Tactical Shooting Association (TSA)

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Hi Guys,

FYI: Just wanted to let you know about a new shooting sport called "TSA" which stands for the Tactical Shooting Association. We are looking for input...

Dave Sevigny has finished the classifier for us and the Rule Book is on line for easy viewing (we also have it in PDF download). We have a new TSA target, new TSA score sheets and new TSA match scoring software that works on virtually any computer.

We have a Major/Minor scoring system that Dave & I both agree is the perfect balance of Speed & Accuracy.

We will be tweaking the Rule Book over the next few months. The TSA forums are for TSA members, but you can view them here for free:

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/index.php

Check out the TSA website at www.TacticalShootingAssociation.com. for more information.

Thanks,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

www.TacticalShootingAssociation.com

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Here is info on the TSA Classifier course:

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313&page=1&pp=10

The TSA Rule Book is found here:

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313&page=1&pp=10

www.TacticalShooting.com

www.TacticalShootingAssociation.com:

[Joe D]

Clarify something for me. A -3 major hit is .75 sec added to your time? A minor -3 = 1.50 sec added, correct?

[D.R.Middlebrook]

There's a typo in the online rule book, so it's a bit confusing, sorry! This is scheduled for correction at the monthly update over the weekend:

A Major caliber hit is .25 seconds per point down, Minor is .50 per point down.

So a "Down 3" hit would be .75 seconds for Major and 1.50 seconds added to the time for Minor...

Thanks for asking,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[mike4045]

I had the same question when looking thru your rules. I am in the process of getting a local club started. I will let them know about TSA and see if they want to try it instead. I did set up your classifier and shoot it Sunday. Shot 100 on it, decent test of skills. I did miss the dot at 20 yds.

Without a scale or boxes which guns fall into which cat? Glock 35 in same div. as govt. model? Size about same, but the 35 is lighter.


Mike

[MarkP]

"the TSA box" is the same dimension as the idpa/ipsc box.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

In TSA competition, the handguns are separated by Size & Weight.

There are basically (3) sizes of pistols used in TSA competition: Full Size, Mid Size & Compact Pistol. There is also a special class for experimental guns. Here are the (4) pistol divisions:

Full-size Pistol (FP): 40 oz. Max.

Mid-size Pistol (MP): 35 oz. Max.

Compact Pistol (CP): 30 oz. Max.

Factory Experimental (F/X): 40 oz. Max.

There are many factory guns that will fall into the above categories. It should be noted that there is a box rule requirement for each size and type of gun. There are also weight limit requirements for each size/type gun. The weight limits for the handgun divisions are 40 oz., 35 oz. and 30 oz. respectively.

In regards to custom modifications, the ONLY restrictions are NO electronic sights; NO recoil compensators and NO barrel porting is allowed. Note: The handgun must fit into the appropriate box for the division with the magazine incerted.

For Full-size handguns the box measures: 8-3/4” x 6” x 1-5/8”.

For Mid-size handguns the box measures: 7-3/4” x 6” x 1-5/8”.

For Compact-size handguns the box measures: 7-3/4” x 5-1/4” x 1-5/8”.

There is also a special “F/X” Division for Factory Experimental Handguns to compete. Basically, you can do anything you want to the F/X guns. If it fits into the Full-size box and makes weight, you can shoot it. Compensators, Barrel Porting Lasers and electronic sights are specifically allowed...

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Custom Glock Racing]

Originally posted by MarkP
"the TSA box" is the same dimension as the idpa/ipsc box. IPSC and IDPA have different sized boxes.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Matt is correct...

The TSA box is the same as the IDPA box. We use the American way of measuring with fractions and inches. We also use rulers, not dial calipers to measure things. :cool:

[MarkP]

I stand corrected - it's the idpa box!

[LeadStorm]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
In TSA competition, the handguns are separated by Size & Weight.

Full-size Pistol (FP): 40 oz. Max.



40 oz. Max will leave out most of my 1911's

[D.R.Middlebrook]

It should be noted that the WEIGHT LIMIT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE MAGAZINE and that the guns will be weighed EMPTY (NO MAG).

It should also be noted that most gun makers published "EMPTY" handgun weight INCLUDES the magazine. And a typical double stack steel mag weighs 3+ oz.

FWIW: The stock M1911 Colt .45 is 38 ounces. An STI 2011 gun weighs in at under 40 oz. And that's with a bull barrel, tungsten guide rod, long dust cover and/or a tactical light rail. And that's without any lightening cuts...

[DaleGribble]

D.R., I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I do have a question that seems to be a touchy subject with the IDPA crowd.

Why aren't you allowing cleats?

The safety advantage far out weighs the negligible competitive advantage that a person MIGHT gain by using them. On the other hand I do like the fact that you guys decided to allow knee pads.

If a match shows up in my area I'll definitely give it a try! I hope you and Dave can make this a success!

[Custom Glock Racing]

Good question Dale.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Thanks for asking, Dale...

Kneepads: At the IDPA Nat’s few years back, I got an arrowhead shaped stone stuck in my knee and had to have it pulled out with pair of pliers. I saw a lot of other guys walking around with bloody, scabby knees, too. My friend had to have knee surgery after he had the same thing happen to him (only worse) at an IPSC match. So, I consider kneepads to be a safety device used to prevent injury, especially on gravel or hard surfaces.

Now, some people might argue that kneepads are not practical for the street. Well, I've had to do a few double leg takes downs on pavement, and I find kneepads are VERY practical. I prefer them sewn into the pants, but when wearing shorts on hot days, I don’t have problem with anyone using them.

Cleats: I don’t see a need for them in this sport. Not a lot of movement involved and they don’t work well on pavement or stairs. A good shoe or boot like “Original SWAT” works just fine on the street or in the city park. I wear mine most everyday.

Bottom Line: We’re trying to get the guys to wear street gear and shoot their carry guns.

Thanks for the interest,

D.R.

[DaleGribble]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
Thanks for asking, Dale...

Cleats: I don’t see a need for them in this sport. Not a lot of movement involved and they don’t work well on pavement or stairs. A good shoe or boot like “Original SWAT” works just fine on the street or in the city park. I wear mine most everyday.

Bottom Line: We’re trying to get the guys to wear street gear and shoot their carry guns.

Thanks for the interest,

D.R.

I don't agree with you about the cleats, but at least you answered my question and you answered it in a calm and level headed manner. I appreciate that!

Thanks and good luck with the TSA. I look forward to shooting in one of your matches!

[Speedrock]

"Kneepads: At the IDPA Nat’s few years back, I got an arrowhead shaped stone stuck in my knee and had to have it pulled out with pair of pliers."

As an aside FYI: Only shoot one or two sanctioned IDPA Matches per year and have copies of letters from several M.D.'s and Specialists staing the "Medical Necessity" of knee pads. So far the agressive Range Nazi types have all backed down once "papered" even if in shorts even if t took the free advice of the "Americans with Disabilities Act" almost certainly winning out if they personally get invited to court. {Also have a letterhead "note" from my lawyer in the range bag}

Note: So far not one IDPA Match have attended under their new rules has had appropriate ground mats for the "One knee must touch" rule spots in any COF have shot.

[Mayonaise]

Originally posted by Speedrock
"Kneepads: At the IDPA Nat’s few years back, I got an arrowhead shaped stone stuck in my knee and had to have it pulled out with pair of pliers."

As an aside FYI: Only shoot one or two sanctioned IDPA Matches per year and have copies of letters from several M.D.'s and Specialists staing the "Medical Necessity" of knee pads. So far the agressive Range Nazi types have all backed down once "papered" even if in shorts even if t took the free advice of the "Americans with Disabilities Act" almost certainly winning out if they personally get invited to court. {Also have a letterhead "note" from my lawyer in the range bag}

Note: So far not one IDPA Match have attended under their new rules has had appropriate ground mats for the "One knee must touch" rule spots in any COF have shot.

~okie~

[HeadHunter]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
There's a typo in the online rule book, so it's a bit confusing, sorry! This is scheduled for correction at the monthly update over the weekend:

A Major caliber hit is .25 seconds per point down, Minor is .50 per point down.

www.TacticalShooting.com I suggest the time penalty for minor vis-a-vis major should be .22/100ths of 1 per cent since that is the increase in sectional area of a .45 over 9mm when compared to the size of the male human torso. So that would make major .25 per point and, if we round up, minor as .26 per point.

Oops, sorry, bringing facts into the picture again. It's a terrible habit of mine; I'm trying to break myself of it but it's tougher than kicking crack. ;f

[Mayonaise]

Originally posted by HeadHunter
I'm trying to break myself of it but it's tougher than kicking crack. ;f

Just say NO to crack and say YES to ZIMA!

[Morris]

Interesting! I'll have to look into this association a bit more.

[HeadHunter]

Originally posted by Mayonaise
say YES to ZIMA! And a cake!

[D.R.Middlebrook]

The latest Rule Book updates are posted at the TSA website:

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/tsa/rulebook.html

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/index.php

www.TacticalShooting.com

[agalb]

I have elected to edit this post because of attitude and language. This is an informational forum and not a mud-slinging room.
-DannyR

[Steve Koski]

A quick glance through the rule book gives me the distinct impression that TSA is 90% IDPA. The major difference being that the equipment rules are loosely worded.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

The major differences between IDPA and TSA are as follows:

Increased Round Count

Use of High Cap Mags

Handguns separated by size and weight (Full-size, Mid-size & Compact)

Optional 3-Gun Format

Major/Minor scoring

More Steel (reactionary) Targets

Tougher, more realistic cardboard target complete with threat indicators

Trouble free Match scoring software

A Grand Master Division

Fewer Restrictions and simplicity of rules

TSA is a shooting sport that treats all competitors equally and fairly. It also affords you the following freedoms:

Freedom to choose the holster you like (if you can conceal it, you can use it).

Freedom to choose the gun you want in the caliber (major/minor) that you like.

Freedom to customize the gun the way you want it.

Freedom to experiment with equipment and loads.

It is our endeavor not to stagnate or hinder the development of practical fighting guns and gear. We want the evolution of the combat pistol to continue, as well as the evolution of shooting technique and practical street gear.

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Navy87Guy]

Are you going to start posting a schedule of TSA matches at your facility? The TSA web page says to check the forum for upcoming matches -- but the forum hasn't been updated since July.

Jim

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
Freedom to customize the gun the way you want it.


Huh? All divisions have restrictions.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

The ONLY restrictions are on handgun size & weight (which determines which gun division you shoot in).

Other than NO comps, NO added weights and NO electronic sights, you can customize the gun the way you see fit.

In the F/X class anything goes: Comps, Electronic sights, etc...

[Gary G23]

I'm glad you don't give special treatment to revolvers. I never understood why IDPA came up with a "box rule" and then excluded revolvers from complying. How many people actually carry an N frame revolver everyday anyway.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Originally posted by Navy87Guy
Are you going to start posting a schedule of TSA matches at your facility? The TSA web page says to check the forum for upcoming matches -- but the forum hasn't been updated since July.

Jim

TSA is still in its infancy (just 8 months old). We have been experimenting with the rules and with match scoring all summer. Our biggest hold up has been the development of the new Match Scoring software, that and our new home range was delayed in its final construction due to weather. After the 1st of the year, we will have an updated match schedule on the TSA forums.

Looks like we will be holding matches here (Tactical Shooting Academy home range) on the second Sunday of each month, with a MAJOR Championship match in the fall.

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[D.R.Middlebrook]

FYI: We are offering FREE Charter TSA Club Memberships until January 1st, 2006...

Charter Club Membership Annual Fee: Regularly $100 per year, NOW free until January 1st, 2006

TSA Shooting Clubs will receive a link from the TSA Forums, TSA membership certificate (suitable for framing), and TSA decals. They will also receive a free Match Scoring Software CD at no charge. Note: The TSA Rulebook is updated monthly and can be viewed online and/or downloaded from the website at anytime in PDF format.

TSA Contact Information:

Write: TSA, 7368 Colonial Trail East, Surry, VA 23883
Tel: 757-357-9881
Fax: 801-730-2238
Email: TSA@TacticalShooting.com
Website: www.TacticalShooting.com

[kinsco]

Hey DR,

Are there any TSA matches in the Tampa BAy area in Florida? I have spoken with several members of IPSC shooters and IDPA shooters that would like to try TSA. If there isnt any matches here, what does it take to start some?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
The ONLY restrictions are on handgun size & weight (which determines which gun division you shoot in).

Other than NO comps, NO added weights and NO electronic sights, you can customize the gun the way you see fit.

In the F/X class anything goes: Comps, Electronic sights, etc...

So there ARE restrictions in all divisions, and you're NOT free to customize the gun any way you want.

[Steve Koski]

Full-size Pistol (FP) Division

Action Type: Any Double or Single Action center fire handgun can be used.

Ammunition: Any caliber of .355” or larger can be used, either Major or Minor Power Factor. NO Hollow Point, Soft Point or Glazer type ammo is allowed. No Armor Piercing (A.P.) ammo is permitted. NO ammo over 1,500 FPS allowed.

Maximum Handgun Weight: The maximum (unloaded) weight limit for any handgun shall be 40 ounces WITHOUT the magazine.

NO Added Weights: NO barrel weights, heavy lugs or flanges; NO Added weights of any kind. Note: Steel guide rods are specifically allowed, as are long dust covers IF the gun makes weight and fits into the box.

Light Rails: Light rails (or accessory rails) are specifically allowed.

Barrel Porting: NO barrel venting, porting or muzzle gas exhaust type recoil compensators are allowed. NO add on barrel weights, heavy lugs or flanges. Tapered cone & cylindrical (bull) barrels are specifically allowed.

Sights: NO optical or electronic sights allowed. Traditional Night Sight (Tritium) inserts are specifically allowed. Fiber Optic inserts and Ghost Ring sights are specifically allowed.

Flash Lights: On stages that allow them in the course description, flashlights may be attached to the handgun anytime AFTER the signal to draw is given. Note: IF your gun fits into the TSA box with the flashlight attached, and it fits in your holster, and the gun/light combo makes the weight limit requirements, then you may start with it on the gun.

Lightening Cuts: Lightening cuts are specifically allowed, as we believe “Light is Right” for carry guns.

Magazines: ALL magazines must fit inside the TSA BOX when installed in the pistol. Bumper pads must be made from Aluminum or Polymer (not brass, lead or steel).

Magazine Wells & Mag Shute Extensions: The maximum size of the magazine well entrance cannot exceed 1-5/16” wide x 2.5” long (NO EXCEPTIONS).

Magazine Base Pads: The maximum weight of any base pad cannot be more than (1.1) total ounces.

Magazine Capacity: No restrictions. However, in order to test reloading skills, we reserve the right to have you download to a given number of rounds to start (this is to induce a slide lock reload). After that, you can reload with as many rounds in the mag as you wish.

Box Rule Requirements: For the FP Division, the handgun with magazine inserted must fit into a box which measures: 8-3/4” x 6” x 1-5/8”.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

I said, "The ONLY restrictions are on handgun size & weight (which determines which gun division you shoot in).

Other than NO comps, NO added weights and NO electronic sights, you can customize the gun the way you see fit.

In the F/X class anything goes: Comps, Electronic sights, etc... "

Now, show me a restriction NOT related to size and weight, other than comps and electronic sights...

[Steve Koski]

DR,

You said "Freedom to customize the gun the way you want it."

Now I will list several issues that are "... a restriction NOT related to size and weight, other than comps and electronic sights..."

<b>Magazine Wells & Mag Shute [sic] Extensions: The maximum size of the magazine well entrance cannot exceed 1-5/16” wide x 2.5” long (NO EXCEPTIONS). </b>

1) The gun could fit in the box and be of the proper weight, but not be legal due to an illegally sized mag well or chute. This is a restriction.

<b>Ammunition: Any caliber of .355” or larger can be used, either Major or Minor Power Factor. NO Hollow Point, Soft Point or Glazer type ammo is allowed. No Armor Piercing (A.P.) ammo is permitted. NO ammo over 1,500 FPS allowed.</b>

2) A gun could be the right size/weight but not be legal due to a caliber of less than .355". Another restriction.

3) OR...the gun could be illegal because the shooter wants to use hollowpoint ammo that they have determined it is more accurate. You just restricted a third time!

3.1) What if they want to compete with their carry ammo (that is a good idea, for a self-defense styled shooting sport) and they don't want to carry plain lead, FMJ, or plated bullets? They can't. It was restricted away.

4) A shooter might be able to make the overall weight requirement for the division, but he wants to use an "added weight" of some sort. He can't do that, because the rules specifically disallow it. Another restriction. Yes, this relates to weight, but why have sub-restrictions? Isn't the division weight restriction enough? This doesn't fit the spirit of "Freedom to customize the gun the way you want it."

<b>Summing Up</b>
The TSA has size restrictions, detailed weight restrictions, sight restrictions, caliber restrictions, bullet type restrictions, and magwell dimension restrictions. Certainly some restrictions are necessary and warranted in any shooting sport. But, TSA most certainly does NOT have "Freedom to customize the gun the way you want it."

I'm not trying to be a jackass (although some would argue that point), I'm just calling a spade a spade, and trying to encourage you to be intellectually honest about your restrictions. TSA has <b>LESS</b> restrictions.

Take care,

Koski

[MarkP]

Steve,

You have taken the art of nit-picking to a new level.

Taking care,
MarkP

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Steve,

With the exception of ammo requirements, ALL the things you’re arguing about are RELATED TO SIZE & WEIGHT...

If you don’t want to shoot TSA, cool. No one is forcing you to do so. Find a shooting sport without weight limits or box rule requirements (that lets you shoot sub 9MM caliber bullets)and just have fun.

Take care,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[kinsco]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
Steve,

With the exception of ammo requirements, ALL the things you’re arguing about are RELATED TO SIZE & WEIGHT...

If you don’t want to shoot TSA, cool. No one is forcing you to do so. Find a shooting sport without weight limits or box rule requirements (that lets you shoot sub 9MM caliber bullets)and just have fun.

Take care,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

Hey DR, what about my question? :):)

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Here ya go...

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1566#post1566

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by MarkP
Steve,

You have taken the art of nit-picking to a new level.

Taking care,
MarkP

Mark,

Think "Freedom to customize the gun anyway you want" and then go read the TSA rule book. I bet you'll come away with the same feeling I did. Or perhaps you're unable or unwilling to notice.

All these restrictions that somehow (as an article of faith, I guess) still satisfy "TSA RULE #1: The evolution of shooting technique and equipment shall not be infringed! The ONLY restrictions on firearms and equipment shall be that of practicality and/or concerning concealment/carry issues."

Isn't shooting your carry JHPs practical? I guess not in your world.

Koski

[D.R.Middlebrook]

No, shooting Hollow Points in matches is not practical. They can be dangerous on steel and expensive to shoot. Further, since the targets don't shoot back, there is no need to shoot them.

Tell me, honestly Steve, what kind of ammo do you shoot in mathces? And what kind of matches do you attend?


www.TacticalShooting.com

[Carlitos]

"They can be dangerous on steel and expensive to shoot."

That is not true if you use common sense.

Cost: All I shoot is Zero 124 and 147grn JHPs; the cost over a non JHP is negligible and the accuracy is better with a JHP. Typical reloaded ammo costs less than $3.50 per 50 rounds and the IDPA and USPSA Nationals surveys indicates plenty of reloaders among competition shooters. If you want to find expensive JHPs as an example, I am sure its possible, but for competition use, why would you? Even cheap TMJ'd Ranier are available in JHP.

Safety: JHPs unsafe? Got proof? USPSA, IDPA, GSSF and CAS (lead only) all allow hollow point bullets to be used on steel at a safe distance. Are you claiming that these forms of competition are unsafe? Please. If you are getting ricochets, then your steel is worn out and should be replaced. Don't blame the shooter's JHPs for your failure to provide serviceable steel targets. The other possibility is that you are placing the steel too close to the shooter (which IS unsafe w/o expensive frangible bullets) and with experience, you will learn not to place steel closer than 10 yards.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson
Team Shooters Paradise GSSF I
USPSA/NROI RO
www.shootersparadise.com

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Yeah, I got proof, so does Paul Miller: ER bills and scars on shooters...

Paul and I both agree on this issue as we are the ones paying the insurance premiums and the deductibles.

And yes, I am shooting regulation (NEW) steel at no closer than 10 yards (thank you for your concern, glad you pointed that out).

And YES, I am saying that shooting HP's on steel is unsafe. You can quote me on that...

You don't see the problem very often, but I have seen it several times. It's usually not the shooter who gets fragged, but to the RSO and others off to the side.

I do not have any reason to ban HP's other than for safety issues.

Bottom Line: I WILL NOT sacrifice safety for any reason, especially when I KNOW there is a problem.

Respectfully,

D.R.

[JWG_34]

Im not sure where the info comes from,but if you think about it,any bullet can be dangerous on steel targets,if they have many divits in them( I guess I can call them that)the little indents from so many hits, now that will send a bullet right back at you if it hits just right.

Just my 2cents worth.
Jeff

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Good point Jeff, thanks...

I'm not trying to be a prick here, but I have witnessed this on many occasions. We shoot a LOT of steel, but 12 years at the WSO's convinced me of the following:

1. The FMJ's flatten out (pancake)up against the steel, as the exposed lead in the back helps this action, resulting in no problem whatsoever.

2. JHP's do just the opposite. They mushroom and the jacket peels (curls) backwards and then comes flying off the target.

Now, granted the incidents are few and far between, and any experienced person will tell you that bullets do weird things.

But all I need is 2 or 3 witnesses to prove that anything is a fact (at least to me, in my mind).

Believe me, it would be a lot easier to let people shoot anything they wanted. I just can't do it in good conscious. For this reason and others.

Shoot safe,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Fireglock]

You will disallow plated bullets too correct?

[D.R.Middlebrook]

No, the ONLY things NOT allowed are Hollow Points, Soft Points and Glaser type ammo. Anything else is fine...

Of course AP ammo is not allowed as it screws up the steel and Tracers cause forrest fires...

[murph2127]

Guess another byproduct of the no expanding ammo rule is if someone ND's in the holster shoots themself in the butt he should recover more quickly.

This isn't a barb at TSA shooters, people of all diciplines have made that mistake, and it does happen. There was talk at the range of a recent article in a police magazine that had a discussion of this very subject. Something to the effect that since more LE agencies were using their carry hollowpoints for training, the number of amputations from that kind of wound was happening more often, as the hollowpoints are more likely to do more nasty damage than ball ammo will. I did not read it myself, was listening to two LE's discussing.

Ted

[D.R.Middlebrook]

I had a guy here today who got shot by one of his students. He’s a military instructor who got shot in the hand trying to deflect the muzzle away from other students when the guy broke the 180 with the muzzle. He took a 9MM NATO round through the hand. He’s screwed up, permanently, but it’s not nearly as bad as it could have been with a JHP.

There's been a lot of LEO's getting shot (and killed) in training lately, too…

I have to ask if the ammo would have a difference? I think so. Some departments have to shoot issue “street” ammo in training, which I think is stupid.

I like the idea of testing your carry ammo and gear, but not in training and not in a match. The risks far out weigh the benefits.

Stay safe,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Fireglock]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
I had a guy here today who got shot by one of his students. He’s a military instructor who got shot in the hand trying to deflect the muzzle away from other students when the guy broke the 180 with the muzzle. He took a 9MM NATO round through the hand. He’s screwed up, permanently, but it’s not nearly as bad as it could have been with a JHP.

There's been a lot of LEO's getting shot (and killed) in training lately, too…

I have to ask if the ammo would have a difference? I think so. Some departments have to shoot issue “street” ammo in training, which I think is stupid.

I like the idea of testing your carry ammo and gear, but not in training and not in a match. The risks far out weigh the benefits.

Stay safe,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

Sounds like safety training is the problem, not the ammo. I have been hit and cut more times by plated bullets and lead bullets splattering than by JHPs. I would think if you believe FMJs are the best that's what you would limit projectiles to. I myself do use JHPs, not for realism, they just happen to shoot well in my pistols with my loads.

[Custom Glock Racing]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
Yeah, I got proof, so does Paul Miller: ER bills and scars on shooters...
DR,

Pauls range has not seen new steel in years. They all look like DSS dishes, concaved and pitted to hell, thats why there are so many frags are thrown at San Juan, not HPs.

My personal views,

If you shoot steel you will get fragged at times. It is going to happen with any bullet design and its a calculated and known risk to the participants.

In many hundreds of thouthands of rounds and even more observed I have never seen an increase in frags with HP as long at the shooter is at a safe distance (10+ y/m) and the steel is in good shape and of good design.

I personally prefer HP for comp shooting simply because I get better accuracy.

Anyway, it seems we disagree but thats not a problem, just how life goes sometimes. Hope the new sport is successful, best of luck with it.

[slidelock1]

I don't have near the experience you guys have, but I have shot a lot of steel and have never had or witnessed a problem with HP ammo.

But upon reviewing the rules and classifier I did not like that one of the strings requires starting facing up range. The range I belong to has a rule against just that as part of their 180 rule. Now if we ask we can sometimes use this starting position in a match with RO instruction and supervision. But I can not go out and set up the stage and shoot it as it is written. I still want to try it and I like it as it sounds easier to set up than the IDPA. I will just add a second for fair compairison.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Originally posted by Custom Glock Racing
Anyway, it seems we disagree but thats not a problem, just how life goes sometimes. Hope the new sport is successful, best of luck with it.

Thanks Matt,

For you to know we are changing the "added weight" restriction, figuring that the gun either makes weight or it won't. This should open up your Glock to a world of customizing. :)

We're also still tweaking the rules for overall simplicity...

Slidelock1:

Maybe you could convince them you are not drawing until after you have turned?

D.R.

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
No, shooting Hollow Points in matches is not practical. They can be dangerous on steel and expensive to shoot. Further, since the targets don't shoot back, there is no need to shoot them.

Tell me, honestly Steve, what kind of ammo do you shoot in mathces? And what kind of matches do you attend?


www.TacticalShooting.com

Honestly:

Last night at an indoor "fun match" I shot 165 grain Gold Dots over 6.5 gr Unique. It's a new carry load that I wanted to make sure functioned in my G35 and G27. I also shoot 165 Montana Gold JHPs over 7.5 gr Power Pistol about 30% of the time for fun. 70% of the time I shoot plated bullets, but I want to shoot carry ammo now and then, at matches.

I shoot steel, IDPA, "handgun" (similar to USPSA), 3 gun, some indoor "fun" matches, and USPSA matches (but I haven't shot a USPSA match since late '04).

Your turn. What kind of ammo do you shoot in matches, and what kind of matches do you attend?

[Steve Koski]

I have been fragged MANY times, usually by jacketed, plated, or JHP ammo. It has happened with plain lead bullets, but this is far less common.

But I wear safety glasses, so the risk is minimized. The worst that's happened to me is that I have to pull a chunk of jacket out of my forehead and wash the slice when I get home.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Honestly, I have not shot a match in three years…

I went into retirement at age 50 and have been busy teaching and building guns.

My carry ammo is ALWAYS off the shelf, name brand fodder.

Stay safe,

D.R.

[Custom Glock Racing]

Have you considered banning lead bullets? I would be all for it.

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
Honestly, I have not shot a match in three years…

I went into retirement at age 50 and have been busy teaching and building guns.

My carry ammo is ALWAYS off the shelf, name brand fodder.

I would never recommend using reloads for carry ammo, never. WAY TOO much liability. I did shoot the IDPA Nat’s in 2000 using my sponsor’s ammo: Cor-Bon Tactical 125 JHP in 9MM, very accurate stuff...

Stay safe,

D.R.

D.R.

Very cool. I enjoy the trigger time too much to retire, and I'm a spry 37. I founded a pistol club in '97 that's running stronger than ever. I'm the "equipment guy" in the club now.

I'm of the camp that the "I would never recommend using reloads for carry ammo, never. WAY TOO much liability..." is just gunwriter lore that is passed on and generally accepted, with little or no factual basis.

To my knowlege, a good shoot is a good shoot, and nobody has ever shown a case where reloaded ammo was a factor. If you know of any referenceable cases, please cite them.

Koski

[slidelock1]

Well the range is open to the public and this rule is not in place because of the serious shooters but for the newbies and of course the occasional yahoo. And it maybe for insurance purposes. There is even a rule that states rate of fire cannot exceed one round per second, but that one is understood to only be enforced when someone is spraying bullets. The rule was put in place after a couple of idiots came in and started bump-firing AR's all over the rifle range. We are lucky the guy that owns/runs the range is a shooter and understands the member needs, and we understand he needs the cash of the non-members who come in and drop 25.00 bucks each time they shoot.

One rule states, "All shots must be aimed."
thanks,

[Carlitos]

Slightly off topic, but you stated:

"There is even a rule that states rate of fire cannot exceed one round per second, but that one is understood to only be enforced when someone is spraying bullets. . . One rule states, "All shots must be aimed."

-these generally come from the NRA's "Model Range Rules" - which I have a big problem with considering that the model rules include rules used to BAN the following sports:

-USPSA/IPSC
-IDPA
-CAS and
-TSA

How? All of these sports are shot faster than "1 shot per second".

In addition, the NRA's model rules can include:

"No Humanoid shaped targets"

-again, all of the above sports allow, if not require humanoid shaped targets (except IPSC - which uses a politically correct target).

-that is right, the NRA only allows humanoid targets in PPC - which is CLOSED to civilians.

I think that the NRA does good work. However, I would like to see them:

-revise the model rules,
-open PPC to everyone (esp CCW holders)
-encourage the use of humanoid shaped defensive pistol targets
-drop "Action Pistol" and adopt/encourage USPSA, IDPA, IPSC and TSA.

As for the steel issue, I agree with Matt.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

[murph2127]

Why drop action pistol and keep PPC? At least action pistol was always open to the public.

Ted

[Carlitos]

NRA's Action Pistol was supposed to be the NRA's answer to IPSC (actually, its called USPSA in the US, not IPSC). How?

-use of holsters, ammo with a minimum power factor & scoring is a combination of speed and accuracy. Steel would be used (plate rack) and there would be multiple stages. As stated above NO HUMANOID TARGETS sinc the NRA only allows police military to shoot at those.

- the key feature is that the NRA could control Action Pistol (whereas they have no control whatsoever over USPSA or IPSC).

What happened?

The NRA failed to grow the sport & very few clubs shoot it. Even though there are many stages that can be shot, the few clubs that shoot just shoot the same 3 or 4 stages over & over.

In contrast, USPSA has grown worldwide and IDPA has grown as well. You will never EVER see the exact same USPSA match or IDPA match; only the classifiers stay the same. It is always a new challenge.

The NRA's famous "Bianchi Cup" championship dwindled to about 150 shooters this past year and with all the controversial rule changes, it does not appear as if next year's cup will be any bigger.

But you raise a valid issue about PPC & Action Pistol: do they have any relavence to either CCW/defensive pistol practice or to modern police training? As for the latter, I will ask the question on the LEO section of this page.

[MarkP]

Originally posted by Steve Koski
Mark,

Think "Freedom to customize the gun anyway you want" and then go read the TSA rule book. I bet you'll come away with the same feeling I did. Or perhaps you're unable or unwilling to notice.

[cut]

Koski

I've taken my glock 17 that's dremeled and stippled the way I want it and added an M3 light and a steel guide rod.
It's a carry and comp'n gun.

Makes weight and fits in the box too ;)

[Clay1]

Mark, I think that you will find that the M3 will add more muzzle control than the tungsten GR.

One of the reasons that IDPA doesn't allow lights. Once you shoot with one on your gun you won't want to take it off. I have one (M3X) on a G34 with a Novak full length SS GR and that gun shoots extremely flat. I love it.

I wish that someone in my area would bring TSA in. I sent the TSA website link to a local range owner who is running matching that he calls a cross between IDPA and USPSA matches. He is a police officer and likes the concealment of IDPA but they let you drop the mags and you can use whatever holster you want. I told him that TSA might best fit into his philosophy of what a match should be.

Rick

[MarkP]

Rick,

Sounds like TSA is exactly what they are looking for.
We just had our December match today that included 4 handgun stages , 1 shotgun stage and 1 rifle/carbine stage.
We even had a participant use his suppressed-Uzi subgun (TSA has subgun division!) instead of the glock he normally runs with.

Two of the HG stages were accuracy heavy and the other 2 stages were more run&gun with cover.
Good times.

Mark

[Clay1]

Sounds like a grand time Mark. If we every get a club in this area that runs it, I will be there.

I don't know what the costs are to affiliate with IDPA, USPSA or TSA as a club. I hope that the TSA affiliation is reasonable and it spreads quickly. More shooting opportunities are good for shooters so I support the idea whole heartedly.

Again, glad that you had a good time.

Rick

[MarkP]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
FYI: We are offering FREE Charter TSA Club Memberships until January 1st, 2006...

Charter Club Membership Annual Fee: Regularly $100 per year, NOW free until January 1st, 2006

TSA Shooting Clubs will receive a link from the TSA Forums, TSA membership certificate (suitable for framing), and TSA decals. They will also receive a free Match Scoring Software CD at no charge. Note: The TSA Rulebook is updated monthly and can be viewed online and/or downloaded from the website at anytime in PDF format.

TSA Contact Information:

Write: TSA, 7368 Colonial Trail East, Surry, VA 23883
Tel: 757-357-9881
Fax: 801-730-2238
Email: TSA@TacticalShooting.com
Website: www.TacticalShooting.com

Rick,
TSA is offering a free club charter membership deal - you could be the point-of-contact for your club. Check it out.

Mark

[Clay1]

Thanks for the info Mark. I will pass along the info.

Rick

[FotoTomas]

I currently purchase Remington valu pack 9mm JHP's for my carry load off duty and I often compete with it as well. The advantage of practicing, competeing and qualifying with the same ammo I carry is important to me.

That being said I am sure I could shoot a TSA match with my budget ball ammo but to be denied the option of using my carry JHP is a bit much. My choice for sure.

I can vouch for the pain of copper jacket material being lodged in the fleshy parts of the body. I have had it happen several times and one requireing minor surgery to remove. Even so they were the result of bad steel on the indoor range. I simply no longer shoot there. I prefer the JHP for carry and competition as well as for accuracy when I reload. The No JHP is a deal breaker for me.

[HeadHunter]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
And yes, I am shooting regulation (NEW) steel at no closer than 10 yards (thank you for your concern, glad you pointed that out).

And YES, I am saying that shooting HP's on steel is unsafe. You can quote me on that...I will second D.R. on this. We shoot all steel at the Rogers Shooting School, we keep it in good shape, and we don't allow JHP. As D.R. pointed out, it's not usually the shooter who gets fragged, but someone around him.

Since a class of 18 students will shoot about 45,000 rounds in a week, we find out pretty quickly what's statistically possible.

[shootingbuff]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
Hi Guys,

FYI: Just wanted to let you know about a new shooting sport called "TSA" which stands for the Tactical Shooting Association. We are looking for input...

Check out the TSA website at www.TacticalShootingAssociation.com. for more information.

Thanks,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

www.TacticalShootingAssociation.com

Thank you sir,

It was a pleasure to speak with you. The key players in my area are coming on board. We all agree this will be a great format to shoot in.

Holiday wishes,

sb

sb

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by HeadHunter
I will second D.R. on this. We shoot all steel at the Rogers Shooting School, we keep it in good shape, and we don't allow JHP. As D.R. pointed out, it's not usually the shooter who gets fragged, but someone around him.

Since a class of 18 students will shoot about 45,000 rounds in a week, we find out pretty quickly what's statistically possible.

What? If you're not allowing JHP ammo, and still getting fragged all the time on a good range, what's the point?

[HeadHunter]

Originally posted by Steve Koski
What? If you're not allowing JHP ammo, and still getting fragged all the time on a good range, what's the point? No, we disallow JHP to keep the shooters from getting fragged. It still happens occasionally, but not nearly as badly with FMJ as with JHP. Sorry you missed my point, I will try to state things more clearly in the future.

[Jerseycitysteve]

IMHO a JHP traveling over 1100 feet per second will definitely frag you.

I've picked more than a few pieces of jacket out of my hide. Mr. Middlebrook is spot on.

BTW I started IDPA at the Norfolk Rifle Range.

[Fireglock]

Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
IMHO a JHP traveling over 1100 feet per second will definitely frag you.

I've picked more than a few pieces of jacket out of my hide. Mr. Middlebrook is spot on.

BTW I started IDPA at the Norfolk Rifle Range.

So every JHP you've fired at steel has embedded bits of itself in you?

[Jerseycitysteve]

Originally posted by Fireglock
So every JHP you've fired at steel has embedded bits of itself in you?

Not every round but enough not to like it. The worst was 125gr .357Magnum~okie~ ouch!

Never had a problem with hardball. In fact, if I had a school of the warrior's arts, I'd follow Clint Smith's example.
http://www.thunderranchinc.com/Oammo2.htm

Like Clint said: this is the future.

[Fireglock]

Check out this thread, you may need to ban more projectiles.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=5429612#post5429612

[Jerseycitysteve]

Originally posted by Fireglock
Check out this thread, you may need to ban more projectiles.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=5429612#post5429612

I posted my father's experience with a similar injury on the thread. Glad the little girl is OK!

This will cost us all a lot of money but Clint Smith is darn right.

[Pharaoh]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
Yeah, I got proof, so does Paul Miller: ER bills and scars on shooters...

Paul and I both agree on this issue as we are the ones paying the insurance premiums and the deductibles.

And yes, I am shooting regulation (NEW) steel at no closer than 10 yards (thank you for your concern, glad you pointed that out).

And YES, I am saying that shooting HP's on steel is unsafe. You can quote me on that...

You don't see the problem very often, but I have seen it several times. It's usually not the shooter who gets fragged, but to the RSO and others off to the side.

I do not have any reason to ban HP's other than for safety issues.

Bottom Line: I WILL NOT sacrifice safety for any reason, especially when I KNOW there is a problem.

Respectfully,

D.R.



Respectfully my two cents! It is not the ammo it is target placement and type. If you study the spatter it is normaly 90 deg. Making target placement most important. I shoot Cowboy Action and GSSF for over 10 and 5 years each. 10 GSSF matches a year and two SASS matches each month. I have been hit but only a couple of times and only enouch to rais a welt. No blood. So the logic is proper target placement and good quality steel.

Just my thoughts

Pharaoh

[D.R.Middlebrook]

With all due respect, Paul Miller was World Cowboy Champion and I LIVE on a range. I have 13 plate racks in my back yard along with the complete CoF for the Steel Challenge and lot's of the World Shoot Off stages. We KNOW what the problem is. It's JHP ammo...

[Pharaoh]

I am glad to see you two are EXPERTS IN THE FEILD! I still have to say it is target placement and type.

Pharaoh

[Carlitos]

Man it is GREAT to see you back up and typing Pharaoh! Hope you have made a full recovery my GSSF brother. I agree with you 100%.

D.R. - if you insist on banning hollow points in your game & you seriously still believe that hype about only hollow points throwing fragments, well, I wish you luck and we'll just have to disagree on this one. In the mean time, CAS, USPSA, GSSF, IDPA, and a host of other sports will go ahead with our alegedly "dangerous practice" of allowing hollow points to be shot at steel. Good luck to you.

D.C. Johnson
Team Shooters Paradise GSSF I

[Pharaoh]

Carlitos thank you, I am walking with a walker down the block and back. I am still not allowed to put anymore pressure than could crush and egg. Doc's orders still!


As far as the lead splatter problem for a new shooting venue just starting out. If your going to restrict JHP there are plenty or other types of jacketed bullet the will end up banning in the near future. I just hope D.R.Middlebrook and Paul Miller do a whole lot more research about splatter before banning one type of bullet and then another and another and another. Before making a blanket judgment about what bullets to ban.

Pharaoh:) :)

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Based upon the total amount of rounds fired, Paul Miller runs the largest Pistol Match in the World. Now considering it’s ALL STEEL REACTIONARY TARGETS, tell me who has more experience on this subject?

[shootingbuff]

Well since we are adding .02 in, I might as well too.

I decided to get involved in TSA. I do not agree with the JHP rule. I do like every other aspect of TSA. I can live that. If one does not want to shoot a fun an informative match then that is their choice. I chose to and will have fun. I truely beleive that if anyone does not shoot TSA becasue of this they have issues. My .02. Nothing more and nothing else.

[Navy87Guy]

I have 10 Rules of Life. Rule 7: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over, expecting different results.

There's clearly a difference of opinion on the JHP issue. Points have been made, considered, and some rejected. It's D.R.'s game -- if he wants to ban JHPs, then he will. If you don't want to play it because of that ruling, then don't. But it's pretty clear to me that continuing to play "I know more about XXX than you" isn't going to get the rule changed. Then again, insanity can be a communicable disease....

[Fireglock]

Originally posted by Navy87Guy
I have 10 Rules of Life. Rule 7: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over, expecting different results.

There's clearly a difference of opinion on the JHP issue. Points have been made, considered, and some rejected. It's D.R.'s game -- if he wants to ban JHPs, then he will. If you don't want to play it because of that ruling, then don't. But it's pretty clear to me that continuing to play "I know more about XXX than you" isn't going to get the rule changed. Then again, insanity can be a communicable disease....

Yep D.R.'s game. You can pay to play. Didn't Einstein come up with your rule 7?

[Navy87Guy]

Originally posted by Fireglock
Didn't Einstein come up with your rule 7?

I'm not sure. I never claimed to make 'em up -- I just follow them. Rule 5 is: Hope is not a military course of action. That was Colin Powell.

[Fireglock]

Originally posted by Navy87Guy
I'm not sure. I never claimed to make 'em up -- I just follow them. Rule 5 is: Hope is not a military course of action. That was Colin Powell.

#7 was from Einstein. :)

[Pharaoh]

Based upon the total amount of rounds fired, Paul Miller runs the largest Pistol Match in the World. Now considering it’s ALL STEEL!

A very bold statement! I am by no means an expert in the shooting feild. Which in your own minds you think you are! I am sorry you think that way! There is quite alot of good data out there to proove you have not studied the problem well enough. Please look around more!

It's your game and I under stand that! Take it or leave it!

Have a great Holiday Season

Pharaoh

over and out.

[Joe D]

I sure wish I could find the high speed camera work a guy did for the NRA when they first started shooting at steel silhouettes back in the early '80s. It clearly shows that splatter does not come back at the shooter from targets that are made from hard steel. The splatter radiates 90 degrees in a somewhat flat plane from the impact area. Targets that were even mildly cratered would send jackets and lead fragments back toward the shooter. It did not matter if the bullet construction was JHP, FMJ or lead. Results were the same in both cases.
I doubt I will shoot any of the TSA matches anyway. I guess I struggle a bit with a guy that posts his own quotes on his website.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Guys, like it or not, the NO JHP RULE is engraved in Stone...

Wishing you all Happy Holidays, stay safe out there!!

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Gary G23]

It's D.R.'s game. It's his decision what ammo you can use. It's your decision if you want to play it or not. I probably won't play because 9mm won't be competitive in the TSA scoring system relative to IDPA. I can't afford to shoot $10/box ammo when IDPA lets me shoot $3.86/box ammo without any loss of points. But I'm only going to whine about it once.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Originally posted by Gary G23
It's D.R.'s game. It's his decision what ammo you can use. It's your decision if you want to play it or not. I probably won't play because 9mm won't be competitive in the TSA scoring system relative to IDPA...

Actually, we ran the numbers using some IDPA Nationals results with TSA Major/Minor Scoring. Here are the findings:

2000 IDPA Overall Match Results:
Overall Place, Total Time (Points Down)
Asterisk (*) means MAJOR LOAD

1. Ernie Landon 176.41 (26)
2. Dave Sevigny 177.17 (38)
3. D.R. Middlebrooks 177.17 (11)
4. Rob Leatham 179.92 (11) *
5. Scott Warren 182.66 (17)

Now, lets take the RAW time and refigure the scores using the new TSA scoring of .25 seconds for Major and .50 seconds for Minor Power factors:

1. Ernie Landon 176.41 (26)
2. Rob Leatham 177.17 (11) - Tie broken by Points Down
3. Dave Sevigny 177.17 (38)
4. D.R. Middlebrooks 178.96 (11)
5. Scott Warren 182.66 (17)

Only Change: Leatham (shooting Major) moved up to 2nd place.

2005 IDPA Overall Match Results:
Overall Place, Total Time (Points Down)
Asterisk (*) means MAJOR LOAD

1. Dave Sevigny 184.61 (51)
2. Daniel Horner 188.97 (28)
3. Bob Vogel 190.87 (18)
4. Rob Leatham 194.08 (25)
5. Scott Warren 199.97 (24)
6. Ernest Langdon 202.34 (51) *

Now, lets take the RAW time and refigure the scores using the new TSA scoring of .25 seconds for Major and .50 seconds for Minor Power factors:

1. Dave Sevigny 184.61 (51)
2. Daniel Horner 188.97 (28)
3. Ernest Langdon 189.59
4. Bob Vogel 190.87 (18)
5. Rob Leatham 194.08 (25)
6. Scott Warren 199.97 (24)

Only Change: Langdon (shooting Major) moved up to 3rd place.

Bottom Line: The difference in Dave Sevigny’s TSA classifier scores was only about (1) second between his Major and Minor guns. We both agree, if you shoot fast and accurately it won’t matter which caliber(Major/Minor) you use. TSA will still reward SPEED & ACCURACY equally.

D.R. Middlebrooks
www.TacticalShooting.com

[Clay1]

D. R. Middlebrook, I look forward to one day trying TSA. Thanks for all of your efforts. I find it easy for many to complain about one game or another, but to actually make the investment of time and money to offer another viable game with wonderful backing from shooting professionals like Dave Sevigney, is quite another thing.

Thank you again,

Rick Ingle

[Jerseycitysteve]

Holy Cats!!!!

I had no idea you were that D.R. Middlebrook. ;3 What was that like to outshoot "The Rob?" ;Y

I suppose you know enough about what ammo to use, scoring and such.;)

[D.R.Middlebrook]

One must take into consideration the fact that Rob Leatham was shooting a .45 Major load and I was shooting a 9MM Minor load...

And since we both tied on points down (11 pts. down out of 209) I think he should have been rewarded for shooting a MAJOR load.

If the match had been scored using the TSA Major/Minor method, it would have worked out that he would have been bumped up in the overall standings. This is the way I think it should be in TSA.

Rewarding the heavy calibers more for peripheral hits is the right thing to do (IMHO).

Respectfully,

D.R.

ww.TacticalShooting.com

[shootingbuff]

Originally posted by Gary G23
It's D.R.'s game. It's his decision what ammo you can use. It's your decision if you want to play it or not. I probably won't play because 9mm won't be competitive in the TSA scoring system relative to IDPA. I can't afford to shoot $10/box ammo when IDPA lets me shoot $3.86/box ammo without any loss of points. But I'm only going to whine about it once.

Now now.

Matt B won last yr shooting minor if mem serves. I will be shooting minor and just don't plan on missing. ;e much that is ;f

sb

[MarkP]

Originally posted by Gary G23
It's D.R.'s game. It's his decision what ammo you can use. It's your decision if you want to play it or not. I probably won't play because 9mm won't be competitive in the TSA scoring system relative to IDPA. I can't afford to shoot $10/box ammo when IDPA lets me shoot $3.86/box ammo without any loss of points. But I'm only going to whine about it once.

In the relatively few TSA matches that we have held , it's been about an even split between winners running 1911's/Major and hicaps/minor.

It isn't the gun/pf that makes the difference - it's the guy running the gun.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

FWIW: Regarding Dave Sevigny's TSA classifer scores, the difference between his MAJOR Glock 35 FINAL SCORE was about 1+ second slower than his MINOR Glock 34 FINAL score...

Up close, his scores are virtually identical between the G34 & G35. At distance, he dropped more points with the G35, but the TSA major/minor scoring rewarded the heavier caliber a bit more, bringing it up to par with the lighter 9MM load.

Dave thinks he can win with either MAJOR or MINOR under the TSA scoring system. We also both agree that the TSA system rewards SPEED & ACCURACY as equals.

:cool

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Clay1]

Nice feedback on what it takes to win in this game. It's also nice that you can come with what you already own and know that you won't be at a disadvantage whether you choose minor or major.

Rick

[murph2127]

I came across this today, and thought it would give food for thought vis a vis the hollowpoint rule and steel targets. FBI bulletin.

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/shooting-range/articles/67903/


The section on "Bullet Design" is particularly intersting, as it suggests a high speed JHP is the best bullet for shooting steel. Go figure.

Article as follows:

******************

Steel Reactive Targets: Safety and Use



From The FBI Training Bulletin

There are presently a variety of steel targets on the market allowing a wide range of firearms training techniques. However, many of these targets do not provide adequate protection from bullet splatter (the bullet fragments that are reflected when a target is hit), so accidents can occur. It is important, therefore, that the user know what factors make training on steel targets as safe and effective as possible.

When shooting steel targets, a "splatter zone" appears. This zone is the area in which the great majority of bullet fragments eventually wind up. The total amount of splatter in this zone is primarily dependent on the following four key issues: 1) Angle of deflection, 2) Target hardness, 3) Bullet design and 4) Target placement.

Angle of Deflection

The type and design of a steel target determines the angle of deflection. Testing for angle of deflection is done by shooting a steel plate target surrounded by a plywood box. After shooting numerous rounds, the path of the bullet fragments is assessed by examining the marks left on the plywood. As the bullet shatters on impact, the majority of the fragments spread out at 20-degree angles from the plate surface. This area, which forms thin triangular shapes to the left and right of the target, is referred to as the "splatter zone." It is not a safe place to be as a full 95% of all bullet fragments can end up here. The remaining area, including the shooter, is referred to as the "safety zone," and receives only a small portion of bullet fragments. Although the safety zone is not absolutely safe, with proper protection, normal training can be carried on without undue risk.

Target Hardness

The hardness, or tensile strength, of a target measures the amount of force that can be applied to the steel before deformation or damage occurs. Hardness is most commonly measured by a Brinell number ranging from 150 on the soft side, up to 700 on the hard extreme. While the average target is made of the cheaper steel with a Brinell number of 265, some targets have a Brinell number over 500 and can withstand repeated .308 rounds without deformation or damage. Intuitively, it is apparent that a harder steel target will last longer. More importantly, a harder steel target is actually safer. In repeated testing, hard targets produced very consistent splatter patterns and returned little or no bullet material back to the shooter. Softer targets deformed sooner and often resulted in extremely unpredictable splatter patterns. Specifically, many fragments were larger and traveled in virtually every direction, effectively rendering the safety zone non-existent. It is recommended, therefore, that steel targets be made of the harder steel. Initially they will be more expensive, but, based on longevity and safety, they will be more cost effective in the end.

Bullet Design

A high quality, higher power factored ammunition is essential to reduce splatter. Simply stated, to minimize the size and pattern of splatter, drive the projectile harder. Consequently, a lead bullet with a low velocity is the worst option for steel target training. For safe training, it is recommended that only higher power factored bullets be used. A desirable round to produce consistent splatter is a jacketed hollow-point with a velocity of 1225 fps. Another issue is the "correlation factor." This generally refers to how well a bullet holds together to give controlled expansion and penetration. In the case of steel target training, the best bullet is a frangible style round. The high velocity, frangible design of such bullets creates a predictable shattering effect on impact.

Target Placement

Even with the best targets and bullets, training can be dangerous if targets are placed incorrectly. Metal targets should not be placed parallel to each other with out a barrier between them. Splatter from one target could ricochet off another target (secondary splatter), and return to the shooter. Metal targets that are used in a grouping pattern should be staggered so as not to be in the 20 degree angle of deflection splatter zone of another target. Placing plywood to the sides of each target easily solves both of these problems. Because the wood is soft, it will absorb the splatter and not cause dangerous secondary splatter. The wood will, however, need to be replaced frequently to be an effective barrier. Another cause of secondary splatter can be large rocks or concrete. The best surfaces are made of sand or fine gravel. If concrete is used, it should be covered by wood or pea gravel.

Other Safety Issues

Since splatter can only be minimized and never totally eliminated, proper eye protection must be mandatory on all firing ranges. Eye protection should be OSHA tested and have side protection built in. Long sleeves and hats are optional but recommended. Instructors and observers should stand behind the shooter and obey all safety precautions as well. In short, training on steel targets can be safe if done properly. Buy your targets from a reputable manufacturer, use high velocity, frangible ammunition, place targets correctly, and take proper safety precautions.

Glossary Of Steel Making Terms

Alloying Element
Any metallic element added during the making of steel for the purpose of increasing corrosion resistance, hardness, or strength.

Alloy Steel
An iron-based mixture is considered to be an alloy steel when manganese is greater than 1.65%, silicon over 0.5%, copper above 0.6%, or other minimum quantities of alloying elements such as chromium, nickel, molybdenum, or tungsten are present. An enormous variety of distinct properties can be created for the steel by substituting these elements in the recipe.

Carbon Steel
Steel that has properties made up mostly of the element carbon and which relies on the carbon content for structure. Most of the steel produced in the world is carbon steel.

Gauge
The thickness of sheet steel. Better-quality steel has a consistent gauge to prevent weak spots or deformation.

Hardening
WHAT: Process that increases the hardness of steel, i.e., the degree to which steel will resist cutting, abrasion, penetration, bending, and stretching.
WHY: The increased endurance provided by hardening makes steel suitable for additional applications.

Heat Treatment
WHAT: Altering the properties of steel by subjecting it to a series of temperature changes.
WHY: To increase the hardness, strength, or ductility of steel so that it is suitable for additional applications.

High-Carbon Steel
Steel with more than 0.3% carbon. The more carbon that is dissolved in the iron, the less formable and the tougher the steel becomes. High-carbon steel''s hardness makes it suitable for plow blades, shovels, bedsprings, cutting edges, or other high-wear applications.

Low-Carbon Steel
Steel with less than 0.005% carbon is more ductile (malleable): It is capable of being drawn out or rolled thin for use in automotive body applications. Carbon is removed from the steel bath through vacuum degassing.

Plate
Sheet steel with a width of more than eight inches, with a thickness ranging from one quarter of an inch to more than one foot.

Article submitted by Action Target

[MarkP]

Bullet Design

A high quality, higher power factored ammunition is essential to reduce splatter. Simply stated, to minimize the size and pattern of splatter, drive the projectile harder. Consequently, a lead bullet with a low velocity is the worst option for steel target training. For safe training, it is recommended that only higher power factored bullets be used. A desirable round to produce consistent splatter is a jacketed hollow-point with a velocity of 1225 fps. Another issue is the "correlation factor." This generally refers to how well a bullet holds together to give controlled expansion and penetration. In the case of steel target training, the best bullet is a frangible style round. The high velocity, frangible design of such bullets creates a predictable shattering effect on impact.

I can see that for 9mm and maybe a light weight
(135grain) 40S&W but in 45acp?

[D.R.Middlebrook]

I agree with the FBI and Clint Smith about frangible ammo, that IS THE HEAT and it is the future, but still a bit too pricey…

I disagree with FBI about the “Rule of Thumb” the velocity for all loads. Further, when I shoot Hydra Shocks (one of my favorite self defense loads) into a 55-gallon drum of water the jackets peel right off. Now, tell me that’s going to hold together better than a FMJ on steel??

Energy transfer? FMJ’s will take steel over faster than anything else. I have extensively tested and researched it. FWIW: I was the first guy to push 90 & 100 grain bullets over 1800 FPS in the 38 Super. They soon outlawed the load in Virginia IPSC (back in the 80’s) because it was cratering the steel targets!! IF THE STEEL TARGET GETS A CRATER IN IT, YOU HAVE ENERGY TRANSFER. If it mushrooms, you have energy loss. Think about it. JHP’s mushroom rearward, FMJ’s flatten forward (jacket staying on target longer). Here’s a free shooting tip: If you guys want the edge on knockdown steel, shoot FMJ bullets. That’s a gem of info for free.

Accuracy? Yes, JHP’s are more accurate (generally speaking) but how accurate do we need to be? Common now?

Look guys, I have shot as much or more steel in my day than most of you put together. I have (9) ranges with literally tons of steel targets in my back yard and (12) years of shooting at the WSO. So, why do you think I care about the issue? Do I have a bullet agenda? I wish I did! But unfortunately I do not.

Seriously, I’m only interested in YOUR safety and the safety of my RSO’s. So, until you can prove me wrong, or until YOU start paying for the insurance and Emergency Room bills (not to mention lawsuits) the rule is not changing.

Respectfully,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Steve Koski]

Murph - *****in' article!

DR - Hang in there. We love you!

[EX CATM]

Will rule changes, BOD member be open to the membership to vote on at sometime? Or possibly club presidents etc? There seemed to be quite a bit of complaining about IDPA being a dictatorship will TSA be any different? If so why not open the JHP issue up to a vote of mebership at the time of a vote for the BOD? Also as far as JHPs and steel go why not make it a range to range thing? Most ranges are insured through the NRA, so you would not be paying the insurance would you? I could care less about the JHP issue, however these seem like 2 easy ways to make it a non isssue.
As far as the major/minor thig, why not just split them into two seperate divisions? IMHO this would make it much more appealing to a new shooter with a minor caliber pistol. Instead of them being penalized for not owning a larger caliber weapon.

:soap: Now what about power factor? You've got minor listed at 125,000 and major at 165,000. These numbers give an advantage to any one with a reloader and a chrono. Why not make you're standard minimums at least close to normal factory specs? I've had this problem with IDPA for a while. Since you are trying to improve on what IDPA has done why not improve the PF standards to close to factory standards? If this really is a tactical shooting sport why not require fully loaded ammo? Otherwise why not just allow race guns and do away with concealment and join IPSC?
Standard loades for 9mm (Winchester White Box) put it at a power factor over 136,000.
Standard loads for .40S&W (Winchester White Box)put it at over 178,000.
Standard loads for .45ACP (Winchester White Box)comes to over 192,000.
I got my numbers from winchesters web site

[MarkP]

ExCATM,

Don't forget that shorter barrels - like the G26/27 might not make that advertised PF by the manufacturer.
In TSA , the PF has to be acheived in the gun used , so a (MINOR)125 PF is reasonable , imnsho. If folks want to water their reloads down below that , they still have to shoot faster and straighter than their competition.

We have been running TSA matches (beta?) since July and there is no clear-cut dominant gun. Sometimes the minor/hicap guys do well and other times the major/locap guys prevail . Very few major/hicap players.

It's more of an issue of who is driving the gun , rather than what he is driving.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Originally posted by EX CATM
Will rule changes, BOD member be open to the membership to vote on at sometime? Or possibly club presidents etc? There seemed to be quite a bit of complaining about IDPA being a dictatorship will TSA be any different? If so why not open the JHP issue up to a vote of mebership at the time of a vote for the BOD?

No, because the vast majority of people don't have the match experience the BOA has. Many don't understand "why the rules are the way they are", nor do they grasp the deeper complexities of rules and how they can be used and abused.

So instead, we take polls (all the time) and will continue to survey the shooters, as we believe the shooter is the customer. We have our own TSA forums where members can ask questions openly. The JHP rule is saftey issue, not a political one. And quite frankly, it's really a non issue...

Now what about power factor? You've got minor listed at 125,000 and major at 165,000. These numbers give an advantage to any one with a reloader and a chrono. Why not make you're standard minimums at least close to normal factory specs? I've had this problem with IDPA for a while. Since you are trying to improve on what IDPA has done why not improve the PF standards to close to factory standards? If this really is a tactical shooting sport why not require fully loaded ammo? Otherwise why not just allow race guns and do away with concealment and join IPSC?
Standard loades for 9mm (Winchester White Box) put it at a power factor over 136,000.
Standard loads for .40S&W (Winchester White Box)put it at over 178,000.
Standard loads for .45ACP (Winchester White Box)comes to over 192,000.
I got my numbers from winchesters web site

IPSC, USPSA and IDPA have set the standards for power factors, I see no reason to deviate from it...

Also, those velocites are from test barrels. If you had a chrono you would see how it all breaks down in real guns.

As Mark has stated, the load must make power factor in YOUR gun. There is a good reason for this rule.

Thanks for asking,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook
No, because the vast majority of people don't have the match experience the BOA has. Many don't understand "why the rules are the way they are", nor do they grasp the deeper complexities of rules and how they can be used and abused.


This is a very good point which I wholeheartedly support.

IDPA and TSA actually have a fighting chance of retaining some PRACTICALNESS by disallowing the general memebership to (in effect) change the rules at their whim and fancy.

USPSA started out JUST LIKE IDPA several decades ago. The members gradually voted it to what it is today. Give IDPA or TSA members the power to (effectively) vote the rules, and these sports will be nearly indistinguishable from USPSA in 30 years.

Keep up the good work DRM.

Koski

[Glock2234]

Originally posted by Steve Koski


IDPA and TSA actually have a fighting chance of retaining some PRACTICALNESS by disallowing the general memebership to (in effect) change the rules at their whim and fancy.



Agreed. But when a sport becomes a crusade for purity over practicality, you end up with the mess IDPA created last year. It seems the vocal minority and stubbornness overcame common sense.

[EX CATM]

No, because the vast majority of people don't have the match experience the BOA has. Many don't understand "why the rules are the way they are", nor do they grasp the deeper complexities of rules and how they can be used and abused.

So what you're saying is your members aren't as smart as you? Cause that is how it comes across. This is the same logic communist use to run thier countries. Seems pretty arrogent.

.IPSC, USPSA and IDPA have set the standards for power factors, I see no reason to deviate from it...

That does not address the question of why you don't require a higher power factor, closer to factory specs. As far as barrel length goes for determining power factor follow IDPAs example as you did on most everything else. Why make someone shooting a compact have to load hotter? They are already at enough of a disadvantage. Do you really think you are the only one with a chrono? Are you gonna tell me I can't make your PF with a reduced load in a full size gun with a standard cartridge? Do you believe that with all your match experiance? Really? Or are you and your buddies on the BOA so used to shooting less than full power ammo you're not shure if you'd score so well with full loads? Are you trying to be IDA, USPA or IPSC? If so allow JHPs like they do. Or join one or the other and shoot that sport.

As far as I can see, from you rule book and your attitude, TSA has nothing new to offer. It would seem you are trying to start an organization based on what people have complained about in the new IDPA rule book. But you've missed the heart of the issue. Some didn't the idea of Bill Wilson changing the sports rules to maintain the "vision" of IDPA he held. Some are sick of being told we have to be "practical" by doing this, this and this, but we're just gonna ignore these other issues (i.e. realistic power factor, using normal concealment garments etc.). From all you have said and written, your condescending tone and the way you blatently disregard the idea of allowing the members to shape the sport you have sold me on the idea to stay the hell away from TSA.
By the way IMHO anyone who says they alone must be in controll for the good of any sport is probably the worst person for it or any leadership role.

[Glock2234]

Originally posted by EX CATM
So what you're saying is . . . . .

You make a lot of good points, but with a lot of hostility. Your inflammatory rhetoric adds nothing to the debate and diminishes your valid points. It allows your view to be dismissed as ...... less than rational.

I see TSA as an incremental improvement to IDPA. It isn't perfect, but I don't have the time or credibility to reinvent IDPA.

One of my complaints about IDPA was the power factor thing. When the new rules were issued with the same power factors, I got into reloading. I didn't want to, but I had to. It is the same sort of thing that made me put down a G-22 for a G-34. Less concealable, less effective, more competitive.

All this is about playing games.

Pick the rules you like and play it, or not. We are debating different forms of Poker. Play what you like.

Work within a system to improve it, if you have the opportunity to voice an opinion. If you don't have that opportunity, find another system.

DR has strongly held beliefs about some of these things. I don't know him, but I know his BOA. I respect their opinions, even if I don't always agree with them. No one is making money off of the rule. If it avoids an injury, it is worth it.

I have seen people cut by rounds off of steel. If he thinks JHPs are the source and wants to ban them, fine. It really isn't a competitive issue for 90 some percent of the IDPA shooters I know. If you want to carry JHP, do it. When you shoot a TSA match, leave it at home with the armor piercing, incendiary rounds and steel shot. It is all the same issue.

[Steve Koski]

Originally posted by EX CATM
So what you're saying is your members aren't as smart as you? Cause that is how it comes across. This is the same logic communist use to run thier countries. Seems pretty arrogent.

Guess what Einstein:

There are people lots smarter and better at running a shooting sport than you, or me!

If you don't like it, you're have the freedom to ignore it. This is the USA!

Koski

[D.R.Middlebrook]

FWIW: I started shooting PPC & Pins back in ’75. I shot the Second Chance National Police Combat Shoot for years (my first taste of Combat 3 Gun). I shot IPSC in the late 70’s and my Combat Pistol Team hosted and ran (2) IPSC Nationals and (1) IPSC World Shoot in Virginia. I have RO’d at the World Shoot Off’s for 12 years, and the Winchester Challenge also. So, I have good deal of experience...

Heck, I invented Virginia Count, and USPSA was conceived on the back of my pickup truck after a match one day. I was a charter member, and I saw what happened to the sport…

We went from shooting the 1983 IPSC Nationals in MANDATORY concealment (with our carry guns) to what it is today. That’s what happens when the general membership decides on everything. It’s too easy to get away from the founding principles. That and many of them really don’t understand the complexities of how and why we have certain rules.

I’m not against the membership voting on issues, that’s really what the polls are for. But the ultimate decision rests with the BOA and me. I promise you we will keep an open door, open mind policy.

Respectfully,

D.R. Midllebrooks – President
Tactical Shooting Association (TSA)
www.TacticalShooting.com

[SR_]

D.R. I have no problem with a sport where the rules are developed by the board rather than by members.

However, I will probably not participate in the sport due to the major/minor rules. I shoot 9mm. As one person said above, it is more a cost issue than anything else. Perhaps it's perception or just unwillingness on my part to think through the major/minor issue. I think I’d be at a disadvantage by shooting minor so I will not participate under the current rules.

When I say participation I mean those that pay the fee to join the national organization. Since many ranges do not require membership in the national body to participate in a club match, 9mm shooters will show up and participate at the matches. However, we will not go to the major matches and will probably not be sending their money to the national body. (I can only afford so many major matches. My money will go into IDPA events. I plan to attend 3 to 5 major matches per year.)

In my view, the major/minor issue will not affect those that primarily shoot IPSC (they already have the equipment). But it WILL reduce the participation by IDPA guys.

As background, I shoot in Oxford and the group has been discussing the TSA rules for some time. The comments in this thread about major/minor are shared by a number of folks. Some of us talked about purchasing a pistol for TSA. I’ve not seen folks actually buy a new gun.

It’s your game so it can be your rules. If the major/minor classification is important to you then by all means leave it in. Just understand what it will do with regard to membership.

I think you have a good sport. If the major/minor factor was not present, I’d switch from IDPA in a heartbeat.

That’s my .02 worth.

[Clay1]

SR, read the thread where Sevigney shot it using minor and then major again. It's conclusion is that there isn't a lot of difference between the two and I even commented on that after I read that post. It's the Indian not the arrow.

If (when) it is available in my area, I look forward to playing.

[FotoTomas]

I too disagree with the Major/Minor point of view. Even so I plan to try it out both ways. I shoot USPSA Production with my G34 and Limited 10 with my M1911A1 SA MilSpec. I do the same in IDPA with the SSP and CDP divisions. I even throw in some SSR with a S&W model 15. I like gun games and am willing to shoot them all if time and money allow. After a good sample then I will get selective. Probably just go off and play cowboy with SASS. :)

[MarkP]

The major minor issue balances the game for those using major caliber/lowcap guns vs minor/hicap platforms.
What we rarely see is a Major/HiCap gun. Don't ask me why ..a G22 or 35 would be an ideal platform and it was what I was using before I dropped to 9mm (cheaper to shoot and reload).

We have had winners use both locap/major & hicap/minor.

The Major vs. Minor is a non-issue.

Like Clay1 says , "It's the Indian not the arrow."

Rick , if you are ever in the Phoenix area during a TSA match , you get to shoot for free as my guest.

[Glock2234]

What we rarely see is a Major/HiCap gun.



Shhhhhhhhh.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Without Major/Minor, TSA would be a non-practical sport like SASS, where the guy with .44-40 or .45 long Colt gets beat by the guys using .38 wadcutter loads.;Q

It should also be noted that the TSA scoring system is NOT anything like IPSC/USPSA, where MAJOR caliber dominates. And as I said before, Dave Sevigny believes he can win with either Major or Minor in TSA. You can drop more points with major and win, or shoot cleaner with minor and win. This makes the scoring system perfect in our opinion.

Stay safe,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

“He who feeds the crocodile does so with the hope he will be eaten last.” - Winston Churchill

[SR_]

Originally posted by Clay1
SR, read the thread where Sevigney shot it using minor and then major again. It's conclusion is that there isn't a lot of difference between the two and I even commented on that after I read that post. It's the Indian not the arrow.

If (when) it is available in my area, I look forward to playing.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not. I too think it's the Indian and not the arrow. Which supports the view that the major/minor should be set aside. However the Chief says it stays. So I'll guess I'll choose to take my money to a different sport.

From D.R.'s post it sounds like the'll be cowboys there with thier .44-40 or .45 long Colts. Would have been fun to watch.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

FWIW: I asked an IPSC Grand Master why they have Major/Minor scoring in USPSA. He said he didn't know...;P

Personally, I think they could do away with Major/Minor scoring in a non combative sport like IPSC. I mean, they've taken the heads off the targets, so I have to ask, is it [major/minor] really needed at this point in time?

Without Major/Minor scoring in TSA, we would have a Minor Only sport. Not very practical nor fair to everyone involved (IMO)...

I agree with Col. Cooper on this issue; If we are to use fighting handguns, then we should reward the bigger calibers for peripheral hits.

TSA is a combative shooting sports discipline. He have a realistic humanoid target (complete with threat indicators) so we can practice shooting bad guys. I think it's fun, not politically correct, but fun. It's also good practice.

Repectfully,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Clay1]

"FWIW: I asked an IPSC Grand Master why they have Major/Minor scoring in USPSA. He said he didn't know...

Personally, I think they could do away with Major/Minor scoring in a non combative sport like IPSC. I mean, they've taken the heads off the targets, so I have to ask, is it [major/minor] really needed at this point in time?"

Mr. Middlebrook, I am not a Grand Master but I have an answer for you to consider:

"“DVC” IS THE IPSC MOTTO — It stands for “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas”
(Accuracy, Power, Speed) and symbolizes the challenges of the sport. How fast can you shoot? How accurately can you find the right mixture of speed and accuracy when using a powerful firearm?"

This was cut and paste from the USPSA rulebook. Power is the third leg of the three legged table. Without it we fall into the Airsoft, BB gun arena.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Right, I knew that, but the Grand Master didn't... ~shame~

I asked then asked him why we hold are hands/wrists at shoulder level to start. He replied, "So the RO can see if we false start". ~fnt~

NO, IT WAS TO SIMULATE SOMEONE HAVING THE DROP ON YOU! :soap:

Seems that IPSC has forgoten some things over the years...

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[SR_]

Just curious, why allow ammo that is 'downloaded' from standard factory loads?

[D.R.Middlebrook]

We thought about bumping it up, but the standards were set by IPSC 30 years ago. USPSA and IDPA also follow it...

So, it's 125,000 Power Factor for Minor and 165,000 for Major. We're not dictating caliber choice for you, however. You can get there any way you want.

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[SR_]

I understand the logic but would like to encourage you to take an updated approach.

Let all the downloaded stuff be 'minor' and require full factory loads to be 'major.' That way the new guy using white box and doesn't reload is not disadvantaged.

If you leave it as is, perhaps you could contact Lancer www.lancerammo.com or Ga Arms and see if they'd give discounts on competition ammo to your members. I know Lancer sells 'downloaded' competition ammo - don't know if Ga Arms does.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

I'm very familar with Lancer Ammo, I'm the guy who talked Mike Fochee into loading ammo for IDPA in the first place!

I worked some of the loads up for him...

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Originally posted by SR_
Let all the downloaded stuff be 'minor' and require full factory loads to be 'major.' That way the new guy using white box and doesn't reload is not disadvantaged...

You must remember that only 1/3 of the shooters in TSA are using full size guns. The other 2/3 are using Mid-Size or Compact pistols. So, velocities will be less with the shorter barrels.

White box will be fine for them, and in the heavier guns it won't be an issue. It will actually be an advantage on steel (and there will be a lot of reactionary steel in TSA).

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[D.R.Middlebrook]

I just got this from Dave Sevigny regarding the TSA Major/Minor scoring system:

“Based on the tests I’ve done, the minor/major scoring is necessary for a level playing field & the top classifier numbers are correct…I will admit that minor or major scoring aside; you have to be “on” to score well on it! However, either one will suit a competitor just fine in TSA…”

We have put a lot of thought and research into TSA. I truly believe we have the perfect scoring system that does indeed “Level the playing field” in regards to guns, calibers and loads. Further, I believe the rules are a very reasonable, no-nonsense approach to tactical shooting.

Shoot safe,

D.R. Middlebrooks – President
Tactical Shooting Association (TSA)
www.TacticalShootingAssociation.com
www.TacticalShooting.com

[DanaT]

Originally posted by D.R.Middlebrook


.....

Freedom to choose the holster you like (if you can conceal it, you can use it).

.......

It is our endeavor not to stagnate or hinder the development of practical fighting guns and gear. We want the evolution of the combat pistol to continue, as well as the evolution of shooting technique and practical street gear.

D.R.



This is something that I just don't get. In the state I live in (CO), like many western states, open carry is allowed without special permits whereas CCW requuires a permit. Technically concealed carry is boarder-line illegal (and totally illegal on public land) without a CCW whereas open carry is legal. Why is concealed encouraged so much when it is a "privelege" and open carry is a "right"?

-Dana

[MarkP]

probably because the majority of peolple who actually carry , do so concealed .

[driver8m3]

i cut and pasted that quote from your TSA FAQ.
Shrapnel has hit me and cut me. I have seen several people hurt badly by it. Some bled all over me. Some needed stitches and some were permanently scarred. Others needed surgery. NOTE: The distance from the steel was 12 yards (the accepted minimum standard is 10 yds.). I pushed Paul Miller to get rid of the Hollow Points and the problem went away…almost immediately!almost? was there really a time lag in the problem going away? if so, that would indicate that some other variable might have been responsible.

[shootingbuff]

Hey,

I do not agree with every rule/ing in any thing I play in or places I work. Nor did I when pappy set the law down.

Concealed carry becasue that is how many do it and most states have it.

No HPs on steel. Because of DRM's beliefs and it is his right.


Now if we can get off of the whys let me inform you good folks of something positive about TSA.

We have held TSA matches the last two months (one each month) and everyone of the shooters greatly enjoyed it and compare it to the other sports/games/dosciplines or what not. They the shooters like it and are coming back for more. It is great fun and is a better mouse trap in my MNSHO. Try it. Besides if you want a more acuracy intensive shooting sport, TSA is the only one that really pushes accuracy.

Again try it.

sb

[D.R.Middlebrook]

Look guys, with all due respect, as far as the NO HOLLOW POINTS rule goes, I am not hanging my ass on the line for a miniscule improvement in accuracy…;Q

For the record: I have won the American Handgunner World Shoot Off 3-Times (in both on IDPA Division and Stock Gun Division = 6 Times Total) with BALL AMMO (WINCHESTER WHITE BOX and LANCER FMJ LOADS). Further, I have shot the IDPA Nat’s 11 points down out of 209 possible, so don’t feed me this crap about THE NEED FOR JHP accuracy.

Anyone who thinks they need JHP’s to win is totally misguided. Get over it. It’s short range stuff. Hell, I shoot 100 yards PLUS with no sights on my gun in every Fist-Fire class I teach as a demo on the Science of Indexing & Point Shooting (watch for the Fist-Fire Video coming shortly).

So, I ain’t changing the rules until YOU start paying for the Insurance and Emergency room bills to boot. I am on record saying there is a problem. If you want to continue to shoot them on steel, go for it.

Sorry for the rant, but the JHP argument is a dead horse in my book, and a non-issue in TSA.

Later,

D.R. Middlebrooks

[DanaT]

Hey guys. Just to add a little. I had on of my own hollow points frag me from hitting steel and coming back. I didn't get hurt or cut, but it did come back and hit me.

I still have the part bullet (i had to pick up and look at what hit me)

-Dana

[Jerseycitysteve]

Originally posted by driver8m3
i cut and pasted that quote from your TSA FAQ.
almost? was there really a time lag in the problem going away? if so, that would indicate that some other variable might have been responsible.


From GoEnglish.com's "Idiom of the week."


"beating a dead horse"
You are beating a dead horse when you insist on talking about something that cannot be changed. Example: "I'd like to talk with you again about what happened." Reply: "Oh, come on. Let's not beat a dead horse."

Beating a dead horse is an action that has no purpose, because no matter how hard or how long you beat a dead horse, it is not going to get up and run. Example: "Let's not talk about it any more. Okay?" Reply: "You're right. We're just beating a dead horse."

To repeatedly bring up a particular topic with no chance of affecting the outcome is beating a dead horse. Example: "Dad, are you sure we can't get a new computer for the upstairs?" Reply: "Son, we talked about this and the decision was 'no'. You are beating a dead horse."

[driver8m3]

d.r.,

i'm cool with you not changing your rule (of course, i understand that you can make whatever rules you want)...i was just asking a question...which i note you didnt really answer.

[Jerseycitysteve]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Jerseycitysteve/beatDeadHorse1.jpg

[DebraF]

:goodpost:

someone finally said it, I have been thinking this forever.

Deb

[dbltaptm]

TSA= Good stuff!
Our club, Echo Valley Pistol League, Dexter, Kansas now has TSA for all of our matches as we are no longer affiliated with IDPA. The Wichita Club, I do believe, has done the same thing.
D.R. is great to work with.
Our shooters are very happy with the venue.
I encourage everyone to give it a try.
The classifier is truly an awesome test!
Terry L. McClure
Match Director
Echo Valley Pistol league

[shootingbuff]

Good to hear other clubs are jumping on board. Here we are hosting both IDPA nad TSA. I think they compare well and folks can pick the use of hi-caps vs 10 rounders (ESP/SSP), Maj / Min, they can pick a div which suit them better (I like TSAs) and for those that are slowed down IDPA here is currently better for them. We do work with all folks so they can get the most out of the match.

If a club is a one discipline club I would recommend TSA being that discipline. You can have your cake and ice cream at the same time ie you can have your pistol matches but also have a set of rules from the same parent org to have rifle, shotgun, or three gun and still be usineg duty or CCW gear.

As was stated DRM is a great guy to work with and is not so snotty he can not look / relook how rules are written / stated.

AND did I say I really enjoy the targets? It and the rules forces one to be be more accurate. It is a blast hearing someone say in IDPA that would have been a -1 NOT a -3 or IPSC that would have been an A! LoL

Get a few targets and give it a try.

sb

[dbltaptm]

D.R. has an open mind. He has been great to work with. I like it when common sense prevails!
The TSA target and classifier are a challenge! I like them both.

[D.R.Middlebrook]

We are pleased to announce that Dave Arnold is now on the BOA (Board Of Advisors)for TSA...

For those of you who don't know, Dave started the United States Practical Shooting Association (USPSA)at my home Club (Lafayette Gun Club of Virginia) back in the early 1980's.

He also started and ran the Range Officer Program and helped run a dozen or more IPSC World Championships, so he brings a lot of experience to the organization.

WELCOME ABOARD, DAVE!:cool:

www.TacticalShooting.com

[shootingbuff]

GOOD DEAL!

I am sure TSA will continue to improve and congrats to TSA for snagging such an experinced shooter.

sb