gold-dot/feed ramp question

[gloxter]

I was curious to know if anyone has encountered the following problem utilizing thier G19 with Speer Gold Dot ammunition; specifically 124 grainers:

I've put a few thousand rounds through my 19 and until recently, haven't had a single problem. Then I loaded a 15 round magazine with Gold Dots and it appears as though the face of the bullet hits the feed ramp mid-way, or the halfway point dead center to the hollow cavity and won't chamber. The magazine seems to have plenty of spring tension, but I can't figure out why they won't chamber.

As a comparison, Cor-Bon's 125 grain +p's chamber perfectly. Perhaps it is because the cases are shorter. I just don't know. Since this is my CCW pistol, it is of great concern to me. The feed ramp isn't even nicked, let alone worn down. Could it possibly be that my guide rod spring is loosing it's ability to push the slide forward with adequate velocity? Any thoughts are appreciated.

-gloxter;P

[gloxter]

Seriously?

[gary newport]

Nope, nothing like that has happened with my G19 since I substituted 9mm4 followers for 2183s in my Clintonized mags.

(I realize this doesn't help, but it gives your thread another bump!)

[Buffering]

gloxter,

Two weekends ago I fired this exact ammo out my Gen3 19 and I didn't have any problems. I used a 15 rd and a 10 rd with the 9mm3 follower.

My first thoughts are the mag springs but the Corbons feed fine and that also makes me think that the recoil spring could use replacing depending on the number of rounds. Perhaps the mag springs need changing too. Other than these two areas, I can't think of anything obvious. You have any function mods on the gun?

What's peculiar is that they fed fine for awhile and then took a dump on you.

[johnstrr]

I just posted the same thing about black talons here. (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=450907)

[TaxCop]

I have a G19 doing the same thing. As a matter of fact, I just finished typing the letter to Glock detailing its issue. The round that jams can be anywhere from the first to the last round, with nothing consistent other than running nose first into the feed ramp. The problem for me is intermittent and does not occur with ball ammo. Glock sent me new mag springs and that did not fix it. The followers are marked "4." There appears to be more than adequate spring strength with the recoil and mag springs. I think that I have checked everything imaginable that I can check. I am sending it off today to Glock to see what they do with it.

[Skylark]

Gloxter, johnstrr and TaxCop,

I'm a newbie but I thought I read a post that late model Glock 9mm's include barrels with fully (more) supported chambers. If your G19s have that type of barrel, could the feed ramp be too steep?

Wild guess,
Skylark

[deltaopwong]

3000 rounds of GoldDot through my Dept. issued G19, no problems...

[petedalaw]

I know that you can't do it to your carry gun if you really need it in a flash, but are you giving the back of the mag a rap against the palm of your hand before loading it into the mag well? I'm wondering if the bullets are walking foward in the mag, that's all. I'll have to go and shoot a couple of mags to see if this happens to me, cause I carry a 19 with 124+P GD's off duty. Never heard of Glocks having a problem chambering anything, without the occasional "Glitch" so this is odd and somewhat troubling...

[TaxCop]

Skylark, I thought about it as well as I was looking at the feed ramp and how the round would run right into it. It appeared that the angle of the ramp could be a little too steep. After reading your post I looked back on some of the past posts on the 19 barrel and it appears that they could have increased the angle with the changes. I have never had a problem with a Glock feeding any type of ammo, so when it was doing this, I was quite concerned. I talked to Glock on Tuesday or Wednesday and it was being checked in. I mentioned the feed ramp angle to them and they were going to take a look at it. Hopefully I should hear something back from them this week and it will detail what they found to be the culprit.

[G20man32904]

Not a 9mm but had the same problem today with my G29. G20 works flawlessly as usual but the 29 locked up on me.
You can find my thread here (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=455678)
Since I reload, I'm thinking its an OAL length problem and hopefully one I can solve!

[Skylark]

Originally posted by TaxCop
Skylark, I thought about it as well as I was looking at the feed ramp and how the round would run right into it. It appeared that the angle of the ramp could be a little too steep. After reading your post I looked back on some of the past posts on the 19 barrel and it appears that they could have increased the angle with the changes. I have never had a problem with a Glock feeding any type of ammo, so when it was doing this, I was quite concerned. I talked to Glock on Tuesday or Wednesday and it was being checked in. I mentioned the feed ramp angle to them and they were going to take a look at it. Hopefully I should hear something back from them this week and it will detail what they found to be the culprit.
Whoa, that is really refreshing that Glock said they would look into the feed ramp angle on supported barrels instead of blowing you off. I've always read that Glock has EXCELLENT support for their handguns and this appears to be another example. Really hope they follow through and get back to you.

Now I wonder if I could order a new 3rd gen G19 with an unsupported barrel? I don't want to buy a new G19 and then have to shell out more $$$ to buy a 3rd party unsupported barrel. I'm not worried about kabooms at 6'oclock using the unsupported barrel as I will only be shooting new factory ammo and not reloading.

Maybe ask Glock if they can loan you an supported barrel for testing and that you will return either barrel later. They could even charge your credit card for the unsupported barrel just to be safe and give you a refund when they receive one barrel back.

Thanks,
Skylark

[TaxCop]

After doing a little more reading, I found that the new mags with the #5 followers were designed to present the tip of the bullet higher on the ramp and at a higher angle so that they would feed in the redesigned barrels. Apparently just changing the followers is just half of the fix, as they redesigned the mag body as well to assist in presenting the bullet at a higher angle.

I sent my gun back with all eight mags, so I would not be surprised that they change out the older mags with the #3 and #4 followers with new mags with the #5 followers. This may solve the issues with this gun.

[ED_P]

Originally posted by TaxCop
After doing a little more reading, I found that the new mags with the #5 followers were designed to present the tip of the bullet higher on the ramp and at a higher angle so that they would feed in the redesigned barrels. Apparently just changing the followers is just half of the fix, as they redesigned the mag body as well to assist in presenting the bullet at a higher angle.

I sent my gun back with all eight mags, so I would not be surprised that they change out the older mags with the #3 and #4 followers with new mags with the #5 followers. This may solve the issues with this gun.

Thanks for the doing the research, I'm sure I wasn't the only Glock 19 owner and Gold Dot user silently watching this thread for more info.

[Skylark]

Originally posted by TaxCop
After doing a little more reading, I found that the new mags with the #5 followers were designed to present the tip of the bullet higher on the ramp and at a higher angle so that they would feed in the redesigned barrels. Apparently just changing the followers is just half of the fix, as they redesigned the mag body as well to assist in presenting the bullet at a higher angle.

I sent my gun back with all eight mags, so I would not be surprised that they change out the older mags with the #3 and #4 followers with new mags with the #5 followers. This may solve the issues with this gun.
I really think the problem is with the feed ramp angle on supported barrels and not with the magazine. Feed ramp problems are also occuring with other Glocks with supported barrels like the .357 Glocks. There is a thread on this forum about this.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=455255

Skylark

[OpenMind]

Here's more information about magazine followers causing feeding problems with hollowpoints. This is the problem I had with my G19, and after switching mags/followers, no more problem.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=420186&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1

[TaxCop]

Interesting that Glocks are criticized for having unsupported chambers and when they improve that then feeding problems crop up. I had a second generation 19 that fed everything I could stick in the magazine, and now I have a third generation 19 that should be an improvement, but has problems. Go figure.

It seems like a lot of people solve their feeding problems with new mag springs, but I am going to speculate that that may be a temporary fix for some of those weapons. It looks like Glocks need the bullet presented at a higher angle to feed properly and evermore so with the improved 19 barrels. I have a Smith and Wesson 6906 with 15 year old mags that have been loaded almost all the time and spring tension is not their greatest attribute anymore, but they still feed everything, even with weak mag springs. Before I get struck down by Glock lighting, I am merely trying to illustrate that the Glocks seem a little more picky about mag spring tension. Again, just a thought.

[Skylark]

Originally posted by TaxCop
Interesting that Glocks are criticized for having unsupported chambers and when they improve that then feeding problems crop up. I had a second generation 19 that fed everything I could stick in the magazine, and now I have a third generation 19 that should be an improvement, but has problems. Go figure. ...snip...

Before I get struck down by Glock lighting, I am merely trying to illustrate that the Glocks seem a little more picky about mag spring tension. Again, just a thought.
I'd like to expand on my speculation also.

My thinking is that when Gaston designed the first G17, he ended up with the unsupported chamber at 6'oclock to obtain the perfect feedramp angle for error free feeding. I feel certain that "that feedramp angle" must have been a result of much testing.

To prevent kabooms at 6'oclock, the unsupported portion of the chamber was moved further back to obtain more support. Now if the bottom edge of the feedramp remains in the same position, the feedramp angle has to be steeper in a supported barrel.

Here's another speculation. Could it be that the supported barrel is made so that the chamber end does not tilt downward as much when the slide is in the rearmost position? In other words, if the barrel does not tilt as much then that would help lessen the "effective" feedramp angle. Now if this is the case, then the lowermost edge of the feedramp would be a tad higher than where an unsupported barrel would be, thus allowing the bullet to hit the lower most edge of the feedramp.

100% pure speculation as I have never even seen the barrels in real life. Purely going by pictures I've seen of how the barrel looks, and posts I've read on the web.

Skylark

[TaxCop]

OK...Got my G19 back today. I have not had a chance to go home to see what was done but I had my wife read off what fixes/things they did to my gun. From what I recall, they replaced the extractor, striker, all pins and springs, slide release (I asked for the extended one) and replaced all eight magazines with current production mags (#5 followers). They did all this and tried to replicate the earlier jams they found and were not able to do it. The fired 150 rounds of Gold Dot through the gun with no malfunction and placed night sights on the gun (at my request as well). Afterwards they listed that they cleaned the gun. I will get home and check it out and see what all they did, as I thing I may have left out a thing or two that they may have replaced. I am sure that I will be pleased with their work. Of course I will need to test it all out, but so far it it looking pretty promising.

[TaxCop]

Got to finally check out the 19 myself. They replaced all my mags with new style with the #5 followers. Tried to see if it would hang up a Gold Dot on the ramp and could not make it do it. It does appear that the newer mags present the tip of the buller higher up and at a little steeper angle than past mags. Also, my barrel is the new design marked with a "1." So for those who are having problems with the feed ramp jams, I would suggest buying a new mag with the #5 follower in it to see if that solves your problems. Hope this may help.

[Skylark]

Originally posted by TaxCop
Tried to see if it would hang up a Gold Dot on the ramp and could not make it do it.
Thanks for the update Taxcop. Please do give us another update after you have had a chance to fire a few hundred rounds through your updated G19.

[Nosmik]

Well that sucks,
I got a new model 19 and happened to find out about this too. I went to the range with a lot of round nose for plinking, Gold Dots and Golden Sabers (both 147gr) for home defence. I tried the round nose and no hick ups. When I tried the GD, slide stood open and I could see the round in there between the bottom of the feedramp and the mag. but the Golden Sabers saved the day with no problems.

You think Glock will send me some good followers if I call them? I do not want to send them my pistol if it is only a problem with the followers. I am going to give them a call on Monday and see what happens.

[TaxCop]

Nosmik,
Check your mags and see if they have the #5 followers. Also I don't think that only changing the followers will be the total solution as the mag bodies are also different with the #5 followers. I would call Glock to see if they would trade them out or go buy one or two current #5 mags.

[Nosmik]

Taxcop,
This morning I gave Glock a call and explained the situation. they are sending me some followers (#4 if I can remember) so let's see what happens.
The rep was saying not to use 147gr because they are too heavy. After I told him that I run Golden Sabers without problems, he didn't say anything else.

[ED_P]

Originally posted by Nosmik
The rep was saying not to use 147gr because they are too heavy. [/B]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the 124gr Gold Dots and 147gr Gold Dots exactly the same dimensions externally?

The only way I can tell them apart is the 147gr has a deeper hollow point cavity, and common sense says the round must just extend deeper into the brass.

[Nosmik]

Ok,
Today I received the followers. They sent me the #3 instead of the #4.
After I installed them I loaded the magazines (10rd full) with the GD and started pulling the slide like a regular cycle. I did this with three full mags and had a few FTF (same problem, you can see the cartride stuck between the feedramp and mag). It happened a few times so I am staying with the Rem GS for defense.
Interesting to know that the #3 follower, having the slight upward angle, is still a bit loose when you put some downward pressure and the nose of the bullet has a bit of movement. The 2183-1 have more support but are bit more flat regarding the angle.
Hope this help for future reference.

[Vincent Black]

My brand new GLOCK 19 has the new mags with the #5 followers and has no problems. I have 6 17 round mags and 1 33 rounder that also has the #5 follower. None of them have any problems. The new mags seem to solve the feed issues experienced by other GLOCK19 owners.