newbie 1911 question

[TheDoubleGlock]

...so many 1911's to choose from!

I'm wondering if there is a 1911 that is like a Glock.

Now, what do I mean by that? Well my first pistol was a Glock, b/c of all the guns I like... I like the newer, tactical stuff first. It must be reliable, durable, etc, etc, etc. And, for the PRICE... shoot, nobody can beat it. Of all the SWAT teams and military special forces teams... the popular choices are Sig, H&K, Glock, etc. You see, Glock ranks up there with the big boys, but you don't pay the big price!

So, is there a 1911 out there that is like a Glock?

Or is the popular opinion that a $950 pistol is "a good start for a 1911?" (Of course, note that one could get 2 Glocks NIB with some accessories for this kind of money!)

[paul45]

I would think you should get 2 glocks instead. It sounds like you have very pleased so far with your glock.

[larry starling]

I'm wondering if there is a 1911 that is like a Glock

No 1911's are made out of steel and are machined their not produced by injecting hot plastic into a mold to make a frame.

Glock ranks up there with the big boys, but you don't pay the big price!

The reason you don't pay a big price is the gun is almost all plastic. Tupperware is cheaper to produce than fine china so keep that in mind.

So, is there a 1911 out there that is like a Glock?

Yes,there are three manufactuer's that make plastic 1911's Wilson Combat makes the KZ-45 msrp $1395.00 Kimber makes the BP Ten msrp $619.00 and lastly BUL makes one I believe it's imported by Charles daly now. Not sure of price
Or is the popular opinion that a $950 pistol is "a good start for a 1911?" (Of course, note that one could get 2 Glocks NIB with some accessories for this kind of money!) No I have several Colt's well under $950 and they all are excellent shooter's. If I may suggest maybe you should just stick to your Glock's ;P

[quantico]

There and many budget 1911's that cost a similar amout of money to a glock or a sig. Is money an important issue when choosing a gun ???? I don't think so, but then maybe I have too much money ?? or maybe the selection of a gun is a very personal issue to someone like me. I don't know of many folks that can carry all of their guns at once... few people need a lot of guns... what we NEED is a gun that is reliable and that we can ON DEMAND place several well shot rounds into a target quickly.

A 1911 requires that you shoot it enough to get comfortable with the trigger and safety controls... you should learn to clean it and oil it enough so that it runs well. You can buy a colt 1991A1 for about 700 dollars , or a springfield loaded... or even pick up a milspec springfield or a TRP springfield... maybe a used Les Baer TRS that has a couple thousand rounds thru it...

My first series 80 colt cost 310 dollars out the door around 1980... the gun has about 55000 rounds thru it now... I did some trigger and sight work on it a couple years ago. It still hits well and has not failed to load / fire / extract / eject once since Carter or Bush the first was in office... If you shake the gun it makes some cool rattling sounds... The front sight flew off of it once while I was shooting in the dark in the rain.. outside at a range practicing shooting with a flashlight... The barrel link pin loostened up and I needed the gun for a pistol competition... so I cleaned the parts with some rubbing alcohol to clean the oil and put a couple drops of lock-tite on the pin. It has been fine for maybe ten years... but some day I might need to do that again.

My grandfather shot that colt... my dad and I shot that colt... my daughter will soon get to shoot it and I will make sure she gets it when I no longer need it.. When I bought the gun I did not know anything about shooting a 1911. I placed rounds in the chamber and let the slide snap shut.. I can't believe that I never snapped the extractor... I let the slide slam shut hundreds , maybe thousands of times... what poor treatment that poor gun got when I was not smart enough to know better. The gun now gets better care and still lots of use...

I had no glock option in the 1970's or in the early 1980's so I ended up with a heavy old design... the 1911. That gun still fits me well and I would be very happy to defend my family with it any time.. it still looks pretty good despite having the origional finish that is still on it. After owning many guns many years I finally figured out that the 1911 is the perfect gun for me... I have been selling sigs and glocks etc and plan on sticking to just one gun type..


If you want to buy several glocks because they are less expensive I would do so.... they tend to work well... If you are looking for a gun that you can spend a lifetime shooting... one that you can make fit your hands by changing grips... one that you can select many different sights for... one that can be made to fit you like a glove... you might want to consider learning a bit about 1911's and maybe buying one. Professional instructors and the FBI tactical folks love 1911's... but they do require you to learn how to shoot them and care for them. They may even have a higher failure rate than plastic guns at times.. of course learning how to get the gun back into service quickly should be part of your training on any gun...

I can tell you that someone owning ten glocks and ten sigs and five HK"s and going back and forth between them is LESS prepared to defend himself than someone that owns one decent 1911... you likely won't believe that ... I know that what I said is true because I was the guy owning many guns.. but mastering none of them.. Cost / value / may be important to many people, but I want at least one gun that I can trust to save my life and the life of my family... just one.. for me that gun is a 1911. I have some that cost a bit more than a glock... I have some that cost ten times more than a glock.. Mine are shot often and not kept on display in a case..

Is there a 1911 like a glock ??? that is what you asked... I guess I don't think so. I would suggest you really think about what you want a gun to do... and what effort you are willing to put forth to learn to shoot whatever you buy... Maybe a 1911 would be a good choice for you... maybe not.

This is a picture of my old clunky colt 1911... it is not for sale at any price.. Can you say the same thing about your glock ??

http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/fbigovusa/colt1.jpg

[Maximaking]

1911's are perhaps the most loved and hated guns. If you're new to shooting and guns I would not recomend a 1911. Any 1911 can be finiky. They do need a level of care unlike what you see in a Glock. You will need to keep it clean and lubed. There's really no way around it. This is part of the reason aside from cost that the military changed thier sidearm from the 1911. Now that this is said take the time to check out the 1911's. Read up on them. I've read good things about Armscor on the low end and the Smith 1911's mid priced. I myself prefer Kimber, it's just what I've had good luck with. Have both off my Kimber's been back to Kimber for repair? Yes they have. As have two of my Glocks. One downside that many new shooters find with the 1911 is the price of ammo. $10/box is pretty much as cheap as you'll find. 9mm is half of the price to shoot. Here's a breakdown of what I'd say would get you started shooting a 1911.

Nice mid level 1911 $700
2000 rounds of Blazer $360
good holster $100
all in all $1200 to start for a pretty basic setup.

[TheDoubleGlock]

Wow. Thanks a bunch, gentlemen.

Those were certainly some considerations I had not thought of. To use a rather weak analogy, I guess Glocks are like Fords and 1911's are like Jaguars.

Well, I sure do want one (or two... maybe three... lol). I will do the research (while I save the money up!) and see what I can see. Thanks again for all of your replies!

[TheDoubleGlock]

Maximaking & Quantico:

I'm sorry, but your comments sparked another question:

You guys basically said that the 1911's are high maintenance. Is this similar to what most people say about AR's? (In that you MUST keep them, like, SUPER-DUPER clean or expect some malfunctions).


And this one is just for Quantico:

Are you saying that when you fire the last round (and the slide locks in the open position), you should NOT eject the empty mag, pop in a loaded mag, and push the slide-stop release to load back up?

[Robert McLeod]

Originally posted by TheDoubleGlock
Maximaking & Quantico:

I'm sorry, but your comments sparked another question:

You guys basically said that the 1911's are high maintenance. Is this similar to what most people say about AR's? (In that you MUST keep them, like, SUPER-DUPER clean or expect some malfunctions).


And this one is just for Quantico:

Are you saying that when you fire the last round (and the slide locks in the open position), you should NOT eject the empty mag, pop in a loaded mag, and push the slide-stop release to load back up?

I am not Quantico or Maximaking, but the 1911 is a high maintenance pistol, not in the fact that you have to keep it spotless or it will malfunction. Quite the contrary actually, depending on the fit, they can usually withstand quite a bit of dirt and debris before a malfunction is induced. Take the grips for instance, alot of times when you remove the grips you can damage a grip bushing in some way. In order to replace these correctly you have to have the proper tools and knowledge. Yes they do require more frequent maintence than a Glock does, but for most of us 1911 guys it is a labor of love, sometimes we clean them just to clean them.

Now when Quantico said that you should not release the slide he was referring to dropping the slide on an empty chamber. This is especially important with a pistol that has had trigger work performed on it. Refraining from droping the slide on an empty chamber will make your trigger job last longer.

[freepatriot]

Originally posted by Maximaking
If you're new to shooting and guns I would not recomend a 1911. Any 1911 can be finiky. They do need a level of care unlike what you see in a Glock. You will need to keep it clean and lubed. There's really no way around it.



I feel like this kind of reasoning panders to the lowest common denominator. I think we should give newbies more credit and not keep repeating the mantra "don't start with a 1911"

Millions of servicemen fired the 1911 as their first gun ever and were trainable. For references, see WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. ;)

I'm jest sayin' ... we should assume that a man can learn to handle a .45 without problems until he demonstrates otherwise.


Originally posted by Maximaking
This is part of the reason aside from cost that the military changed thier sidearm from the 1911.

I do not know what the actual motivation for the switch was (I saw the congressional record on the hearings but could not interpret the legalese), then why did they go to the more complicated Beretta? That stupid takedown lever on a Beretta is a nightmare for a newbie. I hate that thing. And I don't think the Berettas are that much cheaper than 1911s were at the time. Witness the recent move back towards the .45 in the field.


Originally posted by Robert McLeod
Now when Quantico said that you should not release the slide he was referring to dropping the slide on an empty chamber.


Actually I think he was referring to dropping the slide on a chambered round, i.e., a bullet placed manually into the barrel.

[freepatriot]

Previous posts meant with all great respect, of course. ;?

[TheDoubleGlock]

Scottauld:

Hey, thanks for your support! But it's okay... I didn't take offense to those comments. The 1911 needs TLC. That's a bit of info I find very useful if I am going to purchase one of these (super-expensive) pistols.

And I totally agree with you on the Berettas! One time, when I was in the military, I got bored and tried to break down my 9mm (I normally did not have to do this, as it was the gunners mate's job to clean all the small arms). It was painful. It was just as painful putting it back together, too.

And, yes... now I have re-read the post... I think Quantico was saying that he would lock the slide open to use his fingers to set one bullet into the chamber & hit the slide-stop release to bang the thing into a bullet that shouldn't be there... but, hey, it survived! And the pic he posted of the thing looks pretty good to me.

[quantico]

Originally posted by TheDoubleGlock
I think Quantico was saying that he would lock the slide open to use his fingers to set one bullet into the chamber & hit the slide-stop release to bang the thing into a bullet that shouldn't be there... but, hey, it survived!

I was talking about doing a couple stupid things... first dropping a round in the chamber and letting the extractor snap shut over it... AND frequently letting the slide slam shut empty without picking up a round.. Both of these are no-no's with 1911's and bad for many pistols in general .

I learned how to correctly operate 1911's and pistols in general after some period of trying to destroy my guns ... I was however not sucessful in damaging anything... a tribute to the durability of the guns I owned...

To answer the question of 1911's needing more maintainance let me be specific...

All guns should be cleaned after firing... especially after a couple hundred rounds or more.. glocks seem to be able to go many sessions before they stop working well because they have very loose toterances and little interaction between slide and frame [ receiver ] . It takes me about 15 minutes to tear down a 1911 / clean all the parts including the barrel and lubricate the works.. it takes me about the same time for an HK / sig / glock or 1911. I taught my artist brother in law to take apart and re-assemble a 1911 in about 2 minutes.. he is a guy that takes in a pull start lawn mower to get the spark plug changed... plan accordingly .

The 1911 likes oil to run well... glock owners seem to think that three drops of oil is all you need ... maybe it works for them... I like to keep guns oily... sigs / hk's / glocks / and 1911's.. I use mobil-1 15w 50 motor oil on those 6 inch cotton q-tips... when I used very light lube on my 1911's I noticed that after 200 rounds that the gun started to feel tight... it worked... but felt unoiled.. Now I can run 1200 rounds in a range session and have no issues.. I always change oil and filter frequently in Porsche products that I own... I don't know how long my ford v-10 superduty F350 will run without oil.... but I can assure you that the porsche gets regular oil changes.. my 1911's also get good service..

There are areas that cause problems in 1911's... at least places that you should understand how they work and how they fail... the extractor tension needs to be correct to make the gun run well.. it's not rocket science to get a 1911 set up correctly, but 1911's with too loose or way too tight an extractor don't run well.

Magazines... being a gun that has been in production almost a hundred years the 1911 has millions of old / cheap / worn and out of spec magazines floating around.. the magazine is a very important part of an auto pistol... if you use high quality mags you get a reliable gun... if you throw a crappy mag with a bad spring in a new 1000 dollar gun the gun is a bad design ??? Well No, but that is how some people read it..

The first 1911's were very loose to deal with combat conditions... filth.. and lack of maintainance.. as 1911's have moved from soldiers sidearm to competition pistol they got tightened up in fit... that allowed the guns to be much more accurate , but to occasionally not work ... modern CNC machines have helped make affordable guns that fit well. You can get a gun that works well and shoots well more easily then ever before..

the 1911 requires skills to operate... you have to know how to safely load and carry it.. the fine points may not be obvious like they are in some guns.. find someone that knows and understands 1911's to give you a tour of the assembly / operation and maintainance and you will have a lifetime of respect for what many of us consider the best sidearm ever designed.

[quantico]

Originally posted by TheDoubleGlock


You guys basically said that the 1911's are high maintenance. Is this similar to what most people say about AR's? (In that you MUST keep them, like, SUPER-DUPER clean or expect some malfunctions).



Are you saying that when you fire the last round (and the slide locks in the open position), you should NOT eject the empty mag, pop in a loaded mag, and push the slide-stop release to load back up?

I like guns that are cleaned and lubed after each range session.. the 1911 likes being cleaned and lubed... but it does not need to be kept in a sterile environment.. cleaning involves solvent and a toothbrush and a borebrush and patches... cleaning a gun does not mean wiping off the fingerprints and putting it back in the box..... If you can properly clean a gun , you can shoot a 1911 and keep it happy.

I was talking about locking a slide back and letting it slam shut empty... that can be hard on the trigger parts if finely tuned.. loading the gun as described is perfectly fine.. the round scraping off of the mag and getting loaded into the chamber takes energy... and the energy used doing those things makes the gun get less abuse.. in fact it is designed for that..

[TheDoubleGlock]

Thanks for the clarity and more input, Quantico!

And you did mention something that seems to be a pretty good idea... using engine oil for you guns. I probably would never have thought of that. If it's enough protection for pistons, then it should be plenty for a gun...

Has anyone else ever tried this (or any other sort of similar trick)?

[freepatriot]

The use of Mobil 1 is the subject of dire discussion around here. A search for the word "Mobil 1" will show you.

I use it and it works fine.

http://freepatriot.com/imagewarehouse/waltergunoil.jpg

[TheDoubleGlock]

scottauld:

Lol. So it's pretty bad, huh? I'm going to have to take your word for it, I guess. I tried the search, but: 1) there is apparently a "minimum" number of characters that must be in a search, and 2) we are only allowed to perform a search every 30 seconds and I lost patience. But anyhow, thanks for letting us know you have tried motor oil as well.

[freepatriot]

So which 1911 are you going to get?

[TheDoubleGlock]

Originally posted by scottauld
So which 1911 are you going to get?

Well, obviously, my experience/knowledge is junior to you guys. But...

A friend has a "government model" Colt, and a smaller version (The Colt Defender). We went plinking, & both pistols jammed up more times than Interstate 45 in Texas during the hurricane season. So, I will probably stay away from the so-called original.

A co-worker has shot the Colt in Nam over & over & over. He now owns one of the new S&W 1911's. He loves it to death. We always talk guns & he always brings that new pistol up (and heck, he has around 100 firearms). But I have not shot it yet.

Now... at a gun show, I was able to handle a Kimber. When I picked it up, it felt like it was making love to my hand. I want to shoot one bad. Sometime later at a firing range, I met an ex-marine who has had his Kimber for several years now, and couldn't talk enough about it.

So, I suppose I'm leaning toward a Kimber. I am just not going to commit unless MANY, MANY people convince me... or I finally get to shoot one for a little while.

[mhill]

I really like my Kimber. I don't have a top of the line Kimber and it is great. It's pretty basic. You get a lot for your money in my opinion.

Come on over and shoot mine. I love it.

[TheDoubleGlock]

Originally posted by mhill
I really like my Kimber. I don't have a top of the line Kimber and it is great. It's pretty basic. You get a lot for your money in my opinion.

Come on over and shoot mine. I love it.


Hey, thanks for the offer. It sounds like you & I would have fun blastin' some stuff up... unfortunately, I am much farther south than you are... I am really "down in the derty!"

So, what model do you have... and how much is it?

[quantico]

Originally posted by TheDoubleGlock

A friend has a "government model" Colt, and a smaller version (The Colt Defender). We went plinking, & both pistols jammed up more times than Interstate 45 in Texas during the hurricane season. So, I will probably stay away from the so-called original.



The colt 1911 can be just excellent. I have several that just work.. the likely cause of problems : magazines / ammo / poor tuning or maintainance. The new colt series 70 is excellent, the current 1991A1 is also a decent gun. I prefer my 1911's with fewer safety parts ,so the kimber generation I I is not to my liking.. the smith version is supposed to work well... again I perfer guns closer to the orig design.

You need to shoot several 1911's and do a bit of research to get the feel of your options..

Good entry level 1911's to look at ..

springfield / GI / loaded model / milspec
colt 1991
kimber [ prefer older series I guns ]
nowlin
para ordinance
STI
SIG
Smith / Wesson

Good expensive 1911's to at least check out

Springfield Pro model
Ed Brown
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Nighthawk

Tight budget good deals

springfield GI 1911's
Dan Wesson
Norinco

[paul45]

A friend has a "government model" Colt, and a smaller version (The Colt Defender). We went plinking, & both pistols jammed up more times than Interstate 45 in Texas during the hurricane season. So, I will probably stay away from the so-called original. Might I suggest that one or more of the basic problems discussed already were present in you friends 2 Colt models, those being bad mags, wore out recoil springs, little or no lube or cleaning, extractor issues, or limp wristing. I like Colt 1911s alot and can feel confident in telling you to not make decisions based on your friends Colts. There are many people who post on this forum that in all probability could make those two Colts run like champs. Thats my opinion....And I also use Mobil 1,and Tetra grease on the rails. My Colts run 100%, not trying to BS you either. Have good luck in your search!

[mrb302]

My $.02...

I was torn between the Springfield GI and the Kimber Custom II. The GI was 100% pure basic and the Kimber had most of the aftermarket features that I wanted (beavertail, adjustable trigger pull, extended safetly / release, etc).

My final decision was to:

A.) Buy the Kimber the way that Kimber wanted it to be customized

B.) Buy the SA GI model for $200 +/- less and then customize it the way I want it.

I got the Springfiled and then the Brownell's boxes began rolling in on a weekly basis. Now I have a "real" custom 1911 just the way that I want it.

[TheDoubleGlock]

Originally posted by paul45
Might I suggest that one or more of the basic problems discussed already were present in you friends 2 Colt models, those being bad mags, wore out recoil springs, little or no lube or cleaning, extractor issues, or limp wristing.

My friend's standard-size Colt was aaaaabout 2-3 weeks old. And the little Colt Defender was 2-3 DAYS old when we took them out to shoot. Now, I do trust that Colt has a good quality assurance department, so it's parts probably are not the issue.

I guess I'm gonna have to tell my friend he is a limp-wrist, little girlie! LOL!

But seriously, I'll let him know about this before he gets rid of them over nothing. After he shot them & they kept jamming up... I was not about to waste my time with them. So, I never actually gave them a spin for myself. I'm not Hercules or anything, but I'm plenty strong enough to control a .44 mag. So, I'll have to get with him again, and we'll see if this works out. Hopefully it will... well for him anyhow... that's a lot of money :)

[paul45]

I guess I'm gonna have to tell my friend he is a limp-wrist, little girlie! LOL ....Oh great...another person who thinks I'm an a**. Let me tell him YOU said it, not me!....;f

[ILikeFtLbs]

The Springfield MilSpec (not GI version) is pretty close feature wise to the Glock. 3-dot sights, parkerized finish, etc. You put a few hundred rounds through one of them, and I guarantee you'll adjust. Also, it's just tight enough to be accurate and lose enough to come apart in seconds. The GI is a great gun too, but the sights are the old style tiny ones.

The Kimber Custom II is a very nice pistol as well.