Train to failure or not? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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five-0
09-15-2005, 06:04
I've been thinking about this lately and wanted some thoughts...

Some advocate weight training to muscle failure and others say never train to failure.

How do you train and why?

garythenuke
09-15-2005, 14:54
Work as heavy as you can, and stop one rep short of failure and one set short of failure. This way, is is indeed possible to train five or six or even seven days a week and still be able to recover between workouts. Do not spend two or three hours in the gym. Do three or so sets of three to five reps and do compound exercises like squat, deadlift and clean and jerk. Standing overhead press (one handed and two) is good for shoulders and trunk "core".

Good luck,
Gary

California Jack
09-15-2005, 19:20
I train to failure infrequently, though it's never planned. I try to leave a rep in the tank, but if I'm unsure and it's my last planned rep of the set, sometimes I'll give it a go.If I get it, well, obviously not to failure, but I don't always get 'em.

Sometimes I train singles. If I miss a rep, is that failure?

I don't train negatives much, and never to failure.

How's your training five-0? Are you considering training to failure with club-bells?

Jack

garythenuke
09-15-2005, 19:53
How do those club-bells work? They look neat and I am intrigued by them, I just am not sure I want to delve into a whole new training paradigm. I have heard great things about them. Can you go to failure with them?

five-0
09-16-2005, 06:15
Thanks for the responses guys...

Still lovin' the C-Bells, but I have to be aware of overuse injuries if I don't watch my volume.
You can train to failure with them, but Scott Sonnon (Clubbells) is one that doesn't recommend it...neither does Pavel T. (Kettlebells).

Clubbells are still my only form of weight training since May '04 (other than sledgehammer work, etc.) I feel that my "functional" strength has never been better.
Best

www.rmax.tv

DBradD
10-04-2005, 22:29
Originally posted by five-0
I've been thinking about this lately and wanted some thoughts...

Some advocate weight training to muscle failure and others say never train to failure.

How do you train and why?

I lifted weights religiously from 11 to 22 years old and competed successfully in powerlifting for much of that time.

You are absolutely wasting your freakin' time if you don't train to at least near failure. Well, I guess you get some cardio workout and it's better than sitting home watching TV. You have to give your muscles motivation to grow and/or get stronger. They won't do this voluntarily, but only when they're really convinced that the need is there. If you only lift stuff that they can easily lift, that motivation is not there.

DBD

garythenuke
10-06-2005, 06:27
That sounds like good advice to me. If you do not have a spotter, then your last rep that you can get is obviously not to failure but it is all you can do. I think that is what I meant by "stopping one rep short of failure". If you have a spotter, pretend you don't..

B_Easy
10-21-2005, 08:14
Training to failure is one of the most important aspects of training next to good form.

I've been training for 3 years, 5 days a week. Not once have I felt overtrained. Each bodypart only once a week, legs/abs, chest, back, delts/forearms, bi's/tris superset.

When I didn't train to failure, my gains were weak compared to the gains I've been getting recently.

Started @ 148 lbs...over the summer I was 240. Not a natural 240 but still. :)

It can be done, and training to failure is the way to do it.

five-0
10-21-2005, 14:18
Originally posted by B_Easy

Started @ 148 lbs...over the summer I was 240. Not a natural 240 but still. :)

It can be done, and training to failure is the way to do it.


Sound kinda contradictary...;)

B_Easy
10-21-2005, 14:46
Originally posted by five-0
Sound kinda contradictary...;)

LOL...well I gained a bunch even before I started the Jose Canseco.

California Jack
10-23-2005, 15:58
Training to failure is one of the most important aspects of training next to good form.

and

You are absolutely wasting your freakin' time if you don't train to at least near failure.

Look, just because training to failure helped you two reach your goals, it does NOT mean that failure is the only productive way to train. Read "Power to the People" by Pavel T. Or perhaps watch this video of Dimas (http://media.putfile.com/Ironmind_1993_Dimas) . Watch him finish his set of front squats. Are you telling me he trained to failure? Or are you suggesting that Dimas training was non-productive?

Again, I'm not ripping HIT or any other training method by which you train to failure. I'm just saying that just because you were succesful training to failure, that doesn't make it the only productive method of training.

Jack

garythenuke
10-23-2005, 17:11
B-easy,
I have been out of the loop for quite some time. I am glad I checked in today. One of the big advantages of "Jose Canseco-ing" is that your can thrash youself five days a week, recover, and not feel overtrained.

The last thing in the world I would want to do or want my kids or any of my friends to do is the kind of junk in my blood that will let me gain 140# in three years.

I am hoping that your post was tongue-in-cheek and you are not seriously putting that stuff in your body. My understanding of the origination of the "recreational use" of anabolics was by, among other athletes, prison guards. They started this to keep up with the gorrillas on the inside. I got this from a number of friends of mine who were/are guards at San Quentin.

Funny thing, though, the gorrillas have no access to the steroids, creatine, protein powder, super blue juice, and other other stuff that many folks spend thousands of $$$$ on, yet they are huge. WHat they have is a bunch of weight and a bunch of time. Time to work out intensly, and time to recover. Their food is not even nutritionally packed or scientifically balanced.

My guess is they do not go to total failure either. In that environment one has to leave a little in the tank for survival. Squatting to failure is leaving oneself open to many unpleasant things should a few more gorrillas take a "liking' to disliking to one. Benching to failure is leaving open even more immediate unpleasantness. I think there was a movie like that one time.

Anyway,
Jack has great info and alot of experience. LIsten to him. Train heavy as often as you can, but stop short of failure. Your body will grow better and you will spend less time in the sick bay.
Gary

California Jack
10-23-2005, 19:09
Hi Gary,

Good to hear from you. Anyhow, I don't mean to argue with an ally ;), but I really don't mean to be giving Beasy and DBrad advice. If they get results and enjoy training to failure I say they should go for it. Lots of people do. I'm just trying to say that there is more than one way to skin a cat. That just because they had success with one type of training, that their experience qualifies them to say that all other types of training don't work.

An analogy would be, suppose I lost weight following a low carb plan and then me telling everyone that low carbing is the only way to eat to loose and that calorie restriction diets won't work.

We all know there is more than intensity as far as training goes right? How about volume and frequency. They go along in designing workout programs to meet specific goals. Right?

Gary, did you get a chance to watch that Dimas video. Impressive eh?

Jack

ateamer
10-23-2005, 19:52
My concern is that when training to failure, the rep you fail on is the one where your form will slip and something can get hurt. I have never trained to failure; always leave one rep in the rack. My lifts certainly have never suffered from it.

garythenuke
10-23-2005, 19:53
Hi Jack,
It is good to be back. I do not know for how long, but hopefully off and on for a little while.

I did watch the Dimas video. Man that was amazing. Did you notice he was not using collars? At least none I could see. I know that good weights have very tight tolerances and come closer to holding themselves on the bar, but gee whiz what control!! I actually went out to my platform this afternoon, after watching the video, and did a little snatch work. It really felt good.
My main point of contention with the previous posts had to do with the chemicals he claimed to have injested to give him the edge. There was a guy from North Dakota on this forum who did unbelievable workouts. I am not saying it is impossible to work that hard and still recover, but to be able to pack on 100# in three years is not good. It seemed he even gave credit to the chemicals for his gains.
I agree that there are different strokes for different strokes, and I had less trouble with the training method than I did with the roid references. In my limited experience, training to failure requires a pretty experienced nervous and muscular system. It is not something you can jump right into and expect to keep up for any length of time.

Gary

B_Easy
10-24-2005, 18:03
Originally posted by garythenuke
Hi Jack,
It is good to be back. I do not know for how long, but hopefully off and on for a little while.

I did watch the Dimas video. Man that was amazing. Did you notice he was not using collars? At least none I could see. I know that good weights have very tight tolerances and come closer to holding themselves on the bar, but gee whiz what control!! I actually went out to my platform this afternoon, after watching the video, and did a little snatch work. It really felt good.
My main point of contention with the previous posts had to do with the chemicals he claimed to have injested to give him the edge. There was a guy from North Dakota on this forum who did unbelievable workouts. I am not saying it is impossible to work that hard and still recover, but to be able to pack on 100# in three years is not good. It seemed he even gave credit to the chemicals for his gains.
I agree that there are different strokes for different strokes, and I had less trouble with the training method than I did with the roid references. In my limited experience, training to failure requires a pretty experienced nervous and muscular system. It is not something you can jump right into and expect to keep up for any length of time.

Gary

It's not like I ran two test-enanthate/trenbolone cycles...everything I ran was perfectly legal.

You remember the prohormones that were banned a couple years back?

2 prohormone cycles were all it really took. With proper PCT and ancillaries on-cycle, you can do just fine, legally.

BTW, I train 5 days a week, to failure every day, even when I'm not on the sh-t. And I'm off a LOT more than I'm on.

Then again, I'm pretty young. Some people can train hard and heavy every day, some people alternate week by week, some can only do it once a month.

garythenuke
10-24-2005, 18:28
B-easy,
Age is a wonderful thing. Please enjoy your youth. You apparently have tremendous genes and a terrific work ethic. I am also glad you are off alot more than you are on. Do you still cycle or have you taken youself off completely?

Gary

ateamer
10-24-2005, 20:54
20 years old? Your natural hormones are off the chart - you don't need juice at that age.

California Jack
10-24-2005, 21:08
ateamer makes a good point.

B_Easy
10-24-2005, 23:15
Originally posted by ateamer
20 years old? Your <a *******'text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=31&k=natural%20hormones" ***********="window.status='<a *******'text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=31&k=natural%20hormones" ***********="window.status='natural hormones'; return true;" **********="window.status=''; return true;">natural hormones</a>'; return true;" **********="window.status=''; return true;">natural hormones</a> are off the chart - you don't need juice at that age.

My test levels were at 390 ng/ml before I took anything at all.

Normal for a guy my age is 500-1000.

I'm not gonna try justifying anything, but realize that I don't do this sh-t without proper research.

If you take the right ancillaries, the right PCT, eat right, train right, and sleep well on-cycle, and get bi-weekly physicals, you're at least doing it *right*.

Most OTC drugs are more toxic than prohormones/steroids anyway. The only thing you have to worry about is HPTA, as far as the long run is concerned.

I'm not taking anything at the moment. I save it for the summer time.

No more mass cycles for me though, I'm mostly working on agility and dexterity now for ECQ and Krav Maga.

I'll probably end up running something over the summer, but something very mild.

Anavar has a negligible effect on HPTA, and has VERY low liver toxicity (it's prescribed to patients with cirrhosis, often).

Not everything is going to make you keel over and drop dead the next day, ie: trenbolone. ;g

This'll be the last time I mention this here though...I like this site...don't want to get banned. :)

cop1215
11-05-2005, 02:06
work only 2-3 muscle groups per day...3-4 days per week for one hour or so each session....4 excersizes,3 sets each and reverse pyramid...here is an example...lets say you are working your chest...start with a lightweight bench press warm up for about 8 reps...not to failure but just use a weight that gives you 8 reps comfortably...then you would increase the weight dramatically to an amount that would only allow you to perform 4 reps,not failure but a real struggle to press out 4 reps....do 3 sets of this heavy weight.....after that move to a butterfly and do 3 sets of 8 reps using a weight that is comfortable but difficult to you for 8 reps only....after that move to a chest flye for 3 sets of 12 reps using a weight that is comfortable but difficult for you to do for 12 reps...and for the final excersize do a decline bench for 3 sets of 16 and use a weight that is relatively easy but you can feel the burn as you near the end and pump it fast....your chest workout is then complete for that entire week which provides plenty of recovery time and it really tears down that muscle tissue allowing for growth.by gradually increasing the number of reps and using a slightly easier weight you continuously force fresh oxygenated blood into the muscles which forces them to pump larger,keeps them performing at a higher level during strenuos work and keeps them from being damaged due to lack of oxygen in the blood stream.the idea is to tear down the muscle fibers without damaging them,flood them with protein and oxygen rich blood and then allow them plenty of recovery time.its pretty technical stuff and im not an expert by any means but i know it works.also,take only a 1-2 minute rest between sets.get what im sayin?