rock river.... i dont know nothing

[jp 19]

i am intrested in getting a "black rifle" i really like rock river arms.... got there catalog and now i am more confused then ever.... went to there website and cant figure out the jargon ....."car" elite
tactical car ute 2.....just when i think i got A4 and A2 figured out i get all this other nomenclature...

i would like a rifle that will reach out to at least 600 yrds ....
i no nothing about MOA but i noticed some say accuracy is 1 MOA @100 yrds and other are 3/4 MOA @100 yards... does that 1/4 MOA make that much difference?

what i would like to do is spend as little as possible for starts but yet be able to upgrade.... i like a shorter barrel like 16" but how much will that affect accuracy? would i be better off with an 18" dont really want to go 20 or longer. i also like the adjustable stocks. do they all come with chrome lined barrels i thought i heard that unlined ones were more accurate....and what the heck is the detacable tactical handle doesnt look like a handle at all to me.

can i shoot 600 yrds with open sights... i am over 50.... see i have lots of questions

i guess the question is what RRA with match trigger would be a good starter that could be upgraded if i truely need too?
thanks for any help

just sign me
slightly confused and dazed......
;g

[SWolfe]

If you're wanting to reach out 600 yards, with irons, it's going to take a 20" barrel, a good sling, and a free-floated barrel (if you want to be accurate).

I'm decently knowledgable about AR15s, but if you want the straight dope check out these guys: www.ar15.com

Look for the AR15 forums, and post in there. You'll be squared away in no time.

Edit to say:

I like Bushmaster personally, but you can't go wrong with your ABCs. That is, Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt. DPMS and Rock River are good too. Building your own is a great idea too, and I personally would recommend that. You can get plenty of help from the AR15 guys.

[RMTactical]

Marines qualify out to 500 yards with M16A2's and iron sights. These are not super-accuraized AR's, just plain jane stock.

The 3/4 MOA guns would be better suited for extreme match quality where you shoot competition or what-not. Plain jane AR's are pretty dang accurate without any help from free floated SS barrels, and 2 stage triggers.

I'd look at the entry tactical model, it's very popular. These guns can easily be upgraded too. I wouldn't be worried about accuracy in the shorter barrel, it should be pretty close to what a longer barrel would provide.

Good luck, let us know if you have any more questions.

RRA is one of my favorites companies. You'd do good with them. Good value. Other good companies with a lot of bang for the buck are Bushy, DPMS, and Stag/CMT.

[DunedinDragon]

I sure am glad to see there's another "seasoned" person over 50 that has found himself infected with the evil Black Rifle Plague. I heartedly support the idea of hanging around ar15.com, even though they typically use a lot of nomenclature that's confusing. If you look you'll see a stickied discussion on General AR that has a rather complete glossary of terms being used. That's a great start.

As far as distance shooting with these poor old eyes, I'd highly recommend getting an EOTech sight. Although it's pricey it makes a BIG difference in long distance shooting, especially for us older guys that can no longer read the numbers on our wristwatches.

Beyond the AR itself, you'd be well advised to begin to understand some of the differences in the ammunition.
****IS> (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm) will give you a MUCH better understanding of that world.

Have fun brother...it's the most fun gun I've ever shot!!!

[centennial]

I would suggest one of RRAs Varmint models or the National Match model with a removable carry handle. That way, you could add a scope if you choose.
18-20" barrel if you go with the varmint. The NM only comes in 20".
I don't think the kind of accuracy you're looking for will be found in a gun that is not free floated.

[Andrew Tacquard]

500 with irons on an A2 and 10 out of 10 in the black a few months back. i was surprised how well the worn out bone stock 16 shot. trigger time and a stable shooting position should get you to 600. if i had my RRA 2 stage i bet it would have been even easier.

[SWolfe]

This is a good read, long but worth the time.

Ammo Oracle (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/)

I don't know how many of your questions it will answer specifically, but any AR15 owner should read this.

[jp 19]

thanks for all the info.... ar15.com is a real keeper....
but after looking at the ammo oracle.... and not reading it completely cause indeed it is a long read...... can someone answer this... on some of the rock rivers in the catalog it says caliber
.223/5.56nato and others say .223wylde.

does that mean you can shoot either .223 or 5.56 in the former and only .223 in the later?

also the difference between chrome moly
and chrome lined barrels. i believe chrome moly is an alloy.
and chrome lined is and actaul chrome (platiing?) inside the barrel.
and wouldnt the chrome moly tend to be more accurate? (tis what i heard)

again thanks for your time i didnt know this itch i got was going
to be so complicated....;P i mean i shot a glock "buy it, load it, shoot it........:)

ps.. DunedinDragon i like your choice of words "seasoned"
(to perfection) as apposed to "old fart"... never thought i would feel so young.

[SWolfe]

Chrome moly is a steel alloy. Most manufacturers use 4140 chrome moly steel, while Bushmaster and Colt use the superior 4150 chrome moly steel. Chrome lining is the plating inside of the bore. While the unlined barrels may have a slight edge in accuracy, I personally believe in the mantra that is the consensus on ARFCOM - "Go chrome or go home." It takes a LOT more rounds to foul a chrome lined bore.

5.56 and .223 are the same, except that 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures. The throat dimensions are a little different too, I believe. .223 is SAAMI spec while 5.56 is NATO-spec (or mil-spec, I forget which). The Wylde chamber is a hybrid that can shoot 5.56 ammo but is supposed to offer greater accuracy for .223.

Like I said before, hang out around ARFCOM a bit and you'll learn all you need to know.

Here's a comparison chart that Troy from ARFCOM made up:

http://www.tenringhosting.com/ViewImage.aspx?PID=d7d24b71-dfa1-4ef6-950f-3934b27c3d1a

[RMTactical]

If a gun says it's chambered for .223/5.56, it should be good to go for both.

If a chamber is only .223, don't shoot 5.56 in it. but you can shoot 223 in a 5.56 chamber.

223 Wylde is a bit of a hybrid chamber. It's loose enough to allow the pressure of the 5.56, but a little tighter resulting in a slightly more accurate round that loses less velocity. It will shoot both without issues.

In short, almost all AR's these days are chambered to shoot 5.56, and RRA is no exception.

Yes, plain old chrome moly is slightly more accurate than chrome lined bores. I'd recommend chrome unless this is strictly a target gun. You probably won't notice the difference in accuracy unless you are a target shooter.

Chrome lining will make it less prone to corrosion. More reliable. Easier to clean. Some say it will allow the projectile to reach a slightly higher top speed (less resistance).

[paulithepin]

Bought one several years ago and like it better than the Colt's or Bushmasters Ive owned over the years. Fit, finish, and accuracy are all excellent out of the box. Price very competitive as well. Great product, great service. Does take a while after ordering, but well worth the wait.
PC

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by paulithepin
Bought one several years ago and like it better than the Colt's or Bushmasters Ive owned over the years. Fit, finish, and accuracy are all excellent out of the box. Price very competitive as well. Great product, great service. Does take a while after ordering, but well worth the wait.
PC

Depends on where you order it from.

[DunedinDragon]

Originally posted by jp 19
again thanks for your time i didnt know this itch i got was going
to be so complicated....;P i mean i shot a glock "buy it, load it, shoot it........:)

ps.. DunedinDragon i like your choice of words "seasoned"
(to perfection) as apposed to "old fart"... never thought i would feel so young.

Complicated??? Heck that's half the fun of this whole Black Rifle disease IMHO. I prefer to think of it as challenging, versus complicated...but maybe that's the "old fart" in me talking.

If you think you feel young now, wait till you fire your new toy, it'll take a month to wipe the smile offa yer face!! As far as some of your other original questions, if you're really looking to do some long range stuff then you might find the 16" barrel to be somewhat limiting. The way I've approached this is I bought the 16" barrel with the telescoping buttstock. For long range stuff I intend to simply buy what's called a "Varminter" upper with a scope and bipod, so in effect I'll have one rifle and just switch the upper depending on what I want to do. That's one of the beauties of the AR15...flexibility.

One thing you'll probably discover, the iron sights are a bit hard to use for us old far....errr...seasoned guys whose eyes are not what they used to be. I ended up putting an EOTech sight on mine which helped A LOT.

As far as ammo, I have settled on using 5.56 XM193 loads. Once you read through the Ammo Oracle you'll understand why. Unlike your Glocks, the XM193 loads serve you well for both range work as well as self-defense against roaming gangs of zombies. There's really not much need to invest in hollow points as the XM193's shred once they enter dense material and actually do considerably more damage than a typical hollow point fired from a handgun. The only problem right now is the Federal Lake City XM193's are pretty hard to come by. You can buy them in bulk as XM193PD's, but you have to be very careful and inspect each round as those are the rds that failed QC. I bought 1000 of them recently and am about halfway through my box and so far have not had any problems.

Use >THIS LINK< (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=222888) to find out who has it and the prices. It's updated pretty regularly.

Like you, my other guns are Glocks. There's definately a lot more depth to an AR15 than a Glock just in terms of what it can do and how you might want to customize it, but that part of the whole AR15 mystique and fun.