looking to get into something, but what? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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EZFLY80
09-16-2005, 08:24
Truth is, I want to learn how to fight. I want to know that if I get into a hand to hand fight that I will be the winner. I am in the army and going to be a cop and think that it would be good practice for both just in case. I realize they teach tactics in the police academy but sometimes it just doesnt work. I have been looking at brazilian jui jitso as it seems like it may bewhat im looking for, and is in my area, but what else should I consider? Seriously, Im not just looking to beat people up but I want to kick some ass if I have to.

Roundeyesamurai
09-16-2005, 18:00
EZFly:

We need a more accurate portrayal of what you're after.

"Kick some ass" isn't much of an indicator; if that's all you want, then just carry around a baseball bat.

Give us an idea of what specific skills you want to learn (try to use as few cliches as possible when responding, that would be very helpful).

EZFLY80
09-16-2005, 18:26
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
EZFly:

We need a more accurate portrayal of what you're after.

"Kick some ass" isn't much of an indicator; if that's all you want, then just carry around a baseball bat.

Give us an idea of what specific skills you want to learn (try to use as few cliches as possible when responding, that would be very helpful).

I guess I was not as clear as I thought that I was. Basically, if I were in a situation where I was fighting for my life I would like to be able to handle myself. Im not talking about learning something like boxing or karate but instead practical fighting, something that you would use if you were in an all out battle for you life not something for sport. Something like what you see on ultimate fighting where you are trying to put your opponent into submission or knock them out to keep them from doing the same to you, but put that into a real world situation where the the winner makes the arrest or subdues a prisoner instead of going home in a box. Please dont think that I just want to go out and beat people up, I just would like to be prepared for whatever situation may arise and this very well might in my future line of work.

Roundeyesamurai
09-16-2005, 20:00
Originally posted by EZFLY80
I guess I was not as clear as I thought that I was. Basically, if I were in a situation where I was fighting for my life I would like to be able to handle myself. Im not talking about learning something like boxing or karate but instead practical fighting, something that you would use if you were in an all out battle for you life not something for sport. Something like what you see on ultimate fighting where you are trying to put your opponent into submission or knock them out to keep them from doing the same to you, but put that into a real world situation where the the winner makes the arrest or subdues a prisoner instead of going home in a box. Please dont think that I just want to go out and beat people up, I just would like to be prepared for whatever situation may arise and this very well might in my future line of work.

Firstly, it should be said (not to be patronizing, but to be thorough) that anything worth learning is worth taking the time to learn.

It should also be said (for the same reason) that the instructor is 100 times more important than the method.

Having said that, the "fighting for your life" as a police officer should involve your firearm, baton, etc. If it's life-and-death, use your gun.

I recently said in another thread on this forum, and will repeat here to save searching, that the essential unarmed skills for a police officer fall into the following criteria:

"1) Training to control persons (to effect arrest);
2) Training to instantaneously react (to fend off a surprise attack, to prevent disarmament, to extricate one's self from a hostile group, etc.);
3) Training for the eventuality that one's firearm may fail, in order to have skills to "fill in the blanks" between the failure of one weapon, and the acquisition of another."

Now, consider the above, and ask yourself what meets these criteria.

Methods which solely teach (or primarily emphasize) striking do not meet criteria 1 (and often do a poor job of 2). Methods which solely teach (or primarily emphasize) grappling do not meet criteria 3 (and often do a poor job of 2).

Giving a recommendation on a particular method is difficult because, as stated above, the method is worthless without a competent instructor. However, one particular instructor I highly recommend (if you're close enough to him) is Luis Gutierrez of the ISR Matrix program. His contact information is on his website, http://www.isrmatrix.org

If that proves unworkable, then my recommendation would be to find a program which emphasizes the above-mentioned skill sets.

mastersix
09-22-2005, 02:39
.

Roundeyesamurai
09-22-2005, 08:39
Originally posted by mastersix
(Insert method) is easy to learn, brutal and simple.

Originally posted by mastersix
Don't listen to nay sayers who want to impress you with their martial arts wisdom.

Originally posted by mastersix
(Insert method) would put you in the able to kick some ass category.

Originally posted by mastersix
Don't listen to puffed up experts, just go check it out.

Originally posted by mastersix
Respectfully,
Master Mike



And here I thought one of the reasons for starting this forum, was to get away from the "Wolfpack"-style advertising hype of other martial arts forums.

Also, "Master Mike"? Someone referring to himself as "Master Mike", while berating other martial artists? ;Q

Sanchin
09-23-2005, 20:14
Doesn't matter what art you take.What matters is how you train.Any art that doesn't employ resistance training in a "live" environment will not be effective.You have to fight to learn how to fight.
First you have to be trained how to fight properly though,this will take alot of time,but it's worth it.I practice Goju.

Sanchin
09-23-2005, 20:24
Originally posted by mastersix
Look for a Krav Maga school. I have a 6th degree in a different martial art, and hold instructor rank in Krav Maga. Krav is easy to learn, brutal and simple. You will also get your ass worked off big time. Don't listen to nay sayers who want to impress you with their martial arts wisdom. Krav Maga and some Brazilian Jiu Jitsu would put you in the able to kick some ass category. Just go check it out and then PM me with your impression... Don't listen to puffed up experts, just go check it out. By the way, I am an ex cop and full time professional martial artist. I have been in more street confrontations with armed and unarmed suspects than I like to remember. I have been shot at and assaulted too many times to list here. "I've been there and done that", so, I know what I'm talking about. Also, numerous law enforcement agencies are officially adopting Krav Maga as their weaponless defense curriculum.
Respectfully,
Master Mike
www.valleyfightclub.com
www.kravmaga.com

True Masters don't call themselves masters.Nor do they put down other styles or arts.
You want a good teacher,give him an ego test.A good teacher will be most humble,not boastful.;z

bunkerbuster
09-23-2005, 21:35
Originally posted by Sanchin
True Masters don't call themselves masters.Nor do they put down other styles or arts.
You want a good teacher,give him an ego test.A good teacher will be most humble,not boastful.;z

+1

Roundeyesamurai
09-24-2005, 12:42
Originally posted by mastersix
I retract my post.

If this had been the sole extent of the retraction, I'd have been more than willing to retract mine as well, and I would have encouraged others to do likewise.

However, it wasn't. So, my response stands.

You brought it upon yourself with your ridiculous, hype-filled post.

In the future, you'd be well-advised to make meaningful, rational posts which contribute to a discussion, as opposed to statement of self-aggrandizement. The members of this subforum are a pretty keen lot, and don't take well to the B.S. found on other Martial Arts/Hand To Hand forums- B.S. which reads very much like your posts.

Originally posted by mastersix
Seems like flame time here...

Oh boo-hoo ;1

Zenhachirou
09-25-2005, 01:47
Cross-train, that's how you turn into a machine. No martial art is the ultimate; that's why you do more than one. I do Thai kickboxing, judo, and Brazilian jiu-jitsu and I've never met a man who struck fear in my heart.

KYtactical22
09-26-2005, 23:24
I'd also reccomend cross-training. I train in Krav Maga and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. The Krav is like kickboxing/self-defense moves and the BJJ takes care of groundwork and grappling. Both build reflexes, balance, hand/eye coord'n, agility and stamina but it's often the amount of heart you have that helps ensure you go home at the end of the day.

bikethief
10-10-2005, 20:20
I second the kickboxing and BJJ combo!

gr81disp
10-11-2005, 20:14
Cannot go wrong with Muay Thai and Bjj.

Sanchin
10-12-2005, 11:28
I do not recommend crosstraining before a good solid base is established in one style. Jumping right into crosstraining will give you sloppy basics in my opinion.

Roundeyesamurai
10-12-2005, 15:08
Originally posted by Sanchin
I do not recommend crosstraining before a good solid base is established in one style. Jumping right into crosstraining will give you sloppy basics in my opinion.

Agreed.

Sanchin
10-13-2005, 17:24
You are wise. ;f

Roundeyesamurai
10-13-2005, 17:58
Originally posted by Sanchin
You are wise. ;f

Thank you!

Refer to my recent exchange with Fedaykin in the Aikido For Law Enforcement thread, I expanded on the same topic there a few days ago.

Skpotamus
10-14-2005, 00:07
Look into a mixed martial arts school/gym. AKA a NHB school. Typical gyms include boxing, Kickboxing and BJJ. Some also offer traditional arts to pay their bills. I would recommend you get into the MMA program and train hard. You'll learn how to fight by working with other fighters.

Boasting aside, Krav Maga (real KM taught properly) is used by a lot of law enforcement agencies for weapons disarms (at least the 4 agencies in my area train and use it).

If you are going to be a police officer though, you might want to look into police defensive tactics programs as you will be heavily restricted to what you can and cannot use during altercations with suspects. Most of what you learn in most styles will be off limits for use.

Talk to your agencies instructor and see what they recommend to you.

Zenhachirou
10-14-2005, 03:46
Originally posted by Sanchin
I do not recommend crosstraining before a good solid base is established in one style. Jumping right into crosstraining will give you sloppy basics in my opinion.

I've studied different styles both one at a time, (TKD) and more than one style at once, (Judo, BJJ, and MT.) And I'd to say that you are very, very wrong. ;) But hey, your mistake, not mine.

Roundeyesamurai
10-14-2005, 07:48
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
I've studied different styles both one at a time, (TKD) and more than one style at once, (Judo, BJJ, and MT.) And I'd to say that you are very, very wrong. ;) But hey, your mistake, not mine.

I agree with Sanchin- and if you did that and don't have a sloppy skill base, then you're very, very lucky. ;) But hey, your lack of experience, not ours.

EDIT: Oops, I almost forgot to add the sarcastic winky-face.

Zenhachirou
10-14-2005, 08:00
Practice vs. theory. I have the practice.

Roundeyesamurai
10-14-2005, 08:18
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
Practice vs. theory. I have the practice.

Yet another sarcastic response- you presume that neither Sanchin nor I have practice? If that is, indeed, your presumption, you are woefully in error.

Sanchin
10-14-2005, 08:20
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
I agree with Sanchin- and if you did that and don't have a sloppy skill base, then you're very, very lucky. ;) But hey, your lack of experience, not ours.

EDIT: Oops, I almost forgot to add the sarcastic winky-face.

+1 !!!
How much practice would that be Z?
I'm sure you think you are doing it right. I think I Roundeye has much more practice/experience than you. I've been practicing goju for over 15yrs,before that I studied TKD for 3yrs. Our school has integrated groundfighting within the last few years through friends,all of which agree with myself and roundeye.;)

Get a good base first.

Look at the ultimate fighter series. Tough guys,amazing athletes, sloppy techniques. Can they beat me? Yes.

Zenhachirou
10-14-2005, 11:16
I've been doing martial arts for 13 years; since I was in Grade 3, since I was 7 years old. It is, shall I say, ingrained in me.

Sanchin: It's very easy to criticize what you see when you've never done it yourself. You probably don't really know what it's like to get in the ring with gloves on and try to perform the techniques on a resisting opponent.

EDIT> Further, a "keeping a strong base" is a good catchphrase for "remaining stagnant." I prefer to keep my training dynamic, and I know about 50 other people in my club who think the same. It keeps your brain and body working on all wavelengths. I'm going to estimate that your gyms haven't produced any PRIDE FC-quality fighters. Mine has. I'll have to take our professional fighters' opinions over that of yours.

Roundeyesamurai
10-14-2005, 11:35
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
I've been doing martial arts for 13 years; since I was in Grade 3, since I was 7 years old. It is, shall I say, ingrained in me.

Sanchin: It's very easy to criticize what you see when you've never done it yourself. You probably don't really know what it's like to get in the ring with gloves on and try to perform the techniques on a resisting opponent.

EDIT> Further, a "keeping a strong base" is a good catchphrase for "remaining stagnant." I prefer to keep my training dynamic, and I know about 50 other people in my club who think the same. It keeps your brain and body working on all wavelengths. I'm going to estimate that your gyms haven't produced any PRIDE FC-quality fighters. Mine has. I'll have to take our professional fighters' opinions over that of yours.

I'm not Sanchin, but since he and I agree on this subject, I'll comment:

I can testify that I've worked out with a number of the type of fighters you mention. I can also testify that some of the top-name fighters of the type you mention are friends of mine, and we exchange training ideas. None of them regards me as "stagnant" or "undynamic" for suggesting that it's a good idea to train one platform at a time- rather they agree, since they train their MMA methods as one platform.

The difference between "Mixed Martial Arts" and "Haphazard Hodge-Podge" is exactly that- the former is a unified method derived from multiple sources, where the latter is a random collection of various methods, taught as seperate methods. One is concentrated on the purpose of combat, whereas the other is concentrated on remembering all of the technical information of various methods.

One is actual development, whereas the other is a jumble of classical messes.

Zenhachirou, I also must say that I am puzzled by your statements and your behavior in this thread. This is the first time that I've seen you be sarcastic or rude, and this is also the first time I've seen you make amateurish statements. I'm frankly surprised by this turn of events, and I hope to see you rectify it in the future.

mhill
10-14-2005, 12:36
I usually don't give a specific recommendation. I also don't like to bash styles. However if you are looking to protect yourself in a real fight I would recommend steering clear of any form of TKD. TKD in general does not punch to the face and this causes bad habits to form which will put you down in a real fight.

I would recommend a good instructor that teaches in real world situations. Watching their green, brown, black belts spar and this will give you an indication to how well they train for the real world. If they don't punch to the face or grab for take downs this would be a good indicator. Watch that they use good gear when they spar. Watch the level of contact that they use when they spar.

My Opinion Only.

Roundeyesamurai
10-14-2005, 12:43
I would agree for the most part with MHill, but on the other hand, I have met the occasional TKD instructor who was pretty decent when it came to reality.

Remember also, that many Krav Maga classes are held in TKD schools, because of an association between KM and TKD political bodies. I don't know if this is good for TKD or bad for KM (or both), but it should make one weary about KM training as well.

mhill
10-14-2005, 14:11
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
I would agree for the most part with MHill, but on the other hand, I have met the occasional TKD instructor who was pretty decent when it came to reality.


Domo Arigato. I also have met some great TKD instructors. Hell I was one of them for a while. My point is not to start here. TKD people have the prettiest kicks I've ever seen. They'd be damn effective if they could ever land one.

Zenhachirou
10-14-2005, 14:31
Zenhachirou, I also must say that I am puzzled by your statements and your behavior in this thread. This is the first time that I've seen you be sarcastic or rude, and this is also the first time I've seen you make amateurish statements. I'm frankly surprised by this turn of events, and I hope to see you rectify it in the future.

I'm very aware of this, yeah. I do apologize... I recently had a confrontation over a topic very similar to this and I suppose I am still in my "aggro" mode, as it were.

Sanchin
10-14-2005, 14:59
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
I've been doing martial arts for 13 years; since I was in Grade 3, since I was 7 years old. It is, shall I say, ingrained in me.

Sanchin: It's very easy to criticize what you see when you've never done it yourself. You probably don't really know what it's like to get in the ring with gloves on and try to perform the techniques on a resisting opponent.

EDIT> Further, a "keeping a strong base" is a good catchphrase for "remaining stagnant." I prefer to keep my training dynamic, and I know about 50 other people in my club who think the same. It keeps your brain and body working on all wavelengths. I'm going to estimate that your gyms haven't produced any PRIDE FC-quality fighters. Mine has. I'll have to take our professional fighters' opinions over that of yours.

Yeah,those first few years before you hit puberty were the quality years,right?

I don't get into rings,but I know what it's like to work with resisting opponents,that's a tired argument. I don't care to do any ufc type fighting,I'm too smart for that.;)

Our school doesn't try to turn out the next octagon champion,don't care to.We are a kata based style and we like it that way.Don't suppose you like to do kata do you? Let me guess,it's a waste of time? Oh well,to each his/her own. I prefer to have an "integrated" school. Able to teach good self defence at all ranges.
I just don't agree with you as far as jumping into cross training early.
BTW, you guys can congratulate me! My cancer is in remission and I'll be back to training in a few months!!
;a

Zenhachirou
10-14-2005, 16:04
Originally posted by Sanchin
Yeah,those first few years before you hit puberty were the quality years,right?

I don't get into rings,but I know what it's like to work with resisting opponents,that's a tired argument. I don't care to do any ufc type fighting,I'm too smart for that.;)

Our school doesn't try to turn out the next octagon champion,don't care to.We are a kata based style and we like it that way.Don't suppose you like to do kata do you? Let me guess,it's a waste of time? Oh well,to each his/her own. I prefer to have an "integrated" school. Able to teach good self defence at all ranges.
I just don't agree with you as far as jumping into cross training early.
BTW, you guys can congratulate me! My cancer is in remission and I'll be back to training in a few months!!
;a

Dude, that was brutal. You're "too smart" for mixed martial arts? I'm too smart to be bothering with you if that's the case.

Yeah, the pre-puberty years were actually quite valuable in learning how useless kata was. There's a TKD red belt hanging in my closet right now, I've done more than enough katas to know that all they do is win you gold medals at Kata competitions. ;)

My buddy does Dim-Mak and doesn't do any katas. I bet you love dim-mak, don't you? He's a dim-mak master. Once he got attacked by a herd of cattle led by a mighty panda warrior lord and he annihilated every last one of them with his dim-maks. They call him the "Dim Mak Daddy." "Return of the Mak?" No no, wait... "The Empire Strikes Mak." And he doesn't do katas.

Roundeyesamurai
10-14-2005, 17:01
Originally posted by Sanchin
My cancer is in remission and I'll be back to training in a few months!!

Good to hear it, congrats!

Sanchin
10-14-2005, 17:50
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
Good to hear it, congrats!

Thankyou!

Z,
There's no point in going into the value of kata with you here or anything else we've touched on. We can agree that we both disagree. Happy training,stay safe.

Edit- Just for clarity, when I said "I'm too smart" I meant that I know I would get killed,not that they are stupid.

Slurpie
10-16-2005, 12:07
Ezfly, May I ask a couple of practical questions? I am Navy O-4 in the middle of a major career milestone assignment and had to weigh more than just which art most fit my training objectives.

You said you are in the Army. Where are you stationed? (Rhetorical question). What's available in the local area? Because I am stationed in a somewhat remote area where I didn't have a whole lot options available to me. So, I ended up at the Judo Club on base.

Are there any programs available on base? We have a Karate-style (MMA) club and a judo club available for free on base.

What's your duty/training schedule like? Can you make regularly scheduled practices?

Do you have any previous martial arts experience? Do you want to continue in that art or start something new?

Are you married? For my better half, 3 practice nights per week are about all she can stand. We do have responsibilities outside the dojo that need to be balanced. Do you have wife/kids that might want to participate as well? Make it a family experience? (I gather from your post that you are a single soldier...that makes it easier!)

Look for something that you can practice while deployed. Of course, you can usually condition yourself deployed (running, lifting, pushups etc.). Do you need a lot of exotic equipment to practice this art that might not be available to you in the sandbox?

What kind of atmosphere do you learn best in? A highly competitive/high-testosterone environment or a more cooperative/learning-oriented environment?

Basically, how much time and money can you spend? I know that for myself, I had to consider these practical realities. On base Judo Club fit the bill for me.

Cheers, Slurpie