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BikerRN
09-27-2005, 07:15
Had a close call yesterday and found out how good dual disc Brembo front brakes work.

Too good! I had a "blue-hair" in a Caddy cross 4 lanes of traffic without ever looking right or left going from one shopping center to another one that caused me to have to do a panic stop. The truck next to me also had to slam on his brakes too.

Anyway, since I'm just getting used to the bike I reverted back to what I would do if I was on my Harley, not good. I grabbed a handfull of front break and the front wheel locked up. It got real "squirrly" and the pucker factor was off the magnometer. I released the front brake, and then had to reapply it. When I got home I checked my tire, nice big bald spot.

This was a great wake-up call on the Brembo Brakes. They do stop you like nothing else out there. I honestly thought I was going down, but was fortunate that I've had some good training. I've been riding for 14 years, but always on a slow stopping Harley before this. Since we have a lot of blue hairs here I'm starting to think that once someone reaches the age of 60 they should have to take the written and driving test at DMV yearly.

The driving portion should have to be completed on a major city street, not some 25 MPH neighborhood. My Mother is 85 and still driving, and hates my idea. She thinks it's her God given right to drive until she dies. God I hate the AARP!

fnfalman
09-27-2005, 07:39
For panic stops, don't forget to apply the rear brakes as well. The sportbike riders generally don't rely a lot on rear brakes and that's a shame. My Tuono has very little rear brake. It's nearly worthless, but when applied in conjunction with the front, it helps slowing the bike down considerably.

BikerRN
09-27-2005, 10:21
If I could've reached the rear brake I would've used it. I had just shifted my feet on the pegs for a nice sweeping corner that I was going into.

Oh well, all's well that ends well.

beemerphile
09-27-2005, 10:52
Originally posted by fnfalman
For panic stops, don't forget to apply the rear brakes as well. The sportbike riders generally don't rely a lot on rear brakes and that's a shame. My Tuono has very little rear brake. It's nearly worthless, but when applied in conjunction with the front, it helps slowing the bike down considerably.

If the front brake can lift the rear wheel, how much brake is the rear brake adding? Also, the amount of concentration it takes to keep from slidng the rear when you are braking hard and the weight is transferred up front might be better spent in plotting your trajectory (or praying). This assumes no antilock and sufficient tires and front brakes to lift the rear - (read most sportbikes!). If the tires and front brakes are anemic, then the rear can aid considerably in braking effort and is worth the concentration costs. Antilock eliminates the need to concentrate on brake modulation and skid prevention, so go ahead and grab a handful. However, don't be too quick on the sportbike guys about disregarding the rear in a quick stop. Sometimes it is the right thing to do. - Lee

beemerphile
09-27-2005, 10:54
Originally posted by beemerphile
If the front brake can lift the rear wheel, how much brake is the rear brake adding? Also, the amount of concentration it takes to keep from slidng the rear when you are braking hard and the weight is transferred up front might be better spent in plotting your trajectory (or praying). This assumes no antilock and sufficient tires and front brakes to lift the rear - (read most sportbikes!). If the tires and front brakes are anemic, then the rear can aid considerably in braking effort and is worth the concentration costs. Antilock eliminates the need to concentrate on brake modulation and skid prevention, so go ahead and grab a handful (or foot full). However, don't be too quick on the sportbike guys about disregarding the rear in a quick stop. Sometimes it is the right thing to do. - Lee
accidental repeat. Slow computer user / fast computer. - Lee

fnfalman
09-27-2005, 14:30
Originally posted by beemerphile
If the front brake can lift the rear wheel, how much brake is the rear brake adding?

Using the front brake alone will lift the rear wheel (aka Stoppie). Using the front brake AND rear brake won't lift the rear wheel, or at least not to that great of a degree. Why? Simple physics. When the front brake is hit hard; assuming that the front is powerful enough to induce a Stoppie, the rear wheel still turns at a high rate of speed. This induce more angular momentum on top of the moment arm created by the front wheel stopping and the rest of the bike wants to move. If you slow the rear wheel down, then it would have less angular momentum to add to the whole mess and chances are you won't do a Stoppie. Not to mention using both brakes to stop a bike is better than using one brake to stop the bike even though 90% of a sportbike's stopping power is with the front.

Talking about wheels' angular momentums, if you notice that the professional stunters, when they pop a wheelie, they also use the front brake to stop the front wheel from turning so that they can use their throttle inputs, rear brakes and body positioning to steer the bikes.

And it doesn't require any extra concentration to use the rear brake if you practice using it during your many stops.

As far as locking the front and/or rear brakes during panic stops, that can be mitigated by practicing panic stops. I do on my bikes when they were first new and now and then to remind myself. ABS on the Beemers are great, but ABS can fail and Mr. Murphy's Law dictates that chances are it will fail at the worse time.

Know your bike and know your ability. That's what it comes down to. I'm sure that I am on the conservative side (p$ssy side if you will), but I won't even attempt to get too spirited with a bike until I get at least 2000-miles on it in order to get the feel for things.

c5367
09-28-2005, 19:03
I doubt I would use the rear. I've ridden all my life and was originally taught to use it w/ the front. After doing a couple track days, I've stopped using it all together, and will continue not to until I learn to trail brake. Engine braking proves sufficient (for the rear) even when dragging the bike down from 120+ to 30 for a tight turn.

The key is to NOT grab a handful of front brake, even in emergency braking maneuvers. The sudden loading of the front tire is what causes it to slide. If you allow the suspension the fraction of second it needs to transfer more weight, than you can use the front to its full advantage. When braking at maximum potential, nearly 100% of the weight will be on the front, meaning the rear is virtually useless for stopping power and prone to locking.

Compy
09-29-2005, 16:28
My bike came with a rear brake. I paid for the rear brake. My right foot isn't doing anything else. I might as well use the damn thing. In an emergency, I'm going for every possible advantage my bike can offer.

fnfalman
09-29-2005, 16:56
Originally posted by c5367
I doubt I would use the rear. I've ridden all my life and was originally taught to use it w/ the front. After doing a couple track days, I've stopped using it all together, and will continue not to until I learn to trail brake. Engine braking proves sufficient (for the rear) even when dragging the bike down from 120+ to 30 for a tight turn.

The key is to NOT grab a handful of front brake, even in emergency braking maneuvers. The sudden loading of the front tire is what causes it to slide. If you allow the suspension the fraction of second it needs to transfer more weight, than you can use the front to its full advantage. When braking at maximum potential, nearly 100% of the weight will be on the front, meaning the rear is virtually useless for stopping power and prone to locking.

I agree with you, but we're talking about street riding and emergency stopping and not track or sportive riding. We're not talking about feathering the rear brake and front brake in a turn, or using the rear brake to skid out the rear tire for better alignment on a tight corner. We're talking about stopping in the shortest possible distance while remaining in control.

When it times to do emergency braking, you need all the braking power you can muster. Locking the rear brake is like locking the front brake - YOU MUST KNOW YOUR VEHICLE'S PERSONALITY. You must learn how to modulate your brakes on YOUR bike. If you don't know what the braking threshold is on your bike, then you need to find out. Either that or get a BMW or a Honda VFR or a Ducati ST4 that can be equipped with ABS and even then ABS doesn't mean you can hamfisted and footfisted the brakes.

And as I explained before, the rear brake may not offer much stopping power, but just to decrease the rear wheel's spin alone helps with the unintentional stoppie. And as long as the rear wheel is on the ground, you still have the chance of maneuvering.

Once again, we're not talking about track riding, racing or canyon carving here. Use your rear brake a bit too aggressively in a turn and you're asking for a low side that probably results in a high side when you panic and release the rear brake then apply throttle.

It's all coming down to whether or not you have the basic riding techniques down and whether or not you know how your vehicle would perform under duress.

There is a handful of guys who would hold these emergency handling sessions in a big parking lot once every other month for novice riders to come and practice without having to worry about getting ran over or flying off a cliff. Naturally, if you drop your bike then it's on you. But at least they're out there trying to promote ride safety.