Brand new to 1911's, looking to get a cheapy for starters...

[turbodude26]

Any suggestions???

[Glolt20-91]

I belong to a M1911 forum and some of the members there are happy with their Chinese made Norincos. Charles Daly M1911s are more expensive, a little over $400. Owners of both like them and they seem to be a good alternative to the Colt, S&W and Springfield groups. For the price, Kimbers seem to be having a few problems - plus they don't support organized shooting sports.

There are other choices and you may want to e-mail some of the owners and get the good aspects with the bad. :)

Adios,
Bob

[paul45]

May I suggest you re-think your position. If you are looking for a "cheapy"....that is exactly what you are going to get... a POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker.

[chainshaw]

Springfield Armory GI Mil-Spec. Forged frame and slide. Very nice base gun that you could customize later, if you choose to. $430 brand new. I paid $320 for a very slightly used one.

Stay away from Armscor, Charles Daily, Rock Island (don't flame me). They appear nice, but the metal is much softer than the bigger name 1911s.

[aglocker1911]

You need to start thinking "low priced" and forget "cheapy". Yes, the Springfield GI series are a very nice 1911 for a good price. And don't ignore the used market. Thee are a lot of good bargains to be found if you look around. Here again, I would stay with a recognized "big name" brand and avoid a "too good to be true" low price on a model you've never heard of, ESPECIALLY if the shop owner is telling you it's "just as good as a Colt, just no one has ever heard of it". And don't forget the heart of any 1911 is a top quality magazine. Good luck.

[nemesis]

Originally posted by chainshaw
Springfield Armory GI Mil-Spec. Forged frame and slide. Very nice base gun that you could customize later, if you choose to. $430 brand new. I paid $320 for a very slightly used one.

Stay away from Armscor, Charles Daily, Rock Island (don't flame me). They appear nice, but the metal is much softer than the bigger name 1911s.

I agree with you on the SA GI... they are great deals for the money. However, there is noting wrong with Armscors or RIAs either. I really don't know why you think the "Soft" metal is anything of significance. One could do a quick search on 1911forums and you could find a overwhelming majority of happy RIA owners, including myself. They aren't as good as base gun for a custom as the SA but it does what it was intended to do quite well, and that is go bang everytime and it is accurate enough for most people. Unless you need to put rounds in a quarter at 25yds, RIAs are some best deals out there IMO.

Someone suggested a Norinco too, they are also excellent 1911s for the money in my experiences.


If you are looking for a "cheapy"....that is exactly what you are going to get... a POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker.

I really wouldn't listen to rhetoric like this I have more than a few "foreign made clunkers" that will outperform my old Kimber or my Colt anyday of the week. There are a few "American" 1911 companies that have some work to do in the customer service and QC department.

[telcom911]

Kimber Becomes Largest Donor In U.S.A. Shooting Team History



May 12, 2004– Kimber® Vice President of Marketing & Sales Dwight Van Brunt (center) presents to the U.S.A. Shooting Team the fifth $50,000 check for a $250,00 total contribution.
Yonkers, New York, May 12, 2004 – At the 2004 NRA Show, Kimber® presented a $50,000 check to the U.S.A. Shooting Team, another installment in a successful partnership agreement based on sales of Kimber Team Match II™ .45 ACP pistols. This check increases Kimber’s contribution total to $250,000, the largest donation by a firearms company in U.S.A. Shooting Team History.

To prepare for the 2004 Olympics, the U.S.A. Shooting Pistol Team is competing with pro shooters on the action shooting circuit. Accustomed to shooting the world’s most accurate firearms they chose Kimber to build their competition pistols. Kimber is offering the same model – the Team Match II .45 ACP – to the public. Kimber will also donate $100 from the sale of each Team Match II to the Team. This $250,000 donation is the result of current sales and additional contributions will follow.

The Team Match II has a stainless steel slide and frame, along with the new, innovative Kimber Tactical Extractor with loaded chamber indicator. Custom features include 30 lines-per-inch front strap checkering and special red, white and blue U.S.A. Shooting Team logo grips. Team Match II pistols are currently available at over 1,850 Kimber Master Dealer

[brownie]

"One could do a quick search on 1911forums and you could find a overwhelming majority of happy RIA owners, including myself."

Include me as another satisfied RIA owner. I paid 300.00 for mine, it has run b*lls to the wall for 1500 rds with NO isssues.

As for the soft metal statement, mine does't appear to be wearing on the slide or frame rails any more than expected from one of my Colts, SA's would during their breakin periods.

I've owned many Colt ww1, ww2, milspecs; SA milspecs, a Systema colt, having put 10's of thousands of rounds through them over 30 years that I would be aware of any problems with unusual "wearing" due to this soft metal issue. I see no signs of that on the RIA I own.

Is it my favorite 45? No, my SA milpsec that has 30K through it holds that distinction. Owned since 87, NIB, and it has been ultra reliable until just this year when it needed a nbew sear, trigger, hammer, and extractor due to "wear" of those parts at that round count.

I just recently had a parts gun built for me with a SAM frame [ made in the Phillipines ], a Brazilian no marking slide and a parts kit from Numrich arms to throw it together.

The frame was 75.00, the slide and parts kit was roughly 190.00. These items were given to me as a christmas present last year. I had the frame duracoated in olive drab, the parts and slide duracoated in black.

It cost nothing to have it coated [ we swapped the finishes for 6 hours of knife training ], and 240.00 to have it put together and a reliability job for it from Nelson Ford in N. Phoenix, Az.

Oh yes, the slide dovetails for the sights were filled in before it was duracoated. This is my new training 45 when I have students who are learning the QK pointshooting system I train others in.

Pics included for those interested in the 45 that cost me a total of $240. If one were to do this the actual cost would have been about $605.00.

This 45 runs great with a frame made at the same location in the Phillipines as the RIA. The brazilian slide probably is no better or worse than that of the RIA as well.

Why the story of the parts built gun? To show that the RIA for 300.00 is a bargain and is as reliable as many Colts I've owned over the years.

Inexpensive 45's like the RIA will always be denigrated by those purists who think if it doesn't carry the rampart pony on it, it is junk, with the few exceptions of those like milspec SA's.

Keep in mind that when the Norincos first arrived on these shores, people made the same comments about them as they do now about the RIA's.

What did we discover over time with the Norinco's? That they are dependable, cost effective 45's that can be relied on. Now the are getting cost prohibitive due to the importation issues, but history has shown that inexpensive 45's are not necessarily junk automatically.

I'd own an RIA long before I ever bought a Kimber, no matter what people say about Kimbers. I'd also be saving a lot of money and getting a gun that runs as well as the Kimber or other higher dollar 45's.

Robin Brown

[paul45]

(quote)"I really wouldn't listen to rhetoric like this I have more than a few "foreign made clunkers" that will outperform my old Kimber or my Colt anyday of the week. There are a few "American" 1911 companies that have some work to do in the customer service and QC department".(quote)..... I stand by what I say. If you buy crap...you wind up with crap with no re-sale value. Thats not rhetoric, thats my opinion after 33 years of messing around with 1911"s.(bought my first 1911, a Remington Rand, at 17...hooked ever since)

[JesS2K]

Cheappy!?

That could do more harm than good. If you ended up with a ****** 1911 that is jam, not feed, not eject regularly, you'll hate it forever.

Start around $1,000 range. They're not great, but hopefully wont give you (much of)a wrong idea of what awesome 1911 can do.




***Edited for Rules Violation***

Do not bypass the language filter by inserting symbols into words.

Eddie C.

[nemesis]

Originally posted by paul45
I stand by what I say. If you buy crap...you wind up with crap with no re-sale value. Thats not rhetoric, thats my opinion after 33 years of messing around with 1911"s.(bought my first 1911, a Remington Rand, at 17...hooked ever since) [/B]

Stand by it all you like and it will be your little secret. Hate to break it to you but RIAs and Norincos are great weapons....so are many other "foreign made clunkers" including Springfield's GI Mil-spec.



Also from another comment, I also disagree that you have to spend $1k to have a nice 1911. There are a number of good 1911s from S&W, SA, Kimber etc...

[Colt-aholic]

the SA gi is a good starter 1911. Save up money and add what you want on it (like a sunk in BoMar).

[brownie]

I stand by what I say. If you buy crap...you wind up with crap with no re-sale value. Thats not rhetoric, thats my opinion after 33 years of messing around with 1911"s.(bought my first 1911, a Remington Rand, at 17...hooked ever since)

Your comments ASSume that an RIA is "crap" to start with. If I took your statement seriously as a new shooter to the 1911 platform, I would never have bought another Colt after 1973 when I bought a gov model with the pony on it that was a piece of sh^t in the reliability dept.

Yet, comapred to that experience with the RIA which has not bobbled a round for 1500 or so, the Colt would be deemed a piece of [ you know what ].

Do I sing the praises of the RIA over any other maker of 1911's? No, not really.

But I also do not denigrate them because they only cost me 300.00 either.

Oh, btw-- I have been bangin 45 1911 platforms since 1970 when in the USMC, thats 25 years. Not sure why you thought you needed to include your years behind one, but that alone does not make your opinion any more valid or useless.

Just a thought for you to consider.

Robin Brown

[freepatriot]

Originally posted by brownie
Oh, btw-- I have been bangin 45 1911 platforms since 1970 when in the USMC, thats 25 years.



It's 35.

[brownie]

Holy crap,

I'm that old? That means I'm really old, not just old :cool:

Scott, good pickup sir.

Robin Brown

[freepatriot]

Originally posted by brownie
Holy crap,

I'm that old? That means I'm really old, not just old :cool:

Scott, good pickup sir.

Robin Brown



<---born in 1970.


Was an easy catch for me, Brownie. :):cool:

[paul45]

Its funny to me that I never refered to any 1911 by name, except for "foreign made". Boy, you guys sure are defensive and ASSume I am talking about specific 1911s that you have named. Here is my thought...I bought the best house I could afford. I bought the best car for my family I could afford. I get the highest rated diamond jewelry I can afford for my wife. I learned to get the best 1911s I can afford...(yes, I have preferences). If you guys want the 1911s that you named to be the best you can afford....more power to you,and I respect your preferences. My standards possibly might be higher than yours.....my apologies if you find that insulting. oh...BTW...my reference to the number of years I have liked 1911s was maybe put some substance in my points....kinda like some posters feel the need to refer to themselves as "Quick Kill Instr"...~rf

[brownie]

"If you are looking for a "cheapy"....that is exactly what you are going to get... a POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker."

then this:

"Its funny to me that I never refered to any 1911 by name, except for "foreign made". Boy, you guys sure are defensive and ASSume I am talking about specific 1911s that yuo have named."

In my opinion you were very specific when you said "a POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker". That would include any "foreign made" 1911, whether it was "named" by you or not.

That would naturally include ALL "POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker"'s where YOU were not specific in naming one or another.

There was no ASSumption on anyones part based on your original post as by not specifically mentioning one or two " POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker", by extrapolation you included ALL that fit that criteria of "POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker".

Then this:
"If you guys want the 1911s that you named to be the best you can afford....more power to you"

If you were talking to me when you stated the above, if you go back and reread my reply you notice I never stated what 1911 platform/makes I own. You'll also note that I never mentioned which 1911 platform/make I carry for self defense [ hint, it is not the RIA ]. But again you apparently ASSumed that an RIA was "the best you can afford" which of course is in error in your second mistaken ASSumption.




Robin Brown

[nemesis]

Its funny to me that I never refered to any 1911 by name, except for "foreign made".

You made a blanket statement so you didn't have to.

Here is my thought...I bought the best house I could afford. I bought the best car for my family I could afford. I get the highest rated diamond jewelry I can afford for my wife. I learned to get the best 1911s I can afford...(yes, I have preferences).

Me too.... I drive a Mercedes, but a Honda will get me from A to B if I needed it to. I have expensive 1911s and I have cheap 1911s, and I love them all.

If you guys want the 1911s that you named to be the best you can afford....more power to you,and I respect your preferences. My standards possibly might be higher than yours.

Didn't say this either.... it was assumed by yourself that they were junk or a POS because they are "foreign made clunkers." Point is that being foreign made has NOTHING to do with the reliability of a firearm. Still think so?? You might want to argue with all the happy Springfield GI Mil-spec owners, Sig Sauer owners, H&K owners etc.....

I wouldn't say that your standards are higher, only that you need to spend a certain amount or have to buy "American" to feel better about your firearm. More of an insecurity than anything....

BTW...my reference to the number of years I have liked 1911s was maybe put some substance in my points....

It didn't work.

[brownie]

"BTW...my reference to the number of years I have liked 1911s was maybe put some substance in my points....kinda like some posters feel the need to refer to themselves as "Quick Kill Instr".."

Thats how I make money, using 1911's to train people in non sighted shooting with a system that has proven itself time and time again.;)

I used to make my money carrying two of them at times for over 20 years. I know a little about the weapon myself, that didn't stop me from buying an RIA as a range gun though. It runs as well as any Colt I've owned, and thats the reason I buy 1911's.;f

My latest training 1911's frame is made in the Phillipines, the slide in Brazil. It runs flawlessly all day, but I'm not sure it meets your description of "a POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker."

Here's a pic of the trainer with no sights.

Robin Brown

[hatidua]

I've never regretted saving a while longer to buy something a bit better. I'm not thinking of any manufacturer in specific and not even specifically about guns. Just a thought-

[brownie]

hatidua:

The day I shelled out 300.00 + tax for the RIA I had 3x that amount and could have bought another Colt, SA, or Kimber just as easily.

I researched the RIA's from others experiences, it was to be a range gun for practice and to hand off to others if necessary during training.

I didn't buy it cause thats all I could afford. In fact I sold 6K worth of Colt 1911's from 1917-1943's last year. I've owned enough of that platform to understand what I need to use for defense and what I can use on the range as long as they both run.

The RIA runs well, mag sensitive but I've had other name brands that had that issue as well.

Robin Brown

[nemesis]

Originally posted by hatidua
I've never regretted saving a while longer to buy something a bit better. I'm not thinking of any manufacturer in specific and not even specifically about guns. Just a thought-

I never have either.... and on the other side of the coin I've never regretted buying something with more bang for the buck.

[turbodude26]

did i mention this was just for range use and for fun. I am not gonna use this for carry or even a night stand gun. Its going to go into the safe and shot at teh range. i just heard so much about the 1911, and then shot one at the range and love the light trigger and single stack grip.

[chainshaw]

Originally posted by nemesis
They aren't as good as base gun for a custom as the SA but it does what it was intended to do quite well, and that is go bang everytime and it is accurate enough for most people. Unless you need to put rounds in a quarter at 25yds, RIAs are some best deals out there IMO.

Someone suggested a Norinco too, they are also excellent 1911s for the money in my experiences.


I should have been more clear. The soft metal statement was exactly as you said. If you want to do any custom work later on, they are not really what you should buy. I have shot the RIA guns and they are a good deal for what you get. I would prefer to spend the extra $100 and get the Springfield.

The Norincos are hard to find and are getting more expensive, because of the importation ban on Norinco. If you can find one for $300 - $400, buy it.

Foreign made really does not make a difference. SA is made by IMBEL in Brazil. It is about quality, not place of manufacture. Buy what you can afford and shoot it. Who am I to ridicule someone for wanting to enjoy the shooting sports?

[nemesis]

Chainsaw I agree with you 100%, I bought a RIA to learn some gunsmithing or more likely.... butchering, and to have fun shooting ;f

[erict]

i have 3 1911 style pistols. one is a firestorm .45 it cost around $275, it is pretty accurate and has an avg. finish (600 rnds. no problems). i also have a springfield mil spec, it will run you in the $430 range (300 rnds. no prob.). i recently bought a carry gun, it is an sti ls40 that i bought used for $575, it is not .45 but it is a 1911 style pistol. i haven't shot it enough to tell you about reliability but it is a wonderful shooter. i've shot many other brands as well. if i had to rate the best one for the price it would be the springfield hands down. for $430 you won't find a better deal IMO.
EDIT: i haven't shot a RIA but from previous posts it seems to be widely accepted and sounds like a good deal.

[brownie]

erict:
"if i had to rate the best one for the price it would be the springfield hands down. for $430 you won't find a better deal IMO."

I'll have to agree with that statement above. I've had a milspec 45 SA since 84-85 that has run with the best of them for 30K. I recently had Nelson Ford of N Phoenix rebuild it with new sear, hammer, trigger, extractor and spring kit.

It was used in competition for 5 years, shot as a training/range gun for that long. Now it has become my carry piece after the rehab. and I have more confidence in that gun than any of the dozen or so 45's I've ever owned.

Utter confidence in the SA milspec through 20 years of hard use with only a few feed issues due at times to mags. Thats easily corrected with new mags, they were getting as old as the gun:cool:

The RIA is now the range gun and it works as well.

Robin Brown

[Steve7]

Get a Springfield GI model.

My first 1911 was an AMT. I got it in the early 90's because I wanted stainless steel and it was $125 cheaper than SA. After about 2500 rds the sear wore and the hammer would follow the slide down and fire the gun. I had the AMT repaired and sold it.

I bought standard Springfield ($425). I have fired thousands of rounds through the SA with no problem.

If you intend to actually shoot the gun a lot, don't get the least expensive gun you can find. Cheap guns will cost you more in the end, because you either pay to try and to make the cheap gun function properly or you have to sell the cheap gun (usually at loss) and buy one that works.

Go to see what people are shooting at matches. An IDPA type match will have many carry guns and you can get a feel for the ones that fuction properly.

[DEUCE-DOBE]

While I am a newbie to the 1911 (just bought my first one yesterday), I've researched these things for over a year, reading reviews, scouring various boards, test firing, talking to those in the know, etc. etc. etc. Basically, my purchase was over reasearched.

There are a few things in this world you do NOT want to 'skimp' on... a weapon is one of them (if it will be used for defense). You can surely get a good gun for $500, but stick with trusted and tested brands.

Not only will you most likely get the best weapon for the $$$, but you will also have the company's reputation and warranty to back up your purchase. Peace of mind.

Its almost like placing a bet... you put your $$$ where the odds are the best... if you're smart.

[quantico]

I would suggest that the springfield mil spec is a great and not high dollar 1911... the GI guns also work fine... but the sights are not great.. and having a beavertail is a nice touch as well. I also have had good luck with my norinco ... which started a budget gun around 420 dollars... however the sights were not easy to shoot with, and the gun did not shoot where it was aimed..

The norinco started with mostly decent parts and the frame and slide are of great metal quality.. I have since made mine more useable... but the cost was not in keeping with a budget 1911.

Another great 1911 on a budget is a colt 1991A1 .... and it will be suitable for upgrades and investing money in should you choose to do so...

http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/fbigovusa/nor2.jpg


http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/fbigovusa/nor4.jpg


http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/fbigovusa/nor6.jpg

[Steve7]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by quantico
[B]
The norinco started with mostly decent parts and the frame and slide are of great metal quality.. I have since made mine more useable... but the cost was not in keeping with a budget 1911.


I ended up modifing my basic model SA too. It came with a commander hammer. I added the following:
Trigger job $35
King beavertail saftey $30
Novak rear sight $35

With the gun my total cost was $525. I didn't do everything at once, but now that I am finished with it I am very pleased with my 1911

[spober]

450 like new used for a 1991, new or old roll marks,or 600 nib .400 for a CD just dont make sence to me.

[Steve7]

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=434792

SA Loaded 1911 for $525

[nemesis]

Originally posted by spober
450 like new used for a 1991, new or old roll marks,or 600 nib .400 for a CD just dont make sence to me.

I'll pass on the Series 80 bs....doesn't make SENSE to me.

[brownie]

Steve7:

One of my students had the same gun new, never fired for the last Saturdays QK class.

After 300-350 rds and 3 hours, his hand was getting chewed pretty good from the lower edges of the grip safety, which had not been softened any.

It was unpleasant after 500 rds and he switched to a new gun.

Robin Brown

[M1Garand]

I vote for Springfield Armory Mil-Spec 1911 as a good "cheap" starter 1911. You can always upgrade it later. That is the advantage of 1911.

[Steve7]

brownie

I had installed a King Gun Works beavertail on my SA that works great; no sharp edges. The gun did have some sharp edges in other spots that I smoothed off with a ceramic stone then touched up the blueing.

Sharp edges are a legitimate complaint.

As for the link to the SA loaded I posted I just noticed the posting in the trading area and linked it. I have not seen that particular gun.

I personally wouldn't want to take a brand new gun to a class, just to avoid gun related problems like you mentioned.

[brownie]

Steve7:

The guy had no issues with it all day, and as I would expect with my own experiences with SA's.

You are right though, a training event is not the best place to break in a new gun.

Robin Brown

[quantico]

Originally posted by brownie


One of my students had the same gun new, never fired for the last Saturdays QK class.

After 300-350 rds and 3 hours, his hand was getting chewed pretty good from the lower edges of the grip safety, which had not been softened any.

It was unpleasant after 500 rds and he switched to a new gun.



Yikes, I would never take a new in box gun to a gun skills class... I would at least want several 150 round days to get it broken in... and get the feel of the trigger.. My springfield loaded longslide purchased several years ago had some very nasty sharp edges... I was able to fix them by stoning them down and since the gun was stainless... no finish was damaged..


I have shot 1200 - 1500 rounds in a day on several occasions.. and having bandages and some tape really helps keep your hands in tact..

I am now into custom 1911's and have a couple that I have built myself... one priority is a smooth gun that can be run without tearing up your hand... getting all sharp edges cleaned up and very smoothed up makes a huge difference in how you can "bond" to the gun and feel it is a part of your body..... one thing you can say about my gun selections is that they are all comfortable to shoot a lot.... you don't get skills when the gun is in storage.. :)

smooth IPSC gun by Don Williams:
http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/fbigovusa/colt2.jpg

smooth Colt custom by me:
http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/fbigovusa/colt1.jpg


smooth Ed Brown :

http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/fbigovusa/execcarry1.jpg


smooth Norinco by me :

http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/fbigovusa/nor1.jpg

[brownie]

quantico:

Nice pieces sir.

Robin Brown

[larry starling]

"If you are looking for a "cheapy"....that is exactly what you are going to get... a POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker." I for one tend to agree that if you purchase a cheap gun you are asking for trouble. Now if you take offense to someone calling a product a POS then that's only one persons opinion. I personally would avoid RIA, and charles daly.Norinco's are decent platforms and tend to be great shooter's.IMHO buy a springfield GI model. Super buy they sell for $369-429 in my neck of the woods. I had a early one and it was a tack driver. :)

[brownie]

larry starling:

The RIA's have been reported to have in excess of 15K throguh them with no issues or wear problems in that round count.

Mine [ RIA ] has been a sweet shooter for 1500 rds so far with NO issues at all.

When the Norincos hit these shores, they were ostrasized like the RIA's are now. They proved over time to be good guns, but they were cheap POS in almost everyones opinion back then.

I think over time, you'll find that the RIA garners a good reputation for reliability, and the service Ivan provides if there is a problem is superb.

I actually think I've seen more SA's reported going back NIB with issues than RIA's on many forums. I still rely on my 1985 issue milspec SA for street carry, it has been ultra reliable for 30K or so since then.

The RIA is a good range gun that works, it can now take the abuse of the round count and the SA can sit with new parts and last a lifetime now that it is not used for both range and street.

Robin Brown

[larry starling]

Brownie, My only experience with a RIA was a well worn range gun at a local range. It wasn't all bad. Gun feed everything, But wasn't accuarate. I heard about RIA through combat handguns. I don't recall the issue number but there general views were that the guns seemed to be well made but suffered from reliability problems.As I don't tend to believe the hype from the gun rags. Thats why I rented one to find out for my self. Glad to hear your experience's have been positive....sure beats the heck out of a Llama huh?.....:)

[brownie]

Larry,

For all I know mine could fall apart after 3K, but it seems to be fine at 1500 right now with no wear issues yet.

Funny the mention about the Llamas, I had a friend who bought one and I asked him to hand it to me. Got some nylon line out of the garage and tied it to the trigger guard.

He wanted to know what that was for and I told him he needed it to retrieve it when he threw it overboard as an anchor.;f

Robin Brown

[nemesis]

Originally posted by larry starling
Brownie, My only experience with a RIA was a well worn range gun at a local range. It wasn't all bad. Gun feed everything, But wasn't accuarate. I heard about RIA through combat handguns. I don't recall the issue number but there general views were that the guns seemed to be well made but suffered from reliability problems.As I don't tend to believe the hype from the gun rags. Thats why I rented one to find out for my self. Glad to hear your experience's have been positive....sure beats the heck out of a Llama huh?.....:)

This is what cracks me up.... you warn someone away from a particular weapon based on one experience with a range beater?

My Makarov set me back $130.... is that junk too?

[larry starling]

Originally posted by nemesis
This is what cracks me up.... you warn someone away from a particular weapon based on one experience with a range beater?

My Makarov set me back $130.... is that junk too? In some people opinions maybe? I personally don't own a Makarov and have never cared to. There was a review in gun test's about surplus markarov's, The writer gave them poor reviews. I personally have no experience with them and will not coment on them. And yes I would warn some one away from a gun if it performed poorly, even if the gun was a well used range gun. I would tend to believe a worn used range gun would be a good indication of what I might end up with after I have shot and used it that much. Now the range where I rented it takes exceptional care of the rental guns. I understand that most ranges rarely clean or lube rental guns but this place is the exception. ;f

[nemesis]

Point is that a range gun with possibly misaligned sights is NOT a good indication of accuracy. You also seem to take note of what gun mag writers have to say.

I would tend to believe a worn used range gun would be a good indication of what I might end up with after I have shot and used it that much.

Maybe.... maybe not.

[larry starling]

Originally posted by nemesis
Point is that a range gun with possibly misaligned sights is NOT a good indication of accuracy. You also seem to take note of what gun mag writers have to say. If you bother to read my post's I said" I don't tend to believe the hype from the gun rags" Also you assume the sites were misaligned. Now it's not my intentions to start a flame war with you, But from reading your post's it would appear that only you can have a opinion and anyone else's experience's or opinion's don't matter? ;g

[paul45]

Originally posted by nemesis
I'll pass on the Series 80 bs....doesn't make SENSE to me. In this case, no one asked your opinion. You are not the person asking for suggestions of a "cheapy" 1911. Picking on someone for a simple typo also shows your true colors. Get over yourself...;Q

[larry starling]

Originally posted by paul45
In this case, no one asked your opinion. You are not the person asking for suggestions of a "cheapy" 1911. Picking on someone for a simple typo also shows your true colors. Get over yourself...;Q ;z ;z ;z

[paul45]

Originally posted by brownie
Larry,

For all I know mine could fall apart after 3K, but it seems to be fine at 1500 right now with no wear issues yet.

Funny the mention about the Llamas, I had a friend who bought one and I asked him to hand it to me. Got some nylon line out of the garage and tied it to the trigger guard.

He wanted to know what that was for and I told him he needed it to retrieve it when he threw it overboard as an anchor.;f

Robin Brown Funny! How come no one posts angry replys to these poor Llamas being trashed? Where are you nemesis?

[paul45]

Originally posted by nemesis
Point is that a range gun with possibly misaligned sights is NOT a good indication of accuracy. You also seem to take note of what gun mag writers have to say.



Maybe.... maybe not. A pistol with possibly misaligned sights will still give good groups. Your point doesnt work.

[paul45]

Originally posted by brownie
"BTW...my reference to the number of years I have liked 1911s was maybe put some substance in my points....kinda like some posters feel the need to refer to themselves as "Quick Kill Instr".."

Thats how I make money, using 1911's to train people in non sighted shooting with a system that has proven itself time and time again.;)

I used to make my money carrying two of them at times for over 20 years. I know a little about the weapon myself, that didn't stop me from buying an RIA as a range gun though. It runs as well as any Colt I've owned, and thats the reason I buy 1911's.;f

My latest training 1911's frame is made in the Phillipines, the slide in Brazil. It runs flawlessly all day, but I'm not sure it meets your description of "a POS non-working, ugly, foreign made clunker."

Here's a pic of the trainer with no sights.

Robin Brown Thanks for adding "some substance" to your earlier comments. The training you teach sounds very interesting. I have strong opinions,based upon personal experience....but glad your training 1911 works well for you

[nemesis]

Originally posted by paul45
Funny! How come no one posts angry replys to these poor Llamas being trashed? Where are you nemesis?

Where did I say ALL cheap 1911s are good products?? "Your point doesn't work," as you say. I'm also not angry by any means, I just wish people would add substance to their claims. Not all 1911s in the same price range are created equal from my experiences.

A pistol with possibly misaligned sights will still give good groups. Your point doesnt work

Depends on the shooter. Point was that there is a huge potential for variables in shooting a range gun.

In this case, no one asked your opinion.

This whole thread is about opinion, some are based on rhetorical cliches, some have more real world substance to them. I prefer the later of the two.

Picking on someone for a simple typo also shows your true colors. Get over yourself...

Get over myself? Didn't pick on him, nor did I say anything personal to him or that I was better than him. I highlighted a correct spelling, nothimg more nothing less. Can we leave the melodramatic E-drama out of this?

[grassy knoll]

I started with the Norinco 1911, thought it was ok to start with, but then I wanted more so I went to a Colt 1911, it was nice but I wanted more so I bought a Para Ordnance 16-40 Ltd, if I knew where I would end up I would have bought the Para in the first place, saved money and time.

[paul45]

Originally posted by nemesis
Where did I say ALL cheap 1911s are good products?? "Your point doesn't work," as you say. I'm also not angry by any means, I just wish people would add substance to their claims. Not all 1911s in the same price range are created equal from my experiences.


Depends on the shooter. Point was that there is a huge potential for variables in shooting a range gun.



This whole thread is about opinion, some are based on rhetorical cliches, some have more real world substance to them. I prefer the later of the two.



Get over myself? Didn't pick on him, nor did I say anything personal to him or that I was better than him. I highlighted a correct spelling, nothimg more nothing less. Can we leave the melodramatic E-drama out of this? (1) Nothing was said about a shooter and misaligned sights. Misaligned sights will shoot the same groups as aligned sights. (2)Prefer what you wish, I prefer you stop picking other posts apart, sentence by sentence, just because they are not to your liking. That would stop the E-drama. (3) Since correcting grammar is nothing more nothing less....its LATTER not LATER. NOTHING not NOTHIMG. Have a great evening

[nemesis]

(1) Nothing was said about a shooter and misaligned sights. Misaligned sights will shoot the same groups as aligned sights.

Did you not catch the variable statement?

3) Since correcting grammar is nothing more nothing less....its LATTER not LATER. NOTHING not NOTHIMG.

I really should type with my glasses on, fair enough.... is this the part where my E-feelings get hurt?

(2)Prefer what you wish, I prefer you stop picking other posts apart, sentence by sentence, just because they are not to your liking. That would stop the E-drama.

Sorry but if someone is spreading ignorance then I'll speak up. For instance your "foreign POS" comment.... Care to back up any of your statements with anything other than rhetoric? Do you know where SA Mil-specs come from? Brazil. Funny how they are good enough to be used as base guns by the likes of Yost, Christiansen, etc. Seemingly they know more than anyone here about 1911s. I'm not here to say that ALL cheap 1911s are great weapons. I'm here to say that the SA Mil-Spec, Norincos, and RIAs are fine weapons for the money, and all of them are FORERN MAYDE POSs. Can I get a Yeeeee HAW?

Question.... are all foreign weapons junk?

[paul45]

OK...here goes.............YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!

[larry starling]

Originally posted by paul45
OK...here goes.............YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!! OK! WTF is this suppose to mean?;a

[quantico]

Originally posted by brownie


When the Norincos hit these shores, they were ostrasized like the RIA's are now. They proved over time to be good guns, but they were cheap POS in almost everyones opinion back then.

I think over time, you'll find that the RIA garners a good reputation for reliability, and the service Ivan provides if there is a problem is superb.

I actually think I've seen more SA's reported going back NIB with issues than RIA's on many forums. I still rely on my 1985 issue milspec SA for street carry, it has been ultra reliable for 30K or so since then.


Robin Brown

Glad you like a few of my 1911's.... They all get holster use and lots of rounds...no life in the padded case sitting unused in the safe for my pistols...

I agree that most cheap guns get panned and labeled as horrible despite people never having any experience with them to interfere with their opinion... I had heard good and bad things about the norinco's and decided to do something crazy.... buy one and actually shoot it and test it ..... ;P

The norinco had loosely fitted parts of decent quality... and would not shoot even close to where the sights aimed it , however it never failed to shoot even once , and although it's group at 25 yards was much larger than my colts or Ed Brown's or springfields... it provided accuracy enough at combat distances that I would have learned to aim it to hit what I needed if I had to depend on just that gun. I choose to upgrade it and to learn about fitting barrels and safety parts etc... I might have been better off starting with a colt or springfield dollar wise... but I got a pretty good education for the money .

I do see springfields that go back for factory service being new in box from time to time. I am not sure if springfield needs a bit better quality control ??? or if people just need to learn to run several hundred rounds and clean and lube to see what they really bought... I know I had some very small issues with my springfield longslide... it failed to lock back when the mag emptied a few times when it was brand new... I just kept shooting it noting the issue and kept cleaning it up and putting tons of oil on it.... and of course the issue just went away after about 500 rounds... never to be a problem again.

People have been really spoiled by sigs and glocks and HK's etc... and now expect that every gun is just perfect as it is purchased.. I feel that those first 500 - 1000 rounds are meant for me to get the feel of the gun... and to wear in the final fit of the parts.. I would not be worried about minor issues until after that 500 - 1000 rounds... These guns can easily shoot many many tens of thousands of rounds and hold up ... why not give the gun a chance to get all the parts smoothed out before folks decide that they are problems ??

One of the few guns that I have seen in competition that really impressed me was an old springfield milspec... it was parkerized in some places... down to bare steel in others with some blue and stanless parts randomly scattered in it's parts list. It was being shot by a 15 or 16 year old girl in IDPA.... her dad had owned it and put tens of thousands of rounds thru it. The gun was now custom built for the girl that was running and shooting it at a beyond rapid pace.. think tomb raider / but faster..

The gun had holster wear and file marks and worn spots where the rough and sharp edges were cleaned up so as not to cut up her hands doing clearing drills.. a bit of skateboard tape on the front strap... a new high end crowned barrel in the place of the factory one ... I got to try the gun out a bit and it had a fantastic trigger pull of about a pound and a half... which was just perfect... I never saw a gun that would have touching holes with double taps on a more regular basis.. Many purists would comment on the worn look of the gun , or the variety of parts thrown together.. but that gun impressed me a lot. Sometimes people get caught up reading magazine reviews of ranson rest tests.... To really evalute a gun you need to really see it in action.

[brownie]

quantico:

A lucid and well thought out response sir.

BTW--You a Jarhead by any chance? I served the Corps from 69-71.

Robin Brown

[quantico]

Originally posted by brownie
quantico:

A lucid and well thought out response sir.

BTW--You a Jarhead by any chance? I served the Corps from 69-71.

Robin Brown

I have not had the pleasure of being one of the beloved core... I do however have many friends that have made the trip...

Thank you for your service...

[freepatriot]

I do know that when I come across a guy with a pistol that he says "is not for sale at any price" I make a mental note of what that pistol is. If a guy will not part with it, that tells me that there's something there.

[JPA1701]

I too have heard the SA Mil-Spec is decent. I have a Springfield but not the Mil-Spec. I would also recommend looking to see what other are seeling or trading in the Firearms area. I actually got a used Springfield from a member on here (GlockHoss) and it has been great plus the guy was great to deal with! I got the SA from him for like $500 I think and it was well worth it. I would also say it depends on what you are using it for. It is just for shooting at the range you have a ton of options. If it is for carry then you really want to get a dependable 1911 which usually costs more IMHO. Not saying a more less expensive would not work. The folks on here do offer good advice. Just do your homework and should find a good deal. Like I said check whats for sale! A used gun may be fine too as long as you know what you have got. Take care!

Just my 2 cents!

[nrmcolt]

Originally posted by turbodude26
Any suggestions???
Try this out, it's a few more bucks, but you'll never regret it.;f
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/nrmcolt/MyColt7.jpg

[Baba Louie]

turbodude
It doesn't really matter what you get in the way of a 1911, since it'll probably just be your first of many.

I started with a Colt Gov't back in '82, got a Springer Mil Spec next, bought a Norinco when they came to our shores (wanted to try a cheap one... love it... got a lot of verbal rah-rah for buying Commie stuff... guess the Makarov, the SKS and my computer don't count), got a another Colt, this time a stainless Combat Commander, bought another Colt 5" (1991 ORM... or should I say HUGE roll Marks), lately got another Springer "GI" mil spec 5", bought a "GI" Champion (4") and the last one I've purchased was another Colt. This time a 3" Defender.
Somewhere along the line, my father passed away and now I've got his old Colt warhorse which he/we bought back in '63 for $35 (I helped him collect things back in the day).

Sights.
Get good sights.
50 year old eyes appreciate them for quicker target alignment. If your eyes aren't yet 50 years old, they will be some day and you'll appreciate my words. Some guns have a way of staying in your possession for 40+ years, ya know?

The only one I've had any work done on was the original Colt Gov't I bought. Had some target sights, magwell, beavertail grip safety, Videcki trigger and compensator added... just for grins.

The rest are stock and run fine with good magazines.

Let us know whatcha get and how it turns out.

PS Don't ya love the 1911 passion around here? ;f

[1991]

I don't know enough to directly comment on anything but my own limited personal experiences. However, I do tend to pick up clues from people who are knowledgeable, such as well-respected custom gunmakers. Yost-Bonitz custom packages run from $1,300 to $2,300 and are based on Colt 1991s and Springfield GIs (unless the customer wants to supply their own base pistol).

[bdcochran]

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The price differential between a cheapie and a reliable is hours at the range with a malfunctioning firearm, parts bills and gunsmith bills.

With years of experience, a large parts box and time, you can probably get any cheapie to work. I did it. Of course there was a learning curve.

What is cheap? A reliable .45 auto shooting CCI aluminium clad rounds that work every time and you don't waste time.

[nemesis]

The price differential between a cheapie and a reliable is hours at the range with a malfunctioning firearm, parts bills and gunsmith bills.

My RIA is as reliable as my STIs and TRP Operator..... explain that one. Hint: I'm not alone..... do some research.

[brownie]

"The price differential between a cheapie and a reliable is hours at the range with a malfunctioning firearm, parts bills and gunsmith bills."

I consider my SA and RIA to be cheapies [ compared to the high end market of 45's ].

The SA ran about 30K with no problems, then needed trigger, sear, hammer and extractor work [ i did adjust the extractor ocasionally over the years ]. Cost in 1985? $230.00

The RIA has run with NO issues at all for 1500rds or so in the last year. Cost? $300.00

Hmm, I bought a Colt NIB that had issues for about 1K during breakin. Needed reliability work after that to make it run. Cost in 1987? $480.00 or so.

Recently had a parts gun put together. SAM frame, Brazilian slide, GI ww2 parts kit. Runs slick as hell for the first 1K so far. Cost last month with the gunsmith bill? $410.00

Sometimes you buy a silk purse and get stuck. Sometimes you buy a sows ear that will run with the best of them.

No one can say for sure till it's at the range.

Robin Brown

[quantico]

Originally posted by Baba Louie
turbodude

Sights.
Get good sights.
50 year old eyes appreciate them for quicker target alignment. If your eyes aren't yet 50 years old, they will be some day and you'll appreciate my words. Some guns have a way of staying in your possession for 40+ years, ya know?



Great advise... I still am running the colt series 80 that I purchased new 26 years ago... at the time I had no idea that my eyes would age , or that I would get older and appreciate having a long term pistol that every member of my family has fired for many years.. I decided that a good trigger... a reliable pistol.... sights that I can easily see... a beavertail to keep the webbing between my thumb and fingers intact... and a smooth gun that is easy to handle / is just a great thing. :)

Most of us have far more guns than we need... and then hold back on expensive guns... what I really needed was a good pistol or two that I can shoot a lifetime.. It would have saved me a lot of money to figure this out 20 years ago... but at least I finally did figure it out.

[royal glockster]

Originally posted by grassy knoll
I started with the Norinco 1911, thought it was ok to start with, but then I wanted more so I went to a Colt 1911, it was nice but I wanted more so I bought a Para Ordnance 16-40 Ltd, if I knew where I would end up I would have bought the Para in the first place, saved money and time.

Buy more! Buy STI 2011 Pistol, more expensive than PARA. :)

[royal glockster]

The thread title is "looking for cheapy 1911 for starters". Imho, cheapy 1911s like Charles Daly, RIA, Armscor, SAM all of which are made in the Philippines are good enough for 1911 starters. Norinco is also a decent cheapy 1911 but chinese made guns are banned in the U.S. i suppose. Any tuned 1911 pistol is a good boomer whatever the brand is, as long as it goes bang everytime you pull the trigger. Yes, there are premium brands and are relatively superior in finish, steel quality, and parts durability. Using the abovementioned cheapy guns doesn't really mean that they are really inferior in terms of performance. You can easily replace the worn out parts with premium brands like ed brown, sti, egw, svi, cmc, wolff, etc. I am an IPSC shooter and i owned a cheapy 1911 SAM Elite as well as a pricey high end STI Edge .40. Both functions well during competitions because i have them properly tuned. Am planning to purchase a RIA 1911 in .38 super to add in my 1911 collections. :cool:

[bdcochran]

Nemises is quite correct. I have never owned an RIA.

I would like people to observe that my comments were not insulting or denigrating to people who own a particular Browning designed .45 auto.

Wisdom is experience coupled with reflection. I have owned over 30 Browning designed .45 autos and have worked on all but about three. Training classes with the Browning designed .45- I don't know, and I did start with paid training classes using the Browning designed .45 auto in the Southwest Pistol League in 1979. Licensed dealer - yeah.

My comments are based upon MY experience and reflection. If some one wants to cite his own personal experience as an exception or the rule, I take it with a grain of salt.

Nemises would be quite upset to learn that after many many years of working with Browning designed .45 autos, I have concluded that various Glock models are far superior in concept, design and execution. My mentor, who is 70, has disposed of his two dozen Browning designed .45s and has switched to Glocks. I have now retired my collection of Browning designed .45 autos and have switched to Glocks. I am slowly selling them off.

And, if people want to find exceptions with good products, they can be found as well. How about two slide stops on a Colt factory .45 auto shearing off within 200 factory rounds of firing?
;Q

[auto45]

For a "cheapie" you really don't have many choices.

A "no-brainer" choice is the Springfield GI or Mil-spec models. Lifetime warranty and a "known" commodity. Probably $200 cheaper than the Colt.

No experience with RIA, but read pretty good things about them. Perhaps, $100 cheaper than the Springfield.

Springfield's are common base guns for customization, RIA's are not.

All that means, IMHO, is you are going to keep the "GI" confiquration and shoot once in a while for fun, buying either one probably doesn't matter. If you plan on shooting a lot and may customize later on, go the Springfield route.