Transfer question- corporation to individual

[chakup]

OK- the company I work for may be in a place to take and sale some class III's. My question- The company could buy them at auction with no aditional paperwork correct? If so, what extra would be involved for me to in turn purchase said item from them?

question #3: AS a CYA, straw purchase; If the company takes possesion of the gun with the intention of transfering it to me, would this fall under a straw purchase?

I think I got the answers but want to try to cover my bases here.

[r2kba]

Originally posted by chakup
OK- the company I work for may be in a place to take and sale some class III's. My question- The company could buy them at auction with no aditional paperwork correct? If so, what extra would be involved for me to in turn purchase said item from them?

question #3: AS a CYA, straw purchase; If the company takes possesion of the gun with the intention of transfering it to me, would this fall under a straw purchase?

I think I got the answers but want to try to cover my bases here.

No additional paperwork?? ;g

Corporations are not exempt from NFA regulations.

[UZIFORME]

Buying NFA at auction corporation with and without sot, private auction, or police dept. auction, or gun dealer/sot going out of business auction. In state or out of state. All of the above is going to make the difference in transfer taxes of 0dollars to as much as an additional $600 in transfer taxes per item bought when resold to you. The only thing the corporation saves if they are not corporate licensed FFL dealer with SOT. is that they do not have to ask permision of the local police to take possesion of the items, they do not have photos or fingerprints, all the rest is the same buy items register transfer with the ATF wait for background checks from ATF and wait for approval from the ATF. Once they get the items it all starts again with new background checks and transfer taxes and fingerprints to you.

There is not straw purchase because you will register the item from them to you. If guns held privatly and this Corp is not FFL/SOT dealer then expect at least a half a year before you get possesion of any gun.

Now give up as much detail as possible on what you know and we can help with specifics in your case. Without details there are too many possibilities.

[chakup]

sorry my first post was done sorta quick but thanks Uzi. The company I work for is issuing a writ through the sheriff to take the items and the sheriff will coordinate the sale, so it will be a police auction. I'm trying to figure the easiest way to do it. Whatever dealer ends up handling the sale will be happy.

[UZIFORME]

Police dept. transfers buying or selling do not pay the NFA transfer tax. So if you sell or buy directly from the Police Dept. these items will transfer on form 5 free of all NFA transfer taxes.
While your corporation may broker the deal for the fee, if they actually transfer the items you are interested in to the corporation and then onto you, they will no longer be comming from the police dept. the Corp. will get the tax break and you will pay the tax to take possesion of the item you could have gotten from the PD with not tax if papered direct to yourself. Of course this must not be across state lines since you do not have a license to deal across state lines.

[chakup]

Here's one more loophole cuz I didn't know that. The PD is having us find a dealer to sotre the guns/help with the auction since they don't have room for the storage. Since they are coming from a police auction could I still swing the form 5???

and PS- thanks a ton for the help. It's great to get good helpfull replies.

[UZIFORME]

Took me a while to figure out the work sotre meant store. But anyway, if these are NFA weapons then a dealer should not be taking possesion of them for storage, they are supposed to be under control of the PD if that is who they are registered to. So the PD should come up with some type of lockable storage that they have control over, if that is at the dealer's storage facility that is fine but PD should control the only lockable access to them. Perhaps I assumed too much in thinking that you understand PD guns. Just because a PD has machineguns and other NFA items does not mean any dealer or individual may own them. Here are some classifications of firearms by the NFA.

Transferable NFA items available for citizen purchase. Only included machineguns manuf. and registered before 1986

Pre-Sample imported machineguns from 1968 to 1986 these goto dealers only.

Post Sample, the most common in PD. machineguns imported or manuf. after 1986 only legal for dealers to posses not citizens and each requires a demonstration request letter from another PD for the dealer to take possesion of, and only 1 of each model may be in dealer inventory. So if a PD had 10 MP5 A2s a dealer may only take in and sell out 1 MP5A3 at a time each requiring a PD demonstration request letter before the dealer may take the item.

Now the worst classification of machinegun or NFA weapon of all is the form 10gun. These would be guns the PD confiscated and decided to keep for dept. use. These guns would be registered on ATF form 10 and as such can only be sold direct to another PD as dealers can not even legally transfer these, only PD direct.

My suggestion is you get a dealer familiar with NFA stuff involved because the ATF is not forgiving of screwups just because one does not know the rules, also do not expect the PD to know or care about the rules, they just want the old guns gone and new guns delivered.

[John@JCDLESales]

Dave gave you very good information on how to proceed. One thing you must not overlook and that is greed. Once you present all the knowledge of how this deal must be structured the wheels of Greed will surely start to turn don't kid yourself.

In most cases involving PD weapons sales and purchases the Mayor and Council must approve said sale/purchase as set forth in the municipal charter due to the items value. This is also a safeguard so that no one person can be later accused of any wrongdoing.

Trust me the Chief is going to or already has mentioned to some LE friends details of the preposed sale. When Oppy's Dad tell Festus of the upcoming sale who passes it along to McGarret your screwed.

***Absolutely Get In Writing Form The Mayor*** a predeal agreement outlining your involvement and intentions with regard to the monetary value of the lot they have set at that time. Get it notarized Certified Mail it to yourself and don't open it. If they do try to screw you let your attorney open the letter and use it at his discretion.

I got screwed on 2 Thompsons this very way just because I thought I could trust everyone involved in the deal. Then Greed Reared It's Ugly Head.

John

[chakup]

I thought I tried to make this clear- these are not PD guns. These are guns my company is having the sheriff take from an individual to have the sheriff acution off. so these will be NFA's currently registered to 'joe' who the sheriff will be selling for him so to say.

[John@JCDLESales]

As Dave pointed out:

Now the worst classification of machinegun or NFA weapon of all is the form 10gun. These would be guns the PD confiscated and decided to keep for dept. use. These guns would be registered on ATF form 10 and as such can only be sold direct to another PD as dealers can not even legally transfer these, only PD direct.

If Joe has half a brain he'll sue the Sheriff for Invasion Of Privacy
as the weapons in question are presumably on Form 4's which are considered Tax Returns in Courts Of Law. Any further litagation will temporize the courts to seek higher rulings and you will be dead by the time a final decision is rendered. There just aren't any Free Lunches when dealing with NFA items.

[chakup]

Originally posted by John@JCDLESales
As Dave pointed out:

Now the worst classification of machinegun or NFA weapon of all is the form 10gun. These would be guns the PD confiscated and decided to keep for dept. use. These guns would be registered on ATF form 10 and as such can only be sold direct to another PD as dealers can not even legally transfer these, only PD direct.

If Joe has half a brain he'll sue the Sheriff for Invasion Of Privacy
as the weapons in question are presumably on Form 4's which are considered Tax Returns in Courts Of Law. Any further litagation will temporize the courts to seek higher rulings and you will be dead by the time a final decision is rendered. There just aren't any Free Lunches when dealing with NFA items.

The PD is never the owner of the gun, they are taking the guns as an execution enacted by the company I work for. The sheriff in theory is making Joe sale the guns to pay off a debt he has with the company I work at. The simplest way to describe it is- You go and buy a car and can't pay for it. The lien holder reposses it. The wording and laws are a little different since we aren't the "lien holder" but we are still takeing a legal action requring him to sale said object to pay the debt.

[John@JCDLESales]

asdf^3

[UZIFORME]

If you had spoken in complete thoughts and sentances the first time it would have been a lot easier. So the sheriff is just being the auctioneer on a debt. siezure asset type auction.

Ok if Joe is just an individual then no matter who buys there there will be a form 4 transfer with tax involved on each item sold, $200 each for all items except AOWs which transfer for $5 each. If your corporation buys the items and takes possesion they will pay $200 each, if you buy something from the corporation after they take possesion then you pay the $200 tax again, if you want something and are in the same state you will save $200 by transferring direct from Joe to yourself. If Joe still has possesion of the items then nothing stops Joe from shooting the **** out of them, or stipping them of all thier parts and selling the parts, after the sale. Except for some later lawsuit. All Joe has to do is call up the ATF and say the transfer of the weapon is cancled and ATF will stop the transfers and refund the $200. Nothing you can do but go back to court. Seizing assets for a debt is not going to be the best of situations especially when the debtor can not take actuall possesion of the asset for 3 months after the sale.

Good luck on the bidding. I hope your wallets big enough to buy something.

[chakup]

OK thanks UZI. yeah that's been the hard part is finding a dealer who is willing to store/keep the weapons prior to sale and also deal with the transfers. Fortunately the person will get wind of the sale at the same time the sheriff takes the item to the dealer for storage so he won't have acess to them to strip and sale.

[UZIFORME]

One point you are missing here, NFA firearms are registered to one person, or department, or a corporation or whatever, they can't be taken by a dealer for storage, they are papered to Joe, Joe is the only one who can posses them.

That being said a police department can sieze NFA weapons for what ever reason that will stand up in court, but your dealer you can not find to store them, is because they can not legally store someone elsed NFA firearms. The police dept. does not want to store them.

Not knowing the volume of weapons here, if your corporation wants to buy gun safe or enough gun safes to store Joe's NFA firearms in thier buildings they could do that on thier property, but only Joe will be allowed to know the combination to the safes, if this situation is such that Joe is not co-operative then it's not going to be fun at all.

[chakup]

UZI- I was just coming to update and you nailed it. I found a dealer who has the room to store the guns, but his ATF contact said run away from the clas III's unless Joe we'll sign off. So we're still sending the sheriff out for his toys. Worst case we're getting some AR's and handguns to sale, best case the sheriff convinces him to sign off on takeing more, but I highly highly doubt it. Learned some new stuff though.

[UZIFORME]

Would probably be easier to by the loan on his house from his bank and foreclose than it would be to take his NFA weapons.

[chakup]

yep. One nice thing with this, it makes clas III's an excellent buy from an investment standpoint. Pay none of your bills lose everything, but no one can touch em. Not a bad deal. Now if only I can convince my wife we should mortgage both our houses for $$ for more guns!!!

[glockabilly1]

Didn't Bill Flemming get put out of business on something similar to this? He sold to a civilian through a PD so he didn't have to pax the transfer tax and was charged with tax evasion and got 15 years in the Fed.

[UZIFORME]

Bill Flemming got and did 5. Federal time you serve it all.

Also someone in the PD who was also involved in the bogus transfers also got something.

But it had nothing to do with the situation above.