Build my own or save for complete?

[Jackyl]

Alright guys so I've been wanting an evil black rifle for a while now. I have been looking at AK's (VEPR to be specific) since they can be had for less than an AR, but I would still want an AR since I would most likely get an AK-74 (.223) anyway. I have also been eyeballing the Kel-Tec SU-16C/CA/D models simply because they are more affordable, but again, it's no AR. Basically I want a super tough SHTF rifle rather than a sniper.

I'm thinking instead of going cheap, I can slowly dump money into an AR build on a budget. I LOVE to do things myself, and I can research / spec out exactly which individual parts I want as I go. I think it would also have more personal value / meaning this way. I have no idea how difficult it would be however. Is it do-able? Would I be better off to try an AK build instead?

What are the major components involved in a build and approx. how much should I look at budgeting for each major component? What total price range could I expect to be able to build one for? Is there significant savings to be had over purchasing a completed rifle? How much work can I do at home and how much has to be done by a smith? Are their expensive tools to buy that can't be justified for a single build?

There is a company in Missouri that builds AR's I'm thinking about supporting being a Missourian myself. Can anyone tell me the company and their opinions of them? Any particular companies I should look into specifically? Tips / opinions / advice? Better to get a complete lower or do it all piece by piece? I want to end up with a rifle that will have the same reliability and ruggedness as a Glock...dirty and all. I hear AR’s have somewhat of a sensitive recoil system when it comes to being clean.

I've read and read and read the forums over the years about AR's before getting too serious about doing anything and the amount of information is simply mind-numbing so it's a little intimidating to say the least, but I'm thinking I can have fun with it. Thanks for your time guys, anything you have to offer is appreciated!!!

[Tim84K10]

What configuration AR are you interested in?

[RMTactical]

That is a loaded question(s)!

Too slowly start building an AR and going as your budget allows is a good, sound way to approach it. You should start out with a stripped lower receiver. It will need to be mailed to your FFL and transferred through him in order for you to have one mailed. It is the "gun", according to the ATF. It will cost you anywhere from $85-150 usually, depending on where and who you buy from, and the quality.

From there, all other parts can be delivered directly to your home. The assembly of the lower is easy with instructions from www.ar15.com and some patience.

Another advantage of building is that you can customize your AR to fit your needs/desires down to the last detail. AR's are easy to build. MUCH easier to build than an AK. I have built AR's but I am building an AK right now, and it's much more complex.

Also, I refinish my AR's with Gun-Kote and give it some other special "custom" touches that you just can't get for the most part without paying out the ass...

Let me list some of your expenses if you build a bare bones rifle, prices will include shipping.

Lower $110 (we'll this is what it cost you after transfer fees etc)
LPK $50
Buttstock $55 (complete with buffer, spring, etc...)

So, that's your complete lower for about $215.

Upper receiver $95 (complete)
B/BC/CH $125
barrel $190
handguards $20
BUIS $70

And that's about $500 for your upper, so about $715 total, not including all the tools too build( another $70-100). Now, the numbers I put down are assuming standard prices (no specials) at reputable dealers, and all brand new parts.

Granted, you could do it cheaper, but you have to search like a dog on the AR15.com EE and maybe buy a few used parts (which you may not want to do) or less quality parts.

In reality, you can buy a gun for about this price (all said and done), with close to the same quality, but it may not be to your exact specifications.

Don't be fooled by the old stigma attached to AR's from the Vietnam era. They have come a long ways, and they are pretty dang reliable. There is a fella on here who claims to have shot somewhere in the vicinity of 4k rounds of Wolf through his without a cleaining and no jams. I've never experienced issues with mine, although I keep mine clean. They are not difficult to clean.

Good luck and let us know if you have anymore questions.

[Jackyl]

Thanks GoreLicks, that helps a lot!!! Thought it would be much more than that. Guess I first need to start looking into which receiver to get, then internals? So internals come as a kit? Is there a step-by-step FAQ / walkthrough on AR15 or is it all found by searching old threads? After the lower is complete, then I find a complete upper, barrel, then furniture and I'm pretty well set? How many trips will I need to make to the smith for things I won't have tools for, etc.? Are their milled and stamped receivers? Forged and not forged? Difference between AR and M16 receivers like AK and RPK's or are M16 receivers not legal? Is it a no-no to mix brands / internals / receivers? Do some brand parts work better with others like a magic combination? ;) Do all parts come in standard parkerized finish or do I need to match finishes or look at one in particular. I don't want to have to worry about surface corrosion ever. Would be nice to be able to shoot in a light shower if need be.

I'm not sure what you mean by what configuration. I want probably a 16" - 18" barrel (carbine) with a break / FH on threaded bbl., telescoping stock, trick looking fore end with rails, good iron sites and probably try out a red dot some time. Don't know if I want a flat top or the handle, etc. Probably flat top with rail so I can add a scope if need be.

[Jackyl]

I found a lower receiver how-to on AR15. I listed a nice older laptop in the Want-Ads section if anyone has any build parts to swap.

[RMTactical]

The internals of the lower are the LPK (lower parts kit) which contain trigger, springs, mag/bolt release, etc...

Here's your assembly instructions.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

You won't need any special tools to complete the lower besides maybe a stock wrench for a collapsable stock. Unless you buy a complete upper, you will need a few tools for the barrel installion and stuff, or you could have a smith do it. It's not that it's hard to do, but you need the tools to do it. If you buy a complete upper, you only have to mate the two halves (easy as hell), no tools, no smith.

If you build your own, I highly recommend you get the tools and do it yourself. I've built up many AR's, but I have also altered almost as many... You will almost surely be making changes in the future. If you plan on building more than one, then you really need to do it all yourself.

No stamped receivers with AR's. They are almost all forged/milled aluminum receivers (avoid the cast receivers) with an anodized coating that hardens the aluminum. Some (such as DPMS) have a teflon coating on them as well that improves quality.

I don't believe M16 and AR15 receivers are different. It's the trigger group that will make the gun FA. I don't know all of the laws regarding M16 parts and AR15 parts...

MOST AR parts interchange. It is looked down on by some, but I do it will all of my builds as I am looking to get the best parts for my guns by the best manufacturers. For instance, I prefer 4150 steel barrels, so I my 3 AR's have 2 Bushmaster barrels and a Colt barrel (some of the few that sell 4150 steel barrels). I prefer CMT bolt and bolt carriers. In some cases, there are many good brands you can use for a given part.

Just to give you an idea, my 3 AR's have parts from CMT/Stag, RRA, Bushmaster, Colt, and DPMS. None of them are made with one exclusive brand.

You may have to match finshes. I refinish mine, so I don't worry about matching colors. It also gives the gun a better overall finish that it would otherwise.

Configuration... It is the different arrangement of parts... The AR offers an almost unlimited amount of different configurations. Part of it's beauty.

Flat top upper (A4) or carry handle(A1 or A2). 20" barrel, or 16", 14.5"., 24"... Fixed stock or collapsable? to free float or not? 2 stage trigger or standard single stage? Fixed sights or flip up sight, or no iron sights at all? I could go on forever...

Sounds like you want something like the top AR in this pic.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/AR-Twins008.jpg

[Jackyl]

Yea, that is nice man...yours? With a 14.5" bbl. you have to have an integrated FH into the bbl. to make it 16" don't you? What lengths does the 5.56 rd. like? Good to hear about the upper not needing any special attention. If I were to build the upper myself, about $70-$100 for the tools you say? I figure something like that would be pretty common in the exchange section (used) wouldn't it? What's the advantage of the 4150 bbl. over the alternative? How does one learn what parts have the edge over another...by searching the forums? Thanks again for taking the time...you about have me convinced I can do this. ;a

[Jackyl]

...so I can buy a complete upper and barrel seperate to save on immediate expense w/o having to get special tools? As far as price and ease of finding ammunition, should I consider .223 or 5.56 NATO chambering?

[ElConquistador]

I haven't seen many used tools but it sounds like you're taking your time so keep an eye out. I'm using a DPMS wrench and a Brownells vise-block, they're around $30 each from www.brownells.com you may also want a torque wrench and a headspace guage.

There are a lot of people on this board and others that know way more than me but near as I can tell AR15s are a piece of cake to put together. It's really more just assembling parts than "building". All I have done is swapped a barrel and stock but I'd like to put together another AR or two in the next year or so.

Gorelicks,
Do you airbrush the GunKote or rattle can it? Do you just do the upper/lower or do you hit the barrel etc. too? Have you tried any colors or just black?

`s

[ElConquistador]

Originally posted by Jackyl
...so I can buy a complete upper and barrel seperate to save on immediate expense w/o having to get special tools? As far as price and ease of finding ammunition, should I consider .223 or 5.56 NATO chambering?

not sure what you're asking. The only thing you need tools for is to put the barrel on the upper. You can buy a complete Stag upper for $350 from www.eaglefirearms.net it's already put together and would save you buying the tools. Stags are chrome lined but I don't know if they're 4150 or 4140, some say it doesn't matter if they're chrome-lined. There are other complete uppers, the Stag is just an example.

Most barrels you find are going to be 5.56, you can shoot .223 out of 5.56 but not vice-versa.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by Jackyl
Yea, that is nice man...yours?

No, not mine. My brother and I assembled these two rifles for some friends of ours.

Originally posted by Jackyl
With a 14.5" bbl. you have to have an integrated FH into the bbl. to make it 16" don't you?

Yes, the total barrel length must be at least 16" total, so the flash hiders in that pic are fixed. Note, an A2 flash hider won't make the 14.5" barrel long enough so you need a phantom or a vortex.

Originally posted by Jackyl
What lengths does the 5.56 rd. like?

I think 14.5 is the minimum you'd probably want to go for general use. The 5.56 relies on fragmenting to do serious damage so velocity is a factor. For reliable fragmenting you need at least 2700 fps for your standard XM193 55gr or XM855 62gr. Some other bullets have lower frag thresholds but need a heavier bullet and a faster twist to stabilize the bullet.

Here is how the velocity looks like from the different lengths for 55gr XM193.

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg483p/BallisticsA.gif

Originally posted by Jackyl
Good to hear about the upper not needing any special attention. If I were to build the upper myself, about $70-$100 for the tools you say? I figure something like that would be pretty common in the exchange section (used) wouldn't it?

Maybe... You'll need some action blocks to hold the upper and a vice for them as well. You'll also need an armorers wrench.

Originally posted by Jackyl
What's the advantage of the 4150 bbl. over the alternative?

It's just a stronger steel. Probably not a big deal as 4140 is a good grade too but milspec calls for 4150. I'm just picky.

Originally posted by Jackyl
How does one learn what parts have the edge over another...by searching the forums? Thanks again for taking the time...you about have me convinced I can do this. ;a

It's a little bit of asking around combined with finding out for yourself. I've done both with good results.

Originally posted by ElConquistador
Gorelicks,
Do you airbrush the GunKote or rattle can it? Do you just do the upper/lower or do you hit the barrel etc. too? Have you tried any colors or just black?

`s

Airbrush.

I do the lower and upper and the barrel.

The pic I already posted doesn't do it justice at all (my camera sucks!!), but the bottom of the two AR's was done in a green. Look closer and you can see the contrast.


We've done that green on a few, also we did one in a grey as you can see in my avatar. Here is the original pic.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/ARin.jpg

The rest have almost all been in black or a different "shade" of black.

However, in this pic, you can see the two AR's my brother owns that he did with Duracoat in a camo design. (once again, the pic doesn't do justice)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/HBAR-Stag004.jpg

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by Jackyl
...so I can buy a complete upper and barrel seperate to save on immediate expense w/o having to get special tools? As far as price and ease of finding ammunition, should I consider .223 or 5.56 NATO chambering?

Go 5.56 because 5.56 chamber can shoot .223 and 5.56 but 223 chambers can only shoot 223.

Read this.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

[DreamWeaver88]

Originally posted by GoreLicks
Go 5.56 because 5.56 chamber can shoot .223 and 5.56 but 223 chambers can only shoot 223.

Read this.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

Yeah, but according to people at ar15.com, they've fired thousands of rounds of 5.56 out of barrels marked .223 with no ill effects.

DW

[Jackyl]

Great info here...thx. Anyone have any idea who the MO AR manufacturer is? I can't seem to remember and for some reason Google isn't producing any results for me.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by DreamWeaver88
Yeah, but according to people at ar15.com, they've fired thousands of rounds of 5.56 out of barrels marked .223 with no ill effects.

DW

Many barrels marked .223 are actually 5.56 chambers.

[Fenris Wolf]

For an inexpensive lower that is complete look Here (http://www.eaglefirearms.net/stag_arms.htm#Lower%20Receivers). Same price as Gorelicks quoted for do it yourself, but already assembled(plus shipping of course). There are many companies that offer complete uppers, decide what type you want and search around.

[OutintheWoods]

Originally posted by Jackyl
Alright guys so I've been wanting an evil black rifle for a while now. I have been looking at AK's (VEPR to be specific) since they can be had for less than an AR, but I would still want an AR since I would most likely get an AK-74 (.223) anyway. I have also been eyeballing the Kel-Tec SU-16C/CA/D models simply because they are more affordable, but again, it's no AR. Basically I want a super tough SHTF rifle rather than a sniper.

I'm thinking instead of going cheap, I can slowly dump money into an AR build on a budget. I LOVE to do things myself, and I can research / spec out exactly which individual parts I want as I go. I think it would also have more personal value / meaning this way. I have no idea how difficult it would be however. Is it do-able? Would I be better off to try an AK build instead?

What are the major components involved in a build and approx. how much should I look at budgeting for each major component? What total price range could I expect to be able to build one for? Is there significant savings to be had over purchasing a completed rifle? How much work can I do at home and how much has to be done by a smith? Are their expensive tools to buy that can't be justified for a single build?

There is a company in Missouri that builds AR's I'm thinking about supporting being a Missourian myself. Can anyone tell me the company and their opinions of them? Any particular companies I should look into specifically? Tips / opinions / advice? Better to get a complete lower or do it all piece by piece? I want to end up with a rifle that will have the same reliability and ruggedness as a Glock...dirty and all. I hear AR’s have somewhat of a sensitive recoil system when it comes to being clean.

I've read and read and read the forums over the years about AR's before getting too serious about doing anything and the amount of information is simply mind-numbing so it's a little intimidating to say the least, but I'm thinking I can have fun with it. Thanks for your time guys, anything you have to offer is appreciated!!!

I like my Eotech 512 equipped SU-16C better than any AR I've owned and I've owned a few, as well as carried an A-1 in the Marines.

The best part about it, the Eotech and the SU plus accessories (tactical sling kit, tactical rifle case, etc..) together cost less than a basic AR, and also weighs less than a basic AR.

Take my word for it, if you saw it in action you wouldn't want any part on the receiving end of it. It does the job, and routine cleaning takes all of 5 minutes.

AR's are great and by all means get one if you like. But the SU is definately something to consider.

[Jackyl]

I've narrowed my lower selection to Mega, RRA, and Stag...though I haven't looked very closely at Bushmaster yet. I like what I've read about Mega/ MMS, and the lack of a website and mainstream distribution makes me want one even more. I hate having things everyone else has. Also, Mega uses 7076 al. instead of 7075 which is higher quality isn't it? Still forged I assume? I hear the Mega lowers are REALLY dark black so I'm wondering what upper I would need to get to match closely. Does anyone offer a complete upper (with barrel and all) that has a trick rail system fore end?

[Jackyl]

Update:

I have a Mega lower in the way, as well as a RRA LPK, RRA 6-pos. telescoping stock, Ergo ambi-grip, and Denny's anti-walk pin kit. I found a deal on a CMT standard upper but have been advised not to install it on a Mega lower. Looking into that right now. I had intended on a 16" M4 barrel with M4 cut CMT, but many are telling me not to bother with M4 cuts and I discovered yesterday that Bushmaster doesn't use M4 cut barrels. I'm pretty sure I'm going with an MP checked CMT BCG so I want the 4150 MP checked barrel to go with it.

Another issue, I like the look of the 14.5" M4 but the 16" is looking a little strange to me. I want to free float so I'm weary of going to a 14.5". I also wanted the ability to change FH's. I am thinking a middle length 16" barrel with mid length rail system would look more "balanced" with the longer barrel and FH. What to do...what do to.

[RMTactical]

Why would a Mega lower and a CMT upper not be compatable? Color?

Bushmaster DOES in fact make an M4 barrel. I own one.

I think I'd go with the 16" if I were you. Added velocity, ability to swap out FH's, at only a small price in length.

My latest build was done with a 16" superlight Bushmaster barrel. Turned out great.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/9-22-05Marshall189.jpg

I hate heavy barrels.

[Jackyl]

I know they make M4 barrels, I plan on getting one...but they do not use the M4 cuts on their barrels, so no point in getting an M4 cut upper. :) I don't know why I was advised not to use that combo, but have decided to go ahead and find out for myself. It's on the way.

I have also decided to not use the H buffer and instead do like I do with my Glocks...leave it be until there's a problem. ;)

[RMTactical]

Well, CMT makes uppers with M4 cuts and without.

I don't think you need the M4 cuts, esspecially since it won't be FA.

[Jackyl]

I hear ya...I was after an M4 cut CMT upper till I found out Bushy doens't use em. Luckily I found out just in time. Thanks for all the advice man...can't wait for it to start coming together.

[scottMO]

Jackyl,

CMMG out of Fayette MO makes lowers, I have 2 of them. Both were bought as a stripped lower and I added the LPK from Brownells. I have no complaints w/anything from CMMG as they are great guys!!

They also host monthly shoots which include pistol, rifle and often shotgun. there are also plenty these of Full-autos to play with.

enjoy your AR build.

scottMO

[Jackyl]

Hey man, been a while!!! I still owe you some shooting...maybe we can hook up down there when I'm finished?

[Jackyl]

Update:

[ElConquistador]

http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL584/3219216/8439986/116270141.jpg

That looks pretty good! I think Mega has the best logo out there, I like the Gator look too.

What upper did you end up with? Any decision on the barrel yet?

[Jackyl]

CMT T-Marked, and I'm looking at a Sabre or Denny's 16" middy. Thanks.

[Fenris Wolf]

Jackyl, looks nice. Don't forget about RRA for middys, I recently bought a RRA middy upper and am very happy with it.

[Jackyl]

Phantom 5C2, Sabre 4150 CMV 1:9 chrome lined barrel, switched CMT upper for Mega "MMS" marked upper, & swapped in an ISMI flat wire recoil spring. She's comin along nicely!!!

[FontanaHorseman]

Great thread - since I am about to try the same thing!

Any special build tools you have bought?

FH

[Jackyl]

You should pickup a $5 CAR stock wrench and a set of roll pin punches from Sears, etc. You'll need more if you plan on installing your own barrel. I figured I'd have Denny assemble my upper since I don't yet have a shop. This won't be my only build that's for sure. ;a

[DunedinDragon]

Originally posted by Jackyl
You should pickup a $5 CAR stock wrench and a set of roll pin punches from Sears, etc. You'll need more if you plan on installing your own barrel. I figured I'd have Denny assemble my upper since I don't yet have a shop. This won't be my only build that's for sure. ;a

AWWWWWW...c'mon. You know it's not going to be the last you build, so get that shop built and assemble your upper!!! While you're at it through on a FF front, low gas-block, and some extra goodies to boot. End up with this:
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/dgeorge14/1st%20build.JPG

[FontanaHorseman]

Hey Dragon,

Pic didn't come thru can you post link?

Give list of what I need broken down as:
Must have
Like to have
Dream World

Thanks, FH

[DunedinDragon]

Don't know why some folks are having probs with this...

anyway click HERE (http://web.tampabay.rr.com/dgeorge14/1st%20build.JPG)

[Jackyl]

Just finished my first build tonight. Here are some pics. You have to copy / paste or the links won't work...sorry.

http://www.f150online.com/galleries/images/129-213-143709.jpg

http://www.f150online.com/galleries/images/129-213-143708.jpg

http://www.f150online.com/galleries/images/129-213-143707.jpg

http://www.f150online.com/galleries/images/129-213-143710.jpg

http://www.f150online.com/galleries/images/129-213-143711.jpg

- Mega upper / lower receiver
- RRA LPK
- CMT BCG (MP checked)
- Sabre Defence 16" Middy (1:9 chrome lined)
- Phantom 5C2
- Samson MRFS-M
- Troy BUIS (SKD version)
- Surefire 6P w/ KL3 head clickie TC
- VLTOR flashlight mount
- RRA 6-pos collapsible stock
- David Tubb ISMI flat-wound recoil spring
- CMT H buffer
- D-Fender extractor D-ring
- KNS S.S. anti-roll pins
- GG&G SlingThing
- Ergo ambi sure grip and Ergo low-pro rail covers
- Blue Force Gear / DSG IDF sling
- D&H black T 30 rd. mags.

Case of Q3131 on the way. Soon to come: EOTech ;a

HUGE thank you to ARFCOM and all you asshats who helped make me poor!!! ;f