Martial Arts and Glocks [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Martial Arts and Glocks


wolf82362
09-19-2005, 19:34
O.K. I am trained in Jeet Kune Do and Karate and have been contemplating how a blend of martial arts and conceiled carry would play out in a real self defense situation. I do believe that neither a gun or martial arts can gaurentee saftey but was thinking both might be tough to beat. Say for instance someone rushes at you before you can draw, a front kick would clear him away from you and give you an instant to draw your weapon etc. Any additional thoughts?

habu3
09-20-2005, 07:53
Interesting idea. I've been training in multiple arts for a while including Goju, TKD, HapKiDo and a lot of hand-to-hand stuff in my early military days. Our Dojo trains like that a lot. If you think about it, a lot of protective service personnel are trained like that but it isn't for everyone.

One thing to remember...If you have it on you it can be taken away from you and used against you. The other thing to think about is whether or not you are mentally up to using a handgun. Throwing kicks, punches, and locks at your assailant is one thing, but it is a lot different to aim and fire a weapon at a person.

Roundeyesamurai
09-20-2005, 13:30
I'm afraid there's no delicate way to convey my experiences on the matter, so please forgive me if anyone finds some of my statements objectionable.

The primary problem I see with "integration", is a lack of competencies on the part of those desiring to "integrate" skills. When I see posts to this effect, what I am seeing (subtextually) is "I need a specific body of techniques which employ the multitude of skills I want to use"- to put it another way, it says "I think on a purely technical level, and therefore, I need to be shown precisely how to employ all of my skills at once". The competency needed to understand how these different skills fit together doesn't come from technical ability- it comes from conceptual understanding, which is a product of extensive experience in the subject at hand.

The result of such thinking, is rather absurd attempts to "show off" the knife, gun, and unarmed skills all at once. An example of this, is a certain "name" firearms trainer, who altered a pistol flashlight method to employ a knife, rather than a flashlight. The idea was easy enough to understand- pistol in one hand, knife in the other- but the concept wasn't really "integrative", it was just a trite way of showing off the knife and the gun at once.

The next-largest problem I see, is the desire to "integrate" skills which really don't integrate well. An example of this, is the desire to "integrate" firearm, knife, stick, and unarmed striking skills- these bodies of skills are not "complimentary" to one another, they are simply substitutes for one another. It is very much like saying "I want to 'integrate' granulated sugar, Sweet N' Low, Equal, and Splenda". Here again, the desire to demonstrate all of one's skill areas in one succinct motion- rather than a desire to simply conclude the confrontation in an efficient manner.

I would advise that you blatantly examine your own motives- are you seeking to come up with a new venue to demonstrate the product of your training? Are you seeking to simply "put together" all of your previous training (which would indicate that your previous training never exceeded the mere technical realm)? Are you looking to gain experience which relates to your training? What ultimate purpose do you want to come from this?

If the answers to the above questions are unclear, continue reading:

I have stated in other threads, and will restate here, that "integration" is at its best when complimentary skills are applied to one another. An example of this, is my essential list of skills for the police officer:

1) Skills intended to control persons (when a weapon is inappropriate);
2) Skills intended to be employed when insufficient time or space is afforded to access the weapon;
3) Skills which fill the role of a substitute for the weapon (when the weapon can't be carried, or malfunctions).

Obviously, methods of striking with the hands fill the bill for number 3, and may be satisfactory for number 2; conversely, methods of grappling fill the bill for number 1, and may be satisfactory for number 2.

The real "integration" is to understand that the primary means of combat is armed combat, and to understand that unarmed skills exist solely to be used when the weapon is inappropriate or inviable. Attempting to make the unarmed methods "equal" to armed methods (in other words, the usual thinking of "integration"), is like bringing the proverbial knife to a gunfight.

EDIT TO ADD: An afterthought:

Bruce Lee said "Let nature take its course, and your tools will strike at the proper moment".

There is alot of wisdom in that statement.

TED
09-20-2005, 15:24
In my opionion, the use of a firearm and martial arts should focus on...weapon retention, disarming a gun from the other guy, strikes at extreme close quarters to allow you to draw and employ the firearm, and using the weapon as a bludgeon. I think that that is all that you can hope for.

BTW, Roundeye, the reason I have not yet asked you to call is because I am on dayshift and the lady is on night shift and we both are busier than hell. I am at work right now in fact. There has not been any free time when I have been at home at a decent hour for anyone to call and then even if there were, she is generally sleeping at the time, and you do NOT want to wake the dragon when she is sleeping (pure evil I tell you, and a VERY light sleeper).

TED

Roundeyesamurai
09-20-2005, 16:08
LOL No sweat Ted.

wolf82362
09-21-2005, 17:52
It is interesting that round eye quotes Bruce Lee as Jeet Kune Do is indeed Bruce Lees art! The purpose of my post was simply to explore the issue of "tools in the toolbox" and HOW TO TRAIN when to use them and how. Bottom line, if someone shows intention to kill me or my family I will shoot them and worry about prison/lawsuits later. Having said that, truth is I have ended most fights/attacks before they started therefore using my best weapon (brain) FIRST.

I am not in law enforcement or the professional protection buisness or the military. I am just an average citizen who has a way above average interest in martial arts, firearms and personal and family protection.

Let me rephrase my thoughts. For home defense I could buy an alarm, a German Shepard or guns. There are benefits and draw backs to all 3. (I choose the last two).

I also understand that circumstances dictate the action. But, you tend to do in real situations as you train. Therefore I do not enter tournaments or engage in excessive sparring for that reason..my training is for self defense and personal growth only.

Looking for specific thoughts from you all. Let me start off..I have a shoulder holstered g22 not because its the best way to conceil but because I am able to kick easily with this rig on as that often is my first response to a rushing assailant. See where I am coming from? I appreciate all of your comments thus far by the way...

mastersix
09-22-2005, 02:32
Flame on.....

Roundeyesamurai
09-22-2005, 08:41
Originally posted by mastersix
"Escalation of force". If you are going to "integrate" weaponless defense with armed defense, you must understand escalation of force issues and be able to articulate to law enforcement why you took the action you did. I hold belts in numerous martial arts (6th degree black in old school Kenpo Jujutsu, Instructor rank in Krav Maga, MMA coordinator/kickboxing coach and boxing coach and corner, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, Aiki Jujutsu blah blah blah)and I carry edged weapons and firearms every day. I am an ex cop with a ccw and full time professional martial artist. I can say that to be a true warrior means to have all your tools/weapons in place and use only the right tool for the job. It sucks to need a tool and not have it... All the other conjecture and prolific writing is to impress you with eloquence. Right tools for the job, bottom line. If you don't know how to use/retain them properly, leave them at home (which includes martial arts).
www.valleyfightclub.com

Did you copy/paste this from the SCARS advertisement in Soldier Of Fortune magazine? It reads (I use that word loosely) almost identically! ;z

AiKahrDo
09-23-2005, 11:03
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
I'm afraid there's no delicate way to convey my experiences on the matter, so please forgive me if anyone finds some of my statements objectionable.

The primary problem I see with "integration", is a lack of competencies on the part of those desiring to "integrate" skills. When I see posts to this effect, what I am seeing (subtextually) is "I need a specific body of techniques which employ the multitude of skills I want to use"- to put it another way, it says "I think on a purely technical level, and therefore, I need to be shown precisely how to employ all of my skills at once". The competency needed to understand how these different skills fit together doesn't come from technical ability- it comes from conceptual understanding, which is a product of extensive experience in the subject at hand.

The result of such thinking, is rather absurd attempts to "show off" the knife, gun, and unarmed skills all at once. An example of this, is a certain "name" firearms trainer, who altered a pistol flashlight method to employ a knife, rather than a flashlight. The idea was easy enough to understand- pistol in one hand, knife in the other- but the concept wasn't really "integrative", it was just a trite way of showing off the knife and the gun at once.

The next-largest problem I see, is the desire to "integrate" skills which really don't integrate well. An example of this, is the desire to "integrate" firearm, knife, stick, and unarmed striking skills- these bodies of skills are not "complimentary" to one another, they are simply substitutes for one another. It is very much like saying "I want to 'integrate' granulated sugar, Sweet N' Low, Equal, and Splenda". Here again, the desire to demonstrate all of one's skill areas in one succinct motion- rather than a desire to simply conclude the confrontation in an efficient manner.

I would advise that you blatantly examine your own motives- are you seeking to come up with a new venue to demonstrate the product of your training? Are you seeking to simply "put together" all of your previous training (which would indicate that your previous training never exceeded the mere technical realm)? Are you looking to gain experience which relates to your training? What ultimate purpose do you want to come from this?

If the answers to the above questions are unclear, continue reading:

I have stated in other threads, and will restate here, that "integration" is at its best when complimentary skills are applied to one another. An example of this, is my essential list of skills for the police officer:

1) Skills intended to control persons (when a weapon is inappropriate);
2) Skills intended to be employed when insufficient time or space is afforded to access the weapon;
3) Skills which fill the role of a substitute for the weapon (when the weapon can't be carried, or malfunctions).

Obviously, methods of striking with the hands fill the bill for number 3, and may be satisfactory for number 2; conversely, methods of grappling fill the bill for number 1, and may be satisfactory for number 2.

The real "integration" is to understand that the primary means of combat is armed combat, and to understand that unarmed skills exist solely to be used when the weapon is inappropriate or inviable. Attempting to make the unarmed methods "equal" to armed methods (in other words, the usual thinking of "integration"), is like bringing the proverbial knife to a gunfight.

EDIT TO ADD: An afterthought:

Bruce Lee said "Let nature take its course, and your tools will strike at the proper moment".

There is alot of wisdom in that statement.

Roundeye,

You are a well spoken aikidoka, and I suspect already that I would likely enjoy visiting your dojo one day, although I have never been to the NY area and have no current plans to get up there anytime soon, but I've officially put yours on the list to visit when the chance arises, with your permission of course. :)

I really like your post above, especially this part:

Here again, the desire to demonstrate all of one's skill areas in one succinct motion- rather than a desire to simply conclude the confrontation in an efficient manner.

Well put.

I saw the link to the ISR Matrix you put up. Very interesting.

What do you think about this Krav Maga? I have a friend that got really into that. Without dissing the art, I have to admit it seemed very stiff and at the time seemed risky to use as it

1. Relied on the element of surprise because
2. I see no control of center and therefore surprise and strength is critical to success and
3. self defeating if you are not really quick and accurate.
4. Too many steps which leads back to #3.

However, those were my first impressions, especially watching the DVD dealing with gun takeaway. One technique involved a "dirtbag" pointing a gun at a woman's abdomen James Bond style(elbow at side, forearm extended with PPK in right hand). Defense was as follows(from memory).

a. Dirtbag and Nage remains square with feet planted. Nage leans to left(offline) while grabbing the slide of gun and pushes over to dirtbag's left.
b. while in this awkward position, manages to punch dirtbag in face hard enough to distract him long enough for him to forget she has hold of his gun.
c. then nage still holding the gun with left hand, reaches under the dirtbags right hand with her right hand and wrenches the gun from it by grabbing the back of the slide and pulling down while pushing up the "butt" of the grip.
d. Steps back and points gun at dirtbag.

All of this assuming that he also doesn't just lean left and continue pointing gun at her. Or of course a shihonage isn't applied with gun ending at her head before she reaches step #2. Or a quick nikkyo or sankyo with gun pointed at her face. I'm sure you can think of others, like a nice kokyu or even a koshi. The reversals are endless, all with nage ending up worse off than she started.

Again, I'm not knocking it at all, because no art is perfect. I just like to ponder and explore scenarios, and that particular one concerns me for the soccer mom or female officer that tries that technique and is too slow against a large "dirtbag".

C. Martin

Roundeyesamurai
09-23-2005, 12:00
Hey AiKahrDo-

Thanks for the compliments!

Krav Maga is, in and of itself, very decent as a combative method- presuming one doesn't go so far as to believe it is the "be-all-do-all". Like any other martial art, the practicality of it (or lack thereof) depends entirely on the instructor.

Any discussion which contains words to the effect of "(Insert method) is the absolute best thing around", or conversely, "(Insert method) is a complete waste of time" is a fruitless discussion. Even more so, when such is made in an obvious attempt at marketing.

SanduneCC
09-23-2005, 12:34
Obviously you need to see this.

wolf82362
09-23-2005, 21:39
Interesting posts! (and lol at the martial arts vs modern arts.)

Had some additional thoughts..martial arts and guns or weopons of any sort, should feel like a natural extension of ones self. Then they will be employed in an instinctive and natural way..which would increase the speed of delivery and effectivness. Rehearsal in the mind as well as actual practice are essential.

bluemeanie
09-24-2005, 12:03
I find that a lot of the things I learn in MA class blend in fine with the fact that I carry. Note that I don't speak from experience with deadly encounters, just as a 2-year student of MA and a CHL (CCW) license-holder for about 6 years. I've shot some competitive pistol matches and taken defensive handgun classes, along with developing a finely-tuned poop-filter on the internet message boards.

I have started to see things that relate, such as: The chamber for many punches, holds and throws seems like a dandy gun retention position. Retention positions I've seen demonstrated bear this out.

I think empty-hand skill + handgun skill= A good combo. Being able to move, punch, kick, evade and counter attacks rocks. I notice that I sort of reflexively make moves to protect my holstered pistol in jostling crowds or when I'm forced to be near people or groups I don't exactly trust.

The skills I'm learning continue to combine with the instincts God already gave me. Someday I might try to codify the two, seek the endorsement of the Navy Seals and watch the money roll in. I doubt it though.

:cool: Keep training

wolf82362
09-25-2005, 11:01
Thanks for your post blue! My wife accuses me of being a wannabe Ninja spy..I told her only on the weekends as I can't afford to give up my regular job..insurance benifits are too good! lol

Martial arts teaches you to possess a much higher level of awareness...even this alone would be valuable, now add the fact that you have good defensive/offensive skills. I feel that some people may have an unrealistic feeling of security with their guns and I imagine the same for martial arts skills.

Reality check though, what happens if you don't have a gun with you or the gun malfuctions? What happens if you try to do martial arts and the dude pulls a gun? (Indiana Jones! lol)

Knowing the benifits and limitations of both PLUS practice ..REALISTIC practice are essential in my opinion!

J.M.Towers
09-26-2005, 09:51
Originally posted by wolf82362
... how a blend of martial arts and conceiled carry would play out in a real self defense situation...

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/academy.html

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/kao/otn/pbball.gif

Bolt_Overide
09-26-2005, 23:19
While I have studied both jeet kun do, and akido, if it comes to violence I hate to say it but Im just going to shoot you. Here is my reasoning, Im too old to fist fight, I have no desire to do it. so if you are able to push me to violence, its because i genuinely beleive my life is in danger, and Im going to respond accordingly.

Also, you just never know when some jackass that wants to fight has a weapon.. not worth brawling, too much chance of getting hurt bad or killed.

Zenhachirou
09-27-2005, 00:47
Special Forces have been integrating knife, gun, empty-hand work for years. And police officers integrate guns and hand-to-hand combat every day. At any time, a ruckus can escalate to a crisis. A guy you're wrestling with can finally get his switchblade from his pocket, or maybe you're trying to keep two guys keep apart when one suddenly pulls a gun. What do you do then? Well, you transition from "hand" techniques to "gun" techniques.

"Integration" doesn't have to mean "both at the same time." It means "knowing when to use what." Pistol-whipping? That's integration of hand-to-hand combat and gun combat right there.

Now if somebody's pulled a gun on you, say they're standing ahead pointing it at your chest, it wouldn't be out of the question to attempt a good Krav Maga defense, like grabbing it around the barrel and misdirecting the first shot to your right side. As soon as you're out of the way, all you do is pull your sidearm in your right hand and blast him in the stomach from the hip.

It's the same thing as incorporating knife + empty hand techniques. It can be done. Exploration and progression is the key to being a warrior.

Minuteman
09-27-2005, 01:43
Originally posted by wolf82362
O.K. I am trained in Jeet Kune Do and Karate and have been contemplating how a blend of martial arts and conceiled carry would play out in a real self defense situation. I do believe that neither a gun or martial arts can gaurentee saftey but was thinking both might be tough to beat. Say for instance someone rushes at you before you can draw, a front kick would clear him away from you and give you an instant to draw your weapon etc. Any additional thoughts?

Your jkd acadamey does not offer combined weapon/pistol defense? Inosanto acadamey?
Mine does. Mostly it's cops and security.
It just seems like common sense to me. If you carry a gun, you should be practiced at disarms, defendeing against disarms, grappling and other mixed use.
I believe most cops are taught to "shove away" and "kick away" while drawing. Standing up, on the ground dominate and weak positions. Good basic skills.

;?

Roundeyesamurai
09-27-2005, 15:58
Zenhachirou:

Thank you for your very thoughtful reply.

In regards to your examples of current integration:

Military combatives of any sort don't so much "integrate" combatives. It's more like substitution- when a firearm runs out of ammunition, use the firearm as a bludgeon instead, or use a knife instead. If a knife or bludgeon isn't available, use an improvised weapon instead. If an improvised weapon isn't available, use your hands instead. You get the picture. In a military environment, this is common sense.

The "integration" of firearms and unarmed measures by police officers follows precisely what I said above- skills which compliment the firearm. Again, this assemblage is common sense.

Likewise, the use of unarmed measures to permit the acquisition of a weapon is precisely what I was referring to when I said "When the firearm is (...) inviable". This is also common sense.

What I find objectionable, is when some people go to extreme measures to apply various skills in a manner which is excessively complicated. This is inefficient, and smacks of showmanship more than anything else. See my reference to the "name" instructor for an example of what I mean.

Real "integration" is a matter of spontaneous creativity (in other words, "Thinking on one's feet". Naturally, various skills can be practiced together in order to get the feel of this sort of integration. However, one must caution against getting over-complicated. It's easy for the technically-minded to forsake efficiency for the sake of flashiness. Many persons who refer to themselves as "instructors" fall into this trap as well.

Zenhachirou
09-28-2005, 01:35
What an ambiguous reply. Are you agreeing or not? ;f

I've had enough exposure to police combatives to know that the concepts that some might call "integration" are really just clever methods to transition from one thing to another. The best technique I've learned from my "source", him being a veteran of 25 years, is a one-handed gun-cocking method for when your weak hand is tied up in the clinch with a suspect. Being able to rack a sidearm with one hand strikes me as being an invaluable skill, especially in the heat of a grappling session with a dangerous perp. Is this integration? To me, yes. It seems to me that this is a gun technique being employed while in the midst of what was previously a hand-technique battle.

However in the big scheme of "technical" things, this technique might seem very basic. But integration can't really be more than playing connect-the-dots between different planes of combat, otherwise you get into that area that may be mostly style and very little substance. At least that's the way it seems to me. It's easy to draw lines from "knife to gun", or "empty-hand to knife to gun", but can you really COMBINE them? I would say no.

Roundeyesamurai
09-28-2005, 01:41
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
What an ambiguous reply. Are you agreeing or not? ;f

I've had enough exposure to police combatives to know that the concepts that some might call "integration" are really just clever methods to transition from one thing to another. The best technique I've learned from my "source", him being a veteran of 25 years, is a one-handed gun-cocking method for when your weak hand is tied up in the clinch with a suspect. Being able to rack a sidearm with one hand strikes me as being an invaluable skill, especially in the heat of a grappling session with a dangerous perp. Is this integration? To me, yes. It seems to me that this is a gun technique being employed while in the midst of what was previously a hand-technique battle.

However in the big scheme of "technical" things, this technique might seem very basic. But integration can't really be more than playing connect-the-dots between different planes of combat, otherwise you get into that area that may be mostly style and very little substance. At least that's the way it seems to me. It's easy to draw lines from "knife to gun", or "empty-hand to knife to gun", but can you really COMBINE them? I would say no.

LOL Actually, I am agreeing, particularly with this post.

And especially with this statement:

"But integration can't really be more than playing connect-the-dots between different planes of combat, otherwise you get into that area that may be mostly style and very little substance."

Precisely!

I think it's also noteworthy that the folks making a living off of doing this, are usually the folks who are quick to criticize us for being "too attached to style without substance".

Zenhachirou
09-28-2005, 02:22
Oh! All right, good then. I wasn't sure if we were on the same page or not, hehe.

You'd think that it would all be about practicality. But I see that you guys were talking about a guy who was using a knife and a gun at the same time, with the knife in place of the flashlight. I've heard of and seen this technique and I think it would serve as a great deterrent to anybody attempting to disarm you, but I mean, other than that... what? I think that anybody trained with whatever "method" that would be would eventually just revert to the knife OR the gun in a stressful situation. I can't imagine having a deadly weapon in each hand; I wouldn't know which to use when. It'd just confuse you, especially since you couldn't freely grapple or use empty-hand techniques as a result.

Roundeyesamurai
09-28-2005, 03:07
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
practicality

Whoa, time-out, lemme stop you right there.

Warning: What I am about to say is graphically violent, sexually explicit, slightly profane, and will be construed by many people as demeaning and/or offensive.

Good.

The majority of those interested in firearms, martial arts, and any other sort of combative discipline, are involved for one specific reason:

IMAGE

This is either self-image (wanting to construe one's self as a "badass"), or the image of others (wanting others to construe one's self as a "badass"). Often both.

This desired image permeates into all facets of life. Such persons cannot relate to other, except in a way which constantly informs others that said person "is a badass". They practice scowling in the bathroom mirror, and applying the scowl to co-workers to see if it has the desired effect. They absolutely cannot leave the house without being armed, because armaments are a part of their "identity". Their recreation, fantasy life, and daydreams all involve copious amounts of sex and violence (and usually, sexualized violence). They fantasize about the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to kill the badguys and ride off into the sunset with the damsel (Ladies, be warned- as often as not, the damsel they're fantasizing about, is probably you). It is for this reason, that I often refer to CCW permits as "hero cards".

The reality of their life, that they're entrapped in a job they hate, either sex-deprived or in a sexless marriage, is of no consequence- or, is is part of what causes them to want to create their "new" identity.

The fact of the matter is, quite a few folks are making a tidy sum of money off of these people. Gear distributors, tactics trainers, website owners, and so on. One of them happens to be the "name trainer" who devised the knife-flashlight technique we've been discussing. They make their money off of providing goods or services to these deluded souls, and capitalizing on their delusions. I really don't blame them, either- make the money however you can.

For these enterprising businessmen, specifically the trainers, any means of devising the newest, latest "must-have" skill set is important- it pays the mortgage. "Practicality" isn't an issue- if it looks "badass" enough, it'll sell.

The same "name trainer" who devised the knife-flashlight technique above, has also started recently offering a "Terrorism Interdiction Course", specifically for civilians who CCW. He purports to be capable of teaching the students everything they need to know to engage in their own counter-terrorist operations. All one must do is travel to the venue, pay him $750, and sit through a weekend of classes. Oh, and bring 300 rounds of ammunition, a pistol, and a knife. The same lack of practicality, for the sake of fueling delusions of "badassness".

This same trainer (among many others), also invents and uses new buzzwords- in fact, I would credit him with popularizing the concept of "integrating" firearms, knives, and unarmed combatives.

Lest anyone reading this think that my responses are dictated by a dislike of this individual man, think again- what I find distasteful, are people who hold the delusions of grandeur in the first place, not those capitalizing from it.

It's unfortunate that some of these deluded persons will, themselves, become "instructors" (thanks to the NRA, and various martial arts diploma mills).

In a perfect world, such delusions wouldn't occur- we wouldn't have a society which glorifies violence above everything else, we wouldn't have a culture which has come to believe that "righteous" violence should be rewarded with idolization. We wouldn't live in a society that so closely links fantasies of violence with fantasies of sexuality.

I can attest from personal experience, that after committing "righteous" violence, one is not adorned with laurel leaves and presented willing young maidens to deflower- despite what certain "name trainers" will tell their deluded pupils, one usually ends up sitting on the floor of their kitchen, trying to decide whether to drink until passing out, or shoot themselves. Forget sleeping, because nightmares won't let it happen. Forget sex, because getting an erection won't happen for some time. Relationships usually collapse. Jobs are lost. Savings are spent (or seized). Friends disappear. You're no longer Billy Badass; you're a broken, fragile human being. It's not a game anymore.

This might not happen immediately after the incident, but eventually it does happen.

Maybe this could be different, too, if society got a big enough reality check. But then, the entertainment industry would go bankrupt.

And too many keyboard commandoes would have to find new hobbies.

Zenhachirou
09-28-2005, 03:35
That was an awesome post. And scarily on the mark. I admit I see a bit of myself in it. See, I write a lot of fiction and the real tenderness of a human being underneath a hard outer shell of a "warrior" is something I try to touch on every time.

I'm not sure where you're going with the "sexualized violence" bit, though.

Roundeyesamurai
09-28-2005, 03:45
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
I'm not sure where you're going with the "sexualized violence" bit, though.

Watch enough pornography, and you will.

I've watched alot of porn in my time (for various reasons)- I have yet to see a porn movie which didn't send the subtextual message "Sex is done to a partner, rather than with a partner".

The biggest porn aficianadoes I know? The same sort of folks I've been describing.

And, thank you for the compliment.

Zenhachirou
09-28-2005, 04:00
Haha, I've watched a share. But on that topic, they do make softcore and "couples" porn, which is a little more... I don't know, intimate? Romantic? Mutual, even?

I see we're talking about the ultimate "alpha male" mentality here; a fist-swinging, gun-slinging porn star. But I know guys who go to my jiujitsu school who consider themselves "pacifists". And some of these same guys also delight in all sorts of female degradation on film. So, where does the image come in for them?

Roundeyesamurai
09-28-2005, 04:12
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
Haha, I've watched a share. But on that topic, they do make softcore and "couples" porn, which is a little more... I don't know, intimate? Romantic? Mutual, even?

I see we're talking about the ultimate "alpha male" mentality here; a fist-swinging, gun-slinging porn star. But I know guys who go to my jiujitsu school who consider themselves "pacifists". And some of these same guys also delight in all sorts of female degradation on film. So, where does the image come in for them?

Softcore and couples porn is a different matter entirely.

Why do the "pacifists" in your group delight in the same? One word: Superiority. Why are those fascinated by violence, so fascinated? They fantasize about superiority. Moral superiority, intellectual superiority, physical superiority, et al, are all aimed toward the same end.

Look at the many contemptable, annoying, or disturbing behaviors one sees- and the common theme in most of them, is the attempt to establish superiority.

"Pacifistic" martial artists (and remember, I'm an Aikidoka, I see plenty of these folks) are generally either asserting moral superiority, or espousing non-violence (in others) so that they can be "the baddest" by comparison- in other words, they fantasize about everyone around them being completely incapable of initiating violence, so that they will cower before the one, sole person capable of violence (the "pacifist" imagining all of this).

Usually it's the former (moral superiority), rather than the latter.

Zenhachirou
09-28-2005, 14:47
Ah, yes, I understand. But doesn't every male have ideas and wishes to be "better" or "the best" at something? To win? It's just the way that we are programmed after all.

V42
09-30-2005, 20:40
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
The competency needed to understand how these different skills fit together doesn't come from technical ability- it comes from conceptual understanding, which is a product of extensive experience in the subject at hand.

The result of such thinking, is rather absurd attempts to "show off" the knife, gun, and unarmed skills all at once. An example of this, is a certain "name" firearms trainer, who altered a pistol flashlight method to employ a knife, rather than a flashlight. The idea was easy enough to understand- pistol in one hand, knife in the other- but the concept wasn't really "integrative", it was just a trite way of showing off the knife and the gun at once.


I had to read that a few times to understand what you mean.

I would think for the most part if you had a functional handgun you would be better off using a 2-handed hold on the handgun for better control and accuracy, and to be able to reload when your handgun runs out of ammo.

You use a flashlight with a gun in order to be able to locate and/or identify your target. Holding a knife with the other hand offers no such advantage. You have a knife handy immediately if you run out of ammo, but you sacrifice some things to do so that might not be worth sacrificing.

You are no longer on good terms with unnamed trainer?

Zenhachirou
09-30-2005, 22:49
(The knife-gun technique is also to prevent anyone from trying disarms on you... nobody's going to reach for your gun if they think they might lose a finger.)

Roundeyesamurai
09-30-2005, 23:16
Originally posted by V42
You are no longer on good terms with unnamed trainer?

Well, unlike said trainer, I prefer not to publicly air my grievances.

Roundeyesamurai
09-30-2005, 23:18
Originally posted by Zenhachirou
(The knife-gun technique is also to prevent anyone from trying disarms on you... nobody's going to reach for your gun if they think they might lose a finger.)

;z

V42
09-30-2005, 23:46
Aw, c'mon.

You are not going to at least tell me if I was on the right path with the difference between using the knife and the flashlight in the support hand?

BTW, a certain person in Queens, NY says you are a nice guy.

Roundeyesamurai
10-01-2005, 00:00
Originally posted by V42
Aw, c'mon.

You are not going to at least tell me if I was on the right path with the difference between using the knife and the flashlight in the support hand?

BTW, a certain person in Queens, NY says you are a nice guy.

You're spot on with the reasons for not doing it- occupying the weak hand should be done as a matter of necessity- occupying it with a flashlight when one needs to see, or occupying it with the firearm (i.e. 2-handed hold) when additional stability or control is needed, etc. Placing the knife in it, when the knife is superfluous, detracts from the usefulness of that hand (in holding a flashlight, or the firearm, or opening a door, or fending off a grab, etc.).

In the case of this particular instructor, he has even used the knife in a superfluous manner- drawing the knife in order to wound the opponent while simultaneously drawing the firearm, and then holding both in the Harries flashlight position to facilitate shooting.

As for me, I'd rather K.I.S.S.- simply strike with the hand (if one needs to physically separate from the opponent), or shoot right from the draw (ala "The Zipper", as 7677 is fond of teaching). When speed is of the essence, adding a second mechanical device to manipulate (albeit a simple one) is asking for a fumble.

And, as for the certain individual from Queens, I think the same of him!

wolf82362
10-01-2005, 20:24
OOOOOOOK TIME OUT! How did my thread go from martial arts/gun integration to people who are obsessed with porn! What the heck!

A dude leaves for a few days a look what happen! lol

Listen as far as the Walter Middy crap regarding weapons and martial arts maybe...but don't some dudes fantasize about being a Nascar driver or Derby winner or whatever? I think as a human you tend to fantasize about whatever you are interested in.

In addition, martial arts doesn't mean being a "bad ass" ....if it does, then you don't really get martial arts. The arts I have studied so far are not for show..so no one exept my fellow students and instuctor knows what I am up to. Lets chill and get back to the basics of this thread. I appreciate the posts about "transitions" and real life situations. But of course ALL posts are welcome!

Keep 'em coming! :)

Roundeyesamurai
10-01-2005, 20:42
Originally posted by wolf82362
OOOOOOOK TIME OUT! How did my thread go from martial arts/gun integration to people who are obsessed with porn! What the heck!

A dude leaves for a few days a look what happen! lol

Listen as far as the Walter Middy crap regarding weapons and martial arts maybe...but don't some dudes fantasize about being a Nascar driver or Derby winner or whatever? I think as a human you tend to fantasize about whatever you are interested in.

In addition, martial arts doesn't mean being a "bad ass" ....if it does, then you don't really get martial arts. The arts I have studied so far are not for show..so no one exept my fellow students and instuctor knows what I am up to. Lets chill and get back to the basics of this thread. I appreciate the posts about "transitions" and real life situations. But of course ALL posts are welcome!

Keep 'em coming! :)

Patience, grasshopper.

The technical information is worthless without context- the "Walter Middy crap" you refer to, is "context".

Without context, you end up trying to make things more complicated in order to find "meaning", rather than having the meaning and making things less complicated.

wolf82362
10-02-2005, 11:28
Listen no offense but that crap about porn was well CRAP! If you want to discuss porn fine..but that is not the "context" of this thread. Being off topic is being off topic. Listen I have a college degree and all that and can puke words out until the whole world thinks i'm deep. But lets REALLY keep it simple by staying on topic. The part about that post that I DID like was the way in which it put a mirror up to us all. Sometimes we don't like what we are forced to see. I admit that at times in my mind I am a James Bond poser...but as I said, we tend to fantasize about what we like or aspire to.

The above does not detract from the central point of: I am a martial artist who has a weapons permit who is interested in the real aspects of using both for legitamate self defense. Sure..some of the senerios I play out in my mind are one in a million now..but in the future who knows? Like the Boy Scout motto says "be prepared". If I fantasize about being a Nascar driver while driving to work that doesn't mean that I am not really interested or prepared to buy a car which will reliably get me to work.

Other posts I liked talked about using a gun against deadly force FIRST since the gent felt he was too old to fist fight. This is a realistic assesment..a practical assesment. Also the post that went: gun first..no ammo? gun as a bludgen or knife no knife? Improvised weapon..no improvised weapon? hand to hand combat. THANK YOU FOR THAT POST!

And thank you for all your posts I never expected this much response!

:) Wolf82362

Roundeyesamurai
10-02-2005, 13:02
Calm down, Francis.

It all goes to mindset- one cannot make things work together without being able to see "the big picture". When one sees "the big picture", all of these different elements fit together on their own- there is no need to create new, intricate ways to force them together. Creating such new, overly complicated measures, only serves to cloud that same big picture.

Part and parcel of that big picture is motive. What are your motives? And I don't mean "what words can you come up with, to "legitimize" what you're asking for?", because legitimacy defines itself.

No, I am asking instead, "What do you actually want?". The answer is obvious- you want to fight. I lay no judgement on that desire, because one needs a good dollop of experience in order to paint "the big picture".

I heartily recommend you find a venue to gain such experience- and them come back, and see if you have a need to ask about "integration"- or, come back and tell us if things have integrated themselves.

wolf82362
10-02-2005, 15:00
Um NO! your mystical crystal ball has let you down..I do not "want to fight". Listen its ok that you don't get me...just don't call me a talking mule!

:)

Roundeyesamurai
10-02-2005, 15:15
Originally posted by wolf82362
Listen its ok that you don't get me...just don't call me a talking mule!

I get you perfectly- I used to be you, when I was younger.

"Talking mule"...?

wolf82362
10-02-2005, 18:54
Alright Mr. Mystical how old am I?
:)

Roundeyesamurai
10-02-2005, 19:01
Originally posted by wolf82362
Alright Mr. Mystical how old am I?
:)

I never claimed to be a mystic, and I don't believe that maturity and chronology are linked.

wolf82362
10-06-2005, 17:16
I have been reflecting over our posts here for the past few days. First of all let me say I LOVE a good debate, and so often I have a way of getting people charged up or getting charged up myself.

Having said that, I would like to share a true story..while camping on one of the Ten Thosand Islands in Everglads National Park..legally, float plan and all. My wife and I had the misfortune of having to "share" this small barrier island with some loud yahoos with obnoxious kids. They also had a dog who kept invading our camp site. Well I decided to get all Alpha and marked our camp site with urine. The dog watched patiently and as soon as I finished went around remarking those same spots. My wife fell on the ground in laughter. I feel as if I may have repeated this process with some of my posts. Gentelmen, let me conclude by saying I need to be true to the teachings of Bruce Lee..absorb what is useful and discard the rest. I have found MANY of the thoughts here very useful and I thank all for posting.

and now I respectfully bow out....

Cmoosh
11-02-2005, 00:48
I am curious...how do you see yourself Roundeyesamurai?

I know without me hearing the words from you, alot of the feeling and emotion behind what you say is lost in context.

I have practiced aikido on and off for a few years. For various reasons i chose to know a martial art because i do wish to have an edge in combat, but who here doesn't. When looking for my first martial art to learn i decided on aikido because of how you could (seemingly) solve situations without using excessive violence, while also having the choice of increasing the pressure of your throws and attacks to make for more then enough violence to get the job done if the need arised. If i understood correctly the ultimate goal of aikido is to avoid a fight (or so i was told) altogether if possible, while having your abilities at your disposal (locks and various other maneuvers) to subdue while not causing excessive injury.

And once i am 21 i will go out and get my CHL, not because i have some dreams of grandeur, but because i wish to have another tool in my belt at my disposal if the crap ever does hit the fan. I probably will never have to use it but if the need arises, i will be glad it is there. I know that seems to defeat my aikido training, but in the end they are the enemy and lethal force may be the most viable option just as it may not be who knows only time will tell when the situations arises.

I don't think anyone is thinking about the women or the glory when a fight occurs, i have been in plenty of them during highschool ( i know out in "the real world" the fights come with more lethal consequences) and never once was i thinking of some girl or how i would be the greatest thing since sliced bread, the whole time i was thinking about getting out unharmed, and i will be truthful, i didn't really care how badly i hurt the other guy as long as i got out ok. Every fight i have been in i was attacked, but every fight i was in i wasn't the victim in the end, isn't that what our most basic goal for learning a martial art is? to not be the "victim".

I would like to hear everyones view on this

Roundeyesamurai
11-02-2005, 01:42
Cmoosh;

Good question.

I am reminded of an old story:

A Zen master was having tea, and one of his disciples wanted to ask him a question. The master agreed, and offered the student to sit and have tea with him. The master began to pour the tea, and the student began to ask his question, which was really several questions in one long sentence. The master continued to pour while the student continued to ramble, and the cup overflowed. The student stopped midsentence to say "Master, you're pouring the tea onto the table!" The master stopped. He asked the student, "Is that enough for you?".

The moral of the story is, that learning is fundamentally an exercise in experiencing. We learn nothing of significant value unless we experience it for ourselves. Part of this, is having the experience of making associations for ourselves and drawing conclusions from them.

This topic is a good example of that- one could be presented a list of "combinations" of various different techniques, but why? To do this would deprive the student of the opportunity to figure this out for themselves through trial and error- to learn from the experience of doing.

This in turn deprives the student of opportunities to develop their spontaneous creativity- developing the ability to make instant, instinctive associations between things. This ability to "think on one's feet" is infinitely more valuable than having combinations to remember in extremis.

Imagine, if you will, a math class where the students are presented problems, and then the teacher writes the solutions to the problems on the chalkboard. Would there be any value to this class? Obviously not- aside from having the solution to the problems immediately placed in front of the student. The experience of learning the method, and thereby being able to apply it to whatever problem is presented the student, is lost.

On this same tack, a class consisting of "combinations" (in other words, the end result of others' experiences) would similarly deprive the student of the ability to learn to make the associations between techniques and circumstances for themselves.

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with puzzle books, where the solutions to the puzzles are printed in the back of the book. The sort of individual who looks at one of these books, reads a puzzle, and then turns to the back for the solution to the puzzle, is precisely the same sort of person I am talking about. The author took a considerable amount of time to learn to become adept at puzzles, took time to craft this puzzle and a solution... and the reader would rather have the author's experience second-hand, than have the benefit of the experience of solving the problem for themselves.

Since it is human nature to desire to gain experiences, we should ask ourselves why some persons would choose to circumvent this natural impulse and merely obtain second-hand information on the results of others' experiences?

This impulse to have answers presented, without working for them, is a personality defect. It is a product of laziness. It is a product of instant-gratificationism. It is a product of cheating. It is a product of the entitlement mindset.

Most importantly, and most damningly, it is a product of fantasy- the idea that a person can very quickly change who they are, or how others view them. In this context, this impulse is no different from the impulse to obtain cosmetic surgery- an "instant fix" for percieved personal faults.

Rather than being a source of shame, though, this defective trait has been exploited for the financial gain of those "instructors" who would feed it! Such instructors encourage this base behavior. They even go so far as to ridicule those who don't exhibit this laziness- and do so with the most absurd of all allegations: That the lazy are somehow more "complete" or more "capable" than the intrepid!

Those who train martial arts sincerely, train for the experience of the training, not for an expected end result.

So, to answer your question Cmoosh: I see myself as the guy who tore the last few pages out of the puzzle book, and threw them in the garbage.

I don't want the answers handed to me, I want to discover them for myself.

Cmoosh
11-02-2005, 13:01
well said, in the end the coreagraphed moves that we learn in our controlled environment have to be used in a world where the factors are unknown and it comes down to our ability to adapt and fluidly move with the moment. As well as asking others for solutions that work for them when we should look and experiment with our own styles to see what works for us.

And now that you mention second hand experiences, although i believe that there are things you can only learn through experiences of your own. I see nothing wrong with asking questions to people that have more experience then you in order to see things in different views.

Although i think you are talking about people who actually have nothing but questions and want everything handed to them from someone elses experiences though while not doing anything themselves expecting to become some "super ninja" or something without actually investing any sweat into it.