PM 9 vs Kel-tec P3at?

[aaroncstevens]

I'm a Kel-tec 380 owner and love pocket carry but need a bit more bang with a 9, and am a bit worried about Kel-tec reliability issues. Kahr pm9 is the next logical choice, but the same issues I see on kel-tec websites I see here (ftf, fte, fluff and buff needed, ammo pickiness, etc). On the other side, I do see a lot of fans of the pm9. Maybe you guys can tell me why I should or shouldn't ditch the kel-tec for a karh pm9. My main concerns are...
1. Am I going to need to put a lot of time into this pistol, or is it the type that will go bang when it needs to out of the box?
2. Is it at least in the same ballpark as the P3at for comfort in pocket carry?
3. Accuracy at 25 yards (assuming the problem is not operator related)?
4. What happens when Kahr's 1 year warranty runs out (vs lifetime with the kel-tec)? Will they still stand behind the product?
5. Is it really worth double (almost triple) the money?
6. Rusting issues?
7. Is there anyone in Philadelphia who has the pm9 who would let shoot it at the range (my range has one on consignment, but won't allow a buyer to shoot it first).

I have high hopes for the PM9, and would love to pick one up, but if it going to be another kel-tec experience, I'd just as soon spend the money on ammo. Any ideas?

[hayseed_40]

The 380 is nowhere near the same as a 9. I would switch to the 9 and make the PM9 work by changing carry habits if needed. The Kahr's have bugs but so do Keltecs. The Kahr beats keltec hands down on fit and finish. Spanks the keltec in accuracy. Worth triple the money.

I had a Keltec but never felt commfy with the inadequate round. Loved the size and it functioned almost 100%.

I dress around the gun and carry an MK40 as a BUG to my usp40c.

The keltec is good for what it is - a small cheap pocket pistol. Again, the caliber is just not worth it. The size difference is neglible in reality. Dress around it and you can comfortably conceal most small and compact guns. It just depends where your priorities are put.

Of course if you really want to catch up with things - go to 40;f

[Bubbala]

.

[JKG]

I don't have the experience or knowledge to answer all your questions, but I've had a PM9 for about 1-1/2 to 2 months now. I really wanted a P-11, but none were available locally and I decided to upgrade and get the PM9.

So far:

1. It had some FTF and FTE problems during break-in. Now it seems fine. I have about 650 rounds thru it.

2. The barrel is recalled, but I haven't send it back yet.

3. The top of the slide rusted during a long hike when it was really hot out. It was in an Uncle Mike's IWB holster.

4. The 7 round mag doesn't manually feed easily, but not a big deal.

5. Trigger is awesome.

6. I can hit soda cans at 20 yds. Sometimes in rapidfire.

I got the Kahr thinking that I wouldn't need to fiddle with it, but its not a given. In general the Kahrs seem pretty good out of the box, but there has been some horrendous stories of poor quality. It seems that all those guns got fixed or replaced.

If you want one, I would check the serial number to see if the barrel is recalled, field strip it, and see if you can return/exchange the gun if you have serious problems BEFORE you buy it. If there are problems I honestly feel that Kahr would take care of the problem, but you'll be without the gun. That seems alright for you since you already own a pistol.

The P-11 and PM9 are similar in size, but I think the PM9 trigger is worth the money. If you ever did need to defend yourself, I think a smooth trigger is essential.

I'm glad I got the PM9 instead of the P-11 now.

[cjblackmon]

I hope this can help shed some light for you as well.

1.Investing time with the pistol? All things considered, you want to make sure that you can work out any bugs no matter what CCW that you you're going to carry (Feeding different ammo, and FTF,FTE, etc.) Nothing is 100% certain and if this going to be used as a life preservation tool, it does need to be tested and broke in. Your life depends on it.

2.Concealed Carry vs P3AT? The one thing I like of the Kel Tek is the clips you can get for them that allow you to clip em to your back pocket. Hands down P3AT is going to outperform the Kahr in concealability. But, the next best thing especially in firepower upgrade in small packages (short of going to a Rohrbaugh R9 of coarse) is going to be the Kahr. I carry my PM40 in my front pocket. One of my friends considers his Kel Tec as a "get off me gun" he considers it a close range struggle weapon if he ever drops or loses his main carry.

3.Accuracy? Honestly I can shoot 3 - 3 1/2 inch groups with my PM40. I think it's great. But remember this: statistically 70% of the shots fired in a gunshot more than 17 feet is miss.

4.Warranty? A lot of people on this forum have had a lot of success with the Kahr customer service. Besides...I think their website says 5 year warranty.

5.Worth the money? I love mine! I never shot one before I bought my PM40 either. Everyone is partial to the 9mm cause of lower recoil. Doesn't bother me a bit. I call mine a little cannon. My mindset was this. If I buy it and I don't like it, I know that I can can resell it and get my money back out of it. A lot of people love Kahrs!!!

I hope this helps with your decision making. Good luck!

[Candiru]

I own a Kel-Tec P-32 and a Kahr PM9. More often than not, I find myself carrying the PM9 instead of the P-32 because the P-32's size advantage doesn't overwhelm the PM9's power edge. The PM9 doesn't vanish in a pocket like the P-32, but it's by no means difficult to carry.

As others have noted, the difference in fit and finish is fairly obvious. I took some photos (http://how-i-did-it.org/img/p32) of the two of them side by side, so see for yourself.

[Rusty Shackleford]

My P3AT had a 100% malfunction rate, ejecting the magazine during each shot. I don't know what the cause was, but I could confirm that I was not touching the magazine catch during recoil. Obviously this made it unacceptable for self defense carry. I traded it back to the shop I bought it from (I had traded my P32 toward it) and replaced it with a new P32. Both P32's I've owned worked flawlessly, but they're nowhere near the quality, accuracy or power of the PM9.

My PM9 has been 100% reliable, and is only slightly more bulky/heavy. I often forget that it's in my pocket, but obviously due to the size difference there are going to be some situations where you require so much concealment that the P3AT/P32 would have the edge. This is the only reason I bother keeping the P32.. for those very rare occasions where I can't even comfortably conceal something as small/light as the PM9, but a .32 is better than nothing at all.

[hayseed_40]

If the P32 or P3AT is an inadequate self defense round, when is there a situation where it is needed? I mean that if you feel that a 9 is mininum caliber to be effective, then you should not be in situations where you cannot carry a 9 minimum. It is priorities and dressing around the needed gun. I know that this is not a 100% inclusive statement but something that pops into my head now and then.

The 32 is just a near worthless round in self defense on humans. A thick coat and muscle can hinder effectiveness. The round is also prone to failure in autos due to the rim design. It is just not a good round to carry for defense. The 380 (a hot 380) is much closer to being adequate - but still doesnt cut it when for a few (non-issue) ounces you can get a 9 or even a 40. I think that you are b etter going for a SW 642 with +p 38's instead of the keltecs in 32 or 380.

[cjblackmon]

I think that you are b etter going for a SW 642 with +p 38's instead of the keltecs in 32 or 380. [/B][/QUOTE]

Saw one on Gunbroker for $200.
http://www.gunbrokre.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=37295460

A lot of people have their preferences. There was an Israeli guy in a weapons class here in Tampa, and the instructors went around the room and asked everyone what they were planning on carrying, when they got to him he said "A Berretta Bobcat". Everyone started laughing at him cause it's a tiny little .22. When they were doing their shooting at the range someone who had been heckling him the whole time went and got him a Bobcat, he said "here you go, this ones yours you can shoot this". He asked the insructor do you mind if I shoot this once, Instructor said "by all means" the Israeli Commander picked up the pistol and at 15 yards unloaded it in a split second into two groups (4 in one side and 4 on the other side) perfectly where the eyes would be on the silouette. Everyone quit heckling him.

Point being: If you're going to pack a small caliber, you'd better be damn good with it. Especially if you're limited in caliber and how many rounds you need to stop an attack.

[hayseed_40]

Like real estate, gunfights are about location, location, location.

With that said, placement of a lame caliber is still lame. A 22 will kill you in the right place, no question, but the point of self defense is to stop the threat immediately (not bleed out). You will not do head shots in a self defense situation (or at least very unlikely in a real 3 second gun fight) - you will be more likely to do center mass where the sternum and chest muscles are. You will be shooting through clothing (heavy in the northern states) and muscle and bone, etc.

You can impressed with his marksmanship but not his caliber. On the range it is not that difficult - range is not real life.

[warmrain]

Originally posted by hayseed_40
If the P32 or P3AT is an inadequate self defense round, when is there a situation where it is needed? I mean that if you feel that a 9 is mininum caliber to be effective, then you should not be in situations where you cannot carry a 9 minimum. It is priorities and dressing around the needed gun. I know that this is not a 100% inclusive statement but something that pops into my head now and then.

The 32 is just a near worthless round in self defense on humans. A thick coat and muscle can hinder effectiveness. The round is also prone to failure in autos due to the rim design. It is just not a good round to carry for defense. The 380 (a hot 380) is much closer to being adequate - but still doesnt cut it when for a few (non-issue) ounces you can get a 9 or even a 40. I think that you are b etter going for a SW 642 with +p 38's instead of the keltecs in 32 or 380.

22: Remember, no one likes to be shot, even with a .22
32: A nice thing to have in you pocket if your cannot carry a gun.
Handguun: Most useful for fighting your way back to you (long) gun.

The little pocket guns make good backups (a Bobcat can go into a handcuff carrier) in a variety of carry locations.

There are people who are recoil sensitive and even 9mm is too much for them. A little .22 kit gun handled by an 80 year old arthritic woman may be her best choice.

As far as the .32 being worthless, there have been Grisslys taken down with .22s. It's all about shot placement. No caliber is going to do the job if the bullets are not effectively placed.

Personally I find the 32 ACP very useful. In very hot weather when I would like and feel out of place (besides being very uncomfortable) a NAA or KelTec 32 can be concealed easily. The real value is having the gun for the gunfight.

Remember the primary way to tell if someone is carrying? Do there clothes look out of place, esp. are they unseasanably warm?

Don't make a mistake about my opinion of caliber though. I carry the largest I can conceal in the current season and dress code. That will be from 45 ACP to 32 ACP (with 9mm and 357 in the middle).

You're certainly right about it being all about priorities.

And I like your suggestions about the 342. My wife carries a 342PD (black, full shroud) with night sights. At 10.8 oz. it very close in weight to the KelTec 380. The .38+P loads it is chambered for are more effective than the 380.

IIRC the 342 has been discontinued and has been replaced with a 340; same pistol but chambered in .357 due to scanium in the frame allow.

Best,

[hayseed_40]

I dont like getting stung by bees (my wife says i am a pansy when it comes to pain), but that doesn't make a bee a good defense round;f

[warmrain]

Originally posted by hayseed_40
I dont like getting stung by bees (my wife says i am a pansy when it comes to pain), but that doesn't make a bee a good defense round;f
OK, I get it; and well said ;)
I guess it comes down to personal preference of round, personal ability to handle recoil and preferences over comfort, clothing, etc.

I'm not recoil sensitive and find a 3" 24 oz. 1911 a pleasure to shoot. Likewise the PM9 is a pleasure even with +P. So I carry what I can conceal without dressing inappropriately. That's just me. :)

BTW, the PM40 doesn't bother me, but it's not fun past about 50 rnds.; the 342PD loaded with +P is no fun after 5 or 10...

[hayseed_40]

What 1911 do you have? Have you had any problems with the short barrel?

[warmrain]

Originally posted by hayseed_40
What 1911 do you have? Have you had any problems with the short barrel?
I've had 4. The first was a Colt stainless Officers which was perfect (after I polished the feed ramp) and which I never should have sold.
The last 3 have been Kimber Ultras. The first was a late model external extractor problem that Kimber could not make run from NIB. The last two (the ones I still own) are a 2004 Kimber Ultra CDP II (internal extractor) which was Kimber's replacement (at my request) for the newer version. So much did I enjoy this one that I found another (2002 this time) NIB Ultra CDP II Elite. The former required about 500+ rounds to break-in; the latter was perfect out of the box.

The 3" seem to be more sensitive to extracor tuning than the 4" or 5". I would not hesitate to do a new 5" and am looking seriously at a TLE II in stainless. The 3" have ramped match grade barrels and shoot better than some 5" 1911s. Alloy framed they are only about 24 oz. and carry very easily. I've been very pleased with them. Shot a PD Qual. 486/500 with one.

Since we've just gone off-topic, we should continue on a new thread or via PM or email... Or checkout www.m1911.org and hit the forums hotspot...

[cjblackmon]

Originally posted by hayseed_40
Like real estate, gunfights are about location, location, location.

With that said, placement of a lame caliber is still lame. A 22 will kill you in the right place, no question, but the point of self defense is to stop the threat immediately (not bleed out). You will not do head shots in a self defense situation (or at least very unlikely in a real 3 second gun fight) - you will be more likely to do center mass where the sternum and chest muscles are. You will be shooting through clothing (heavy in the northern states) and muscle and bone, etc.

You can impressed with his marksmanship but not his caliber. On the range it is not that difficult - range is not real life.

I know what you mean! The only point I was trying to make is: if you're definately going to carry something small (.32 or 380), you'd better be good if not great with it. I'm a decent shot, but I still carry a .40!!!!!

Pansy??

[JKG]

I worry more about dogs than people. If an aggressive dog latched onto my leg, or onto my dog, a 22lr or 32acp between the ears would do the trick. Same for an unarmed attacker.

[hayseed_40]

Originally posted by JKG
Same for an unarmed attacker.

You really thinks so??

[JKG]

Hayseed- I think so. But, I'm thinking more of a bum or vagrant than a determined assailant.

Where I live, I don't perceive that many threats. I haven't even applied for my CCW permit yet, but will soon. I have a 9mm PM9, but to me its still HUGE. I could pocket carry it if I was headed to a sketchy neighborhood, but I don't see myself carrying that thing 24/7. I like it for hiking since its so compact and I can carry it open without attracting much attention.

If I lived someplace else, and there were more potential threats, I would pack the PM9. But for an everyday gun for possible loose dogs, bums, etc. a 22lr or better yet .32acp would be perfect for me.

I really don't think its that hard to get the bead on someone's head up close. I'm not a fighter, but I've had my fair share of fist-fights and know for sure I could get the gun pointed at someone's head. A group of assailants is a different story, and I would rather have a G19 than any pocket auto, PM9 included.

Now if I was confronted by someone with a gun drawn, my PM9 won't do me any good anyway. If they want my wallet, they can have it. No cowboy quickdraws for me!

Its all about probable threats and possible threats. Anything is possible and in that case, I would carry a G19 or a rifle! For probable threats in my area, a very small and reliable 22lr or 32acp would be ideal. Now, when I visited S. Florida a few years ago, it seemed everybody was armed and on edge! I'd want more than a .22lr in situations like that. Hopefully S. Florida has mellowed out a bit...

[warmrain]

JKG,

So now I'm curious, do you own a pistol smaller than or of a caliber smaller than the PM9? Do you find that you sometimes carry it?

If not, what are you thinking of?

Thanks,

[JKG]

warmrain, no i only have the PM9 right now. i have to watch my spending right now since my fiancee and i just moved. good thing she's thinking!

i'd like to check out a NAA .32/380 or the Kel-tec p-32/p3. i have never seen one of those in person. i'm hoping that they are siginificantly smaller than the PM9.

i've thought about a NAA mini-revolver in 22lr. that would seem fine for a dog. maybe the phoenix HP22. i've heard/read of them being very reliable. they only cost $100, so i may get one for fun. even if it turns out to be a poor dog gun, it would be great to have a gun that you can drop in your front pocket and plink while hiking, fishing, etc. accuracy probably ain't great, but a long-barreled holster gun ain't convenient either.

btw, i am really starting to like my PM9. i wanted the most size-efficient, reliable and affordable 9mm. i agree with many of you and think the 9mm is really the minimum for a 'standard' self-defense round. i have always shot revolvers, and this is my first auto. when i bought it, i knew that it wouldn't fill all my needs. its a small gun to hold, but still a big brick in pants pockets. i still wanted the pm9 over say a mini-glock just because the PM9 is still pocketable if i needed it to be.

[JKG]

aaroncstevens- sorry about hijacking your thread. you can also consider a MK9 which is an all-metal version of the PM9, but weighs more. some people here have said that it weighs too much, others think its manageable. the MK seems to have a better record than the PM9, but i wouldn't give up on the idea of a polymer gun.

[warmrain]

JKG,

You're right, I think the PM9 is one of the great "if I can only have one - compromise" guns.

Hey, I've even carried the MK9 in pocket (for years). That's why I latched onto the PM9...

The KelTec 32 and 380 are way smaller and lighter than the Kahr PM9, but the KelTec P11 (9mm) is the same weight, and larger in all dimensions then the PM9.

For a quality mini consider the NAA 32 ACP. Also for a mini-mini the Bauer copy of the Browning Pocket 25 id very cool (with the right ammo).

The NAAs chambered in 25NAA and 32NAA are also very attractive, but I'mconcerned over ammo availabilty.

Agreed on the Glocks... The G26 and G27 are great pistols, but too big for my concealability requirements; I can conceal an Officers 1911 as easily.

I put the PM9 into my "not loved, but built for it's indended purpose" catagory. I put the MK9 into the "perfect for it's intended purpose" catagory; cross referenced to "modern day replacement for the Walther PPK" (James Bond, are you listening?!).

[hayseed_40]

JKG - you are no really hijacking his thread. We are discussing the adequacy of a Keltec as a self defense weapon - which is his intention.

Please study gunfight dynamics before making statements of being able to get beads and such. Bad guys are everywhere not just where it seems to be. A gunfight is like a fist fight - bloody, quick, and downright nasty. If you are serious about using a gun to protect your life and those you love - then you must train and practice. Study from an instructor who has background and knowledge to tell you how things works. You must also carry a tool that will get the job done. The P3AT is a "get off me gun" at best. Everywhere has potential threats - watch the news and talk with LEO's you know. The bums must be of a different class where you live - many bums can be very violent and mentally unstable (which makes them very dangerous). They don't "know" they were shot and will keep coming. Also, a growing percantage of viloent crimes are committed by multiple attckers. Anywho, JKG, I do not mean this against you personally - I just think that is naive thinking and will get you killed.

Aaron - scrap the thoughts of the keltec and learn to carry the PM9. In reality there is next to no difference in carry. Again check the 642.

[warmrain]

Originally posted by hayseed_40
...The bums must be of a different class where you live - many bums can be very violent and mentally unstable (which makes them very dangerous). They don't "know" they were shot and will keep coming...
hayseed_40,
I hear your there, loud and clear. I've been attacked by innocent looking bums for just ignoring their plea for money. One case in particular illustrated that the reason this person was on the street was that they were too unstable to function in society.

JKG,
Be careful and stay safe. And some training (if you've had none) goes a long way... I was really surprised how much I got out of it!

Best,

[sx-al]

Only bit I have for y'all is...

I own both an MK and a KT380. I carry both when I can. But most of the time I carry just the MK because you can make it disappear w/ just about any tshirt and short combo.

The KT is something else. I use it both front and back pocket. My back pocket rig looks like a wallet. Not an AOW holster but an in the pocket K&D rig. I practice reaching for my wallet draw to a blue guy at 7 yrds and I got all body shots as close to "full auto" as I can fire. And that is as fast as I can pull that God awful trigger. Thats alot of rounds in a little package. Drawing the MK looks like I'm drawing a gun. The "wait heres my wallet" is just an option. I bulge a bit if I pocket the MK.

I'd like to get the Rohrbaugh R9 to replace the KT as a pocket gun, but ouch man.

[Wilson 17&26]

Originally posted by warmrain
The KelTec 32 and 380 are way smaller and lighter than the Kahr PM9, but the KelTec P11 (9mm) is the same weight, and larger in all dimensions then the PM9.
I think the P-11’s larger size is because with the LEO magazine it will hold 13 rounds of Cor-Bon.

It will be interesting to see how many Kel-Tec bashers whip out their wallets when there is a Tiny 9 for under $250 instead of paying $900 for a Rohrbaugh.

Sure they will whine about having to give it a Fluff & Buff or fire 300 rounds to break it in but buy it they will ;f

[JKG]

Hey, I didn't want to mislead you guys into thinking that my first choice for bipeds is a 22lr or 32acp! You guys must be old if you can't take down or out run a bum! Just teasing you there. Hey I'm no fighting champion, but there's more to confrontations than your gun and training. Street smarts, cool head, and avoidance should come before using a gun.

I don't see bad guys around every corner or frequent bad areas. My main use for a 22lr or 32acp would be for stray/loose dogs while I'm out walking my dog. "If" I was approached by someone aggresive, I would want more than a 22lr or 32acp, but I would use it as a last resort. I'd rather run from a bum than shoot him! The 22lr or 32acp could be carried everyday along with my wallet, keys, etc. I don't see myself carrying the PM9 that much for dogs. I got it more for hikes, and the 'possibility' for pocket carry.

I guess I'm not as worried about being attacked as you guys are, but I appreciate the concern and advise. I do plan to take some 'combat/self-defense' courses here in Oregon. I have also convinced my fiancee to take classes as well. There are a couple schools that are supposed to be very good here.

Here's a serious question I have and I'm not trying to start an argument:

If you are preparing for an attack by multiple aggressors, why carry a short barreled 9mm with only 7 or 8 rounds? Or a 5-6 shot revolver? These are definitely better than a .32acp or .380acp, but not much. All handgun calibers are potentially deadly, but none are 'manstoppers', right?

Does anyone think that one shot from a 9mm is going to reliably stop someone? Two shots? If there's 4 attackers, that 2 shots each. As you said, you could get yourself killed using one of your handguns.

Can you tell me what the logic is here?

Wouldn't a full-size auto with 17-18 rounds make more sense if you're serious about self-defense? Would pepper spray be more effective on a group? Don't many of these 'combat experts' say NOT to carry small autos and that handguns are really ineffective for self-defense?

I wouldn't feel drastically more safe with a 9mm, 40SW, or 45ACP over a .380acp to be honest with you. I'm not saying this about any of you guys, but I think handguns in all calibers instill a false sense of security.

Maybe pepper spray and a .380 is better than another marginal 'manstopper' and no spray. What do you think?

[cjblackmon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKG
[B]Hayseed- I think so. But, I'm thinking more of a bum or vagrant than a determined assailant.

Where I live, I don't perceive that many threats.
If I lived someplace else, and there were more potential threats, I would pack the PM9. .

For probable threats in my area, a very small and reliable 22lr or 32acp would be ideal.

Man...where do you live that you'd have stray dogs, bums and vagrants and not have any real threats?

[cjblackmon]

JKG

I know what would work...how about a bubble?

[RonRC]

I have an MK9, S&W642 and Keltec 3AT.

I love the MK 9 and it is as reliable as any of the handguns I have owned. It is the size of the PM 9, but it is, as others have said, much heavier. As much as I would like to carry it in my pocket, I'm afraid that it will drag my pants down and show plumbers butt. ;G

The 642 is plenty light, but the cylinder bulge precludes carrying it in pants pockets unless it is in my baggier pleated pants.

The Keltec 3AT just plops in my pocket. I am seduced by its convenience and ease of carry. If I recall, it will shoot 380 +p in a hollow point. From what I have read, the 380 +p has a similar stopping power to the 9 mm. The trigger is garbage, and I do not yet have it dependable enough to trust my life to. Maybe some more rounds and fluffs and buffs and it will be trustworthy.

When I carry concealed, it usually is the 642, although I am considering going back to the MK 9.

Ron

[JKG]

stray or loose dogs can be anywhere. they get out of peoples yards. you've never once had a dog run/charge/attack you as a kid riding your bike or while you were taking a walk? there's be an increase in pitbull attacks here and the city or state is trying to outlaw them all together.

portland has a big homeless population, and i think the city chooses not to arrest them. so far they are pretty non-aggressive, but like i said i'm not worried about people so much.

i think my other post was misleading, i'm not worried about bums, except the ones in the government!

[JKG]

cjblackmon,

i misread your post about the dogs, bums, etc.

how are you using this "bubble"?!

are you the one looking for a used MK9? there's one here for $350. i can forward the info if you'd like, but i think the owner was trying to sell it locally.

[hayseed_40]

JKG - carry two spare mags for multiple attackers. Also, if you can carry a second gun. The MK40 is a BUG to my USP40c (48 rds). When the MK40 is primary, I have at least two mags (that is 18rds total). Multiple mags allow reloads - but also keep Mr. Murphy at bay. When ones jams, you use the next. If you cannot avoid a fight - be prepared. Murphy will be there. That is why you must start with the 110% reliable platform. 9mm have a high stopping power. 32 has a miserable stopping rate.

Putting this back to keltec v kahr. I hear the P11 is nice and I would choose that over the P3AT. Looking at JKG's thread on comparing the mini's, there is such a slight difference in size between the P3AT and PM9. There is a good weight difference for pocket carry - but again, dress around the gun. Find a way to carry the PM9 (and extra mag) in a fanny pack, pocket, holster, etc.

Be prepared and be safe.

Does this bubble have kevlar in it?

[cjblackmon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKG

With the "bubble comment", I was just trying to be funny. You know if we lived a plastic bubble (Boy in the Bubble, John Travolta).

I was asking earlier what a used MK elite is going for, because Lakeland Florida is having a huge gun show this weekend. What part of the website are you going to for guns for sale?

[warmrain]

Originally posted by JKG
...i'd like to check out a NAA .32/380 or the Kel-tec p-32/p3. i have never seen one of those in person. i'm hoping that they are siginificantly smaller than the PM9...
It's tiny, look at www.naaminis.com

[warmrain]

Originally posted by sx-al
...I'd like to get the Rohrbaugh R9 to replace the KT as a pocket gun, but ouch man...
I hear that! ;P

But there is at least one thing about it I don't care for (same goes for the Seecamp), even though they are extremely finely engineered and manufactured, they both have heal mag releases that I find difficult. The Seecamp was built to fire only one ammo type and I have read a review that said the R9 was also very sensitive to ammo.

The NAA 32 shoots anything well and has a conventional magazine release. It is the same size as the Seecamp (well almost, it's enough wider inthe slide to not go into a LWS 32 boned holster.

That R9 sure is purdy though, and small. And did I say purdy. And gee, not everyone has one...

[warmrain]

Originally posted by JKG
...Here's a serious question I have and I'm not trying to start an argument:

If you are preparing for an attack by multiple aggressors, why carry a short barreled 9mm with only 7 or 8 rounds? Or a 5-6 shot revolver? These are definitely better than a .32acp or .380acp, but not much. All handgun calibers are potentially deadly, but none are 'manstoppers', right?

Does anyone think that one shot from a 9mm is going to reliably stop someone? Two shots? If there's 4 attackers, that 2 shots each. As you said, you could get yourself killed using one of your handguns.

Can you tell me what the logic is here?

Wouldn't a full-size auto with 17-18 rounds make more sense if you're serious about self-defense? Would pepper spray be more effective on a group? Don't many of these 'combat experts' say NOT to carry small autos and that handguns are really ineffective for self-defense?...
It's like, the same as picking the caliber. It's about shot placement, about can you conceal it, it about compromises and personal preferences.

I cannot conceal my Beretta 92FS. It is long barreled, extremly accurate, carries 15+1, but I cannot hide it. I can hide a MK9 or a 3" 1911 and one or two additional magazines (for a total of 21-23).

I can carry the MK9 or PM9 in the front strong side pants pocket (in the Rosen PSF) and in the off hand front pocket a Milt Sparks pocket magazine holder. Additionally (or alternately) I carry a spare mag in plain sight in a Leatherman tool holder. They may a nice Cordura one (with the label - important IMHO) with a stainless belt clip!

[warmrain]

Originally posted by RonRC
...I love the MK 9 and it is as reliable as any of the handguns I have owned. It is the size of the PM 9, but it is, as others have said, much heavier. As much as I would like to carry it in my pocket, I'm afraid that it will drag my pants down and show plumbers butt. ;G ...
I carried a MK9 in the front pants pocket for years (in a Mitch Rosen PSF). It requires pleated front pants with square cut pockets (the bottom of the pocket is square vs. tapered), pockets cut vertically (e.g. not jeans) and a stout belt. Dockers satisfy all the pants requiremens.

But I recently purchased a PM9 for pocket and wow, how nice. (This was a reaction to carrying my wife's S&W 342PD...)

[warmrain]

JKG,

You cannot anticipate, in the morning when you put the pistol in your pocket, what gun fight you may be faced with later in the day.

Therefore I carry the largest caliber and round count that I can given the circumstances. And I carry one or two spare magazines too if I can.

Also, I like what you said about mental preparedness and awareness (staying in condition yellow, being aware of when to escallate). Look at this correlation of awareness level and cover level:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/editorials/color_codes.asp

(Oh, and I just thought... look at www.mouseguns.com for some small gun info.)

The biggest self defense tool is between your ears. There are others, cell phone (don't forget it has a camera and voice recorder - maybe), pepper spray, knife (learn how to use it), and a flashlight.

[hayseed_40]

You can conceal what you want to conceal. I conceal my usp40c and two mags. Just dress around the gun. If it a priority you will make comprimises.

[JKG]

hey i'm glad you guys took the time to explain it and get the flamethrowers at bay!

hayseed- the big gun with backup seems like a great approach, and seems like the best way to handle the situation I asked about (group of aggressors). no need to reload.

warmrain- that idea of the leatherman pouch is brilliant. 2 guns seems better, but an easy to reach mag seems like a great compromise. i've thought about how i would carry the extra mag since i don't like them in my pocket.

cjblackmon- i knew what you were getting at, but was screwing around myself! actually, i could use a bubble. the MK9 that i saw is on a local portland, OR website. $350 seems like a great price, but he prefers to sell locally. whether he would 'consider' shipping, i don't know, but for the price it might be worth looking into if you don't find anything at the gunshow,

http://www.pdxforsale.com/View_Ad.php?id=187244

thanks for the info guys.

[warmrain]

Originally posted by hayseed_40
You can conceal what you want to conceal. I conceal my usp40c and two mags. Just dress around the gun. If it a priority you will make comprimises.
Of course you are correct. But I choose to not look totally out of place (and to some, like I'm obviously concealing something) in certain situations where it is very important to not even be suspected of carrying.

And don't forget it's easier for some than others. I'm a relatively tall and thin 155# guy, it is a little easier for the more normal builds. Then of course we are talking guys right; how about women...? They have another set of requirements; some of course are by desire, but others cannot be avoided.

[aaroncstevens]

Thanks guys, that was a great response. I may cut my kel-tec loose and pick up the pm9. for pocket carry, it seems to be the best one.
Is there anyone in the philly area that has one that they might let me take a couple of shots with?
Thanks,
Aaron Stevens

[sx-al]

Isn't pepper spray supposed to be way better for dogs? I have been bit but as a kid in a park. I tried to run and climb the fence around the batting area. But that bugger got me. The owner was full of I'm sorrys. I still got 4 silk sutures for the ride. Just a snag in my thigh.

I wouldn't sell the KT. You never know when you may need it. Its just so darn small. I really do think it is quite capable of "stopping" someone. I wouldn't want it rammed into my belly and fired. NO sir.

And if I remember correctly...didn't the FBI stats say 2 at night would be the most likly scenario. Armed and within 7yrds. I know, I know numbers mean jack. I live in Miami. Crime is an everyday thing here. It must suck to live in NY or Chicago, where I couldn't carry. What a crock :soap:

[cjblackmon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sx-al
[B]Isn't pepper spray supposed to be way better for dogs?


My father used to be a mailman in South Carolina. The pepper spray didn't do jack squat to a German Shepard so he started carrying dog bicuits. Those worked but I doub;t anyone would want to carry those around all day in their pocket.

[warmrain]

sx-al,

Agreed on keeping the KT, you never know when you might want to carry it as a BUG and you won't get enough for it to make selling worthwhile IMHO...

Pepper spray is nice to have when someone is in your face and you're not sure what might be in the guys hand, out of sight. A buddy of mine had a knife brought up from crotch to navel. Almost died... It was a street bum pissed off that he wouldn't give money or a smoke.

In your face and beligerant, not enough reason to shot the bastard, but he could kill you. I've had guys stay inches from my face, won't back down. You backup, they're right with you, like dancing.

The pepper spray is good then. Saves a lot of paperwork.

Best,

[sx-al]

Originally posted by warmrain
...Saves a lot of paperwork.

Best,

And you know how nurses feel about paperwork!

The mailman oc is supposed to be weaker than cop oc, isn't it? God I hope so. I was sprayed once and never again. That sucked royal. I don't plan on testing it again. I keep a can on my keys. I hope the bad guy is as much a wimp to it as I was.

It was really bad, I'm not kidding. It was back in '96 and I remember every agonizing second of it. I was at the garden hose for a good 10 mins. ;1

[warmrain]

Originally posted by sx-al
And you know how nurses feel about paperwork!

The mailman oc is supposed to be weaker than cop oc, isn't it? God I hope so. I was sprayed once and never again. That sucked royal. I don't plan on testing it again. I keep a can on my keys. I hope the bad guy is as much a wimp to it as I was.

It was really bad, I'm not kidding. It was back in '96 and I remember every agonizing second of it. I was at the garden hose for a good 10 mins. ;1

Actually, I was thinking of the paperwork you'll have to fill out at the local PD... ;P

"Mace" used to be available to me under license in California decades ago. It was either "CN" or "CS" IIRC; not the same as pepper spray, maybe not even as effective.

Today there are many different pepper sprays available, and some are outright crap. I bought some from Cheaper Than Dirt and sprayed it at a cat on the deck of my sailboat and it just dribbled out a thick tomatoe soup consistancy goo only about 5 feet.

Pepper sprays are measured in SHU (Schoville Heat Units). Most are around 2 million, some are as high as 5.3 million.

Also some have a UV dye in them for later verification and indentification by the PD.

I like the Fox labs stuff. 5.3 SHU and UV dyed. I carry the 2 oz.
http://www.defensedevices.com/foxlafltop2o.html

Hope this helps.

Best,

[baildoc]

As far as OC goes, there are three kinds. Spray(just what it says), fogger (emits a "cloud" of OC), and foam (kind of like that expandable foam in a can). For personal defense we have found that the foam works best as it is easier to direct hits and will defeat eyewear. We use foggers to empty rooms occasionally. Sprays are difficult to direct hits especially in bad light. If you are going to carry OC make sure it is 2 million SHU min. and look into a OC foam as an option. I have used alot of it and that has been my experience.

[cjblackmon]

Originally posted by sx-al
I was sprayed once and never again. That sucked royal. I don't plan on testing it again. I keep a can on my keys. I hope the bad guy is as much a wimp to it as I was.

It was really bad, I'm not kidding. It was back in '96 and I remember every agonizing second of it. I was at the garden hose for a good 10 mins. ;1


Remember sx-al...No means NO!

[sx-al]

It was my ccw instructor guys!! geez

He was an..."extremist".

warmrain
Actually, I was thinking of the paperwork you'll have to fill out at the local PD

I knew that. My humor is not very humorous.~1

I got my stuff from them, too. One for all the gals in the family last Christmas also. Very fast shipping.

[Suburban]

Without going too deep into the details of my Kel Tec Katastophy...
The P-3AT I had disassembled itself on me twice, both times while I was shooting it. First time, the little L-shaped piece that the guide rod slides through fell out of the slide, and disappeared in the brass ahead of the firing line. Second time, the hammer spring broke. Those are just the MAJOR issues I had with the KT.

Sold it to one of the moderators of the KTOG message boards, who did some barrel ramp shortening voodoo on it. Used the proceeds, and a bunch of overtime money, to buy a PM9, and I'm now much happier.

The PM9 is MUCH more accurate, and I'd rather shoot it with +Ps, than a P-3AT with standard pressure loads. It is heavier and bulkier, but I can live with that.

[fjrllc]

It's all about what you can conceal. If I could I'd carry my 7-shot, 6", S&W 686 all the time along with a speedloader. I can practially thread a needle with it at any distance a gunfight might occur, but being 5'8" and 155, it's not going to happen. So the PM9 is my choice. It's easy to conceal, easy to shoot, and accurate. Nothing like the 686, but very accurate for what it is.

Funny story about pepper spray - I used to have a dalmatian and he got a hold of pepper spray from an ex-girlfriend's purse. He bit right through the canister and punched a neat hole with his tooth. The thing was spraying directly into his face and he stood there barking at it the whole time, not even moving out of the line of fire. So I'd say it's not very effective on dogs at all.

Having said that, not sure if I could shoot a dog either. I love them too much. Cats, on the other hand... hehehe