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Rosokill
10-05-2005, 12:19
See the movie Equilibrium. It's fantastic.

http://www.chud.com/news/oct02/oct28equilibrium.php3

Discuss gunkata.

With the proper training, could it be used effectively?

gr81disp
10-05-2005, 17:14
No.

Rosokill
10-06-2005, 07:26
Originally posted by gr81disp
No.

Ok....why?

Chad Landry
10-06-2005, 11:40
They may not be part of any traditional martial art, but there already exist "kata" for learning to use guns effectively.

Use of a firearm in combat is a martial art, and repetitive practice makes it an effective one.

So, "Why not?" indeed.

I must apologize for not being able to read the entire piece that you linked. Or maybe the author should apologize to me for writing such a rambling, nearly incoherent piece.

For someone who says he's been writing such reviews for so long, he certainly sucks at writing.

Rosokill
10-06-2005, 12:24
Originally posted by cjlandry
They may not be part of any traditional martial art, but there already exist "kata" for learning to use guns effectively.

Use of a firearm in combat is a martial art, and repetitive practice makes it an effective one.

So, "Why not?" indeed.

I must apologize for not being able to read the entire piece that you linked. Or maybe the author should apologize to me for writing such a rambling, nearly incoherent piece.

For someone who says he's been writing such reviews for so long, he certainly sucks at writing.

Agreed.

Roundeyesamurai
10-06-2005, 14:29
Originally posted by gr81disp
No.

I agree.

Here is a page containing images of "gunkata":

http://www.gunkatta.com/kata.htm

Flailing one's body around in a gymnastic way is not conducive to actually hitting a target.

Likewise, flailing one's body around while holding loaded firearms is exceptionally dangerous. This danger is not justified, given that there is no practical return for engaging in it.

Folks, it's movie B.S.- best to leave it on the screen, where it belongs.

Chad Landry
10-06-2005, 16:00
I'm not talking about the movie BS. I didn't even get that far in that movie review, and I didn't look at your link either.

I'm talking about practicing a "kata" with a gun. I do it all the time. Draw from holster and set sights on target, dry fire. Repeat as necessary.

Does a kata have a minimum number of movements? I don't think so. It's a repetitive movement meant to condition the body and mind to a specific technique.

Yes, movie BS will always be movie BS.

RES, the site you linked looks just plain silly. I can't believe there are people who take that seriously!

Roundeyesamurai
10-06-2005, 16:13
Originally posted by cjlandry
I'm not talking about the movie BS. I didn't even get that far in that movie review, and I didn't look at your link either.

I'm talking about practicing a "kata" with a gun. I do it all the time. Draw from holster and set sights on target, dry fire. Repeat as necessary.

Does a kata have a minimum number of movements? I don't think so. It's a repetitive movement meant to condition the body and mind to a specific technique.

Yes, movie BS will always be movie BS.

RES, the site you linked looks just plain silly. I can't believe there are people who take that seriously!

Obviously, kata-like sequences can have some benefit to firearms training. That's a qualified "some", mind you.

However, since the original question pertained to "Gunkata", that was what I was addressing. "Gunkata" as found in that movie, is naturally absurd.

Burncycle
10-18-2005, 23:59
Barring movie BS, what seperates defensive handgun training from other armed martial arts? Mindset, or another substantial reason?

It seems to me that there are two pretty big mindsets as far as martial arts instruction go; traditional martial arts, and "omg no nonsense street fighting school of martial arts" type deal. Is there any room for the former when we're talking about firearms, or is only the latter going to be taken seriously, as it seems to be so far?

Roundeyesamurai
10-19-2005, 00:13
Originally posted by Burncycle
Barring movie BS, what seperates defensive handgun training from other armed martial arts? Mindset, or another substantial reason?

Nothing, aside from the technical information specific to firearms.

Originally posted by Burncycle
It seems to me that there are two pretty big mindsets as far as martial arts instruction go; traditional martial arts, and "omg no nonsense street fighting school of martial arts" type deal. Is there any room for the former when we're talking about firearms, or is only the latter going to be taken seriously, as it seems to be so far?

By "traditional", you obviously mean "contemporary" (i.e. "McDojos")- most martial artists of either modern or contemporary origin wouldn't know "traditional" if it bit them in the ass.

I'M Traditional. Master Jones' Black Belt Academy isn't.

Burncycle
10-19-2005, 08:05
By "traditional", you obviously mean "contemporary"

I stand corrected :)

AiKahrDo
10-20-2005, 19:36
I appreciate that somebody posted this because no matter how absurd it may be, i.e., movie BS, one cannot watch it and think "how boring", unless you are just turned off by every martial arts movie that is the slightest bit unrealistic.

The reason why it is so entertaining is because it is a totally new "angle" when mixing guns and martial arts in a movie. As the reviewer stated, it isn't really an action movie, it's more like a heavy drama that happens to have some really cool "looking" action scenes, and even better, there is a reason why it exists, not only that but it ties in with the plot, main characters and "mood" of the film.

Really, it's ok to watch it with a close eye and still admit it's great stuff. It's ok to ponder, even for a minute, if director Wimmer has kinda hit on something there, while at the same time knowing that it is "just a scifi movie" and keep it real. That's what cinema is all about, and if you can't appreciate that then honestly, you guys just take it way too seriously.

Sure, there is plenty of campy stuff to be noted while watching it, but I swear you will catch yourself imagining yourself as a grammaton cleric, heck you might even try some of those moves in the mirror! LOL

Seriously though, kick back with some popcorn and a beer and watch a martial arts movie that DOES NOT rely on the new "wire" fad (for a change) that seems to have started with the matrix.

Good solid entertainment, but yeah, one has to keep it real and not take it so seriously, otherwise one will rob themselves of an otherwise refreshing and YES, even thought provoking film.

my 2 cents...... :D

Zenhachirou
10-25-2005, 20:26
Equilibrium is a great movie. Cool ideas, excellent fights, sweet techniques, nice guns... but as has already been said, it's a movie. And JUST a movie.

kruger
11-03-2005, 11:48
Originally posted by Rosokill
See the movie Equilibrium. It's fantastic.

http://www.chud.com/news/oct02/oct28equilibrium.php3

Discuss gunkata.

With the proper training, could it be used effectively?
I think it is a great movie.

Gunkata, as shown in the movies, would be hard, if not impossible, to use effectively. The body mechanics are slower than less flowery methods and would be hard pressed to provide the precision and repeatablity needed to get hits with projectile weapons.

Kata with guns do exist. What is a Bill Drill or an El Presidente if not a prearranged set of motions with martial application?

Parallels can be drawn between martial arts training practices and firearms training practices. The analogies are not quite perfect, but that gives us room for discussion. :)

Kihon waza:
Dry fire practice.
Single element live fire. Examples of this would be any of
the following actions: draw with hands at sides, draw with wrists above shoulders, speed reload, slide-lock reload, reload with retention, tactical reload, splits on same target, transitions between target, strong hand unsupported shooting, weak hand unsupported shooting, shooting on the move, retention shooting, shooting from kneeling, shooting from prone, clearing stoppages, etc.

Kata:
Examples of firearm kata would include:
Bill Drill
El Presidente
just about any IDPA/IPSC/USPSA classifier
Mozambique Drill

Jiyu waza/Randori/Kumite:
Force on Force training with paintball guns or simunitions.

To some extend IDPA/IPSC stages other than the classifiers fall into this category since each stage should be unique, or seen so rarely that you don't get to practice that particular stage, however there is very little of the personal interaction that makes the other practices so very interesting.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger

AiKahrDo
11-13-2005, 07:44
I just read that director Kurt Wimmer will be expanding on his concept of the gun katas in his next movie called "Ultraviolet" with Milla Jovovich(sp) from 5th element and Resident Evil.

The premise is based on a concept from an old movie called "Gloria" although the story is totally different and has something to do with the earth population divided between those infected with a disease that gives humans "Vampire-like" characteristics - increased speed, intelligence, strength. (although they do not drink blood nor are they undead) and those NOT infected. Check out a google search and you should find a couple of interviews with Wimmer explain a bit on this expansion, namely that the concept in Equilibrium was not done quite like how he envisioned or meant for them to be. He said he wanted a softer style, but since the MA choreographer he was working with at the time came from a hard style Karate background the end result was not really how he wanted it, so now he will be working with people that have more of a "wushu" background.

The only thing about that which might worry me is if it ends up more like "face off" or "replacement killers" type John Woo nonsense, like all those flashy "gun fight" spinning type moves. UUugggh.

Roundeyesamurai
11-13-2005, 08:32
Originally posted by AiKahrDo
The only thing about that which might worry me is if it ends up more like "face off" or "replacement killers" type John Woo nonsense, like all those flashy "gun fight" spinning type moves. UUugggh.

It isn't already "flashy movie nonsense"?

AiKahrDo
11-14-2005, 08:35
LOL, well yes, of course it is. I'm just referring to the "John Woo" type nonsense in particular. But then that is the point of this thread, is to point out that it is still nonsense, it's just "fresh" nonsense.

I just assumed it to be generally understood that most, if not ALL, Hollywood movie gunplay to be "nonsense", and as I have already stated, the subject of the "gun katas" shouldn't be taken seriously. It's just a movie, and the gun kata thing is just a concept. It works well in Equilibrium, simply because it is designed to be mathematic, statistical, cold, calculative and efficient - just like everything else in "Libria" and the philosophy of that society.

I don't imagine that Ultraviolet will be set in the same type of place, so there should be emotion involved there. All I was saying was, you know how John Woo movies always seem to have cameras spinning around the subjects with guns and also the subjects are spinning and pointing and all the while they are either firing an awful lot more than their guns can realistically accomplish - or- they are not firing at all - just a lot of flashy moves and camera work.

The Gun Kata concept is totally different, so although probably still "movie nonsense", it's just more cerebral and it has a purpose. Still, if you haven't seen it then the discussion is pointless.

BTW - I just attended Saotome's special weapons seminar and I would like to share with you some photos. I would post them here but I'm afraid only a few would appreciate it and posting one photo at a time is rather time consuming. Let me know if you would be interested, or any one else here for that matter.

Roundeyesamurai
11-14-2005, 08:57
Pics of Saotome! Hook me up! ;f

roundeyesamurai (at) gmail.com

#1glocker19
12-13-2005, 00:59
Yeah it would be cool and awesome until everyone who practiced it shot themself!!