Combat Commander jams

[shadow160]

Hi everyone, I really need some help.

I have a series 80 Colt Combat Commander in .45acp. The pistol will not strip the fisrt round off of the mag if I fully load it to 8. If I keep it one down it does not always strip it smoothly but it will do it.

This has been a problem since day one. It was new in box when I bought it. In the beginning it also would jam when firing (ball ammo) The gunsmith did a bunch of work on it to try to remedy the problem. He fixed the failure to feed while firing. But the problem stripping the first round still exists.

The ramp has been polished, the barrel thorated, bolt face polished.
Factory mags, I tried a friends series 70 gold cup mags that have a different style follower.

I have ignored this problem for years and don't know what else to do.

I would REALLY appreciate any help or insight you can offer me.

I really do not know what else to do.

Thanks in advance

[Freeze N]

Order a Wilson 47D 8 round mag. I have this gun also and the Wilson mags work better than the shooting star (Colt Mags). Give it a try. They are on sale this month from Midway USA for 20 bucks or so.

[OUSooner]

Try different mags and see if that helps. If not then send back to Colt as they have a lifetime warranty.

[shadow160]

Originally posted by OUSooner
Try different mags and see if that helps. If not then send back to Colt as they have a lifetime warranty.

I don't think they will warranty it since the gunsmith at the original store did a bunch of work on it. I will try a different pair of mags.

[shadow160]

It has also been recommended to me that I should put in a heavier recoil spring so I will pull the first round with more force.

According to gunsprings.com the commander comes stock with a 18lb spring. Should I try a 20lb or do you think that may cause ejection problems?

I will order the new mags today.

[prairieviper]

Originally posted by shadow160
It has also been recommended to me that I should put in a heavier recoil spring so I will pull the first round with more force.

According to gunsprings.com the commander comes stock with a 18lb spring. Should I try a 20lb or do you think that may cause ejection problems?

I will order the new mags today.


Every gun is different but the only trouble I have ever had with my Combat Commander was when I experimented with heavier (20 pound and 22 pound) springs. I went back to my orginal 18 pounder and have never had a problem. I do use Wilson Mags.

[aglocker1911]

Are you trying to load the first round by using the slide stop lever from a locked open position, or do you "slingshot" it? If it only has the "first round" problem from slide lock, try leaving the slide in the "closed" position, insert the mag , and pull the slide clear back and let it snap forward and see if that helps. Of course, this could all be moot if the Wilson mags help you. Good luck.

[shadow160]

prairieviper

That is kind of what I am afraid of. I am afraid a heaver spring may cause stovepiping or other FTE problems that I do not have now.


Originally posted by aglocker1911
Are you trying to load the first round by using the slide stop lever from a locked open position, or do you "slingshot" it? If it only has the "first round" problem from slide lock, try leaving the slide in the "closed" position, insert the mag , and pull the slide clear back and let it snap forward and see if that helps. Of course, this could all be moot if the Wilson mags help you. Good luck.

Slingshot, Only has a problem with 8 in the mag, 7 rarely hangs, 6 or less, Never a problem.

[sparky315]

Send it to a good 1911 smith such as Ted Yost, Chuck Rogers, Don Williams, etc. They should be able to diagnose the problem and get the gun running in short order.

[CCV]

This is why I've standardized on 7 round mags.

[shadow160]

Originally posted by CCV
This is why I've standardized on 7 round mags.

Well that is one solution, but it came from Colt with 8 round mags. You would think that something that has been around as long as a 1911 would be able to feed the standard mags.

I did buy this along time ago when Colt was having some problems, I think they even had an owner change in the early 90's as I remember. So this could have been something that took place during the change and quality control was down.

I will let everyone know how the mags work.

[CCV]

It may have come from COLT with 8 round mags, but 7 round mags have been the standard for 1911's since, well, 1911.

[shadow160]

Originally posted by CCV
It may have come from COLT with 8 round mags, but 7 round mags have been the standard for 1911's since, well, 1911.

Hummm, Well it seems I learned something new today. I was unaware of that fact. I wonder what they did to squeeze that extra round in?

Thanks for the info.

[CCV]

Buy yourself some good quality 7 round mags (I like Metalform) and I'm betting the problem magically goes away.

[shadow160]

Well, I already ordered the wilson's if that does not work I will try your suggestion. Does Midway sell the brand you are talking about also?

Do you have any idea why 8 round mags would make a difference?

[Freeze N]

Shadow, As said before, I have the same gun. I have a bit of trouble with the feed lips on the Colt mag, with 8 rounds in it. I use the Wilson 8 round mags in all of my 1911's and have had no problems with them. I think you will like them. I am not saying the other mags recommended are not good mags.

[shadow160]

Well thank you everyone for the assistance. This problem has plagued me for a long long time now. I look forward to finally resolving it and making it 100% reliable, or as close to it as it as possible with a mechanical object.

When I get the mags I will report back and let you all know how it works.

Any suggestions for a good concelement hoslter for it? I am finding I do not really care for the old Galco IWB that it is in now.

[CCV]

For a holster take a long look at Milt Sparks.


www.miltsparks.com

[shadow160]

Will peak there now, Thanks again


Edit to add:

The VM2 and the summer special 2 look interesting.

[CCV]

I have a Summer Special II and it is excellent. They also made a duel mag pouch for me.


Nice folks and good products.

[Mail Clerk]

Originally posted by shadow160
Hi everyone, I really need some help.

I have a series 80 Colt Combat Commander in .45acp. The pistol will not strip the fisrt round off of the mag if I fully load it to 8. If I keep it one down it does not always strip it smoothly but it will do it.

This has been a problem since day one. It was new in box when I bought it. In the beginning it also would jam when firing (ball ammo) The gunsmith did a bunch of work on it to try to remedy the problem. He fixed the failure to feed while firing. But the problem stripping the first round still exists.

The ramp has been polished, the barrel thorated, bolt face polished.
Factory mags, I tried a friends series 70 gold cup mags that have a different style follower.

I have ignored this problem for years and don't know what else to do.

I would REALLY appreciate any help or insight you can offer me.

I really do not know what else to do.

Thanks in advance

Shadow,

Take apart and clean that magazine and see what happens. The only other problem might be your magazine catch lip is slightly protruding too much inside the body.

Mail Clerk

[shadow160]

Mail Clerk,

It happens with all 3 mags, and they are very clean. I will check the mag catch tonight when I get home.


Thanks for the help.

[Halfcocked]

I would think replacing the recoil spring with another standard 18-lb recoil spring might be beneficial. Are you aware of the history of the gun? How many rounds, etc? It may be that your current recoil spring is worn out and that eigth round can be in there pretty tight in some mags. No need to go up in poundage, just try a fresh one.

[sheepdog]

To make the original standard 7 round magazine fit 8, the magazine makers had to change the shape of the follower and put a bit less spring-length or thickness or something-into it. I think the CMC style invented by Kelsey (Devel) was the first one of the "make it 8" type but I'm not sure. Most people I know can make 8s work just fine, but there are exceptions. I know that Springfield Armory specifically told me to use only 7s in my (Commander length, almost) Champion to enusre good feeing. Lots of serious folks use only "old fashioned" 7s for that reason. My CMC 8s work fine in my 5 inch gun.
This is, of course, if my memory is right....

[shadow160]

Halfcocked,

I would estimate that it has somewhere between 3000 - 5000 rounds throught it. I will replace the recoil spring, it is cheap enough, but this has happened since new in box. I know that the commander uses a lighter spring then the regular goverment model. So maybe that is why they can handle 8 rounds better then the commander.

Sheepdog

Thanks for the info. I am one of those people that need to know the how and why of things or it will drive me crazy untill I do. ;g

I would like to thank everyone again for the great information.

I was very new to the shooting sports when I purchased the commander. I tried to get it corrected and when it did not work, since I did not know what else to do I just accepted it.

Now many years later I finally believe that I can fix this problem with the help I have recieved here.

Recently I was going to trade it, now I will keep it and enjoy it the way I should have been able to from the begining.

Thank you again!

[NoGo]

Your Commander SHOULD work w/ quality (Wilson or CMC, just to be sure) 8 round mags. And anyway, if the slide can pick up the round, shouldn't have FTF jams on ball ammo. The 7 round mags or 20lb spring may resolve the problems, but something still ain't right.

How's the slide to frame fit? Loose/ tight/ rough? Spring sacked out?

At a range in a safe direction, watch several rounds chamber as you let the slide return to battery slowly. Is the bullet nose hitting the base of the feedramp? Is the cartridge head sticking on the breech face?


My $0.02 on 1911 CC holsters- I have a UCR and really like it, but after recently getting a FIST for my G30, I'm thinking of buying one to fit my Commander. Both are very nice, durable and reasonably priced.

[shadow160]

The slide and frame fit well, Not to tight not too loose. Slight rattle can be heard if you shake the pistol. I *believe* the spring to still be good with the low amount of rounds it has seen.

The nose of the bullet jams on the bottom lip of the barrel. 8 rounds in the clip seems to change the angle of the bullet slightly nose down so this problem is amplified. Most of the rounds (JHP) hung here while I was slowly cycling by hand. If I sling shot it I did push them up and in. It does this with ball ammo also, I just did not have any on hand right now.

I am charging my camera batteries and will try to get some quality pics of how the feed ramp meets the barrel.

[shadow160]

Ok here are some pics

8 rounds on left 7 on right (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/EPSN0134Small.jpg)

Feed 1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/EPSN0135Small.jpg)

Feed 2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/EPSN0136Small.jpg)

Barrel 1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/EPSN0138Small.jpg)

Jam 1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/EPSN0139Small.jpg)

Jam 2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/EPSN0140Small.jpg)

[Halfcocked]

Shadow-

I believe it is recommended you change the recoil spring every 3-4k rounds. I change them every 2k in my defensive guns just to be safe.

Seeing the pics, I think your mags are the issue. Honestly, I would just stick with the 7-rounders. Most of your nicer 8's (wilson and mc cormick) will run 8 fine, but almost all 7 rounders with fresh springs will run all the time. There is just less pressure on that last bullet.

Hope you get your problem solved. The 1911 really is a great platform when properly maintained. Good luck.

[shadow160]

Well it seems I am always learning, I did not realize that they should be replaced that often. I will head over to gunsprings.com to order a new one.

On my way to having a reliable 1911 ;f

[Mail Clerk]

Originally posted by shadow160
Mail Clerk,

It happens with all 3 mags, and they are very clean. I will check the mag catch tonight when I get home.


Thanks for the help.

Shadow160,

OK you've eliminated that possible. You will/can get a better idea when you check the "catch" by removing the slide and insert the magazine. Push down on the follower and see if it moves up and down smoothly inside the magazine body. If it snags on anything you know it has to be the catch. Sometimes it can also be the body of the magazine also but IF it happens with all three of them it's possible all three of them are defective. Take it step by step and just see what happens.

Mail Clerk

[shadow160]

Mail Clerk, I will let you know,

Thanks,

John

[NoGo]

Looking at your pictures, I wonder if you have an inadequate gap between the feed ramp and barrel. I don't have my Kuhnhausen manual handy, and cannot recall the exact name of the gap I'm referring to, but it's necessary to have a little "Jump" space there. Kuhnhausen's has the minimum dimensions necessary.

Sometimes, gunsmiths (Home, factory or professional) can take too much off the feedramp, thinking that they're making a perfectly smooth path for the nose of the bullet to follow to the chamber mouth.

This can be one of those irritating 1911 "isms" that frustrate people.

Keep us posted with your progress, and if all else fails I'll take it off your hands if you send it to my FFL ;)

[shadow160]

There is a small gap. I do not know what it is suppose to be. I will take a peek inside with the pistol in my hand instead of laying on a table with pressure on the barrel.

Oh and thanks.....but I think I will keep it.....for now;g

[NoGo]

OK, at home now. I grabbed my well worn copy of Kuhnhausen's Vol I.
(Available from Brownells)

Pages 65-67 discuss the barrel link-down space measurement.
Summarized by me-

Pull the slide off and barrel out. Set the barrel into position on the frame and insert the slide stop (Crosspin), then settle the barrel down into position on the frame/ lug. Looking at where the frame ramp meets barrel ramp, there should be a .030" (1/32") space. From the text- "Slightly over 1/32" is better than less".

If the edge of the barrel ramp extends to or over the edge of the frame ramp, bullets can hang up, as depicted in one of your pictures. You could even insert a loaded mag and push a round forward to see the point of interference.

When the timing, headspace and lock up are set well on a 1911, it's remarkably tolerant of funky/ off sized/ dirty ammo.

Don't know if this helps, but hope that you get it working



In edit, I took another look at your jam pics but was unable to see if the rounds were hanging up or just stuck as the bullet contacted the frame feed ramp because of an inadequate recoil spring. I addition your frame ramp appears "Wide". Was this opened up by the Gunsmith?

And FWIW, I use a 20lb recoil spring on my Commander. Works fine with 18lb, but I prefer the 20lb for carry, since it strips rounds off the mag and into the chamber a bit more forcefully and theoretically more reliably. Plus it tosses the brass closer than the 18lb.

[shadow160]

Yes the gunsmith did work on it as it has had this problem from the day it was new.
I will take it apart and check the gap and let you know.

Thank you

[shadow160]

OK

Some more pics

1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/1.jpg)

2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/2.jpg)

3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/3.jpg)

4 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/4.jpg)

5 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/5.jpg)

Edited to add:

The gap appears to be about 15-20 thousands when assembled and the slide locked open.

[NoGo]

For comparison.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/326874.JPG
My Commander has very little space at the junction of frame ramp to barrel ramp, but polished smooth (Cold blued recently during a detail strip) and not a cause of FTF for over 4K, mostly SWC.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/326875.jpg
A bit blurry, but shows the frame ramp. Interesting that cartridge rims scuff at the base of the ramp, leaving brass marks. There's several significant attitude changes of the cartridge as it finds it's way into battery.

Have you determined what the bullet nose is hanging up on? Can you bang the rear of the slide with your off hand to chamber the round?

Once again, don't know if any of this is helping, but good luck, and if you can't get it fixed, try posting over at www.1911forum.com on the Gunsmith forum.

Part of the interest in 1911's is on how they work and sometimes not work.

[shadow160]

Humm, how did you get such clear pictures?

I can jam it in if I hit the back of the slide....sometime it has to be hit hard. Before the gunsmith did his thing on it, that was not posssible, if I tried to force it in it would start to deform the bullet.

The bullet is hanging right on the junction of the feed ramp and barrel. A little bit of oil and it goes right in...but that is just a bandaid on the problem.

[NoGo]

My wife's Panasonic Lumix Camera. Very nice but way beyond my level of understanding.

I think you might have identified the problem- Rough frame/barrel ramp junction, but apparently not overlapped. Before you go at it with Dremel, see if the new, stock# recoil spring and or quality mag fixes it.

If you decide to polish, try a fine grit Craytex bullet point bit, run at the slowest speed that a variable Dremel tool can run at. Less chance to screw things up. Once smoothed (Don't round off the top of the frame ramp), follow up with a dremel polishing wheel (The little, short cylinders of firm felt that screw on a screw point tip- Don't know the name) and the supplied Dremel red rouge. Together, they can give a nice polished and smooth finish without significant metal removal. Or, a folded piece of #600, then #800 paper over a dowel will work.

Worth ordering Kuhnhausen's Vol I, and might as well get Vol II. The details of further resetting the right proportions are in there, but if the spring, mag and polish don't work, It might be time for a 1911 experienced Gunsmith to give it some lovin'. As you remove metal from any of the barrel/ lug/ frame lock up surfaces, you may create other problems.

[kart racer]

Go to the high road forum and ask 1911 tuner for help.If you're close to NC,even if you're not he'll get it 100%.Normally 30 minutes or less he'll have the problems figured out and running like a top.I know I live near him and have seen him do it on all kinds of 1911's.

[NoGo]

Agreed, 1911 Tuner is an open minded and helpful guy. Not one of the knee jerk " 'Yer gonna die if you mess with it" kind of gunsmiths that occasionally grace the gun forums with their lack of constructive help and criticism. I thought he used to post here?

[DBR]

I see two things that appear from your photos to be wrong. The gap at the top of the feed ramp to the entry of the chamber is too short. This probably causes the edge of HP ammo to catch and may cause the edge of the case on FMJ to catch. The second thing I think is wrong is the throating at the bottom on the chamber. The angle appears to be too steep and the "rollover" at the top of the entry angle is too sharp. I think it needs to be radiused more like .030-.060. I know many smiths say this should be about .005, but the 45acp is a low pressure cartridge and using a softer break over greatly improves feeding, prevents "stem bind" and does not significantly reduce case support if the rollover break starts from a properly throated chamber. If your "gunsmith" shaped your feed ramp to make it a better match to the barrel entry he doesn't know what he is doing.

If you look at your photos of the 7rd and 8rd loaded mags, you will see that the 8rd has a larger gap between the top rd and the next rd. 1911 45 mags develop a progressively larger gap between the front of the top rd and the next rd starting with rd 5. It is a function of the mag angle and to my knowlege cannot be changed. When the mag is loaded to 7rds, the first rd to feed hits low on the feed ramp. Each succesive rd hits higher until rd 4 then they all hit at about the same height. Adding an 8th rd can make the first rd to feed hit too low on the feed ramp. This is the main reason 8rd mags are less reliable than seven rd mags assuming good springs etc.

Personally, I think the 1911 was designed to have 7rds in the mag. The first rd would be hand fed and the mag would not be topped off. Rd 6 feeds much more reliably than Rd 7. This is how I load my carry 1911s. I would much prefer 7 reliable rds (one in the chamber and six in the mag) than 8 or nine maybes-the worst part being that it is the first rds to feed that are the least reliable.

Another thing I have found to be important is that the length of the cartrige is such that the mag lips release the round just as it hits the feed ramp. Original military mags had tapered feed lips that were somewhat forgiving. This is not true of modern mags which seem to have been designed for short 185gr target SWC bullets. It seems an original design was "improved" by following target gun trends to the detriment of the original, reliable, military design.

One other thing that comes to mind: if the extractor is tensioned too tight or has a sharp edge on the bottom of the hook or is not fitted properly, it will not allow the case rim to snap under it as the rd leaves the mag. This can cause the type of jam you are experiencing.

[Mail Clerk]

Originally posted by shadow160
OK

Some more pics

1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/1.jpg)

2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/2.jpg)

3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/3.jpg)

4 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/4.jpg)

5 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/fla_cpl/5.jpg)

Edited to add:

The gap appears to be about 15-20 thousands when assembled and the slide locked open.


shadow160,

From the pics you/ve shown it appears the gap should be larger than what you have. Perhaps the ramp angles too steep.

Mail Clerk

[shadow160]

DBR, Mail Clerk,


Well that does not sound very easy to fix!!! Sounds like the gunsmith that did the work may have created a big problem.

What it the world is the remedy to that problem?

[DBR]

shadow160:

A gunsmith really familiar with the 1911 can cut the bottom of the barrel throat forward slightly and recut the entry angle and breakover radius. If the original "smith" did not mess up the feed ramp too much this might fix the problem. I have done this on several vintage guns that someone tried to make feed SWC ammo the wrong way. It does theoretically leave a bit more of the cartridge unsupported. In your case it looks like about .015-.020.

The 1911 supports the cartridge pretty well in stock form and it is a low pressure, forgiving caliber. I don't think it would cause a problem with factory ammo pressures. I have never seen a bulged case on the few guns I have modified. If the feed ramp is messed up then the gun has to go to someone like George Smith at Evolution Gun Works (EGW) to have the ramp welded and recut. If it was my gun and it came to that I would have the frame cut and install a ramped barrel.

[shadow160]

Originally posted by DBR
shadow160:

A gunsmith really familiar with the 1911 can cut the bottom of the barrel throat forward slightly and recut the entry angle and breakover radius. If the original "smith" did not mess up the feed ramp too much this might fix the problem. I have done this on several vintage guns that someone tried to make feed SWC ammo the wrong way. It does theoretically leave a bit more of the cartridge unsupported. In your case it looks like about .015-.020.

The 1911 supports the cartridge pretty well in stock form and it is a low pressure, forgiving caliber. I don't think it would cause a problem with factory ammo pressures. I have never seen a bulged case on the few guns I have modified. If the feed ramp is messed up then the gun has to go to someone like George Smith at Evolution Gun Works (EGW) to have the ramp welded and recut.

Humm, that sounds expensive;g

Hopefully it will not come to that. I should have known better then to trust a gunsmith named "Ziggy"

[DBR]

If all that is required is the barrel work it shouldn't cost more than about $50.00 if you don't have to ship the gun ie reputable local gunsmith. A shop like EGW will probably charge about $250-300 (my guess) to supply and fit a ramped barrel plus the cost of two way shipping. The up side is they will return to you a very reliable gun especially if you ask them to check out everything else while they have it. They will quote you a turn around time but think about 3-6 months.

[shadow160]

Wow, 3 - 6 months....they sound like busy boys.


Thanks for the great info. I will keep you updated.

[Ken Rainey]

As kart racer and NoGo said, holler at 1911Tuner and tell him of your problems...great guy, just tell him "cousin" Ken sent ya (along with kart racer and NoGo).

[shadow160]

Ok the new mags did not correct my problem ;g

I have since traded it in and will now begin the hunt for a new 1911 pistol.

Thank you everyone for your assistance. I have had this problem for so long that I was no longer willing to deal with it.