I'm a freak...please assure me it is OK to keep AR mags loaded for a long time.

[mixerman]

I don't know why, but I need some people to tell me it is OK to load AR mags for SHTF and leave them alone for extended periods of time....even years. It is OK right? Thanks for tolerating this kind of nonsense.;Q

[Bushw@cker]

Yes, perfectly fine, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It is the contraction and expansion of the spring that wears it out, not sitting contracted.

[RMTactical]

Perfectly fine. I've heard of mags being left loaded for decades and being shot without a problem.

The stress of loading and unloading is what will wear out your springs.

[mixerman]

What about loading them with a round or two less....is that nonsense as well?

[mixerman]

Hey Gorelicks, I love the phrase uber-tactical...I try to use it on a daily basis. I used it last night while me and my wife were shopping, the kid behind the counter looked at me like "what?" It's kinda like Kolob, it just does not get used enough.

[Bushw@cker]

Originally posted by mixerman
What about loading them with a round or two less....is that nonsense as well?

More or less, yes. The downloading thing came from the Vietnam era when soldiers would accidently put the spring in backwards after cleaning. This would cause binding in some instances when loaded to full capacity. If everything is put together correctly, a 20 rounder should hold 20 and a 30 rounder should hold 30. It's the way they are meant to be loaded.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by mixerman
What about loading them with a round or two less....is that nonsense as well?

From the Oracle

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#storemags

"Q. Shouldn't I be loading my mags with a few less rounds? If I load them to capacity doesn't that cause reliability problems?
There are three stories about how this got started:

1. If a 20 round magazine was disassembled and reassembled with the spring connected to the follower backwards, it wouldn't feed reliably when fully loaded due to the spring binding in the mag. Downloading the magazine to 18 became a habit in some circles "just in case," though eventually this problem was discovered, and solders were instructed never to separate the follower from the spring, which virtually eliminated this problem.

2. Many magazines can be loaded without obviously excessive force to 21 rounds, and because ammo was issued loose in boxes during the early Vietnam era, this happened frequently. The result was often that the first round wouldn't chamber because it was held too tightly in the magazine. This is not a good thing in a firefight, so early in the history of the M16 it became habit to teach shooters to load 18 in a 20 rounder just to be safe. Again, the root cause was eventually addressed, and ammo began to be issued on stripper clips, which eliminated the need to count individual rounds when loading mags.

3. Some tactical squads download their back-up magazines by one round to make a tactical reload (which is done with a round chambered and the bolt forward) easier. This is because of the reduced upward pressure on the rounds.

#3 is probably the only real reason to consider downloading your magazines, though it is generally not necessary.



Q. Can I store ammo pre-loaded in magazines for an extended period of time? Won't the magazine springs wear out and cause feeding problems? Shouldn't I rotate my mags?
Shouldn't be a problem;

No and;

Probably not.

What wears out springs are cycles of compression and expansion and also over-compression. So, every time you "rotate" your mags, you are causing additional wear by cycling the spring. Loading and unloading magazines will cause more problems than loading and storing them for good. For best results USGI magazines are probably the best bet because many aftermarket magazines use cheap springs.

One AR15.com member reportedly discovered a fully loaded 20 round USGI mag that was loaded in the Vietnam era. 20 some years later it not only functioned fine but continues to do so. Others have reported 1911 mags and Luger mags loaded up since World War II that continued to function perfectly when first fired after 40 years.

When you're ready to pack them away, you can fit 28 loaded USGI 20 round mags in a .50 cal ammo can if you lay them down sideways 4 to a layer. You can also fit 14 USGI 30 rounders this way, with a lot of slack space left over.

.30 cans will hold 14 USGI 20 rounders laid flat without a hitch."

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by mixerman
Hey Gorelicks, I love the phrase uber-tactical...I try to use it on a daily basis. I used it last night while me and my wife were shopping, the kid behind the counter looked at me like "what?" It's kinda like Kolob, it just does not get used enough.

Yeah, I was trying to think of something for under my name to make me sound cool and mall-ninjaesque at the same time... That seemed to fit the bill. :cool:

Glad you like it. I'll try and use Kolob once a day from now on. ;f

[Bushw@cker]

The Ammo Oracle is our friend. :cool:

[mixerman]

Thanx for your help Gorelicks...:)

[mixerman]

You too Bushwacker...:)

[glock19_fan]

nice thread. ;b

[nipperwolf]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369

[Yojimbo]

Originally posted by Bushw@cker
More or less, yes. The downloading thing came from the Vietnam era when soldiers would accidently put the spring in backwards after cleaning. This would cause binding in some instances when loaded to full capacity. If everything is put together correctly, a 20 rounder should hold 20 and a 30 rounder should hold 30. It's the way they are meant to be loaded.

Some of us download so it's easier to do insert the mag with a closed bolt.;)

When doing tactical reloads having 28 rounds helps ensure a smooth reload and lessens the chances of improperly seating the mag when using the push pull method.

This has nothing to do with spring issues, it's just a technique that has worked well for me that I learned from people who've forgotten more about fighting with guns than I'll ever know.

[G19Tony]

Originally posted by Yojimbo
Some of us download so it's easier to do insert the mag with a closed bolt.;)

When doing tactical reloads having 28 rounds helps ensure a smooth reload and lessens the chances of improperly seating the mag when using the push pull method.

This has nothing to do with spring issues, it's just a technique that has worked well for me that I learned from people who've forgotten more about fighting with guns than I'll ever know.

I do the same thing. The magazine seems to seat easier in the well. I learned the technique from a friend who was an Army Ranger.

[Riverweasel]

Originally posted by Yojimbo
Some of us download so it's easier to do insert the mag with a closed bolt.;)

When doing tactical reloads having 28 rounds helps ensure a smooth reload and lessens the chances of improperly seating the mag when using the push pull method.

This has nothing to do with spring issues, it's just a technique that has worked well for me that I learned from people who've forgotten more about fighting with guns than I'll ever know.

That is absolutely correct.

-2 per mag is what I use, and what I was taught to use.

Pat Rogers had this to say while explaining the necessity of "push/pull" while doing tactical reloads. Emphasis added by me.
Wise men will heed his words.

It is interesting that this has suddenly become an issue...
(But i'm glad to see it!). On some of the other forums it has taken on the the sincerity of an ephiany, but this has been in use for oh, maybe 20 years or so.
Moose appendage awards aside, the majority of problems at class are shooter induced.
We start off by telling everyone to load only 28 rds in the mag- yet in every class some of the shooters will ignore this and load 30- resulting in the delays while they will try various and sundry methods of trying to force a mag into the well that won't go.
Remember why we have the gun in the first place- to launch bullets at an opponent. Happy guns are also loaded guns. If the mag won't go in, get a new one and quit showing the class how stupid you really are.
"Tapping" magazines with the bolt open can- and will- cause rounds to "volcanos" into the upper receiver. Clearly this happens more with older mags (as well as the plastic mags), but why have two techniques for loading??????.
I saw this happen twice over the weekend in WV.

Magazines are not all the same. Some mags won't go easily in because the body has been spread due to damage (how about dropping that loaded mag on a hard surface? Do that a few times and see what happens. This is another reason to use Magpuls).
Metal fatigue and abuse will give you grief after a while.
Use good mags when training and fighting. For those that insist on using beaters at class, consider that you won't be learning much when you are frustrated.

Mag catches can likewise be problamatic. They wear down just like everything else.

On the rainy cold days when you have no meaningful chores to accomplish, break out your magazines and try them out in your firestick.
If they don't easily insert/ extract, why not?
Number your mags and keep track of what happens with them.
Discard those that don't work.
The AWB is over. Brownell's has 30 rd mags for $12.00 and change. Get a bunch.

The mag is the feed device that keeps you alive. Make sure that yours are GTG.

[OutintheWoods]

There's another issue with older straight 20 rounders.

If you load more than 18 rounds in some mags the upward pressure can sometimes effect bolt velocity which can on occasion cause stovepipes in the first round or two. I don't load these mags with more than 18 rounds. This occurs with some mags and not with others.

I have two such mags with metal followers. One is perfectly reliable with 19-20 rounds. The other isn't. Go figure.

This doesn't seem to be an issue in curved mags of either capacity. Not sure why.

Lightly lubing the underside of the bolt is also a good idea.

Otherwise I usually load one or two shy of capacity in all my mags and have no issues.

Maybe just superstition but it seems to work.

[racine]

I thought I'd share an article from an engineer about gun springs;

"...My other post follows:

I am a Mechanical Engineer. I cringe every time Am Handgunner treads into the field of engineering. Journalists who don't know what they are talking about should consult someone who has actual technical training.

Creep does happen in ferritic materials.

Plastic deformation does happen in over compressed or over extended springs. The question is one of proper spring design and choice of the correct metallurgy. All of the generalizations in the Am Handgunner article have extremely common exceptions. All of those generalizations reflect "invincible ignorance" on the part of the writer.

Whenever I read this nonsense in Am Handgunner I think I should write a letter. Then I think why waste my time?

Ever wonder why your recoil spring gets shorter with use? It is because the spring design is such that whatever steel Wolff uses creeps or even yields under the cyclic compression loading. The metal MUST move for the spring to become shorter at rest. There's no other way it can happen. BTW that's ferritic material.

Ever wonder why this happens faster with a Wolff spring than it does with an IMSI spring? Because IMSI (or Nowlin) uses Cr-Si alloyed steel, which (as heat treated) has a higher yield strength than the Wolff metallurgy, so the Yield Strength of the material is much higher, and the creep process is much slower.

This is not a subject for simpletons looking for a one size fits all answer. In some mags the spring may be very lightly loaded, or overengineered. In others, the opposite may be the case. The ultimate answer is tied up in the interplay of spring loading and design criteria, combined with choice of metallurgy.

You would have to understand the design criteria for the mag (some are really hard on the spring because of how many rounds they're trying to jam in there with a really short follower). You will have to understand the metallurgy of the string. Was it heat treated right? How do you know? If strain hardened, did the spring maker draw the material right? How do you know? Do you even know that the material is certified at the claimed composition?

Notice how one poster said some springs have done fine, and others failed quickly? Probably a QC problem with spring metallurgy or heat treat. Inconsistent from batch to batch.

This is why aerospace and military manufacturers require "certifications" for metallurgy and heat treat. The answer changes completely based on little details.

That AH blurb was typical of the type of uninformed drivel that they've been printing lately. Ever since they went to the format that has several blurbs on a page, their reporting has gotten less and less in-depth, and more and more generalized. And in technical subjects, generalizations are for fools. It is a technical subject BECAUSE THE LITTLE THINGS MAKE A DIFFERENCE. But these guys are too ignorant to even know what the little things are. That stupid writer may get someone killed.

In the meantime I'll be sure there are fresh springs in my carry mags.

BTW the ultimate strength of metal in a spring is irrelevant. Ultimate strength is the loading where the metal comes apart. In a spring design you don't want to go over the yield strength (another concept that Am Handgunner got garbled up). The definition of yield strength is a bit complicated, but suffice it to say that it is the point where the metal begins to plastically deform. "Plastically deform" is engineer-talk for "bend"

For those interested in actual knowledge on the subject, find a copy of "Mechanical Engineering Design" by Shigley and Mitchell. In my 4th ed (1983), Chapter 10 is devoted to spring design. Chapter 4 includes a section on Creep, and section 4-5 details creep effects of time and temperature on ferritic materials.

Here's an idea. How about we take all of our questionable springs and send them to that writer so he can install them in his carry gun's mags? Maybe we should make the offer!"


I've rarely found a magazine spring that holds it's tension over the years especially the double stacks. Single stacks for some reason are not so prone to failure. As a habit, I've always rotated mags every 6 months or so. I do collect several mags for all my firearms and observe spring fatigue on those I use a lot. Not to worry as it's just the cost of owning a good tool. ISMI Chromium Silicon springs are another matter. Though they still fatigue, they do so much less than say the other brands- by a significant margin...
HTH you gain insight...
:soap: :soap:

[Sir Hacksalot]

I had a batch of USGI 30 rounders that were loaded in say 1999...I went to the range and emptied a bunch of them without a hitch.

Hax