Shoes for IDPA?

[fisherm]

Hi all,

I'm new to both IDPA and IPSC but am hoping to compete in both.

I need some advice/guidance on shoes.

My understanding is that in IPSC I can wear cleats - but not IDPA.
Is that correct?

If so, then the Nike Landshark cleats suggested by Matt Burkett and a few others would not be legal for IDPA then, right?

so... :)

Which brand/model shoe have you found has great grip but is also legal for IDPA?
I have read posts about hiking boots but what I am really interested in finding out is (in your experience) what make and model has the most aggressive (cleat-like) sole that you have been/seen allowed to wear and compete with in an IDPA event?

And to a lesser extent, which make/model shoe(s) you know were not allowed to be used in an IDPA event?

I really don't want to go buy a shoe/cleat that isn't legal - or that is sometimes legal, depending on the day. :)

Thanks for your help.

[Steve Koski]

Just wear your regular weekend, goof around the house/yard shoes to an IDPA match. It's not an equipment race like IPSC. You'll be much better off spending your shoe money on reloading components and shoot more drills.

Koski

[scowan007]

IPSC was started to be a "practical" shooting sport. It eventually became a game of equipment and gadgets, thus the IDPA was born. To try to get back the "spirit" of a practical shooting sport. Why whore it up and water it down and make it another USPSA.

I have very little respect for anyone (who would call themselves a practical shooter) who shoots IDPA with anything other than their daily carry gear/wear.

[fisherm]

Thanks for the comments.

Just to clarify my intentions in light of the two posts so far.

1. I see the shoes as safety equipment moreso than an edge to win.
With my limited shooting experience there is no WAY *shoes* will give me the edge! :)
I just can't afford to be banged up in bed on a Monday becuase I slipped and really hurt myself on Sunday.
I really enjoy shooting but its my M-F activities that pay my range, entry and ammo bills!

2. I have every intention of the shoes I purchase becoming my daily wear.
I have a bit of flexibility in what I wear, and if I can identify a pair of shoes/sneakers that are comfortable and also happen to help me respond to threats more quickly - then they SHOULD be my daily wear.
Plus, I need a new pair of sneaks anyway! ;f

Not sure how either of those would classify me as a whore?
But then I have been called worse before.

3. Shooting drills is already part of the plan;
along with taped and live instruction.
Thanks for the tip though.

Any other equipment whores out there have any recommendations on shoes? ;f

[scowan007]

Sorry for coming across so testy in my previous post.;c
I just find myself shaking my head at IDPA matches at all the "gear queers" who show up for matches in their IDPA "uniforms" wearing/carrying stuff that never sees the light of day except for match days.

Hope you have fun in your new sport!;c Shoot straight and stay safe.

[scowan007]

If you want some real grippy shoes look up "five ten" or five tennies". THey make rock climbing shoes, but they also make tennis type shoes and light hikers that have the same SUPER sticky rubber soles as their climbing shoes. You will literally feel like you can walk up walls.

[Custom Glock Racing]

Originally posted by scowan007
[B] It eventually became a game of equipment and gadgets, thus the IDPA was born. Is that why guns based on early 90s designs still win?

Cleats are safety equipment, not a gamer thing. But both are games so it really does not matter.

I always looked for trail running or hiking shoes with a really agressive tread for shooting IDPA. Timberland makes some good choices.

[fisherm]

No worries.
;Y
Thanks for posting back.

I know the IDPA vs IPSC battle is fast and furious.
I just smile away becuase I don't care the format - I just want to shoot, and improve.

I do like to think that I am approaching the equipment issue a little differently from some others.
I am seriously looking at what gear works better - and incorporating it into my daily wear.
So my daily wear becomes a bit more practical/tactical and my competition wear becomes more like my daily wear. ;f

I actually wore a pair of 5.11 pants all day today for the first time while visiting clients and no one commented.
I never realised how much of my interaction with clients is done around a table, where no one is looking at my pants anyway!

Those pockets sure do come in handy for cell phones etc.

I also discovered that a good gun belt (Aker B21) has the added benefit of keeping my PDA at the same spot on my belt all day!
Today was the first time in a long time that the PDA pouch didn't drop off at least once while getting in/out of the car.

Who says CCW gear doesn't have its benefits!

For what its worth - the B21 in black (and brown) will definitely be my daily wear belt, firearm or not!


Now just need to find a nice shoe!
LOL

[fisherm]

Originally posted by scowan007
If you want some real grippy shoes look up "five ten" or five tennies". THey make rock climbing shoes, but they also make tennis type shoes and light hikers that have the same SUPER sticky rubber soles as their climbing shoes. You will literally feel like you can walk up walls.
+1 Thanks. I'll look into that.

The ones that have caught my eye currently are the Merrell Pulse.

[scowan007]

Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing

Cleats are safety equipment, not a gamer thing.

Perhaps we need to mandate helmets for IDPA?~rf

Based on your username and sig lines, I sense a very slight tad of a bias;) so I won't bother to argue the point.;c

[scowan007]

Originally posted by fisherm
+1 Thanks. I'll look into that.

The ones that have caught my eye currently are the Merrell Pulse.

Merrell=also makes nice climbing shoes. I don't think they use the climbing shoe rubber in the soles of their hikers like 5.10 does. I could be wrong.

Another tip. Belts. Filson makes a great double belt made from double thickness bridle leather. Looks like a dress belt, but stands up to holsters, etc. around 50 bucks. A lot cheaper than many inferior "dress gun belts". Bass Pro sometimes has them.

I'll have to look into the AKer you mentioned.

[fisherm]

The Akers B21 is a double layer leather belt with a polymer insert sewn in between.
Not as thick as a similarly stiff double leather-only belt, and can't sag or stretch.

Add to that a standard changeable belt buckle - using 2 snaps, and a price of just $38 at Galls - works for me. :)
Its MUCH stiffer than my Wilderness 5 stitch.

[scowan007]

Originally posted by fisherm
The Akers B21 is a double layer leather belt with a polymer insert sewn in between.
Not as thick as a similarly stiff double leather-only belt, and can't sag or stretch.

Add to that a standard changeable belt buckle - using 2 snaps, and a price of just $38 at Galls - works for me. :)
Its MUCH stiffer than my Wilderness 5 stitch.

I think I'l;l probably grab one of those - thanks.

[Custom Glock Racing]

Originally posted by scowan007
Perhaps we need to mandate helmets for IDPA?~rf

Based on your username and sig lines, I sense a very slight tad of a bias;) so I won't bother to argue the point.;c Well if you wear eye protection and ear protection at the range but not on the street then you are a gear queer by your own definition.

I may not wear cleats in daily life but I also dont walk/run or spend 90% of my time off the range in loose dirt, grass, gravel etc, if I did I would wear them.

I dont knowingly dive into the same surfaces or drop a knee in them, go prone etc without knee pads.

Do you want a guys who normally wears a suit running around a range with a loaded gun on a loose surface in wingtips for the sake of being tactical over being safe?

Cleats and pads and helmets if you want to wear them are truly just safety gear, the same as eyes and ears. You are playing a game, a sport, a competition with a scoreboard and a clock. Getting hurt detracts from the fun and disallowing equipment that helps prevent injury is plain stupid and negligent.

I may be a bit of a gamer but I am also someone who beleives in common sense and avoiding injury when possible during a game.

[scowan007]

Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing
Well if you wear eye protection and ear protection at the range but not on the street then you are a gear queer by your own definition.

I may not wear cleats in daily life but I also dont walk/run or spend 90% of my time off the range in loose dirt, grass, gravel etc, if I did I would wear them.

I dont knowingly dive into the same surfaces or drop a knee in them, go prone etc without knee pads.

Do you want a guys who normally wears a suit running around a range with a loaded gun on a loose surface in wingtips for the sake of being tactical over being safe?

Cleats and pads and helmets if you want to wear them are truly just safety gear, the same as eyes and ears. You are playing a game, a sport, a competition with a scoreboard and a clock. Getting hurt detracts from the fun and disallowing equipment that helps prevent injury is plain stupid and negligent.

I may be a bit of a gamer but I am also someone who beleives in common sense and avoiding injury when possible during a game.

Excellent points.;c

[scowan007]

CGR-

I guess what I am saying is that many people abandon any semblance of daily carry when they shoot IDPA (which it's supposed to reflect, at least as much as is practical)

If you need cleats/ pads for safety that's cool, but if your every day carry is Stock G19 IWB under a suitcoat or sport coat while wearing a tie and your spare mag (if any) is in your pocket; and your IDPA rig is a G34 with a light trigger in OWB kydex sooperdooper IDPA legal (wink wink) rig under a 5.11 vest with dual mag pouches on the off-side then you're not really being true to the sport or yourself IMHO. That's what I was trying get across - rather poorly apparently.;)

[Joe D]

I think the most I have paid for tennis shoes with aggressive soles was $15. I get them at Target and Walmart. I buy a couple of pairs when I find some I like.

[eljay45]

I like a hiking boot, something with aggresive tread and good ankle support. I don't wear them everyday so I guess I'm a whore too.

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing
[B]Cleats are safety equipment, not a gamer thing. [B]

LOL! ! ! I suppose spandex track suits are safety gear too. There used to be a P in IPSC, but nobody even pretends it's there any more.

[Clyde]

I look fro something I can stand in all day. Boots with ankle support - I guess I'm with eljay45 ;)

[murph2127]

I use a red wing off brand (Vasque) hiking boot with a vibram sole for the range or other off pavement activities.

The cool kids use either the Oakley Assault Boots or the Adidas GSG-9 boots. The tread on the Adidas is very aggressive, like a small clete. They make urban wear type shoe with the same tread. The difference between the GSG9 and a sports shoe is pretty small btw.

I always wanted to try the Oakley or Adidas but they don't make my size, at least that I've found.

But any decent hiking boot will give you a good aggressive sole and ankle support.

[J.P.]

Originally posted by scowan007
CGR-

I guess what I am saying is that many people abandon any semblance of daily carry when they shoot IDPA (which it's supposed to reflect, at least as much as is practical)

If you need cleats/ pads for safety that's cool, but if your every day carry is Stock G19 IWB under a suitcoat or sport coat while wearing a tie and your spare mag (if any) is in your pocket; and your IDPA rig is a G34 with a light trigger in OWB kydex sooperdooper IDPA legal (wink wink) rig under a 5.11 vest with dual mag pouches on the off-side then you're not really being true to the sport or yourself IMHO. That's what I was trying get across - rather poorly apparently.;)

The trouble is that IDPA won't allow us to carry in any other method but strongside hip when in reality some of us choose different methods.
Thank goodness I wear my gamer gear everyday otherwise I might get pegged for something I'm not. ;)

[sniper1moore]

I wear Nike Trigo +2s and they are great for IDPA.I'm not like some of the guys posting in this thread if I get my tail kicked at a match I attribute it to the guy being a better shooter not the fact that he used gear that is legal for the sport that I don't use just so I will have an excuse as to why I got my tail kicked.I use a Glock 35 and it fits in the box so it's legal for the sport.I use to carry a 21 when I wore a badge but I don't carry anymore I just play the games (IDPA,USPSA) and I use gear that the rulebooks say is legal and if that bothers people maybe they should just stay at the house on match day.Ken

[ryucasta]

http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47871381&parent_category_rn=4501259&vcat=REI_SEARCH

I use the Merrell Chameleon II Stretch Cross-Training Shoes for both IDPA and USPSA competition. I have found them to be a good all round shoe for both games.

[marvin]

Originally posted by Steve Koski
LOL! ! ! I suppose spandex track suits are safety gear too. There used to be a P in IPSC, but nobody even pretends it's there any more.


who cares if the "P" in ipsc isn't there anymore. all i care about is having a good time, and to me a good time means going at warp 10!!! for the last few months i've given up shooting major because i can go faster in minor limited.

but when i shoot idpa i use a hunting vest because i don't carry on a day to day basics i have to go cheap.

[skorpio]

Amateur IPSC and IDPA shooter here. My criteria for shooting/competative footwear leans toward something light (so I can move fast) with a semi-agressive tread pattern (for good grip). As I buy most of my shoes at Academy, I usually stick with New Balance and Nike sneakers, primarily in the cross-country section of the shoe dept.

[fisherm]

Thanks all for the suggestions and comments.

Went with a pair of Merrell Pulse (not the Pulse II) in full black. The full black looks more like a sneaker and less like a hiking shoe/boot IMHO.

Got them for under $50 new in box off eBay.
The tread pattern is aggressive, but are still sneakers, and not specific sporting shoes. They should hopefully be legal for both.

I'll post back with the results after I have had a chance to really test them.

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by marvin
who cares if the "P" in ipsc isn't there anymore. all i care about is having a good time, and to me a good time means going at warp 10!!! for the last few months i've given up shooting major because i can go faster in minor limited.

but when i shoot idpa i use a hunting vest because i don't carry on a day to day basics i have to go cheap.

Nobody cares, that's why IpSC is IpSC and the gamers have their game.

Some of us just don't want IDPA to trot down the same path to equipment racemanship, non-practicality, and increasing irrelevance to self defense.

So when otherwise levelheaded guys like CGR claim that CLEATS are safety gear and should be allowed in IDPA, some of us say "now wait a minute..."

[MarkP]

"My understanding is that in IPSC I can wear cleats - but not IDPA.
Is that correct?"Fm

That is correct , from p40 of the IDPA rule book:
Miscellaneous/2.Cleats
Cleated shoes designed for specific sports(i.e., football , baseball,golf,etc.) may not be worn.

"If so, then the Nike Landshark cleats suggested by Matt Burkett and a few others would not be legal for IDPA then, right?"

Right.

"Which brand/model shoe have you found has great grip but is also legal for IDPA?"

Any "street" shoe is suitable for IDPA , some more than others. My daily footwear of choice is an ankle-high hiking shoe (Nike ACG) , works well on some ranges and not so well on others. That's life - I just deal with it..and try to keep my muzzle downrange when I fall ;)

[TheBelly]

Originally posted by scowan007
If you want some real grippy shoes look up "five ten" or five tennies". THey make rock climbing shoes, but they also make tennis type shoes and light hikers that have the same SUPER sticky rubber soles as their climbing shoes. You will literally feel like you can walk up walls.

+1 on 5.10s

I use a pair of their skate shoes for when i go shooting local matches (local as in I set something up and all my buddies try to beat each other for scores)

[Carlitos]

The best shoes are both light & w/ aggressive tread.

I appreciate the ban on sports cleats.

One way to avoid that & make sure your stuff is practical is to look at some of the Tactical supply houses on the web; many feature Original S.W.A.T brand boots or the similar/superior Bates brand Tactical boots; the latter have a very aggressive sole pattern (think Vibram sole for the new milenium) that is very grippy on all sufaces (thus, ultra practical). Most of these same places feature the most popular pants in IDPA: the 5.11s. Cactus Tactical and Arizona GunRunners come to mind - as well as the very controversial (but improved) Botach supply (go ahead and post your Botach horror stories if you want).

Moreover, the Original S.W.A.T. and Bates are worn by many, many LEOs - regular officers a well as Tac Ops guys so they really are the "real deal" while still being very light (I'd suggest the ankle high versions).

If these are not readily available/too pricey, Merril makes some light equivalents; look for light weight and an aggressive sole pattern. These should be for sale at any Sports Authority store.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

EDIT: I think these guys: http://thewilderness.com/catalog/default.php/cPath/6
were supposed to add a line of Tactical boots to their line of Tactical clothing & as a plus, they are GT sponsors.

[ryucasta]

Too complicated I’ll just start wearing my Tony Lama’s, Cole Haan’s or my Allen-Edmund’s since that’s what I normally wear everyday not those pesky Merrell’s. ;)

[9x45]

Shoes for IDPA? HA! What kind of question is that? I mean it's really different... The 1st concern is usually the gun division, and holster, and stuff like that, but shoes? And also for USPSA, not IPSC, unless you live outside the USA.

This is oustanding!

So you can't decide what kind of shoes you need for IDPA. Ok, it's supposed to be about everyday gear and wear, whatever that means. I wear surfer shorts, a Hawaiian shirt, and Berkenstock sandels. Or if it's too cold in SoCal, blue jeans and $12 Big 5 hiking shoes.

You need to get out and shoot matches, and not think about stuff like this...

5-11 pants, and Photog vests, of course, those are everyday wear. What are you thinking???

[fisherm]

Originally posted by 9x45
5-11 pants, and Photog vests, of course, those are everyday wear. What are you thinking??? You don't wear your 5-11s every day?
I do! They're great.

The new nylon rip stop shirts are fantastic.
Coolest long sleeve shirt I have ever worn in my life.
But then, I haven't tried Sea Island Cotton yet... :(

And ohh.. thanks for your concerns.. yes,
gun, division, holster and belt decisions have already been made. ;)

And my Merrells may very well become my daily wear too... along with my 5.11s
if they are as comfortable and practical as the reviews make them out to be.

At least we'll both enjoy shooting matches in what we are comfortable wearing.

;Y

[jobob]

This IDPA vs IPSC debate is such silliness. It's all shooting. I remember in the pre-IDPA days (yes I'm an old fart) the marshal artsy folks in IPSC said that Rob Leatham wouldn't be so hot if he shot a 5" 1911 rather than his compensated 38 Super. I knew different. And he has shown since that he is a master with whatever he has in his hands.

If you wear different shoes at a match than you do every day what difference does it make? When the shtf you won't be thinking about what's on your feet. If the shoes you wear in a match give you a little edge and are safer, then that is what I call practical - using equipment that is most suitable to whatever situation and environment you happen to be in. I may wear 2 or 3 different shoes or boots in one day. If some mope pulls a gun on me I don't think I'll be at a disadvantage just because my footwear isn't what I wear at the range and my gun is a slightly different model. I might be if I'm in hip deep snow and wearing pack boots; so should I wear pack boots to the match to be "practical"?

And if you carry a G23 daily, like I do both on and off duty, and shoot a G34 or 35 in matches, from a holster that sits in basically the same location as my Milt Sparks iwb and my Neslon duty holster, it makes no difference either. The operation of the guns is the same, with a slight difference in balance and feel, and the sights are a little different, though both are of the post and notch configuration. In the 'real thing' my hand wouldn't know which gun it had. I'd be getting the front sight on the bg as fast as possible and cutting loose!

The whole "practical vs gamesman" arguments are just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin questions. These are games. Fun games. Shooting games, with some practical applications - both IDPA and IPSC. Does anyone consider bullseye to be "practical"? No? Well I'd dearly love to have a master bullseye shooter as my backup. He may need some instruction in tactics, but he knows the basics of sight picture and trigger control. He who has mastered the basics wins matches and wins shootouts. Rob Leatham would be absolutely formidable in a shootout.

[Clay1]

I really like Glock talk and hanging around a group of like minded shooter. I get sick of all of the tree huggers easily. I just am surprised at the nasty comments we make toward each other many times. We are all here to find out what works for each other and better our shooting performance.

What kind of question is asking about proper equipment, a question from someone who is serious about the sport. For all of the Tactical Teds out there, guess what, the swat teams care what kind of footwear they wear.

For me this is a game, if you want tactical training go shoot force on force with Gabe or something that is more along those lines. By the way, I bet Gabe will also give you an opinion on what he prefers for footwear, don't know this for a fact, but have a strong feeling on it.

Back to the question on what is appropriate for this game. I wear Merrells. Love the aggressive tred and the light weight. I also have a nice pair of Bates with the spider sole. I bought mine off of Ebay as well - great prices.

By the way, I have seen a video of Matt at CGR falling on his ***. I understand why you don't want to fall with loaded gun.

Take your new shoes and go pull the trigger now and have fun.

Let's keep the discussion civil. We are all here to enjoy shooting. Save the nasty comments for the treehuggers.

Rick

[plumbum2]

since this is a game. i think cleats SHOULD be aloud.

my reasoning! like most of everything else in competition room. you can "cheat" do every little gizmo ect. but your not gonna be out whippin master class shooters without actually SHOOTING in the multi thousands per year!

i would say on the average, their would probably be no HUGE differance in 90% of the shooters scores/times ect.

and the guys that do get faster will be doing it all at the same time. so basically no one will have an edge. just everyones times will be a little faster..... :)

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by plumbum2
since this is a game. i think cleats SHOULD be aloud.

my reasoning! like most of everything else in competition room. you can "cheat" do every little gizmo ect....

and the guys that do get faster will be doing it all at the same time. so basically no one will have an edge. just everyones times will be a little faster..... :)

You are obviously unfamiliar with the history of IPSC and the goal of IDPA not to become an unpractical equipment race.

[plumbum2]

i am completely familiar with the historys of both. but i forgot to add. i thought they should be added for a safety measure. i too have seen some people fall in the dirt. eventually someone might end up getting shot. no matter how good gun/trigger control is.

[marvin]

Originally posted by Steve Koski
You are obviously unfamiliar with the history of IPSC and the goal of IDPA not to become an unpractical equipment race.

I've done a bunch of ipsc and some IDPA. and i can't see where it's all that practical in IDPA either. i come from a very gun friendly state but very few shooters carry on a day to day basics. and those that do some carry guns that they can't use in idpa(.32 keltec's glock C models ect.)and some dare to carry there guns some place other than there strong side hip. so if they want to play games they get gamer guns. nothing wrong with this but some folks think that they're cheating some how because they would like to win if they could. as long as they play with in the rules set up for the game they should be able to play and have a good time.

[MarkP]

No one is preventing anyone from "playing."
There has to be a line drawn somewhere , otherwise you have a watered down version of some other sport .

fwiw,
MP













edit for spelling

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by plumbum2
i am completely familiar with the historys of both.

Your previous post indicates you're not even familiar with the term "equipment race."

Originally posted by plumbum2
but i forgot to add. i thought they should be added for a safety measure. i too have seen some people fall in the dirt. eventually someone might end up getting shot. no matter how good gun/trigger control is. [/B]

You've never seen someone wearing cleats fall down? You're hyping this beyond all reason. Go discuss something you're familiar with.

Originally posted by MarkP
No one is preventing anyone form "playing."
There has to be a line drawn somewhere , otherwise you have a watered down version of some other sport .[/B]

Exactly!

[marvin]

but if you can't shoot what you carry how practical is it? i don't really care what guns people shoot, i mean i don't go to an ICOR match and complain that i can't shoot my glock. i just wish folks would call it a game and stop worrying about the dumb stuff. you can't wear knee pads above your pants but you can under your pants, talk about dumb! and if your wearing shorts you're up the creek. then they worry about cleats. but no one worrys about running shoes.

look tell the shooters what guns are legal and where to wear them, then conceal the whole works. then let the shooters decide what they want on their feet or knees or what ever. because if you think that cleats give an unfair advantage,you need to go practice some more.

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by marvin
but if you can't shoot what you carry how practical is it?
Who says you can't shoot what you carry? I shoot my G35 from an IWB at every match. This is my daily rig. At least 1/2 the shooters at our matches shoot EXACTLY what they carry.

Now you can't shoot from a SOB, crossdraw, or shoulder holster for obvious safety reasons. You're not so dense as to oppose this rule are you?

Originally posted by marvin
i don't really care what guns people shoot, i mean i don't go to an ICOR match and complain that i can't shoot my glock. i just wish folks would call it a game and stop worrying about the dumb stuff. you can't wear knee pads above your pants but you can under your pants, talk about dumb! and if your wearing shorts you're up the creek. then they worry about cleats. but no one worrys about running shoes.

Dude, everyone knows IDPA is a game. It is trying to be a game that has some relevance to real world gun use, like IPSC started out.

However, without rules (even arbitrary rules that you can't understand or dissagree with) it will turn into an equipment race that has very little link to practical carry - This is exactly what happened to IPSC. The rules were gradually loosened over time and now it's just "having fun with a gun" with little or no relevance to real world pistol use.

Another option is for you to start your own shooting organization with rules you like.

I suppose another option is for you to continue b1tching.

Koski

[elsolo]

IDPA has little or no relevence to real world shooting either, they just try really hard to pretend like they do.

[Steve Koski]

Esolo,

It sounds like you're speaking from ignorance. I invite you to read the following thread. http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=459524

Koski

[marvin]

The guns I'm talking about are those that are not legal, like those people silly enough to carry.380's or .32's or god forbid a glock "C" model.

Funny you should say it but I've talked about starting my own shooting sport. It would be called offensive pistol extreme compition or OPEC for short. the smallest stages would be 28 rounds with some going to over 50.

or i paid my dues so i might keep *****ing






.

[Flexmoney]

I can't believe there are still people hung up on this "equipment race" propaganda. ;Q

I shoot the same gun and gear in IDPA as I do USPSA/IPSC. I wear the same clothes. The same shoes (mine look identical to those posted by ryucasta).

When I get home from shooting any of the gun games, I put a full capacity mag in the gun and put my Surefire X200 on the rail.

[sniper1moore]

With Steve Koski putting down everyone's opionion of what should be allowed I can see why anyone reading this thread would not want to give IDPA a try.I think alot of things need to be changed in IDPA but I'm not going to call someone dense or belittle them because their views differ from mine.I wonder if he actually talks to people with that attitude in person.Ken

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by sniper1moore
With Steve Koski putting down everyone's opionion of what should be allowed I can see why anyone reading this thread would not want to give IDPA a try.I think alot of things need to be changed in IDPA but I'm not going to call someone dense or belittle them because their views differ from mine.I wonder if he actually talks to people with that attitude in person.Ken

Ken,

I appologize if I've hurt your feelings. You are free to debate me on the issues, point by point. I see that you've chosen not to.

Koski

[sniper1moore]

You haven't hurt my feelings at all I was just wondering if you talked to people like that in person and if so do you still have all your teeth?

I understand your views on IDPA,you are a slow shooter and want to stop it from progressing into a speed shooting event you want to keep it "Tactical" (like moving forward into 9 BGs is Tactical).So you just keep putting everyone down to cover your short comings.I just laugh at you super tactical guys.Ken

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by sniper1moore
I understand your views on IDPA,you are a slow shooter

You have decided to insult me (incorrectly) and refuse to debate me on a single issue. Looks like you've got nothing.

[bulm540]

Originally posted by sniper1moore
You haven't hurt my feelings at all I was just wondering if you talked to people like that in person and if so do you still have all your teeth?

I understand your views on IDPA,you are a slow shooter and want to stop it from progressing into a speed shooting event you want to keep it "Tactical" (like moving forward into 9 BGs is Tactical).So you just keep putting everyone down to cover your short comings.I just laugh at you super tactical guys.Ken
DITTO!!!! shooters that get their Arse handed on a silver platter in an USPSA match by a class C shooter will have a bone to pick on.

[Custom Glock Racing]

This video (of me) clearly demonstrates what can happen when you wear the wrong shoes for your environment. I was wearing old street shoes, I could have worn cleats but I was lazy that day (my own stupidity got the best of me again). Cleats may not have prevented it but they certainly would have helped prevent it.

http://www.custom-glock.com/vid/crash-burn.wmv

As for the IPSC/USPSA equipment race, its it largely nonsense these days. Equipment may help but it wont win for you. Even in the ultra competitive high dollar Open Division old guns and guns using designs from the mid 90s still win.

[jobob]

Looks like you were having fun, though. Oops, you aren't suppose to have fun. You have to pretend you're shooting people. This is deadly serious, you know! And talk about impractical! Don't you know that space gun you're shooting wouldn't work for carry in an iwb holster? I bet it holds more than 10 rounds, too. Horrors! How 'gamey'.

[Steve Koski]

Matt,

What kind of animal is that on your chin?

Nice "muzzle downrange," "retain the firearm" fall. Expertly done (I mean it). A lot of folks could've created a real safety problem for themselves and others. Did you loose much skin?

I won't dispute if cleats would've helped over normal outdoor shoes. I wasn't there. But I've taken many a tumble wearing turf shoes, while on turf.

Koski

[Custom Glock Racing]

Its an Otter.

Luckily I have a pretty damn good sense of where my gun is pointed and I have never really been afraid to get hurt playing a sport. That was also not the first time I crashed and burned during a stage.

That surface was loose dirt and some gravel. I went back to get the suitcase then tried to take off too fast. My foot slipped backwards causing my body to go over center. With a gun in one hand and the suitcase in the other there was nothing I could do. Cleats or better shoes likely would have given my a bit more traction and prevented that foot from slipping. I just think its silly not to give shooters the option to pick shoes appropriate to the surface.

Not too much skin lost. See the pics below
http://www.custom-glock.com/wipeout/wipeout1.jpg
http://www.custom-glock.com/wipeout/wipeout2.jpg

[jobob]

Just a few battle scars.

BTW, I'm impressed the way you managed to keep the muzzle controlled and finger off the trigger. Good job!

[sniper1moore]

Steve,

What part of you being an ASSHAT do you want to debate?

I still think you want to down grade everyone to cover your short comings in your shooting abilities.

If you feel like you want to whine about any statements that I have made please feel free but just remember "A hit dog hollers".Ken

[Steve Koski]

Nice try, but you're the dog that's squealing!

[ryucasta]

Steve,

I believe the point that Marvin was trying to make was that there are many Practical/Self Defense handguns that are used by the general population that can’t be used for USPSA/IPSC or IDPA competition because of caliber.

Also what does wearing cleats or knee pads have to do with fostering equipment races? That line of reasoning reminds me of the discredited domino theory/effect. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_theory ).

With regards to Marvin’s comment regarding equipment I am in complete agreement.

Marvin states:
“Tell the shooters what guns are legal and where to wear them, then conceal the whole works. then let the shooters decide what they want on their feet or knees”

This is what USPSA and IPSC have done with the Production division. They provide a list of legal firearms which is updated regularly. They also provide parameters on the holster design that can be used in the division and where they must be placed on the body.

One more thing I would suggest you visit the IPSC, USPSA and IDPA websites and compare and contrast the three disciplines rule books that way you’ll discover that there are divisions in USPSA/IPSC where there is an equipment race (I.e. Open) but even that division still has to follow certain equipment guidelines. Also there are other divisions (I.e. Production) where the firearm has to stay pretty much stock.

Here’s the links to each organizations website.

http://www.ipsc.org/

http://www.uspsa.org/

http://www.idpa.com/

[Andrew Colglazier]

I shoot IDPA and USPSA. I don't care what people wear on their feet at the range, so long as they don't wear skis.

I will wear whatever the conditions dictate. If the range is muddy and wet, I will wear whatever will keep my feet dry and will provide good footing. If the weather is nice and dry, I will wear whatever will provide good support and traction without being too heavy or hot.

The last thing I want is a shooter going down on a COF with a loaded weapon because he/she chose the wrong shoe for the situation.

Safety over spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andy C.


Originally posted by Steve Koski
Nobody cares, that's why IpSC is IpSC and the gamers have their game.

Some of us just don't want IDPA to trot down the same path to equipment racemanship, non-practicality, and increasing irrelevance to self defense.

So when otherwise levelheaded guys like CGR claim that CLEATS are safety gear and should be allowed in IDPA, some of us say "now wait a minute..."

[tgrim]

It appears he slipped on an item that fell from the case. Watch the feet in the video closely.

I wear my regular "boat shoes" from sperry. So far, so good.

[Custom Glock Racing]

tgrim,

That was my mag, there was a madatory reload on that stage. I slipped on the loose dirt.

[dukeofurl]

I'm all for cleats.

I live in FL, the grass and dirt are really dewy if not already rain soaked most of the year.

Back a while ago, I did the exact same thing as Matt on one stage wearing street shoes. It was not pretty, I put 2 rounds over the berm.

Since then, I'll take any footwear advantage I can get.

[Speedrock]

"...have read posts about hiking boots but what I am really interested ..."

All the Clubs we shoot at have grass for the bays or ranges and "grass" doesn't equal what's on one's lawn. Can be rough, rocky and very uneven, etc. Also they all use the same props from the same pool that USPSA, etc. uses. Around here it means spring-loaded doors or those you have to hold open, etc.

Wear old heavy Mountain boots with Vibram lugged soles both for the ankle support and ability to jam heel or most any edge of the sole into the turf. Also doors and such get help from the "footwear"....

[DaleGribble]

Originally posted by Steve Koski
Some of us just don't want IDPA to trot down the same path to equipment racemanship, non-practicality, and increasing irrelevance to self defense.


IDPA lost all relevance to self defense when they mandated that the shooter must shoot a stage in the exact order that Benevolent Bill wants them to shoot it in!

And cleats are legitimate safety equipment, just like glasses and muffs. If you think they offer some kind of competitive advantage, which you must, since the mere mention of them has you frothing at the mouth, you're being pretty obtuse.

The last time I checked most competitive shooters aren't running the 40 in 4 seconds and cleats won't have any effect on the final standings.

[Carlitos]

Speedrock wrote: "Wear old heavy Mountain boots with Vibram lugged soles both for the ankle support and ability to jam heel or most any edge of the sole into the turf. Also doors and such get help from the "footwear"...."

I agree that Vibram is certainly appropriate and I even made a reference to Vibram in my original post (though it was comparing it to the sole used on the Bates and Original SWAT boots). I am re-posting my original thoughts on the use of tactical boots as being just as appropriate as our use of tactical vests and tactical 5.11 pants:

"One way to avoid [any question of "gamer" equiptment] & make sure your stuff is practical is to look at some of the Tactical supply houses on the web; many feature Original S.W.A.T brand boots or the similar/superior Bates brand Tactical boots; the latter have a very aggressive sole pattern (think Vibram sole for the new milenium) that is very grippy on all sufaces (thus, ultra practical). Most of these same places feature the most popular pants in IDPA: the 5.11s. Cactus Tactical and Arizona GunRunners come to mind - as well as the very controversial (but improved) Botach supply (go ahead and post your Botach horror stories if you want).

Moreover, the Original S.W.A.T. and Bates are worn by many, many LEOs - regular officers a well as Tac Ops guys so they really are the "real deal" and day-in-day out foot wear while still being very light (I'd suggest the ankle high versions). [these same folks wear the now common 5.11 pants - which we all agree are appropriate to wear to an IDPA match]

If these [boots] are not readily available/too pricey, Merril makes some light equivalents; look for light weight and an aggressive sole pattern. These should be for sale at any Sports Authority store.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

[Mayonaise]

Originally posted by DaleGribble
IDPA lost all relevance to self defense when they mandated that the shooter must shoot a stage in the exact order that Benevolent Bill wants them to shoot it in!

Not true. If COF's are designed well there can be more than one way to solve the problem within the rules. Ask JoeD

The last time I checked most competitive shooters aren't running the 40 in 4 seconds and cleats won't have any effect on the final standings.
Well, therefore they aren't needed. I agree. I'm sure speedrock is researching the "Americans with Disabilities Act" on that and will have some "paper" to serve the next match director that won't let him wear soccer cleats.

Marvin,
You're welcome to shoot any of my "retention" COF's you like with your "C" model. Though bring your own fire extinguisher and burn kit.

You guys crack me up!

[DaleGribble]

Originally posted by Mayonaise
Well, therefore they aren't needed. I agree. I'm sure speedrock is researching the "Americans with Disabilities Act" on that and will have some "paper" to serve the next match director that won't let him wear soccer cleats.


You guys crack me up!

Great reply, I'm surprised you didn't call me a gamer to! ;Q

I never said they weren't needed, so don't twist my words around to fit your narrow view of what the shooting sports should be! That type of conduct is dishonest and is cause for a FTDR!

[Custom Glock Racing]

[i]
You're welcome to shoot any of my "retention" COF's you like with your "C" model. Though bring your own fire extinguisher and burn kit.

You guys crack me up! [/B] I have done it before, I have no problem doing it again.

[Mayonaise]

Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing
I have done it before, I have no problem doing it again.


Good for you Matt.

I'm still trying to figure out why you post in IDPA threads since you no longer shoot IDPA. You rarely miss an opportunity to take a jab. Too much free time I suppose.

[Custom Glock Racing]

Because I still sponsors IDPA shooters and IDPA matches, I just dont shoot it anymore. And in this case it was an interesting discussion. Maybe if I buy pants with more pockets and lots of velcro I will be cooler.

[VincentZ]

I think it's pretty funny that there is a thread on what footwear is legal for use at IDPA matches. Wouldn't want to wear the wrong shoes. Yikes.

[fisherm]

Originally posted by VincentZ
I think it's pretty funny that there is a thread on what footwear is legal for use at IDPA matches. Wouldn't want to wear the wrong shoes. Yikes. Glad to provide some amusement. :)

I find it funny too that anyone would need to ask.
I should be able to compete in WHATEVER shoe (or not) I choose to wear on that day.

I think its pretty funny that it would be illegal to wear ANY type of shoe for IDPA.
Unlike soccer, I can't hurt anyone else wearing sharp spikes.
Who cares if I go barefoot, wear slippers, shoes, bunny slippers or waders?

With my size, I am slow to get moving and hard to stop. LOL
I therefore like to have GOOD brakes to slow the "machine" down once it gets moving.

I used to wear runing shoes when I played Ultimate Frisbee,
until I landed on my arse one too many times one wet day.
Started wearing soccer cleats after that, rain or shine.
Never slipped on my bum again.
Fell down a few times, but never slipped. :)


You are right about the second part too!
I wouldn't want to wear the wrong shoes only to find out when I get there that I can't compete in them!
I guess I could bring along a second pair and hope those are okay?
Or I could ask people who have competed extensively first? ;f
Barefoot isn't really an option for this tenderfoot. ;)


Thanks all for your suggestions and lively commentary.
I am enjoying reading the differing views.

[Mayonaise]

Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing
Because I still sponsors IDPA shooters and IDPA matches, I just dont shoot it anymore. And in this case it was an interesting discussion. Maybe if I buy pants with more pockets and lots of velcro I will be cooler.

Nah! Just stick with the rad skateboard tape and baggy gangsta shorts. Who knows? Maybe Vans will roll out cleats.;f

[Clay1]

For those of you that don't think asking about proper equipment a couple of threads to read:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4719&hl=shoes

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10280&hl=shoes

Perfectly understandable question for those of us that shoot these GAMES.

If you havent' noticed the "sport shoe/boot" market is huge. The market is there because the demand is there.

By the way Matt, I always enjoy reading your answers from someone who has "been there" and "done that". Some times I get the impression that some comments are based on a perception of how these games are played, but that person might not have even shot a single match.

Rick

[Speedrock]

Mayo,


"...serve the next match director that won't let him wear soccer cleats."

Cleats? Where did you see any mention of them by me? {They sure won't help my score!}

But, a muzzle might help yours?

[walangkatapat]

Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing
Well if you wear eye protection and ear protection at the range but not on the street then you are a gear queer by your own definition.

I may not wear cleats in daily life but I also dont walk/run or spend 90% of my time off the range in loose dirt, grass, gravel etc, if I did I would wear them.

I dont knowingly dive into the same surfaces or drop a knee in them, go prone etc without knee pads.

Do you want a guys who normally wears a suit running around a range with a loaded gun on a loose surface in wingtips for the sake of being tactical over being safe?

Cleats and pads and helmets if you want to wear them are truly just safety gear, the same as eyes and ears. You are playing a game, a sport, a competition with a scoreboard and a clock. Getting hurt detracts from the fun and disallowing equipment that helps prevent injury is plain stupid and negligent.

I may be a bit of a gamer but I am also someone who beleives in common sense and avoiding injury when possible during a game.
^6

[walangkatapat]

Originally posted by ryucasta
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47871381&parent_category_rn=4501259&vcat=REI_SEARCH

I use the Merrell Chameleon II Stretch Cross-Training Shoes for both IDPA and USPSA competition. I have found them to be a good all round shoe for both games.

Those don't look too bad.

[walangkatapat]

Originally posted by sniper1moore
With Steve Koski putting down everyone's opionion of what should be allowed I can see why anyone reading this thread would not want to give IDPA a try.I think alot of things need to be changed in IDPA but I'm not going to call someone dense or belittle them because their views differ from mine.I wonder if he actually talks to people with that attitude in person.Ken

Another ^6

[racine]

I wear my golf cleats from time to time with shorts and a loose "5 Oh" shirt( is that illegal?). I've never had anyone complain except some 5.11/photovest types, in the swat boots?! Sorry but those togs just scream GUN! I personally just came to shoot and don't advertise if I can help it. I know that a shooting school in Wash. state, where 'Mas' teaches, dropped IDPA as being too rigid and not realistic enough. The director thought the IDPA rules conflicted with some real life scenarios and realities.

[Mayonaise]

Originally posted by Speedrock
Mayo,
"...serve the next match director that won't let him wear soccer cleats."

Cleats? Where did you see any mention of them by me? {They sure won't help my score!}

But, a muzzle might help yours?


From this thread (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=5279190#post5279190)
As an aside FYI: <sic>Only shoot one or two sanctioned IDPA Matches per year and have copies of letters from several M.D.'s and Specialists staing the "Medical Necessity" of knee pads. So far the agressive Range Nazi types have all backed down once "papered" even if in shorts even if t took the free advice of the "Americans with Disabilities Act" almost certainly winning out if they personally get invited to court. {Also have a letterhead "note" from my lawyer in the range bag}

The point is, if you'll serve them papers about having padding for your knees, what's to stop you from serving papers for not allowing you to wear cleated shoes? At what point does it stop?

You could simply comply with the rules and wear them under your pants.

Or better yet. Don't shoot IDPA.

I know what I would do if I were "papered" by you. ;f

[tgrim]

someone wrote:
"You could simply comply with the rules and wear them under your pants.
Or better yet. Don't shoot IDPA.
I know what I would do if I were "papered" by you."


It's folks like that, that post and complain about "non-issues" that gives someone unfamiliar with IDPA a bad taste for the game.

Sure he could just wear them under his pants and there would not be an issue, but I think he has “other” motives.

It’s a game. It never claims to be training or real life.

They won’t even let me sit down range (in a safe spot) at aim at the shooters with a paint ball gun to make it more real.

Why aren’t those folks complaining that there is no stealing in football or why there are only three strikes in baseball? Want to wear cleats? Shoot another game that is geared towards your preferred outfit. Then if the SHTF you will be prepared to default to your training because you always wear cleats.

[fisherm]

Originally posted by tgrim
someone wrote:
Want to wear cleats? Shoot another game that is geared towards your preferred outfit. Then if the SHTF you will be prepared to default to your training because you always wear cleats.
I really don't understand why cleats is such a hot issue?

Having tried to keep pace with this thread it appears to me that people have issue with it because:

1. You don't wear cleats everyday.
2. It gives the person an advantage.
3. Its against the rules.

Did I miss any major ones?

1.
Seems to me that a LOT of the gear worn during a match is not everyday wear already.
And some of the gear rules are just not logical.
"I can wear knee pads under pants, but not with shorts".
"I can modify my holster for real CCW but not if you want to play this game." Thank goodness that changed.

Its obvious that the rules, as they exist, do not stop people from wearing gear outside of their normal everyday wear.
This line of argument doesn't hold true.


2.
If they were allowed, then there would be no advantage to anyone in particular.
Its not like cleats are outside the finiancial reach of a majority of the players? ;)
Responsible adults could then choose the most appropriate footwear for the occasion and terrain.



3.
Can't argue with this one.
It is illegal... for now.
It seems some people are simply advocating that the rule should be changed.

Now, arguing that you can't change the rule, because "thats the rule" isn't very logical to me!
And its simply not true.
The rules have been changed before, and will again.

As a newb, I would love to see logical arguments for and against changing the rule.
Maybe one day soon? :)
The only logical argument I have seen so far is the shooter safety issue.
Seems reasonable to not want to intentionally get scarred and damaged competing.



Now on to default training....
The funny thing is, my defualt training is to run FAST AND FURIOUSLY AWAY from 13 perps with guns! ;f
I would definitely not be charging in, guns blazing, hoping that I can shoot everyone twice COM before anybody hit me.
Cleats or no cleats!
LOL

Sure is fun in make believe though.
And it should help me if the time ever comes for real when I have to make that decision aginst 1 or 2 perps.
13!!! You gotta be kidding me! LOL



Peace - to both camps.

[DanV1317]

You should look into some soccer turf shoes. They arent really cleats, they just have alot of traction on the bottom and are extremly light. adidas makes a few pairs.

[Clay1]

Dan, if they are designed for soccer they would be illegal too. Here is a cut and paste from the rule book:

"2. Cleats.
Cleated shoes designed for specific sports (i.e., football, baseball, golf, etc.) may not be worn."

Since they were designed for soccer they would not be allowed.

[DaleGribble]

Originally posted by tgrim
It's folks like that, that post and complain about "non-issues" that gives someone unfamiliar with IDPA a bad taste for the game.

Actually, Bill Wilson and his cult of followers are the ones giving newbies a bad taste for IDPA!

People call it "I Don't Play Anymore" for a damn good reason!

Originally posted by tgrim
It’s a game. It never claims to be training or real life.

Want to wear cleats? Shoot another game that is geared towards your preferred outfit. Then if the SHTF you will be prepared to default to your training because you always wear cleats.

So if I wear regular shoes it's serious training that will save my life when the SHTF, but if I wear cleats it's only a game?



;Q

[tgrim]

“People call it "I Don't Play Anymore" for a damn good reason!”

I say fine, just go away and don’t complain about a game you don’t want to play. Some of us do. A good shooter is known by his/her aim not their footware. It's simply a rule of the game, deal with it.

“So if I wear regular shoes its serious training that will save my life when the SHTF, but if I wear cleats it's only a game?”

No, I stated it is not training but a game. My point was if you are used to running on grass/dirt with cleats, will you remember that you don’t have them on should the SHTF and you have lots of other things to think about.

This is still America. You can choose to play or not. I just can’t see the value of complaining about a game you don’t wish to participate in. If your goal is to change the game, you should get involved, lobby the appropriate people and change it from within. *****en on a web site will not forward your agenda.

[ryucasta]

...

[jobob]

Originally posted by tgrim
My point was if you are used to running on grass/dirt with cleats, will you remember that you don’t have them on should the SHTF and you have lots of other things to think about.

If you are use to shooting with ear protection, will you remember that you don't have it on should the SHTF and the sound of that first unmuffled shot stuns you? And without eye protection what will be your reaction when that piece of hot brass hits you in the eye? And if someone pulls a weapon on you, will you be waiting for the range commands, or be taking defensive action? Funny, but when I'm hunting it doesn't seem to matter that I'm wearing boots, but I had on tenny runners at the range to practice. I don't shoot with my feet.

All these rules, for no good apparent reason, are what makes IDPA not very attractive to me. The game is locked into this stringent set of "thou shalt nots" which takes away the flexibility, both of the shooter to use his brain to solve a problem, and in regard to equipment developement. It takes away from the fun, too. In 50 years, when the rest of the world is shooting focused energy beams, IDPA (if it still exists, which is doubtfull) will still be arguing about extended mag releases. This inflexibility keeps people away, and will not allow equipment or tactics to improve, and is not very practical in my opinion. USPSA is more practical, in that shooters are encouraged to be flexible in equipment and methods to solve a problem.

You said it, a good shooter is known by his shooting, not his footwear, and USPSA is much more interested in his shooting than what's on his feet. Or if he has an extended mag release. Or has magazines which hold more than 10 rnds. And if the shooter has the need to compete under those limitations, he can shoot in Production division. I guess it comes down to the fact that USPSA is inclusive, IDPA is exclusive.