better
* It's what I've always done, and I don't want to change

Let's set the record straight, once and for all. The only valid reasons to download/rotate your magazine/ammo:
* Poorly designed magazines
* Creasing of ammo carried on active duty
* It makes you feel better
* You don't want to change your stubborn ways

The shooting community was bamboozled by a bunch of writers into thinking a spring could "take set," whatever that means. Let's allow this myth to die in peace.

[7.62FMJ]

I remember about seven years ago some big importer/exporter outfit had WWII G.I. 1911 mags that were fully loaded and had been sitting in crates since the war. They were selling cheap but I know two people that bought some and they ran fine even after that many years. Basically they were selling surplus ball but the magazines were just thrown in to boot.

[Glockdude1]

There is nothing wrong with leaving mags fully loaded. Springs only develop problems by "cycling", (lots of use) someone trying to cram 17rds in a 15rd mag for example. If leaving mas loaded was a real problem, it would be widespread thru every L/E agency and in every part of the military. This is not the case.

;N

[Makoman]

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HurtSprings.htm

[Glockdude1]

Borrowed from the Wolf Web site:

"Wolff Gun Springs (www.gunsprings.com) advises that so long as the spring is not compressed more than it's designed for, being compressed to that degree does not weaken it. He goes on to say that what "wears them out" is being used, i.e., compressed and then not compressed as would be the case in a pistol's mainspring when the gun is being fired and in a magazine as it's loaded and then emptied. In over 30 years of shooting Hi Powers, I have not had to replace the original mainspring in any of my Hi Powers."

;N

[oldcrow]

[i]

The shooting community was bamboozled by a bunch of writers into thinking a spring could "take set," whatever that means. Let's allow this myth to die in peace. [/B]
Methinks the gun writers are merely the tip of the conspiracy iceberg here. They are merely shills for the evil corporate magazine-industrial complex. Yeah, that's the ticket. Follow the moolah - who benefits most from scaring us all into tossing our mags and buying new ones?

Huh? Anybody?

"The opinions expressed are my own, and do not reflect the views of any rational human being" ;b

[oct_97]

I took my old second generation Glock 19 (And original magazines), with 30K plus rounds through it/them, to a local Glock Gunsmith Guru and told him to inspect and replace as necessary. When I went back he had inspected, there was nothing to replace. When I asked about springs he told me some just seem to go on forever while others require replacement from time to time, go figure?

John

[Glockdude1]

Originally posted by oldcrow
Methinks the gun writers are merely the tip of the conspiracy iceberg here. They are merely shills for the evil corporate magazine-industrial complex. Yeah, that's the ticket. Follow the moolah - who benefits most from scaring us all into tossing our mags and buying new ones?

Huh? Anybody?

"The opinions expressed are my own, and do not reflect the views of any rational human being" ;b

If anyone is "tossing out" old mags, I will pick them up!!!

;N

[klmmicro]

Back in my Mil-Spec of the mid 80's, we came across some 1911 mags that were loaded and sealed in a tin. The date on the tin was 1965 (the year the ship I served on was officially released to duty). We opened the tin and took the mags out to the flightdeck with a couple of our .45's. Not a single jam in over 500 rounds. Those magazines are probably still feeding reliably today.

In 20 years of loaded condition there was no discernable problem with any of the magazines that were in that case. "Spring Set" is a myth best left in the dust.

[chulo_glock]

what wears a spring down is constantly loading it and unloading it(basic physics of a spring...go figure) so it doesnt matter if the spring is stored loaded or unloaded, either will not wear down the spring

[Glockdude1]

;a

[omnivore75]

Jeff Cooper (who may be unstable at this point hehe) reported in his back page Guns N Ammo article a few months back about sub gun I believe it was that had been stored since WW2 with the mags fully loaded and it fired just fine. I read that myself. He went on to say something about the extent to which our world relies on springs and how far they had come.

[Moodle]

When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

Moodle

[omnivore75]

Originally posted by Moodle
When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

Moodle I'm not sure if I buy that one. I have no doubt thats what you were told but it is hard to believe. The pressure of the spring is fine for a while but over time it will slowly deform the ammo?? Hard to swallow, but then again anything is possible. Myself, I prefer to always keep my mags loaded and ready and keep a couple of new mags laid back in case there is a problem but in all my years of shooting/collecting firearms I have never had a problem with keeping my mags loaded.

[Glockdude1]

Originally posted by Moodle
When our LE people transitioned over to Glock, they were told that they should remove their ammunition every month and rteload it. Not because of magazine problems but becaiuse the spring pressure would deform the ammunition causinfg failure to feed.

Moodle

If the ammo is "deforming" in the mag, it is time to stop buying the "cheap" ammo!! LOL

;N

[racine]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. My question now is then why do factory ParaOrdnance 45, factory HK USP 45, Glock 22 mag springs shorten when kept loaded for 6 months or more? Most of my CCW mags are usually the pick of the litter, fired a few times to test their reliability with factory ball and defense ammo, cleaned then relegated to CCW or home defense duty. But I've noticed that in the process of bi-annually cycling them into an IDPA/USPSA match I invariably end up with cycling problems, specifically stove pipes or FTF the last 1 or 2 rounds. Examining the mags yields springs a full inch shorter than new factory or wolff springs. You will notice that these are all double stack mags in question. On the other hand I never saw these with my single stack mags whatsoever?! I saved these deformed and shortened springs for a few years until I decided I really had no use for them save being a reminder. So now I read your post and references to the Am.HG mag and now I'm perplexed. I happen upon a posting from an engineer on the 1911 forums who comments;

"...My other post follows:

I am a Mechanical Engineer. I cringe every time Am Handgunner treads into the field of engineering. Journalists who don't know what they are talking about should consult someone who has actual technical training.

Creep does happen in ferritic materials.

Plastic deformation does happen in over compressed or over extended springs. The question is one of proper spring design and choice of the correct metallurgy. All of the generalizations in the Am Handgunner article have extremely common exceptions. All of those generalizations reflect "invincible ignorance" on the part of the writer.

Whenever I read this nonsense in Am Handgunner I think I should write a letter. Then I think why waste my time?

Ever wonder why your recoil spring gets shorter with use? It is because the spring design is such that whatever steel Wolff uses creeps or even yields under the cyclic compression loading. The metal MUST move for the spring to become shorter at rest. There's no other way it can happen. BTW that's ferritic material.

Ever wonder why this happens faster with a Wolff spring than it does with an IMSI spring? Because IMSI (or Nowlin) uses Cr-Si alloyed steel, which (as heat treated) has a higher yield strength than the Wolff metallurgy, so the Yield Strength of the material is much higher, and the creep process is much slower.

This is not a subject for simpletons looking for a one size fits all answer. In some mags the spring may be very lightly loaded, or overengineered. In others, the opposite may be the case. The ultimate answer is tied up in the interplay of spring loading and design criteria, combined with choice of metallurgy.

You would have to understand the design criteria for the mag (some are really hard on the spring because of how many rounds they're trying to jam in there with a really short follower). You will have to understand the metallurgy of the string. Was it heat treated right? How do you know? If strain hardened, did the spring maker draw the material right? How do you know? Do you even know that the material is certified at the claimed composition?

Notice how one poster said some springs have done fine, and others failed quickly? Probably a QC problem with spring metallurgy or heat treat. Inconsistent from batch to batch.

This is why aerospace and military manufacturers require "certifications" for metallurgy and heat treat. The answer changes completely based on little details.

That AH blurb was typical of the type of uninformed drivel that they've been printing lately. Ever since they went to the format that has several blurbs on a page, their reporting has gotten less and less in-depth, and more and more generalized. And in technical subjects, generalizations are for fools. It is a technical subject BECAUSE THE LITTLE THINGS MAKE A DIFFERENCE. But these guys are too ignorant to even know what the little things are. That stupid writer may get someone killed.

In the meantime I'll be sure there are fresh springs in my carry mags.

BTW the ultimate strength of metal in a spring is irrelevant. Ultimate strength is the loading where the metal comes apart. In a spring design you don't want to go over the yield strength (another concept that Am Handgunner got garbled up). The definition of yield strength is a bit complicated, but suffice it to say that it is the point where the metal begins to plastically deform. "Plastically deform" is engineer-talk for "bend"

For those interested in actual knowledge on the subject, find a copy of "Mechanical Engineering Design" by Shigley and Mitchell. In my 4th ed (1983), Chapter 10 is devoted to spring design. Chapter 4 includes a section on Creep, and section 4-5 details creep effects of time and temperature on ferritic materials.

Here's an idea. How about we take all of our questionable springs and send them to that writer so he can install them in his carry gun's mags? Maybe we should make the offer!.."


Though I profess NOT to be an engineer, I do come from a scientific background and I am more inclined to depend on quantitative data and experience together rather than unsubstantiated claims, assumptions and experience alone.
Racine

[racine]

I thought I'd add a comment from Marc Cosat at ISMI on gun springs.

"...ISMI premium springs are manufactured exclusively with certified aerospace specification alloys; stainless or chrome silicon. Then our springs are heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after winding to enhance performance and durability. Our springs utilize the same design and manufacturing technology as used in IndyCar and Formula One racing. In a typical 500 mile race, a valve spring in an IndyCar will go through more than 2,500,000 compression cycles. Consideration of factors such as modulus, wire diameter, mean diameter, active coils, total deflection, spring relaxation, maximum service temperature, and operating environment; results in you having modern spring technology available for your pistol.

Because of the properties of music wire; it cannot be heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after the spring is wound. Additionally, music wire lacks consistency from bulk lot to bulk lot. This results in inconsistent performance from spring to spring. This is the same technology that was in use 90 years ago when John Browning designed the 1911 style pistol.

We believe that springs shouldn’t be an ongoing worry or concern for the shooter. Springs should be an annual routine maintenance item. Change them once a year; go shoot and have fun..."

[racine]

This from Wolff's website. Seems to contradict some observations some "experts" assert...

"...4. How often should I change my springs?

Wolff Gunsprings are made with the highest grade materials and workmanship. Most Wolff [recoil] springs will remain stable for many thousands of rounds. The performance of your gun is the best indicator of when a spring needs to be replaced. Factors such as increasing ejection distance, improper ejection and/or breaching, lighter hammer indents on primers, misfires, poor cartridge feeding from magazines, frequent jams, stove pipes and other malfunctions are all possible indications of fatigued springs or improper springs. Springs that are subject to higher stress applications such as magazine springs, striker springs and recoil springs will require more frequent replacement than other less stressed springs. Most Wolff recoil springs should be capable of 3000-5000 rounds minimum before changing is required. Some recoil springs in compact pistols, especially where dual springs are replaced by a single spring may require changing after 750 - 1500 rounds. Changes in your firearm's performance are one of the best indicators that a change is needed.




5. Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? How often should I change magazine springs?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as law enforcement applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs which are loaded up only when shooting. Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. Older designs where maximum capacity was not the goal such as the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was a lot of room for a lot of spring which reduced the overall stress on the spring. In recent hi-capacity magazines, the magazines were designed to hold more rounds with less spring material. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but is not always practical. In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular shooting will verify reliability and regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs..."

I personally have had to replace several Wolff springs. I admit most of my guns are hicap double stacks from 10-20 rounds in 40-45.

[Scouse]

Once at the Glock factory (1985) in Austria, I was told that Glock did not manufacture their springs, but purchased from a sub contractor? Now make their own?

For years on the wall of my reloading cubby hole I kept a new G17 mag; spring that was next to one that was an inch shorter, an old one, I routinely changed springs when they lost that inch, but never remember a problem with this inch down. Did the same with firing pin springs.

[jobob]

I like to carry my reload magazines one round down, not to relieve pressure on the spring, but to make reloading easier. More than once I've failed to fully seat the magazine on a reload. That one round makes quite a distance in the force needed to seat the mag.

[a1911owner]

Originally posted by racine
I thought I'd add a comment from Marc Cosat at ISMI on gun springs.

"...ISMI premium springs are manufactured exclusively with certified aerospace specification alloys; stainless or chrome silicon. Then our springs are heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after winding to enhance performance and durability. Our springs utilize the same design and manufacturing technology as used in IndyCar and Formula One racing. In a typical 500 mile race, a valve spring in an IndyCar will go through more than 2,500,000 compression cycles. Consideration of factors such as modulus, wire diameter, mean diameter, active coils, total deflection, spring relaxation, maximum service temperature, and operating environment; results in you having modern spring technology available for your pistol.

Because of the properties of music wire; it cannot be heat treated, shot peened and stress relieved after the spring is wound. Additionally, music wire lacks consistency from bulk lot to bulk lot. This results in inconsistent performance from spring to spring. This is the same technology that was in use 90 years ago when John Browning designed the 1911 style pistol.

We believe that springs shouldn’t be an ongoing worry or concern for the shooter. Springs should be an annual routine maintenance item. Change them once a year; go shoot and have fun..."

He is selling a product, and wants to make money. You can't make money if people don't buy your product.

Spring set under load is a myth. If it were true, you would have to replace the springs in your car every few thousand miles, but you don't.

The reason that mag springs wear out is the same reason that firing pin springs, and recoil springs have to be replaced. from compression and decompression. But the recoil spring and firing pin springs are under a whole different set of stresses than a mag spring.

If this guy believes this, I guess that he changes his car's springs ever time he rotates his tires.

[racine]

"...He is selling a product, and wants to make money. You can't make money if people don't buy your product.

Spring set under load is a myth. If it were true, you would have to replace the springs in your car every few thousand miles, but you don't..."

Your point is well taken. But you still have to consider the concept of quality control. If I don't have to replace my ISMI springs but every 2-3 yrs vs every year with the Wolff then I have saved some money and myself frustration. I would not knock it unless you've tried it. To suggest generalities about spring performance without taking into consideration ALL THE MANY variables involved is reckless and foolhardy. I don't think you can reasonably compare gun springs to automobile (let alone performance cars)springs. Just a different animal altogether.

[a1911owner]

Originally posted by racine
Your point is well taken. But you still have to consider the concept of quality control. If I don't have to replace my ISMI springs but every 2-3 yrs vs every year with the Wolff then I have saved some money and myself frustration. I would not knock it unless you've tried it. To suggest generalities about spring performance without taking into consideration ALL THE MANY variables involved is reckless and foolhardy. I don't think you can reasonably compare gun springs to automobile (let alone performance cars)springs. Just a different animal altogether. [/B]

I have used ISMI springs, and found no difference in them than in wolff springs. I will even go so far as to say that the Wolff springs are better because they are the CORRECT LENGTH when you buy them, and you don't have to guess what length to trim them to.

A spring is a spring is a spring, just as a nail is a nail is a nail, so the analogy is very reasonable. THe concept is the same.

[racine]

Your analogy is flawed based on basic metallurgy alone. If a "...spring is a spring..." then why have all manner of industries come up with validity testing, Quality Controls, Random Sampling to maintain a higher standard of product and improve on what we once had. If I were to follow your analogy then I'd still be driving a model T, using iron nails on my roof, drinking water from the river... Sorry, that kind of thinking did not get us to the moon...

[a1911owner]

Originally posted by racine
Your analogy is flawed based on basic metallurgy alone. If a "...spring is a spring..." then why have all manner of industries come up with validity testing, Quality Controls, Random Sampling to maintain a higher standard of product and improve on what we once had. If I were to follow your analogy then I'd still be driving a model T, using iron nails on my roof, drinking water from the river... Sorry, that kind of thinking did not get us to the moon...

THe point is that the CONCEPT BEHIND SPRINGS IS THE SAME.

Of course this guy says his springs are better. He wants to sell them and make money.

But are they REALLY any better? Not really, and I have used ISMI before.

If you want to get into theory and all the rest of it, it would be better for them to sell springs PRECUT, instead of having you do it at home with who knows what kind of tool. THat way they can regulate the cut, the direction of the grain (yes, metal has a 'grain') and temper the cut.

But they don't.

Like I said, if he REALLY thinks that spring set is a REAL problem, then he must get his springs changed every rotation, because spring set would affect ALL springs, not just mag springs.

[racine]

"...If you want to get into theory and all the rest of it, it would be better for them to sell springs PRECUT, instead of having you do it at home with who knows what kind of tool. THat way they can regulate the cut, the direction of the grain (yes, metal has a 'grain') and temper the cut. But they don't.
Like I said, if he REALLY thinks that spring set is a REAL problem, then he must get his springs changed every rotation, because spring set would affect ALL springs, not just mag springs..."

I get it, you're joking right? How does PRECUTing "regulate the direction of the grain or the temper of the cut??? I think your grasping at staws here. Seriously though, ISMI sells their springs long to accomodate the hundreds of different "OEM" magazine lengths, styles, and capacities so you yourself can determine what length works best for your needs. I'm sorry those springs don't work for you but for my SA45 7/8/10 rounder, HK USP45 12/17 rounder, G35 15/20 rounder magazines are all ISMI. Given them a call, I'm sure he would be glad to refund your money. I don't work for them nor do I purposely advertise for them, I just know their springs work. Funny, for the longest time I thought BMW too was just a whole lot of hype- till I drove one.

[a1911owner]

Originally posted by racine
"...If you want to get into theory and all the rest of it, it would be better for them to sell springs PRECUT, instead of having you do it at home with who knows what kind of tool. THat way they can regulate the cut, the direction of the grain (yes, metal has a 'grain') and temper the cut. But they don't.
Like I said, if he REALLY thinks that spring set is a REAL problem, then he must get his springs changed every rotation, because spring set would affect ALL springs, not just mag springs..."

I get it, you're joking right? How does PRECUTing "regulate the direction of the grain or the temper of the cut??? I think your grasping at staws here. Seriously though, ISMI sells their springs long to accomodate the hundreds of different "OEM" magazine lengths, styles, and capacities so you yourself can determine what length works best for your needs. I'm sorry those springs don't work for you but for my SA45 7/8/10 rounder, HK USP45 12/17 rounder, G35 15/20 rounder magazines are all ISMI. Given them a call, I'm sure he would be glad to refund your money. I don't work for them nor do I purposely advertise for them, I just know their springs work. Funny, for the longest time I thought BMW too was just a whole lot of hype- till I drove one.

Have you ever bought a recoil spring from them? I have and it had to be cut to the proper length.
It's not grasping at straws when you read what the guy from ISMI wrote about their desire to control quality to the nth degree, so why leave a variable, and go on about qc this and qc that?
Sorry, but I have used OEM and aftermarket springs, and the best ones I've found so far are Wilson springs for 1911s and Wolff for everything else.

I don't dispute the fact that they may shotpeen their springs, or do what they claim to do, but when they go into a sales pitch in a spring discussion, you really have to wonder.....

I never said that their springs were crap, but when he statrted to prattle about how much they go into QC, why leave a variable like cutting the spring? The ycan figure out the best tension for a certain mag size, and sell them precut, and shot peened, and relieved at the cut if it REALLY makes as much difference as THEY claim.

[Glockdude1]

So far in the years I have been into weapons, I have only had to change 1 mag spring. It was for a factory 15rd beretta mag I picked up at a gun show for $5. Why $5? Because it was a VERY USED MILITARY MAG. The spring was very weak from god only knows how many rds. I had the mag refinished, along with a new spring. I kept the original follower in it. Works great.

;N

[R3508]

I shoot often enough and rotate my mags (always fresh ammo) never had a problem, I am on Glock #8.

_________________________________

R3508 G17 1st gen
NRA Member
Super Genius of the Universe

[g23defender]

i keep mine loaded all the time. i never had a problem with a magazine.(but i do go out to the range each month.)

[EAGLESFANPHILA]

My uncle had an old 25 calibur pistol he hadn't shot in about 20 years. We took it to the range and it fired with those old bullets. I have no doubt Glocks will work find after 30 days.

[toemag]

I once had a glock mag spring break on me, it snapped about two third's down. My local gunshop had a real giggle about it. The mag spring was replaced without charge, not that it would have caused me any problem's, as I have a further 10 mag's to choose from.

Tony

[Lady27]

Some of this on this sounds at least comforting considering mine stay loaded a lot. But with extensions on a 9 round they comfortably take 10. Not as much pressure as when they only loaded 9. That's good too. Anyway, my husband wants to buy me some extra mags so that I can rotate, because he is still of the mind that they need rotation. They will be 15 round mags, which will be nice. So for selfish reasons I am not showing him this thread until I get those mags. Once I have my extra mags you can persuade him that I don't really need to rotate.

[unclebob]

Originally posted by toemag
I once had a glock mag spring break on me, it snapped about two third's down. My local gunshop had a real giggle about it. The mag spring was replaced without charge, not that it would have caused me any problem's, as I have a further 10 mag's to choose from.

Tony

Do you always carry 10 mags with you all the time? I'm a firm believer in Murphy's law. I don't care if you went out to the range and shoot you grandpas mag that has been loaded since World War 1. Would you take it and use that mag for a carry piece. I sure would not, Yes it works fine out on the practice range but when the chip are down Murhpy takes over. How many of you go out to the range and shoot a gun nothen happens. Go to a match and as soon as the buzzer goes off everything goes to hell, Murhphy's Law at work again. If you like carrying a mag in your gun that has been loaded for the last 10 years that is your prerogative. Me, I switch mags every month and change the ammo every 6 months. just like the battery in the smoke detecter. I know Murphy all to well. Just my 2 cents.

[Locojmc]

Great thread thanks to all for the info.;)

[Glockdude1]

;P

[a1911owner]

Originally posted by unclebob
Do you always carry 10 mags with you all the time? I'm a firm believer in Murphy's law. I don't care if you went out to the range and shoot you grandpas mag that has been loaded since World War 1. Would you take it and use that mag for a carry piece. I sure would not, Yes it works fine out on the practice range but when the chip are down Murhpy takes over. How many of you go out to the range and shoot a gun nothen happens. Go to a match and as soon as the buzzer goes off everything goes to hell, Murhphy's Law at work again. If you like carrying a mag in your gun that has been loaded for the last 10 years that is your prerogative. Me, I switch mags every month and change the ammo every 6 months. just like the battery in the smoke detecter. I know Murphy all to well. Just my 2 cents.

Nobody said never to change mag springs or rotate mags. WHat has been said is the the issue of spring set is way overblown.

You don't need to change mag springs every six months in the vast majority of cases.

[toemag]

Your right Unclebob, I don't always have 10 mag's on hand. On a normal range day I'll have 5 or so in the range bag, and another two in the box with the G17.

Mr. Murphy has done enough to me in the past few year's to start a thread or a blog, just on him & his escapade's. I wonder what he pack's?

We don't have a need for CCW here, if and when I carry the G17 while hunting I normally have two mag's on me, I think that 34 round's will be more than I could need. As a rule I carry the Colt Detective Special 2, with 2 speedloader's filled with SJHP.

Apart from that one spring that broke on me, I aint replaced any of the other's and they work fine.

Tony

[Glockdude1]

;a

[mpanwar]

After reading the above I am happy that our mags can stay loaded aka compressed.

However, what if I added one of those Grip Extension things (Pearce, Scherer, etc) that add +1 or +2 capacity.

Guess that may overload the spring, possibly not, what do you think?

[unclebob]

Originally posted by a1911owner
Nobody said never to change mag springs or rotate mags. WHat has been said is the the issue of spring set is way overblown.

You don't need to change mag springs every six months in the vast majority of cases.

That is not what I said. I have over 80 Glock mags the only springs that I have changed so far is I think 10 of them that I wanted a longer spring In the mag. Other than that All of the others are okey. I never said to change the mag springs every six months. I said For my carry gun I rotate my 5 carry mags every month, and change the ammo every 6 months. Yes the issue of spring set is probably overblown. But I'm not going to be the one that test out some ones else theory, that he or she may or may not know what they are talking about. If you want to keep your same mags load for 6 months or 6 years, that is your prerogative. It's just not mine. I don't claim to be a expert. Just almost 60 years of personal experance dealing with Mr. Murphy on and off.

[drew357]

When I went to Iraq in 2003 they told us not to load our M16A2 mags with the full 30 rounds. We could only load 28 rounds in 3 mags and carry 40 extra rounds on clips. But my Glock 19 and 32 always stay loaded. Never had any problem.

[DocGlock2006]

While the fact of my magazines being constantly loaded to "Max" for the past 7 years hardly compares to that of the WWII magazines, it does present sufficient time to assure that time compressed does not bring about significant or meaningful decrease of the springs' functional integrity. In terms of the "myth" coming in, I believe that it is not "myth", but "marketing". We are told by those who would sell us "rebuild kits" for our magazines that we "need them". Not! I have never rebuilt any magazine, and all of my magazines still function fine. This was a fantastic thread! Thank-you all! Save your money for something more significant--more magazines, not more magazine springs. :)

DocGlock2006

[squirreld]

I back off 1 round.

why,
-what jobob said about seating the magazine, I have had more than 1 mag fall out.
-racking the slide is much harder with the full mag.
-that last round is just a *%^$# to load and cuts my fingers after doing it all day.
-It can only help the spring.

[cyberghostx13]

Hello. I recently purchased a Glock 37, for "Home Defense" and some target shooting. I will only be able to shoot once a month maybe, due to being just too busy. However, carrying a firearm as in "Day Job" I do not, so I am not going to be an expert on any of this stuff. Well here's my question/scenario. I have two mags loaded, one is in the Glock(But not chambered), if I don't get to the range but once a month, how often should I unload and let magazines be empty(I just purchased 3 more for a total of 5) and also what about the bullets and rotation thereof etc. I'm a ole USMC Vietnam Veteran that is new to this(Glock and having a firearm at home for defense), and appreciate all the help I can get. CG13.

[Glockdude1]

cyberghostx13,

Those mags will never give you any problem being fully loaded. It is a myth (put out by spring makers) that mags springs are damaged by leaving them loaded. Always keep your Glock ready with 1 in the chamber. The bad guys always have thier weapons ready, so should you.

:cool:

[cyberghostx13]

Thanks for the advice Glockdude, much appreciated. CG13.

[Illuminaughty]

I used to have a ruger 10/22 with those 10 round factory rotary mags.. I left them loaded for a few years, and they all had feed problems, and one must've broke or something, the ammo just fell out of the mag.

I've left my ak mags loaded (about 20 or so) for years, and never had a problem with one of them. I've left my hungarian .380 loaded for years, and no problems. I've left my hi point .45 loaded for as long as I've had it (maybe a year, not much, but hey) and have had no problem.

I think its just very poorly designed/faulty/cheap mags that have problems. I keep all my guns loaded to the very last bullet and have never had a problem other than that .22 I used to have.

And before that I had an oooold .22 that loaded just fine with the magazine it came with, even after I kept it loaded for a few years strait.

[Glockdude1]

I too have left AK mags loaded for several years and have never had a single 30rd mag give me any problems.

:cool:

[americandude]

Awsome Thread!!!
I've been looking for this exact info.

I was told by a police officer once, that him and his fellow officers always load their mags to 1 less than full (12 in a 13 round mag etc.). They do this because it lowers the potential problem of a mag spring breaking. Is it common for police officers to do this? Is it common for springs to break?

Thank's again, to you all, for the valuable info.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally posted by americandude
Awsome Thread!!!
I've been looking for this exact info.

I was told by a police officer once, that him and his fellow officers always load their mags to 1 less than full (12 in a 13 round mag etc.). They do this because it lowers the potential problem of a mag spring breaking. Is it common for police officers to do this? Is it common for springs to break?

Thank's again, to you all, for the valuable info.

I think that's just personal ritual kind of thing.

Never heard such a thing being implemented officially/professionally.

[americandude]

Originally posted by Illuminaughty
I think that's just personal ritual kind of thing.

Never heard such a thing being implemented officially/professionally.

OK.

Thank you.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally posted by americandude
OK.

Thank you.

I've heard about an older generation of mags wearing out with he +2 extensions however. But this wasn't a consistent problem either, just with some people. If you're not modding your mags with the +2 extension and/or they're not used mags, you have nothing to worry about in my opinion.

[americandude]

Originally posted by Illuminaughty
I've heard about an older generation of mags wearing out with he +2 extensions however. But this wasn't a consistent problem either, just with some people. If you're not modding your mags with the +2 extension and/or they're not used mags, you have nothing to worry about in my opinion.

Good.

[LoneWolfUSMC]

My G21 Duty mags stay loaded 24/7

I used to use them for competition too, so they would get unloaded and reloaded with ball ammo for the match, then reloaded with Hydrashock at the end.

Now I have a extra set of mags, so the only time the duty mags get unloaded is during qualification (use the old duty ammo to qual with).

I have never had a problem with them and they get the crap beaten out of them on my belt.

My AR15 mags stay loaded constantly as well, but department policy is to download by two. So I keep 28 in my 30 rounders 24/7.

[Glockdude1]

If leaving mags loaded was a real problem, all of us would be constantly buying new mags to replace the "worn out" mags. That is not the case.

:supergrin:

[Peace Warrior]

Years ago my military trained brother advised/taught me to "cycle the ammo" in my clips and always leave it one round short if I ever used an M-15 or M-16. (This was for early models' (ca.60's) jamming heart-aches that were caused and or associated with the exact tolerances of these two weapons.) He said by simply "cycling my ammo" (rearranging) the ammo in the clip, i "NEVER" had to worry about a magazine spring not functioning in other type of weapons.

I do it to this day and I dont have problems.

By the way, I have used the ORIGNAL Glock magazine that came with my first G-22, which I received in 1999, although not on purpose I have "beat up" this G-22 as a side arm for almost 8 years. Although I now carry a newer Glock for self-defense, I use my "old" G-22 as a sidearm for hunting and practice at the range. IT STILL USES THE ORIGINAL MAGAZINE WITH NO PROBLEMS. All I have ever done is "cycled my ammo." (Brother Skip, if you read this, thanks for that info!)

[Peace Warrior]

Sir,

It bothers me that you have your personal protection weapon being set "on stun."

"Lock and load!"

[windpipe]

glock springs can be kept loaded year after year. They are manufactured to handle this. My 1911 magazines suggest I replace the spring after one year of being continuously loaded.

[Glockdude1]

Originally posted by windpipe
My 1911 magazines suggest I replace the spring after one year of being continuously loaded.

Your Mags "told" you this?????

J/K, could'nt resist.........

:laughabove:

[windpipe]

ya. doc says i'm ok just as long as the gun doesnt start telling me things.

[trover]

This is really good info and contradicts much of what I've previously been told rather convincingly. Thanks very much.

[Glockdude1]

:thumbsup:

[Scouse]

The best follower ever made by Glock, for the 9mm, #6 the end of the spring fits inside of it, push the nose of the follower down, no tip what so ever, it just moves down wards, smooth as you like.

While you order those, might as well get new springs also, not that expensive. I am.

[Glockdude1]

Originally posted by Scouse
The best follower ever made by Glock, for the 9mm, #6 the end of the spring fits inside of it, push the nose of the follower down, no tip what so ever, it just moves down wards, smooth as you like.

While you order those, might as well get new springs also, not that expensive. I am.

:agree:

The #6 followers work the best. I put them in all of my G22 mags. Glock quit making the #6's. All new mags come with #8's.

:thumbsup:

[zukworld]

I think I have the record for this thread.

After moving to California, I went 10 years without shooting. The whole time my G17 original series #BAxxx was in the factory box, with both (17rd) mags fully loaded with Winchester Hydro-shock.

Took it to the range, fired all 34 w/out mishap. (then reloaded and shot the rest of the box.) BUT the slide failed to lock open on the empty mags.

So I had all the springs replaced, bought 2 more 17rd mags, and have been very happy since. Now I usually load only 16 as the last round is very difficult to load with my stock clip loader. For me, it's not worth the effort to get the last one in.

I also took the opportunity to have an extended slide release installed, as I find it very hard to reach with my short thumbs.

Love shooting my G17, wish I'd bought the G19 at the same time.

z

[15AcreWoods]

I have been told not to keep magazines loaded by experts. I have not had extensive experience with centerfire automatics being a wheel gunner, but I do have a Ruger Mark I I have had since the 60s. I have two magazines for it and have kept them loaded for for 40 years + and have had no problems with failure to load. This may be comparing apples to oranges but they are both fruit so there may be some connection.

[glockman2005]

I called Glock last year about this magazine question. I was told by a G tech that you should unload a Glock mag every 6 mos. & let it sit for 6 mos. good enough for me.

[paper warrior]

I keep the two factory 17Rd. and a Scherer 33Rd. full all of the time. No problems.

[Rocetmal]

If I'm going to have a gun fight, I will take a brand new never loaded Glock, Sig, or Kimber mag over any mag in the world that has been left loaded to capacity for 25 years, or even one year. A guy I certified as an instructor a few years back who owns a security firm brought a CZ over the other day with feeding problems. The spring tension was almost non existent. I told him to get a new mag, he did, and no more problems. You may say its a myth perpetuated by spring makers, but I'd disagree - also I have a good friend who is a gunsmith. I don't know, sometimes facts are good to have, and sometimes real life experience plays a different hand, who knows eh?

For reference, check out the FAQs:
http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html

Also, it is good to cycle your bullets regularly. The reason I never send the same bullet home twice ever is that the kinetic energy expended when the slide slams forward to chamber the round is enough to weaken the crimp or potential pressure that bullet can contain significantly. A bullet puller is a hammer like tool that you put the bullet into when you've screwed it up seating the bullet too deeply, and you want to pop it out and reseat it. All you do is put the bullet in a bullet case holder inside a plastic container on the hammer like object, give it one swift swing down on a table and out pops the round. That's all it takes. So, every time you send a round home, you give it at least 20% of what a bullet puller puts on it in terms of kinetic energy that loosens the crimp.

[JohnKSa]

Took it to the range, fired all 34 w/out mishap. (then reloaded and shot the rest of the box.) BUT the slide failed to lock open on the empty mags.Sounds like the springs "took a set". :supergrin: How could that possibly happen?

I find it amusing that often the same people who claim springs don't weaken from being left compressed will tell people who complain about their mags being hard to load fully that they should load them up and leave them for awhile. Then they'll be easier to load. Hmmm... Let's think about that for a minute.

Here's the truth about springs.

Well designed springs, constructed from good quality materials and manufactured properly will not weaken appreciably from being left compressed. If you compromise any of the above qualifiers (design, materials, manufacture) then they can weaken from being left compressed. Furthermore, springs, even ideal springs, will weaken very slowly over time from being cycled, and they will also weaken significantly if they are "over-compressed".

It's VERY rare to find a good quality single column magazine that has problems with being left fully loaded for two reasons. First of all, the spring bends tend to be very smooth (rounded) in typical single stacks while double-column mag springs often have corners and sharp bends (good design). Second, single column mags aren't usually designed with the goal of squeezing every last bit of capacity out of the gun (springs not over-compressed when fully loaded). The maker would have gone to a staggered design if that were a major design goal.

Anyone who doesn't believe springs can be weakened from constant compression just needs to talk to an experienced spring-piston airgunner. Spring-piston airguns are powered by large springs. Since those springs are the heart of airguns that may cost several hundred dollars, they are very high quality springs. And yet, any spring-piston airgun manual will tell you not to leave the gun cocked (spring compressed) for any longer than you need to. They'll tell you that shooting the gun won't hurt it, but leaving it cocked will weaken the spring. For those who doubt, this "theory", it can be and has been tested. The results of one such experiment used to be posted online but the link is now defunct. However, if you're really interested (or hard to convince), you can probably find the "R1" book by Tom Gaylord. (http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/05/how-long-does-mainspring-last-part-2.html) He includes the results of a similar test involving several premium springs from custom spring makers. Even these specially made springs showed easily measurable weakening from being left fully compressed.

The problem with spring-piston airguns is this. The spring can't be so strong that it's impossible for the average user to cock it and yet it needs to produce maximum power for its size. The compromise that airgun designers accept is to overcompress the spring. That provides a great power to size ratio while still keeping cocking effort reasonable.

Magazines are a similar compromise. Spring power can't be excessive or the ammunition will be damaged, the slide won't be able to strip rounds and the magazine will be impossible to load. But we still want to maximize capacity. Some gun makers decided that the way to achieve this is to overcompress the spring--it's no big deal, especially since springs are a low-cost maintenance item anyway. EXCEPT that many well-meaning but ill-informed people have spread the myth that springs don't ever weaken from being left compressed.

So, what's the bottom line?

Check your equipment regularly (we all do this anyway. Right?). If you note springs weakening from being left loaded, replace them with high-quality parts--first you want to eliminate the possibility of quality issues. If they weaken again from being left loaded, replace them again but now you've determined that even quality springs are going to weaken in your magazine design. You have two options at this point. You can either underload the mags by a round or two or determine how long the springs will last and simply replace them before they begin to weaken. Mag springs are cheap, even the best ones.

[3919sacreflex]

I agree with all that was written about leaving mags loaded without any affect on the springs. I really believe this all to be true. It makes sense.
BUT, I left two Colt .45 mags fully loaded for about 20 years. And guess what happened when I ran them through the gun? Yep...about 2 or 3 rounds from each mag were FTF. I then loaded up 3 other mags that were left empty for the same period of time and ran them through my Commander without any problems at all. All ammo was from the same batch. :faint:

Any ideas?

[dp509]

Several years ago, we had two officers on a domestic call where a grandfather beat his grandson. Officers arrive, grandson said that grandfather had a revolver in his truck. After officers arrived and spoke with grandson, grandfather exits residence and runs to his truck. Officers are too far away to grab him. He comes out with the revolver shooting. :wow:

One officer is carrying a Sig P220. He had never let his magazines rest or swapped magazines every month (he only had three).

The other officer is a carry a S & W .45 Long Colt 4" Nickel.

The officer with the Sig got off one round. The magazine failed to feed the next round up. :faint: He missed with his one and only round fired. :embarassed:

The second officer hit him with a .45 Long Colt in the chest. He was DRT :whistling:.

The Sig was checked and it was found that all three magazine springs were worn out. They were replaced with wolf springs. The gun ran flawless after that. He also bought extra magazines and swapped them every month.

The officer with the Sig later retired and the officer with the .45 Long Colt got promoted to SGT. :tongueout:

[JohnKSa]

Proof positive that at least in some cases springs weaken from being left compressed.

www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1009595055

[d3athp3nguin]

I remember purging my dad's 15-year old hollow points downrange that had been sitting in mags for 15 years, and I experienced no problems whatsoever. I did take apart the mags and found that the spring on one was slightly rusted, so I cleaned it. The mags still work fine, though I still have that nagging urge to buy more mags for the gun because...well... age affects everything, and those mags have been sitting loaded for a looong time...

I don't see how rotating mags and cycling ammo, say, every year would hurt. I think it is a sensible middle ground for people who are unsure about which side of this debate is "right." From either way you look at it, you are leveling out the "wear" on your mags. If you rotate your range and carry mags every year, you are either giving the range mags a break by leaving them compressed, or you are giving the carry mags a break by having them loaded less often for a year. Then you can also shoot your carry ammo out before rotating, and satisfy any paranoia about your carry ammo going bad.

Then buy two new carry mags whenever you've convinced yourself that none of your mags are reliable for carry anymore.

Problem solved!

[dwebb210]

... I did take apart the mags and found that the spring on one was slightly rusted, so I cleaned it. ...

I know it has been a while since anything has been added to this thread,
but after seeing this I thought it deserved a comment.

Any surface defect in a spring can serve as a place to initiate a crack.

While light surface rust may not be enough, "corrosion stress cracking"
is a real metallurgical issue and should be considered when talking about
a firearm magazine.

I wouldn't think twice about keeping the magazine for range use only,
but if it was a magazine I wanted to actually rely on, I would replace the
spring as the rust has caused at least some pitting, and increased the
likelihood of the spring to break.

On a tangent, I will add that at one time I owned of of those Scherer 33 round
magazines made for a Glock 9mm. I filled it with ammo, but never used it
in a gun. A year later I took the ammo out of that magazine, and the
spring had lost so much of it's shape that it failed to bring the last 5 rounds
to the feed lips. As stated before, there are good springs, and bad springs.
Scherer obviously doesn't know how to make good springs.

[SW342]

I have always left my mags loaded, but not saying that is the proper thing to do....just something I have always done.

[CPT_CRUNCH]

no problems here

[SGT109]

Load'em to the max!

[Dogguy]

Very interesting thread.

But I would like to point out that the reason you hear about magazines being left loaded for decades and still being able to work perfectly is because it is an unusual event. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of magazines left loaded and unattended for extended periods of time do cease to function properly. Personally, I have four first generation, NFML G19 mags that are all due for new springs. They've been rotated regularly but they're almost 20 years old and they simply are getting baggy and saggy with age (kinda like I am :whistling:).

All springs eventually will eventually lose elasticity over time when compressed. Compare some older magazine springs and recoil springs with new ones. They flatten out a bit and don't return to their original length. I'm not a metallurgist, physicist or scientist in any respect but I do have pretty good powers of observation. And my observation is that any spring will lose some of its "spring" if you keep it compressed long enough. If I'm depending on the cartridges in that magazine to keep me alive, I'd prefer the spring to still be springy.

It will happen to your automobile springs as well, given the time and circumstances. I can remember once having a co-worker who was very obese--she probably weighed in a little over 400 pounds. She drove an old Toyota Tercel (IIRC). That little car was permanently tilted toward the driver's side, even when she wasn't sitting behind the wheel. A fine example of over compression.

Everyone has an opinion. It appears to me that those who depend on self loaders to keep them alive usually recommend some scheduled decompression of magazine springs and periodic replacement of recoil springs. It seems like common sense to me, despite what the magazine article quoted in the opening thread had to say.

But, of course, common sense is relatively uncommon these days.

[PAGunner]

Very interesting thread.

But I would like to point out that the reason you hear about magazines being left loaded for decades and still being able to work perfectly is because it is an unusual event. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of magazines left loaded and unattended for extended periods of time do cease to function properly. Personally, I have four first generation, NFML G19 mags that are all due for new springs. They've been rotated regularly but they're almost 20 years old and they simply are getting baggy and saggy with age (kinda like I am :whistling:).

I'm no expert, but from what I've been told is that springs wear out because of use, not from being constantly compressed at the same length. My first thought was that it does wear out the springs, but the experts beg to differ, so I'll defer to their judgement.