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Parmaboy
09-25-2005, 12:36
This may get no responses becauase maybe some of you carry when you are not supposed to. Just wondering if anyones dept. lets them carry a firearm/ has a dont ask dont tell policy ;-)

D25
09-25-2005, 14:34
No. I really dislike it, but no.

Tvov
09-25-2005, 16:34
In my town it is unnecessary. As far as I know none of my FD carries.

It was interesting though a few years ago when I went to Jury duty. I was wearing my FD coat (heavy windbreaker with emblem). At the entrance to the courthouse, one of the guards asked if I was carrying before I went through the metal detector. I said no, and then asked why she asked me. She said that it was common for firefighters in the city to carry, both on and off the job, whether or not they were supposed to.

Parmaboy
09-25-2005, 21:18
huh, thats interesting. I live about 1 hour away from Gary, IN. I was told that it was a dont ask dont tell standing there. I of course have no objective knowledge of this, it just what a buddy said ( and we all know how reliable that is ;g ) I personally think that although it would be nice to carry on my service (EMS) I would hate to worry how secure my firearm is, when I am crawling into the backseat of a car to Bag a front seat passanger.

rwojcik
09-27-2005, 23:30
We generally are supposed to have LEO's secure the scene but sometimes circumstances dictate differently. As with any call, things can and ofen do go differently than expected. I went over our by-laws and no mention of carrying while on duty but here in MI, we often go into places that are supposed to be gun-free zones (schools, bars, etc...)but was wondering if this would put us in violation? We have turnout gear to protect us from the elements, latex from Bio, Hazmat suits for Chems ... why not guns for safety?

hotpig
10-01-2005, 19:52
I have a FD issued Glock but I seldom leave the Station with it unless I have a Investigation to do.

Bubbamedic
10-02-2005, 20:45
I do not carry on the job because the state of NC says you cant carry into any government owned building. I did some research a while back and came across a section in the state laws that would exempt a firefighter or ems personel from prosecution if they respnd to a call at a school or post office or other restricted area while carrying. I found this helpful since I always carry when not at work but I run with the volunteer fire dept and my boss encourages us to respond to major incidents off duty if possible.

Parmaboy
10-02-2005, 23:24
Bubbamedic:
So it sounds like you could carry after all? Do you just prefer to not have to explain this law to others? You said you dont carry, but then said the law says its ok.

Bubbamedic
10-03-2005, 06:24
I see how you interpreted it that way, but I read it to mean if I respond while off duty and am carrying because that happens only occassionally while our bases are posted against all firearms concealed or not. Explaining has alot to do with it also. If I respond to a call at the school I would probably leave it in the truck to avoid the hassle. The law says something like we are exempt while performing our job, not neccessarily while sitting at the base. Plus the county has a no firearms policy as well.

M1Garand
10-16-2005, 15:56
It is probably not necessary for FD/EMS personnel to carry firearms in most working situations/environment with the exception of riot or certain high risk LE situations.

Most people, including criminals, have respect for Fire and EMS personnel. Also, most people would not think of messing with people with ax and sledge hammers.

Fireman1291
10-16-2005, 17:07
Going into a fire and realizing I forgot to take my gun off would seem like a ****ty day to me. My dept has a strict no firearms policy on the FD property, even in your vehicles. The vehicle rule is dumb so take it as you will on whom follows that, and im not the only one there that shoots and carries.......

Victory
10-17-2005, 16:54
in PA it's illegal to carry while working EMS. That includes swat medics.

Tvov
10-17-2005, 21:05
You mean a SWAT member who is a medic can't carry a weapon ? Or is that only when he is working strictly EMS?

Victory
10-18-2005, 10:08
if they are working as a sworn police officer then they can carry a weapon. Unfortunately most places just use medics from nearby EMS agencies. They go through all the same training but are not sworn officers and are not on the PD's clock.

For instance, in my local the medics are hospital based and a group of them are SWAT trained. They get dispatched when the team gets a callout. They gear up and respond to scene seperately. They are still operating under the hospitals EMS licence and therefore cannot carry weapons. I'm sure in larger cities like philly the PD has officers trained as medics as opposed to medics trained as officers.

Of course, this is not to say a lot of the medics don't just slip a handgun of the same design using the same ammunition as the PD inside their vest for swat callups. Also doesn't mean that one of the swat guys won't "accidently" leave a weapon next to you while you're treating a patient.

Turk40SW
10-21-2005, 13:29
I have heard of firefighters being allowed to carry during hurricanes. Don't ask where I heard it. ;)

AdminKY
10-21-2005, 14:26
Originally posted by M1Garand
It is probably not necessary for FD/EMS personnel to carry firearms in most working situations/environment with the exception of riot or certain high risk LE situations.

Most people, including criminals, have respect for Fire and EMS personnel. Also, most people would not think of messing with people with ax and sledge hammers.

What side of the bed did you wake up on? Just last year Lexington Fire Department had an EC unit dispatched to a scene. A man shot his wife, and shot at the fire department responding to help. Killed one and seriously wounded another. Do a Google search for Lt. Brenda Cowan. Thats not the first time things like that have happened either..... Carrying axes around and putting water on fire is not the only thing the fire department does.

Victory
10-21-2005, 15:14
Originally posted by M1Garand
It is probably not necessary for FD/EMS personnel to carry firearms in most working situations/environment with the exception of riot or certain high risk LE situations.

Most people, including criminals, have respect for Fire and EMS personnel. Also, most people would not think of messing with people with ax and sledge hammers.

Sorry, wrong answer.

EMS here wears uniforms that look strikingly similar to police uniforms. Sewn in creases and badges with bullseye's that say "shoot me." We used to wear FD T-shirts, but ever since we made the switch to "more professional" i've been sporting kevlar. 2 weeks ago I was 25 yards from a driveby on duty and was crouched in the wheel well of the buss. I'll rely on kevlar and awareness to stop bullets, not some gangbangers supposed respect, especially when i've heared accusations that "EMS doesn't try hard when it's an (insert minority group here)"

Just remember EMS is there to save the guy who just got shot and some other guy has invested interest in that person remaining dead. This makes rescue personnel secondary targets.

kyfirefreak
10-23-2005, 21:52
I've thought to been LEO many a time while working FD. We don't get the cracked out crowd all too often, as i work in a small urban city, but when we do, it turns into a bad day usually. Our PD is outstanding to work with but you can never have too much protection.

Firearms are strictly prohibited on city property where i work, therefore not a chance for us getting to carry.

RSQMedic
11-14-2005, 20:26
Hello All,

1. Carry on property, only if you want to be terminated.
2. Firearm in car on property, constitutionally protected activity in Louisiana.
3. Carry during post hurricane operations, specifically and directly told by fire chief he would send us home if we were caught with firearms. ( I'm a fully commisioned deputy sheriff - did not matter to him )
4. While working EMS in the BIG Easy years ago - you bet I carried!

Steve

Mr. Ajax
11-17-2005, 18:12
Originally posted by M1Garand
It is probably not necessary for FD/EMS personnel to carry firearms in most working situations/environment with the exception of riot or certain high risk LE situations.

Most people, including criminals, have respect for Fire and EMS personnel. Also, most people would not think of messing with people with ax and sledge hammers.

tell that to one of my partners who's been stabbed 3 times and shot 1. It wasnt lack of awareness on the scene, it was just bumb luck. 4 times.

Turk40SW
11-18-2005, 13:57
Originally posted by Mr. Ajax
tell that to one of my partners who's been stabbed 3 times and shot 1. It wasnt lack of awareness on the scene, it was just bumb luck. 4 times.

time to find a new line of work..

JGinzo
11-18-2005, 17:42
I have heard of firefighters being allowed to carry during hurricanes. Don't ask where I heard it.


Not in South Florida, at least not legally. Have I seen it yeah, would I do it no way. Not losing my pension over having a gun in the station.

dcar
11-20-2005, 00:27
My volunteer FD has quite a number of police officers. We actually have a lock box on one of the engines for them to secure weapons before gearing up.

Mr. Ajax
11-30-2005, 11:28
The state of VA permits carry by EMS last time I checked. I dont personally feel the need to carry at my job but I used to wear kevlar on occasion. had I been old enough at the time to carry I probably would have slapped something like a keltec p3at into a wallet holdster.

XNYTRUCKIE
12-06-2005, 10:40
Unless your a swat medic or a investigator, it is a great way to lose your job, here in south florida there are alot of brothers who carry off duty, but not on, we are firemen not cops.....

rwojcik
12-06-2005, 12:20
Originally posted by XNYTRUCKIE
Unless your a swat medic or a investigator, it is a great way to lose your job, here in south florida there are alot of brothers who carry off duty, but not on, we are firemen not cops.....

We don't imply or try to be cops nor did I think it was a requirement to carry but the fact is we still (by the nature of the job)put our selves into harms way to do our job. We have other types of tools at our disposal for use in the name of "protection" ie... PPE, gloves, boots, SCBA equipment, etc... that we use for a potential threat to ourselves and others but why not against other threats that may or may not be intentional to cause us harm? Are we any less valued to not have the right to "self protection"? There are too many rules out there that are to just used to pacify the general gun fearing public and are established based on fear (so and so might do this or if we had the means (gun) to protect ourselves we will automaticaly transform into criminals). We need to make the rules based upon our needs not what the public sees our needs to be; we are the one's that are doing our job after all. I am just asking based on your statement that we as firefighters have any less need to be armed because we're not cops? Is your area of work secure enough were there isn't any threat? Besides, the fact is that cops carry for the same reason that any other person would (protection). Persons that sit outside are not very realistic. They're avoiding the truths that there are crimes and yes there are really people out there that do wish us harm. Enough of my rant though,I still see a void in that area that many jurisdictions have deemed us as not enough of a value or maybe they think of us as uneducated enough where we don't have the capacity to protect ourselves.

XNYTRUCKIE
12-06-2005, 12:39
i never said Brother , we dont have the need, just that If the situation is ****ed, then think twice, risk vs benifet kind of thing.. if a house has been fully involved for lets say 20 minutes do you still send in a crew or make it a sorround and drown? It is them same if you respond to a scene with multable gunshots and more when you arrive, i would have my crew wait down the block till our brothers in blue do their job... If you guys have to carry because of job wont protect you, then do what you have to do...and stay low...

rwojcik
12-06-2005, 13:01
I see where you are coming from but the LEO cannot always get and keep the scene secure even though that is the reason they are there. Most departments have enlisted the LEO's service as security even though they have no legal empowerment to do so (at least at the civillian level). Don't we have the mentality and capability to have that right for our own self protection? How many times have you seen SHTF and the LEO isn't available or they're pre-occupied with other on-scene duties that they cannot be there in that capacity. Although were all on the same team, I feel we should have the right to be able to make that call. Much like we have the need to enter into a burning building but the public says we cannnot use an SCBA because they don't see it (the situation)as a threat because they don't have to experience it.

XNYTRUCKIE
12-06-2005, 13:15
I think we are close to the same page and dont get me wrong, i would love to carry while on duty... BUt some of the knuckleheads iw ork with, lol that scares me....

rwojcik
12-06-2005, 13:27
I will give you that! But the one thing I can count on is each and everyone there will be there in the time of need. Some may be challenged but I know that if I were down, they would drag my ass out.

MiamiE
12-08-2005, 14:14
swat medics are NOT allowed to carry either ;)

swatemintx
01-05-2006, 17:11
We have areas in DFW texas where you are most at risk on the streets around the ER itself. From the vol. perspective, I am going to carry. Haven't been made, don't intend on being made, but when SHTF, you gotta have options.

G10CK
01-07-2006, 02:03
A few of the poeple in our dep carry. Not cause of what might happen on the job, but simply cause they carry every where. I myself when I goto calls I have mine because it was already on me when I was rushing to the scene. Depending on the call I leave it in the truck with my personal items that were on me.

On the real job... As a contractor, I carry too. I never used to though. One day I'm sitting ontop of 4 bucks of scaffling working, and what happens directly below me? A gun fight between 3 guys. Bullets are binging off the very wall I'm working on. My work partner was missed by a just a few inches from one of the bullets. Ever since I've carried. Might not be the most confortable thing, but I'll be damned if some "thugs" are going to ruin my beautiful work. ;i

ChrisF
01-14-2006, 16:22
I would love to carry on duty, but it doesnt go over well here. we simply wait for LE to clear all questionable calls before we enter the scene. all overdoses, domestics, gunshots, stabbings get secured by LE. and the comment about ems/fire being respected by most applies here. a guy was apprehended a while back by a K9 unit, and we had to take a look at him before the jail would accept him. he was fighting the sherrifs office when we arrived, but complied with me completely. i know everyone doesnt respect us, but most do.

Truckee
01-19-2006, 12:44
Originally posted by Mr. Ajax
The state of VA permits carry by EMS last time I checked. I dont personally feel the need to carry at my job but I used to wear kevlar on occasion. had I been old enough at the time to carry I probably would have slapped something like a keltec p3at into a wallet holdster.

Yo Bro... we can discuss this at work... but just to clarify for Va. boys and girls if they read your post.

The latest Va. OEMS regs initially prohibited anyone, except sworn LEO, from carrying any "weapon," specifically stating firearms, when on any agency-licensed apparatus. This did not "intend to" include a knife carried in the performance of one's duty.

This issue was pushed and determined that the OEMS regulation was in violation of Commonwealth Statute. Therefore the OEMS firearm prohibition was -supposed- repealed. Odd enough, even post request of VCDL etc., they haven't removed the regulation from print. OEMS vows that this is an "un-enforceable" regulation and under its breath mentions for providers to simply "ignore" it. I, like VCDL and others, say quit printing it.

However, by policy most Va. municipal and private FD and EMS agencies continue to prohibit firearms on their property and equipment. So, you're still screwed if you so opt to tote or even have one inside your POV on their grounds.

You know where we are... there are pretty good bosses that go by the "don't ask, don't tell and be smart" way of thought... and that is subject to alteration with staff changes.

Also you know, many of the guys are PO'ed because they like to hunt or whatever pre/post work, but don't dare hang a FA on the truck rack.

I caution everyone to "adhere to policy" {i.e. don't get caught by the wrong people and find yourself terminated}.

Greenglock21
01-21-2006, 17:09
The latest Va. OEMS regs initially prohibited anyone, except sworn LEO, from carrying any "weapon," specifically stating firearms, when on any agency-licensed apparatus. This did not "intend to" include a knife carried in the performance of one's duty.




Thanks for the post. Until I read yours, I was going to switch to the OEMS/VDH website and post the reg stating that EMS providers cannot carry. I was hoping to save someone from losing their job. However, its great that the reg has been repealed- is there anywhere that I can confirm this further?

Also, because of the prohibition we have regarding firearms in vehicles, I have visited the General Assembly and left my request for the approval of House Bill 162. That bill, if passed, will make it illegal for employers to prohibit firearms in secured vehicles. I'd encourage all other VA FF/EMS Glockers to email their representatives as well.

Look for posts from "Fohmix" in the Glockers of the Old Dominion section of this site in order to get links to recent bills and our representatives. There are several carry issues being addressed this month.

Truckee
01-24-2006, 13:45
Hey Green,

Sorry for the delay, I'm OOT. Also, thank you for keeping an eye peeled on Virginia issues. There needs to be more of us paying attention.

VDH / OEMS will confirm their "non-enforcement" of the firearms regulation if you contact them... however, they're not making this known via website or any other means that I'm aware.

VCDL is making it known. I am unsure if they've posted a follow-up on their site (I'll check ASAP and EDIT as necessary). A quick email to VCDL and I'm confident they'll send all they know about this issue.

Keep up the good work...



Originally posted by Greenglock21
The latest Va. OEMS regs initially prohibited anyone, except sworn LEO, from carrying any "weapon," specifically stating firearms, when on any agency-licensed apparatus. This did not "intend to" include a knife carried in the performance of one's duty.




Thanks for the post. Until I read yours, I was going to switch to the OEMS/VDH website and post the reg stating that EMS providers cannot carry. I was hoping to save someone from losing their job. However, its great that the reg has been repealed- is there anywhere that I can confirm this further?

Also, because of the prohibition we have regarding firearms in vehicles, I have visited the General Assembly and left my request for the approval of House Bill 162. That bill, if passed, will make it illegal for employers to prohibit firearms in secured vehicles. I'd encourage all other VA FF/EMS Glockers to email their representatives as well.

Look for posts from "Fohmix" in the Glockers of the Old Dominion section of this site in order to get links to recent bills and our representatives. There are several carry issues being addressed this month.

Truckee
01-25-2006, 13:57
from VCDL update
"12/17/05 - VCDL Update 12/18/05 - Part 1"
http://www.vcdl.org/

*************************************************
7. Weapons ban in EMS vehicles invalid and not being enforced
*************************************************

For those who have been on this list for a while, you might recall
our efforts to get a repeal on a regulation that prohibited EMS
personnel with CHPs from carrying on ambulances. On January 17th,
2003 I sent out an update stating that we had won.

We did, but one part of the law was inadvertently left on the books.
A few of our members found this recently and one contacted the Office
of Emergency Medical Services (OEMS) about the problem.

The member was told that the OEMS was aware of the problem and the
regulation was NOT being enforced.

That's good but they need to get the regulation completely off the
books anyhow!

Here is the email from OEMS to our member:

From: Michael Berg
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:59 PM
To: xxx
Cc: Gary Brown
Subject: Weapons and EMS

Dear Mr. xxx,

As the Manager for the Regulation and Compliance Division for the
Office of Emergency Medical Services, Mr. Brown has asked that I
reply to your inquiry. Your question concerns the ability for EMS
providers to be able to carry weapons during the course of their
duties, especially while on an ambulance or responding to a request
for assistance.

When the current version of the EMS Regulations were being
promulgated (January 15, 2003), there was indeed a proposed
regulation disallowing the carrying of weapons by EMS personnel on an
ambulance. There was a mounted campaign against such a proposal and
indeed the proposed regulation was withdrawn. Unfortunately, in
another section of the regulations, specifically, 12 VAC 5-31- 700
EMS Safety (6) in part states, "Possession of a firearm, weapon, or
explosive or incendiary device on any EMS vehicle is prohibited,
except=8A" This was to have been removed during the revision process
and simply was an oversight. We have administratively directed our
field staff to not enforce this specific provision of the regulations.

I hope this answers your questions and addresses your concerns.
Please feel free to call on me should we be of any additional
assistance.

Michael D. Berg
Manager, Regulation and Compliance
Virginia Office of EMS
109 Governor Street, Suite UB-55
Richmond, Virginia 23219
(804)864-7615 (Office)
(804)864-7580 (Fax)
(800)523-6019 (Virginia only)
Michael.Berg{STAR}vdh.virginia.gov