Rem 1100 Comp Master vs Win SX2 Practical in 3-gun matches?

[DHart]

Just curious to know which shotgun seems more common in 3-gun matches and if either one seems to be a better or more reliable shotty for 3-gun shooting...

[rhino465]

The Remingtons are more common where I've been.

I don't think either is inherently better or more reliable (nor is the Benelli). It's all going to boil down to the specific gun you buy, what ammo you use, how you choose to modify it, and how you maintain it.

[DHart]

rhino... thanks for the post... I've gotten the impression from others that what you're saying is true. One other gun that is recommended by some who are involved in 3-gun matches is the Browning Gold, which I understand is very similar to the Winchester SX2.

I have a brewing shotgun "addiction" going on and will probably wind up with all three (1100, SX2, and Gold) at some point... just looking for some info from other's experiences...

[Halfcocked]

Watch out. Shotguns can be very addictive. :)

[rhino465]

Addictive, indeed!

DHart ... for your Remington, you might want to bypass the competition master and just have a stock 1100 or 11-87 built the way you want it. It won't cost much more, and may cost significantly less than a new CM. You will get exactly what you want, and whomever you choose to build it will be responsible for making it work properly. JP is probably a good place to start.

I too lust over a Winchester SX2 Practical Mk I, but I have other priorities! Until then, my old 1100 will have to continue carrying the 3-Gun load for me! I'm screwed if it goes belly-up in a match, though, as I need a short stock and very few people I know at the nearby matches have stocks shorter than the factory standard.

[DHart]

I'll be picking up my 1100CM (paid $650 NIB) tomorrow.. so that will be fun. At this point I'm thinking I'll leave it as is and shoot it that way unless I find I must modify it for some reason. The addiction is getting worse... the other guns I hope to acquire over time are:

FN Herstal Self-Loading Police Shotgun (basically a short SX2 tactical gun)
SX2
Gold
391
S2

I'd like a good set-up for 3-gun, another for HD, another for skeet/trap, and one for sporting clays.

[rhino465]

He's hooked! He has the fever!

;f

[DHart]

rhino... I do know how these addictions go.... my first major addiction was for 1911's, Colts in particular. The only way I survived that one was through massive aquisitions. Finally the fever subsided to a constant warmth... then the Smith & Wesson addiction hit... that was a bad one too... again quelled through frequent administration of heavy doses of "wheel steel". Now that I've lived through both of those... and just when I thought I was home free to enjoy minor dabbles with a few Hi-Powers, a Kahr, some cowboy guns, lever rifles (minor addiction there), a Beretta Storm... this shotty thing took me by storm.... sheesh. Oh well... life is short and I do believe in trying to have as much enjoyment as possible during the brief stay on earth.... firearms certainly do offer some great enjoyment! I can see how many of you have gotten shotgun addictions.... there are certainly a lot of cool shottys available... we're really fortunate, aren't we!

[9x45]

If you are serious about 3-Gun, post at BrianEnos.com. The guys that hang out there are only competitive shooters. I see a few Winchester SX2's at matches, but hardly anymore. They were all the talk a few years ago, but then the SX2's quit feeding ammo, and nobody understood why. I have never, ever, seen any Browning Auto used in any 3-Gun. The predominant shotguns, the ones used by shooters who win, are Benelli's and Remington 1100/11-87's. That's about it...

[DHart]

9x45... I spent about seven hours combing through BrianEnos Forum last night and there was huge support for the SX2 on that forum, with the Gold not far behind. Certainly plenty of support for the 1100's and Benelli's as well. Seems to be two basic camps; recoil operation fans (the Italian lovers) and everyone else, the gas operation fans. Fortunately, there are quite a few great shotguns available to us.

I had a brief chance to pop off a mag full (8 rounds) of 00 Buck through my new 1100CM tonight out on my property, just a brief function and pattern test... went splendidly.... really enjoyable! I can see that I'm going to have a lot of fun in the world of semi-auto shotguns! It's only just begun. ;a

[rhino465]

Feed it fairly stout hunting loads with #4 shot and you might avoid a lot of headaches, both with function and with knocking over pesky steel! A modified choke is a good thing too.

I think I'd have a Colt addiction if I had the $$$ to actualize it. Actually, it would be a 1911 addition in general, as I would not limit myself to the pony guns. Although I do want an XS gun some day (as discussed on 1911forum).

[DHart]

The addiction is taking over... I tried to resist the lure of this FN SLP Self Loading Police (basically a tactical Winchester SX2 - FN owns and builds Winchesters & Brownings) with 18" barrel, 6+1 capacity, ghost ring sights... but today I gave in... ordered one, should be here next Wednesday... I don't intend to use it for 3-gun but for HD.

Here's the scoup on it:

http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_selfloading.htm

[9x45]

Dhart,
Search as much as you like, but I am only offering my personal observations from 3-Gun matches. You will not have any problems with heavy shot thru your 1100CM or SX2's. Try feeding WalMart dust in combination with heavy 4's and low recoil slugs...
In 3-Gun stages their is a combination of clays, poppers, plates and slugs. That is the test. And what is 6+1? You are either Limited at 9 to start, or Open, at 11 to start.
Your post was relative to 3-Gun, Home Defense is a different subject. Good Luck on you choice. Let everyone know how your gun performs after 200 rounds of mixed loads...

[DHart]

9x45... yes, please forgive me. I started by asking about 3-gun and then mentioned that I got the FN SLP for HD use.

Most likely I will use my 1100CM for 3-gun and the FN SLP as a fun gun and for defense, once it proves reliable. 00 Buck is all I plan to rely on with the FN.

[DHart]

Update on my new 1100CM...

As expected, 00 Buck runs like a top in the new gun.

But being brand spankin' new, I expected some cycling issues with light ammo and I got them...

Winchester Super X Game Load 2.75", 3.25 Dr Eq, 1 oz., #6

will not cycle. Not a big surprise... I was told to expect this, at least initially, with 1 oz. loads, due to the stiffness of the new recoil spring.

A subsequent test with:

Estate Heavy Game Load 2.75", 3.25 Dr Eq, 1 1/8 oz., #6 shot shells

proved smooth and totally reliable. Amazing what a difference just 1/8 of an ounce will make!

Then

Estate Super Sport Competition Target Load 2.75", 3 Dr Eq, 1 1/8 oz., #7 1/2 shot shells

cycled 5 of 6 shells, but one of them didn't quite push the bolt far enough back to eject the shell.

It seems the new gun wants 3 1/4 Dr Eq and 1 1/8 oz. to cycle reliably at this time.

A follow up with another 8 shells of

Estate Heavy Game Load 2.75", 3.25 Dr Eq, 1 1/8 oz., #6 shot shells

flew in and out of the shotgun as fast as I could pull the trigger... WHAT FUN! Oh man... I feel like a kid in a candy store. Semi-auto shotguns are waaaay more fun than I had any idea they would be!!! (Can't wait to get my hands on the FN SLP).

As has been suggested on Brian Enos' 3-gun forums, for a week or two I will store the new 1100CM with the bolt locked back to soften the recoil spring tension a little. And to help "wear-in" the gun, I'll be pushing a lot of the aforementioned Estate Heavy Game loads through the gun. So far, I'm really liking this shotgun!

And I've got to get some slugs to test too.

I don't expect I'll be taking this shotgun into any 3-gun competition until next spring, so there will be plenty of time to thoroughly wear it in and test it out in the laundry room. (I use stacked fir rounds as a backstop, but unfortunately, shotgun blasts sure chew through that wood quickly... got plenty of sawdust!) I'm going to mix in lots of outdoor shooting as well.
;)

[Mark L Miller]

Laundry room? ;g HMMM, I don't think that would go over at my house. hahahah. MLM

[TC Rider]

Originally posted by rhino465
Addictive, indeed!

DHart ... for your Remington, you might want to bypass the competition master and just have a stock 1100 or 11-87 built the way you want it. It won't cost much more, and may cost significantly less than a new CM. You will get exactly what you want, and whomever you choose to build it will be responsible for making it work properly. JP is probably a good place to start.

I too lust over a Winchester SX2 Practical Mk I, but I have other priorities! Until then, my old 1100 will have to continue carrying the 3-Gun load for me! I'm screwed if it goes belly-up in a match, though, as I need a short stock and very few people I know at the nearby matches have stocks shorter than the factory standard.
;z Good Post

I bought the Competition Master, but if I was to do it again, I'd go the 11-87 route. I ended up replacing the gray furniture with a Speedfeed stock and will probably add a ghost sight at some point.

FWIW, the Rem and the Winchester both shoot far better than I'm capable of.

[DHart]

I don't know from first hand experience, but I get the impression that the 11-87 is less tolerant of a wide variety of loads it will cycle vs. the 1100.

With full charge loads, I'm sure they're solid reliable, but there seem to be more reports of cycling problems with lighter fodder in 11-87's than with 1100's... so the choice might depend on what fodder you like to shoot.

If you're happy with 2 3/4" loads, the 1100 will possibly serve with a wider variety of fodder. Wilson Combat stopped making their customs on the 11-87 platform because of some reliability issues. With full charge ammo, the 11-87 is probably totally reliable.

[rhino465]

It depends on which 11-87 you get. The "real" 11-87s have an adjustable gas system. Some of the others that are sold as 11-87s do not and are effectively 1100s (like the 11-87P).

Either way, it's a great gun if you treat it right.

[DHart]

I wonder which one Wilson was using for their custom - whichever one it was apparently didn't work out real well. I agree, though, that treated properly, I'm sure an 11-87 is a great shotgun.

Going back to the original content of the thread... I now have both the 1100CM and a Winchester SX2 Practical Mk I to compare... picked up the Winny just today.

After getting my 1100CM, I was very jazzed about that shotgun (and I still am), but now that I've got a Practical to compare it to, I'm really wowed. They're both great shotguns, but the Practical Mk I is really a slick machine with some features which give it the advantage.

This afternoon I bought the Winchester and disassembled it down to the trigger group, cleaned out the preservative, lubed it up with FP-10 (my favorite cleaner/lubricant/protectant) then went out on my property and proceeded to push a box of 25 Estate Heavy Game loads (3.25 dram 1 1/8 oz. #6 shot) through the gun. Not a bobble or stumble of any kind and at least half the box was shooting as rapidly as I could... the gun just flies and loves doing it! It's early yet, but perfect reliability using the lighter load gas piston so far. I think I'll stick with 3.25 dram 1 1/8 oz loads for the first 200 rounds or so as a break-in before I try the really light loads. My intended use for the gun is to be one of my home defense shotguns, so full pop 00 Buck will be what I load it with for "duty".

Here are some of the features of the Practical that I prefer over the 1100CM:

• the bolt release is easier to access and nicer to operate;

• the mag extension (permanent) is much smoother and more securely done and much better protected (it's inside the outer protective sleeve that's visible)... and it doesn't require a securing bracket. If the aluminum protective sleeve over the mag tube gets dinged or damaged, it can be replaced in about 5 seconds, just unscrew the mag cap and slide the sleeve off the gun - the extension itself stays in place and operational. The design of the entire mag extension on this gun is a master-touch, in my view.

• the built-in, cantilevered rail is really nice to add a holographic or other sight with no further ado (looks cool too);

• the flip down rear sight is very useful, convenient, and well designed

• the ability to use different gas pistons makes for great flexibility;

• no rubber o-rings to have to replace;

• the SX2 has the front sling attachment on the front of the forearm vs. having to use the barrel/tube bracket on the 1100CM (I don't like the bracket).

• the SX2 is easier to load... the carrier/elevator is a breeze to push up out of the way... with the 1100CM you have to make sure the shell pushes the little "release" lever which is nestled inside the carrier.

• the gun is designed to operate at amazing speed, capable of 5 shots in just 1/2 second - you can potentially empty the gun of it's 9 rounds into an attacker before the first empty hull even hits the deck! (This speed isn't really "necessary", but it's sure nice to have when you want it!)

None of these differences in the Practical, taken individually, are necessarily huge, but they all add up to make for a superior shotgun. Add to that the presumed longer life of the components (1100 parts are not known for longevity - from what I hear anyway) and that makes the SX2 just a head above the 1100CM in my book.

Things I prefer with the 1100CM:

• Slightly shorter LOP (about 13.5" vs. 14" with the Practical)

• Slightly shorter overall length (the 1100CM is nearly an inch shorter than the Practical)

• The forearm feels more solid and not "hollow" whereas the forearm on the Practical feels just a bit less solid and has a little "hollowness" feel to it.

• The entire gun has a solidness to it that just edges out the overall feel of the SX2... and I think most of this lies in the solid feel of the stock & forearm, nothing to do with the receiver.

• The fiber optic front sight is a tad larger and easier to pick up.

Personally I'm happy with both the 1100CM and the Practical... they're both great guns. But if I had to give one up, I'd keep the Practical for sure!

http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/Win Pract Mk I.jpg

[rhino465]

Nice review ...

I have to agree that given 100% reliability for both, the SX2 Practical looks better on paper (which is why I want one!). The sights are excellent, and well suited both to gun games and more important tasks.

Once you get a Benelli M1S90 too, you'll have to see which can cycle faster. I know the article in Front Sight a while back indicated the SX2 was measurably faster, but the Benelli kool-air drinkers won't believe the numbers. So we need more numbers from you! ;f

[DHart]

rhino... I seriously doubt that I personally, as a shooter, could approach the speeds these guns are capable of firing at. I wouldn't mind having the Benelli someday... that would be cool to try. I do prefer the softer recoil of the gas operated guns, though. My soon to arrive FN SLP is likely to be what I think is the best home defense shotgun going... we'll see!

[jobob]

Never thought I'd actually LIKE shotguns. Always thought of them as necessary evil. Then it became apparent at the last local match that my old 870 was just not going to cut it in 3-gun, especially since I have a tendency to short stroke it. So, I just picked up a used 11-87 Special Purpose (not sure what the 'purpose' is). I love it! It isn't torture to shoot it! It's working with everything I've put through it so far, and it's actually fun to shoot! Why have I been ignoring gas operated semis for lo these many years? All I need is an extended magazine (on order from Brownell's) and some ways to strap about 100 rounds to it, and I'll be set! Oh, and an Easyloader, which is backordered.

Guess I've got the 'bug' too.

[DHart]

jobob... I'm totally with you... congrats on your newly acquired 11-87... I understand your thrill with it!

I really do wonder why it took me so long to recognize what fun and what an amazing thing a good gas-operated semi-auto shotgun is. Now that I have the 1100CM and the Practical, with an FN SLP on the way... I'm very, very impressed with the reliability and potency of self-loading shotguns... the semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun is the last type of personal firearm I would ever want to have to personally face! The firepower and potency is mind boggling. When you consider that an SX2 Practical can be shot empty of 9 rounds of 00 buckshot in about 1 second.... WOW. Add to that that they are reliable and, sheesh... what more could one ask for in a defense tool than a semi-auto shotgun?

TCRider... I'm interested in knowing why, in hindsight, you would choose the 11-87 over your 1100CM? Has the 1100CM let you down in any way or is it simply that you can achieve similar end with less expense in going with the 11-87?

[rhino465]

Originally posted by jobob

Then it became apparent at the last local match that my old 870 was just not going to cut it in 3-gun, especially since I have a tendency to short stroke it.

That's a very important point about overall reliability. A lot of critics of self-loading shotguns say pumps are more reliable, which may be true when addressing the mechanism by itself. In operations, though, I've seen a lot more pump gun malfunctions due to short stroking than I've seen self-loader malfunctions.

Sure, it's partly a training/practice issue, but it's also an issue of body type. Thick torsos and short arms predispose someone to short stroking pump guns, especially with standard length stocks.

[jobob]

Are you commenting about my weight?! Just because I swallowed a basketball, are you saying that my gut is interferring with my ability to operate a pump? I'm insulted! ;)

[DHart]

The "treatment" for my addiction is nearly complete... an FN SLP has come to me. I'll post another thread in the HiPower Shotgun folder for it...

[rhino465]

Originally posted by jobob
Are you commenting about my weight?! Just because I swallowed a basketball, are you saying that my gut is interferring with my ability to operate a pump? I'm insulted! ;)


hehe ... if the spandex fits, wear it!

I say this as one of the most "cirumferentially enhanced athletes" in the action shooting sports. I may have been Number One for a while (when I was about 650), but now I'm a sinewy 425-ish for the last few years.

My freakishly short arms do not enhance my fun with a pump gun, although I used to do pretty well with my Mossberg 500A. I did well with it against the local pump gunners, but I got sick of the bruises. I didn't realize the stock was way too long and that I wasn't supposed to mount the gun on my bicep. ;P ;g I have since learned the pleasures of the 1100 combined with a short buttstock and all is well.


This is an issue I think should be addressed with that new Remington 7615 pump action carbine (.223) too. I've seen people shooting it on "Shooting Gallery" on Outdoor Channel and it looked like two of the three could barely reach the slide and work it by grabbing it at the very rear. A significantly shorter stock would seem to be A Really Good Idea, but what do I know?

[Short Cut]

Originally posted by DHart
I'll be picking up my 1100CM (paid $650 NIB) tomorrow.. so that will be fun.

Great find and price, especially considering they were discontinued at the end of 2004. I think you'll be really happy with it. It shoots magnum buckshot softer than any other shotgun I've ever tried.

[ArnisAndyz]

DHart, where did you get your CM for $650 NIB? That sounds like a good deal. I picked up a pump HK Fabarm FP6 (great pump gun by the way) to go with my PTR91 (308) for Heman/Heavy Metal class, but I also "need" to put a setup together for Tactical class.

thanks

Andy

[DHart]

Andy... I found it on GoingBroker, being sold by a private party. He had been given the gun a year or so aga and never fired it... it literally was brand spanking new in the box. There were a couple of low ball bids for it already and the auction had a BuyItNow of $650, so I just stepped up and hit BuyItNow... seemed like a pretty good deal.

Nice gun for sure. Only trouble is I bought an FN SLP and Winchester SX2 Practical right after I got the 1100CM, so I haven't had much shooting time to give to the 1100CM (the other two shotguns are a bit sexier and lured me over!) They're all great guns, though.

Remington 1100 Competition Master
http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/1100CM.jpg

Winchester Super X2 Practical Mk I
http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/Win_PractMkI.jpg

FN SLP (Self Loading Police) - based on Winchester SX2
http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/FN_SLP.jpg

[ArnisAndyz]

Thanks DHart...I've been keeping an eye out for a good deal on a semi. Been also thinking about an 1100 20 gauge Youth model from wally world for cheap. It comes with a 21" chokable barrel and i'll I'd have to add is an extension. After seeing your shottys and reading your reviews i might just save up for an X2. Whats the difference between the mk1 and mk2?

[DHart]

The sights are the difference... I prefer the Mk I sighting system.

The SX2 guns are very, very cool.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/category.asp?cat=009C

[rhino465]

Me likey all three!