View Full Version : Head Positioning
First let me tell all, I am now a proud owner of a Bushmaster M4. No bells or whistles...
Went to the range for the first time today and noticed I like to have the collapsible stock (6 position) closed by one notch. It is comfortable for me. Secondly and the question I have for you all...
When I get in position, I notice I get right up on the sights... I am so close that my right nostril is sitting on the left side of the chargeing handle. Is this normal? I ussually sit farther back on my bolt actions, so this is all new to me. I don't remember being that close way back when I was in the military....
Dean,
P.S.
I guess this seals my fate... I can NEVER go back to Cali!!! (Like I wanted to ;g )
You are doing it right. If anyone is putting more space between their nose and the charging handle, move up and touch it with your beak and compare the group sizes. They will be tighter.
USMCsilver
09-30-2005, 15:40
FWIW, most M16 instructers command that the nose touch the charging handle. Rest assured that it's normal and also correct. ;)
RMTactical
09-30-2005, 16:21
The more and more I deal with AR's, the more I think collapsable stocks aren't as cool. I mean, you want this consistent cheek weld, and switching the stock around like crazy will throw that off. Plus, collapsable stocks are not quite as sturdy as fixed stocks.
You appear to be doing well. Nose to the charging handle! Remember that.
SW.FLA.glocker
09-30-2005, 16:29
Originally posted by GoreLicks
The more and more I deal with AR's, the more I think collapsable stocks aren't as cool. I mean, you want this consistent cheek weld, and switching the stock around like crazy will throw that off. Plus, collapsable stocks are not quite as sturdy as fixed stocks.
You appear to be doing well. Nose to the charging handle! Remember that.
Let us remember that the reason for touching the tip of the nose to the charging handle is to ensure the "consistent stock-cheek weld". Changing of the style of stock should not change the distance of the eye from the sights. That distance is what gives you a consistant sight picture.
Don't mean to sound preachy but my Army training still seems strangely familiar.
RMTactical
09-30-2005, 16:35
Originally posted by SW.FLA.glocker
Let us remember that the reason for touching the tip of the nose to the charging handle is to ensure the "consistent stock-cheek weld". Changing of the style of stock should not change the distance of the eye from the sights. That distance is what gives you a consistant sight picture.
Don't mean to sound preachy but my Army training still seems strangely familiar.
Yes, I understand and agree, but you still have to adjust is what I am saying. It's a bit annoying is all.
Fixed stock, collapsible stock...I'm nose compatible.
USMCsilver
09-30-2005, 17:32
Originally posted by GoreLicks
Plus, collapsable stocks are not quite as sturdy as fixed stocks.
Hmph. With tradional 3,4, or 6 positions, I'll agree. However, when it comes to Magpul's stock, well, I think you're a bit off.
Well at least I know natural in this case is right...
As for the collapsible vs Non-collapsible... I have tried a friends fixed stock and it is uncomfortable... The 6 position works for me. Never tried the Magpull... Going to go stock for now and learn my weapon... Then move up to ubber cool stuff later. (Would rather spend the $$$ on ammo... By the way... I reload for my .45 GAP... Is it cost effective to reload .223?)
Oh, and thanks for the replies....
The main use of the gun will be Three gun shoots. And just general plinking.
USMCsilver
09-30-2005, 21:03
Originally posted by NCUrk
[B]Is it cost effective to reload .223?
Depends. I mostly shoot Wolf .223, so it is hard to get much cheaper. Also, the brass is trashed after fired.
For the time that goes into reloading, I don't think that it could ease the wallet except for a few pennies per round. I'd rather buy Wolf in bulk and shoot the hell outta it and not worry about messing with the press.
DeadMansLife
09-30-2005, 21:10
Originally posted by NCUrk
Is it cost effective to reload .223?
Sure. If you like chasing brass all over the range, cleaning it, inspecting each and every piece, rework the mil brass, THEN start the rest of the reloading process.
Time=$$$
RMTactical
09-30-2005, 21:49
Originally posted by USMCsilver
Hmph. With tradional 3,4, or 6 positions, I'll agree. However, when it comes to Magpul's stock, well, I think you're a bit off.
I disagree. I'd say the ACE SOCOM stock is the best as far as sturdiness goes, but I don't think even it compares with the sturdiness of a fixed stock.
USMCsilver
09-30-2005, 21:53
Originally posted by GoreLicks
I disagree. I'd say the ACE SOCOM stock is the best as far as sturdiness goes, but I don't think even it compares with the sturdiness of a fixed stock.
My Magpul will beat your ACE's ass!
~woohoo~ ~woohoo~ ~woohoo~
RMTactical
10-01-2005, 01:42
As to the cost effectiveness of reloading .223, it depends on what bullets you are reloading. If you are reloading match ammo, you can save a ton compared to what you would pay anywhere else. As far as reloading plinking ammo, well, I guess if you have a lot of time on your hands or just enjoy reloading...
Originally posted by USMCsilver
My Magpul will beat your ACE's ass!
~woohoo~ ~woohoo~ ~woohoo~
Well, I don't actually own an ACE stock, but I'd get it over the magpul.
NC22_Glockster
10-14-2005, 08:09
Originally posted by NCUrk
Well at least I know natural in this case is right...
As for the collapsible vs Non-collapsible... I have tried a friends fixed stock and it is uncomfortable... The 6 position works for me. Never tried the Magpull... Going to go stock for now and learn my weapon... Then move up to ubber cool stuff later. (Would rather spend the $$$ on ammo... By the way... I reload for my .45 GAP... Is it cost effective to reload .223?)
Oh, and thanks for the replies....
you went to B&R didn't you!?
I live 15 miles from ya. MHC.
I go there myself.
Ever see a 5'7" guy with a 20" SS HBAR, and he kinda looks like a LEO ( I am not one)?
I am off to Range-1 in FayetteNam today.
Maybe cya Sat there or Flatwoods
OutintheWoods
10-14-2005, 08:58
Originally posted by NCUrk
First let me tell all, I am now a proud owner of a Bushmaster M4. No bells or whistles...
Went to the range for the first time today and noticed I like to have the collapsible stock (6 position) closed by one notch. It is comfortable for me. Secondly and the question I have for you all...
When I get in position, I notice I get right up on the sights... I am so close that my right nostril is sitting on the left side of the chargeing handle. Is this normal? I ussually sit farther back on my bolt actions, so this is all new to me. I don't remember being that close way back when I was in the military....
Dean,
P.S.
I guess this seals my fate... I can NEVER go back to Cali!!! (Like I wanted to ;g )
The idea isn't so much where you put your nose or cheek, but that you put it in the same place everytime.
The charging handle is a good place for three reasons. It's easy to remember and repeat consistently, and for most shooters its allows a natural repeatable posture and cheek weld on the stock.
That why a collapsable stock is useful, especially for smaller shooters. It allows one to change the pull of the stock depending upon their size, instead of adjusting their body to the rifle which can cause unnatural adjustments that require muscular tension to hold it there.
pevrs114
10-14-2005, 11:01
Originally posted by OutintheWoods
The idea isn't so much where you put your nose or cheek, but that you put it in the same place everytime.
The charging handle is a good place for three reasons. It's easy to remember and repeat consistently, and for most shooters its allows a natural repeatable posture and cheek weld on the stock.
That why a collapsable stock is useful, especially for smaller shooters. It allows one to change the pull of the stock depending upon their size, instead of adjusting their body to the rifle which can cause unnatural adjustments that require muscular tension to hold it there.
The adjustable stock is also good for when you are changing what you're wearing. I'm a small guy anyway (5'7", 160lb) and an A2 stock is too long for me in any way but the traditional Camp Peery standing position. In any modern combat style, I cannot reach the sights or get a good steady hold on the rifle. I much prefer the collapsible stock. Add body armor and I'm totally screwed.
I'm a proponent of the nose-to-charging-handle school as well. The first time I ever shot an AR series was in basic training, and that's the way they taught. Guess it stuck. It hurts the cartilage of my nose, and if I heavily oil my weapon, I get hot oil in the eye. I've learned to scale back on the oil (not EVERYTHING they teach in basic is right, by the way!) and I just deal with the nose pain. At least I have a consistent cheek weld.
If you don't like the charging handle, another trick I've seen is 100mph tape or large inner tube rubber bands around the buttstock. This (at least on an A2 stock) allows you a consistent cheek weld that you can feel with your face, and ensure you line up correctly every time.
Originally posted by NC22_Glockster
you went to B&R didn't you!?
I live 15 miles from ya. MHC.
I go there myself.
Ever see a 5'7" guy with a 20" SS HBAR, and he kinda looks like a LEO ( I am not one)?
I am off to Range-1 in FayetteNam today.
Maybe cya Sat there or Flatwoods
Just got back from B&R as a matter of fact...
Had a 3 gun today. Did OK till I missed two targets on the shotgun portion... Will missed is an overstatement... I plan flat never saw them. So 15th out of 20 ;C Better luck next time. Still had fun and thats what counts... (Atleast thats what I'll continue to say untill I get up to and stay in the top 5 :) )
Deep Blue
10-15-2005, 17:24
In order to put my nose to the charging handle, I have to crane my neck uncomfortably foward. My natural head position seems to be with my cheek on the border between the stock and the buffer tube. Different body shapes require slightly different techniques I guess, cause it works for me.
I am from the nose to tha charging handle school as well, and I can Agree the A2 Stocks are really uncomfortable, However I switched in an A1 Stock and its almost perfect (I Sanded the rear of the stock down another 1/8th an inch) and its extrememly comfortable.
Big Bird
10-15-2005, 21:45
The folding stock comes in handy when you are in MOPP4 or are wearing body armor and your helmet. Or when you are hugging a very small piece of cover all scrunched up and need to shoot. Or bunched together in the back of a Bradley or 113. Or any other dozen or so odd circumstances you will find yourself in when you NEED to shoot something...
Well I went out to my first three gun with it today... I didn't even know anyone had a camera until afterwords. He sent a few pics. Hope you all don't mind.
And yes... I can shoot both ways.
NC22_Glockster
10-15-2005, 23:42
I think I met you last week!
I had a Bushy with a SS 20" HBAR.
Did you or you buddy have your kid with ya?
Yep,
That was us.. You were two benches down from me. With the holotech (sp?) sight.
NC22_Glockster
10-16-2005, 07:47
yesser, HAHAHAHA
small world huh?
I may have to try my hand at one of those matchs'
I gotta get a mid lenth upper first.
Hell I gotta get my butt back to work FIRST.
I go back today, and Ill be running hard for about 6 weeks.
With a quick break to come back and p/u my CCW in a week or two.
Maybe we can all get togeather and do some shootin'.
Originally posted by NCUrk
I am so close that my right nostril is sitting on the left side of the chargeing handle. Is this normal?
Nothing like getting a charging handle latch in the schnozz...
Or the surprise of discovering you didn't latch it all the way in...
J/K, Anyhoo, try the TIP of the nose.
Originally posted by AnimalK
Nothing like getting a charging handle latch in the schnozz...
Or the surprise of discovering you didn't latch it all the way in...
J/K, Anyhoo, try the TIP of the nose.
Always make sure it is seated before fireing... (Of course now that I said that... I will hurt myself when I shoot next ;g )
And as for the nose... Been broken so many times, There is hardly any cartlidge left. So it just bends anyways. (Nope, never by a gun)
halfmoonclip
10-29-2005, 12:56
Anyone have a clue who they were trying to please with the A2 stock?
I'm shooting bunches better with the A1, and bringing the gun to my eyes rather than vice-versa.
I still can't quite get my schnozz to the charging handle, but I don't have much of a schnozz...
Moon
Originally posted by GoreLicks
The more and more I deal with AR's, the more I think collapsable stocks aren't as cool. I mean, you want this consistent cheek weld, and switching the stock around like crazy will throw that off. Plus, collapsable stocks are not quite as sturdy as fixed stocks.
You appear to be doing well. Nose to the charging handle! Remember that.
In order to get a consistant cheek weld through the different positions- standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, etc- I find an adjustable stock to be a must.
One of the nice features of the Magpul stock is being able to set the presets and go to the same stock position for the same shooting position every time.
Originally posted by halfmoonclip
Anyone have a clue who they were trying to please with the A2 stock?
I'm shooting bunches better with the A1, and bringing the gun to my eyes rather than vice-versa.
I still can't quite get my schnozz to the charging handle, but I don't have much of a schnozz...
Moon
Col. Dave Lutz is the progenitor of the A2 stock. It was originally designed for the USMC rifle team.
FWIW, I do not put my cheek to the charging handle (hate that feeling) and I like a collapsible because I want to be able to extend it for prone, and collapse it to sully stock length or shorter for upright shooting. I have a magpul M93 and love it.
halfmoonclip
10-29-2005, 22:29
Originally posted by Zagger
Col. Dave Lutz is the progenitor of the A2 stock. It was originally designed for the USMC rifle team.
Zagger-
The guys on that team must have been able to police their brass without having to bend over...
Oddly, I was told at a service rifle seminar that the Marine Marksmanship Unit has been experimenting with resting the buttstock ON TOP of the shoulder, drawing the sight close to the eye, and presumably creating a 'cheek weld' between the face and the shoulder.
Moon
MrMurphy
10-30-2005, 08:31
Halfmoon, this is standard practice among those screwed with an M16A2 in close quarters (thanks, USMC Rifle Team.....).
Doing urban warfare training, I generally cranked my M4 stock all the way down, cause I need it that short to maneuver in hallways and kick doors open. For general purpose use, one click open. Up on top of a deuce, all the way open.
My #2 man had an M16/M203 and was a short Mexican. Between the two of us, due to far FAR more familiarity with the weapon (he'd never shot one before basic, I've got multi-thousands of rounds through them and years of experience with them) I probably should have had the 203, but that's the way it goes. They also put the most experienced doorkicker/urban warfare guy (me) up front. He, to even engage anyone at close range without bashing his rifle off of stuff, had the A2 stock over his shoulder with the pistol grip literally touching his shoulder much of the time (very close quarters).
Some of the tight turns I had to make, I had the M4 all the way shut and still over the shoulder. Generally speaking though, as soon as we were past the tight spots, rifle went back into normal shooting position.
halfmoonclip
10-30-2005, 14:13
Mr. Murphy-
The long-range marksmen brought us the M-14 and now the A2. So it goes.
I presume your grenadier doesn't try to fire blooker rounds with the stock over his shoulder. ;)
A tall-glass-of-water cityboy in basic didn't like the recoil of the M-79 when first he fired it. He held it AWAY from his shoulder for the next round, and that shot put him right on his derriere...
Anyway, I'm bunches happier with the A1, and I may try an adjustable sometime just to see how it feels.
Best,
Moon
nose to charging handle.i disagree with that 1 i have tried it. 2 i have seen the BRM scores with this techniuqe.3 soldiers have told me they can't shoot as good this way as they did back home.
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