View Full Version : All Bull***** Aside....357 Vs 40 S&w
i am a deputy sheriff in a rural county in tennessee(population 25,000).my current carry weapon is a glock model 22 with tru-glo night sights with a total of 46 rounds on my body with another ammo can in my trunk.i currently do not have a long gun of any type although i plan on getting an ar-15 and a benelli 12 guage pretty soon.i often make traffic stops and respond to calls where my closest back-up may be up to 30 minutes away and also execute search warrants regularly on meth lab locations and drug dealers homes.i may have to shoot into a car but i dont want to accidentally kill anyone else due to overpenetration that i hear so much about with the .357 but i also hear bad things about the .40 not effectively penetrating vehicles.we currently are issued hydra-shoks as a duty round.i am seriously debating whether or not the .357 sig caliber in a glock 31 will be any better for me than my current .40 s&w in my model 22.all the data i read and stuff i hear is so mixed up and confusing i dont know what to believe.put yourself in my shoes for a moment and tell me what caliber i would be best suited to use.justify the .357 round to me over the .40.im posting this in the .40 s&w thread as well in order to be fair and receive additional comments.thank you.
TLHelmer
11-14-2005, 07:02
They are very different in velocity, but very close in effectiveness. You will have people swear that one or the other is a lighning bolt, but in reality either will serve you well.
My dept. is switching to the G-22, but the G-31 would have been fine too.
DonGlock26
11-14-2005, 09:12
Based on what I have read, I give a slight edge to the .40 in expansion. I give an edge to the .357Sig in penetration. But, I also find the .357Sig to be far more accurate and controllable. The .357Sig is a flat long distance shooting round. Modern JHP's like Golddots will penetrate barriers, yet expand in a body. I have a P229 in .40/.357, and I prefer the .357Sig for the above reasons. I haven't heard of any Agencies that are unhappy about adopting the .357Sig. In your situation, I would go with the G-31 or P226 in .357Sig. BTW-I am issued a P220 Sig at work, but I CCW a P229 .357Sig most of the time.
Cheers and Stay Safe,;c
Don
Not swearing to anything about either because too much is uncontrollable. The 357sig is faster, more powerful and offers more penetration especially with the Double Tap loads. The 40SW is fine but it is not a 357sig.
As stated people will swear about this and that but facts are facts. No one can tell you that it is or is not more effective on a human but you can look at the facts and see that it offers more speed and power and if stoked with premium ammo is considerable more powerful than the 40SW.
That is an edge when shooting a bad guy. I am in your exact situation and will first tell you to buy a 12g shotgun or AR15 before you worry about the handgun and do not be shy about pulling those weapons out. May save your life.
Have a chart.
Both are fine.
Depends what load your dept. permits.
Hydra is a go round on bodies.
Not as good for vehicle penetration.
Gold Dots do well against vehicles.
If I had a choice, it would be the G31 then the G22.
Both loaded with Gold Dots.
IMHO
so the .357 is more poweful after all... hmmmmmmm. maybe i will go with the subcompact .357 by glock instead of the G27.... hell I DONT KNOW!!!
CATATOMIC
11-14-2005, 16:26
I'm a Deputy Sheriff in a rual county also. My department allows officers to purchase their own duty weapon. Over half of my department carry the G31 in 357. I've owned several 40 cailber handguns and sold all of them. In my experience the 40 is the least accurate of the duty calibers. Long live the 357 Sig!!!!;f
TLHelmer
11-14-2005, 19:37
In that chart the .40 180 gr., the .45 230 gr. and the .357 Sig look very close.
Yes.
Most of the handgun rounds vary only a bit.
9mm through .45 cal.
This is why shotguns and ARs are needed in cruisers.
To the Deputy,
If you need to save for a gun, get a shotgun and have 00 buck and slugs on hand in your cruiser. It is what we do on our highway patrol.
TLHelmer
11-14-2005, 19:56
We can now carry our own AR's in addition to our issued shotguns.
DeadMansLife
11-14-2005, 19:57
Step one: Get a shotgun.
Step two: Talk you dept. into better ammo for your 40 or getting 357Sigs. Something bonded.
Step three: Save for an AR-15.
Rusty Phillips
11-14-2005, 22:43
kind of hard to justify spending money to go from a G22 to a G31 if you have other areas where your firearm $$$$ should be spent first
I would skip the shotgun, and go straight for the rifle.
If you cant afford to get an AR15 now, get an AK47 NOW and if you want you can then start saving up for an AR 15 later.
If you cant afford an AK47 now, get a cheap bolt action w/iron sights (rem / ruger / savage whatever you can find that is cheap) in any deer caliber of your choosing, OR get a used Marlin 30-30 levergun NOW
having ANY centerfire rifle will help you should you end up facing someone wearing body armor...... pistols, shotguns, and pistol caliber carbines arent gonna cut the mustard (I meant kevlar)
I know three Columbia SC area officers who got in on a group buy 5 years ago to get Romanian AK's to use as trunk guns
AR15's are fine, but an AK is a lot cheaper, will get the job done just as well (even better when penetrating various materials) and an AK is easier to squeeze into a cops budget.
PS - dont blow any $$ hanging crap off the sides of your AK
K.I.S.S.
getting an ar or a shotgun aint a problem......im simply looking for what handgun caliber is best suited for my use between the two i listed (357 vs 40).....i am looking for hard facts that will suggest to me that one may be better than the other for my use....thats what i need......thanks for all the replies but i still havent heard anything that tells me 357 is any better suited for me.....anyone??
As you stated, your department issues the ammo.
You are stuck with what you have.
Unless they will switch to Gold Dot.
Hydra is not made in .357 Sig.
So, we cannot compare apples to apples here.
Check the Texas Dept. Of Safety.
They tested the .357 Sig for duty.
I think you are better served getting the shotgun and AR.
Do not worry about the handgun.
IMHO
DonGlock26
11-15-2005, 12:09
Originally posted by cop1215
getting an ar or a shotgun aint a problem......im simply looking for what handgun caliber is best suited for my use between the two i listed (357 vs 40).....i am looking for hard facts that will suggest to me that one may be better than the other for my use....thats what i need......thanks for all the replies but i still havent heard anything that tells me 357 is any better suited for me.....anyone??
If you want to see tables about 357Sig vs. .40S&W, just use the search function on the caliber board. There is plenty of info here:
http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/
To recap, the .357Sig in my opinion would offer three benefits to you. Increased penetration on barriers(Autos), increased accuracy especially at longer ranges, and faster follow-up shots(less muzzle flip). This is my opinion. Both rounds are great and a case can certainly be made for both.
Tommy Vercetti
11-16-2005, 18:47
Originally posted by DonGlock26
If you want to see tables about 357Sig vs. .40S&W, just use the search function on the caliber board. There is plenty of info here:
http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/
To recap, the .357Sig in my opinion would offer three benefits to you. Increased penetration on barriers(Autos), increased accuracy especially at longer ranges, and faster follow-up shots(less muzzle flip). This is my opinion. Both rounds are great and a case can certainly be made for both.
Well said. ^6;c
PaleGreenHorse
11-16-2005, 20:20
DonGlock is right on about the 357sig. I also find it to push more and snap less making followups easier than the .40 I carry my G33 anytime I can't dress around my G29 and I feel 100% confident in it.
The carry load I use in my G33 mirrors Speers 125gr. Gold dot 357magnum load. PGH~
DonGlock26
11-16-2005, 21:55
Thanks, Gents.;c
A G-33 sounds tempting as does a P226ST. To many guns, not enough funds.;f
TLHelmer
11-17-2005, 17:01
I am with you Brother!;1 ;1 ^2
Just buy a .357 sig barrel for your 22 and have both. Save money that way. Not sure if Police Departments allow that. Good luck in whatever you decide. I have owned both and many other glocks, I now stick with and carry the G-32, works for me!
DonGlock26
11-17-2005, 19:51
Originally posted by jv56
Just buy a .357 sig barrel for your 22 and have both. Save money that way. Not sure if Police Departments allow that. Good luck in whatever you decide. I have owned both and many other glocks, I now stick with and carry the G-32, works for me!
+1
Originally posted by jv56
Just buy a .357 sig barrel for your 22 and have both. Save money that way. Not sure if Police Departments allow that. Good luck in whatever you decide. I have owned both and many other glocks, I now stick with and carry the G-32, works for me!
+2
A G32 is a great size gun to carry. Same size as the 19's the NYPD carry, but packing a lot more punch. Also, if you so choose, you can carry G31/22 mags for reloads and have a couple extra rounds. Then when off duty, the 32 makes a great CCW.
Rogueplayer
11-24-2005, 07:34
Add my compliments to the 32.
Great weapon.
matt1512
11-27-2005, 13:54
Both are cool, but i like the 40.
Originally posted by jv56
Just buy a .357 sig barrel for your 22 and have both. Save money that way. Not sure if Police Departments allow that. Good luck in whatever you decide. I have owned both and many other glocks, I now stick with and carry the G-32, works for me!
OK, dumb question, if you do the conversion barrel in a G22 to shoot .357 Sig, do you need 31 mags or do the 22 mags work for .357 rounds?
Originally posted by tommch
OK, dumb question, if you do the conversion barrel in a G22 to shoot .357 Sig, do you need 31 mags or do the 22 mags work for .357 rounds?
No, the mags work either way. You will be fine with the G22 mags.
thejackbull45
11-29-2005, 17:55
Ive read a couple of reports here of the 357 on cows and dogs. It did what the 40 couldnt.
Jello shots are fine but its one demensional.
Hey Sherrif, don't feel bad. I've been trying to find a reason to get a 357 barrel for my P239 for about a year. I've done all the research, listned to all the arguments, and even tried to watch the LE agencies to figure out which caliber is better. My understanding is the Texas DPS chose the 357 to emulate the great results they once had with the 357 magnum. Although the DPS won't publish any public information I have heard they like the 357 Sig because almost every incident they have had with shootings has an automobile involved, and they really like the penetration qualities. Also they like the stopping element of the 357 as well. With that said, other LE agencies have chosen the 40 as you know and are very happy. If I were LE I would call some of the agencies who have made the same decission and see if they will share their results with you. You certainly can not make a decission by listing to those of us on a forum who have never shot anything beyond a target with our chosen calibers. If you figure this one out, please let us know. Good Luck
churchman2003c
12-05-2005, 10:22
One more thing to like about the 357 Sig round is its absolutely reliable feeding in my 229.
I carry my G32 everyday....
Same size as the 19, and will definitely rock a BG's world....
Shot a coyote with it at ~ 150' (weaver stance) and I am definitely not an expert shot, so it's very accurate as well...
Also, gorgeous muzzle blast with Corbon loads if you're into that sort of thing at the range....
thejackbull45
12-09-2005, 07:00
Originally posted by Dimmak
I carry my G32 everyday....
Same size as the 19, and will definitely rock a BG's world....
Shot a coyote with it at ~ 150' (weaver stance) and I am definitely not a expert shot, so it's very accurate as well...
Also, gorgeous muzzle blast with Corbon loads if you're into that sort of thing at the range....
What happened to the coyote? Reports Ive read of the 357 on cows and dogs has been amazing.
One leo posted that the 40 wont do a good job on killing a cow, the 357 just explodes!
Originally posted by DonGlock26
Thanks, Gents.;c
A G-33 sounds tempting as does a P226ST. To many guns, not enough funds.;f
I have a P220ST, it is a magnificent piece of workmanship, soft-shooting and far more accurate than I.:cool:
Originally posted by thejackbull45
What happened to the coyote? Reports Ive read of the 357 on cows and dogs has been amazing.
One leo posted that the 40 wont do a good job on killing a cow, the 357 just explodes!
He dropped without a whimper.....
thejackbull45
12-09-2005, 08:39
Originally posted by Dimmak
He dropped without a whimper.....
Im not a hunter so I should have asked, are coyotes hard to put down? Would you have tried the same shot with a 40 or a 9?
I'd get an AK in 223,that way your ammo is the same as the AR guys,but at a lower cost and higher reliability under adverse conditions...ARs are generally more accurate,but you don't need 1/4 moa in a combat scenario...
Originally posted by Kirkcdl
I'd get an AK in 223,that way your ammo is the same as the AR guys,but at a lower cost and higher reliability under adverse conditions...ARs are generally more accurate,but you don't need 1/4 moa in a combat scenario...
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Originally posted by thejackbull45
Im not a hunter so I should have asked, are coyotes hard to put down? Would you have tried the same shot with a 40 or a 9?
I would have tried the shot with my P226 (9) or my P220 (45) as I shoot both of those as well as the G32, but not with any other of my HG...
Coyotes are not very big and I have never seen one shake off a shot although most of the time it's with a .223...
The hardest part about shooting coyotes in my experience is they hear, see and smell well, so you need a bit of luck in that respect...
You can't really go wrong with either. I have a 357sig barrel for my G22 and it works perfectly. You don't even need 357 mags.
Someone said the 357sig is more powerful than the .40. I don't know why people believe this. You can't compare a 125gr bullet to a 180gr bullet. The 135gr 40 loads have VERY close to 357sig 125gr velocity, I bet if they were the same weight they'd be just as fast. If you want to compare Doubletap 357sig ammo to the .40, at least compare it to Doubletap .40 ammo.
DT 125gr 357sig- 1450fps-583 ft-lbs 4" barrel
DT 135gr .40 - 1375fps-567 ft-lbs 4" barrel
DT 147gr 357sig- 1250fps-510ft-lbs 4" barrel
DT 155gr .40 - 1275fps-560ft-lbs 4" barrel
The .40 pushes 155gr faster than the "more powerful" 357 sigs LIGHTER 147gr load...interesting. It also can push up to 200 grains, and at a not to shabby 1050fps/490 ft-lbs from 4" barrel. I think the .40 hangs with the 357sig very well with light bullets and outperforms it with anything over 125 grains. If anything I think it's a touch more powerful overall, or at least more versatile, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I like both rounds, I don't know if it's the loud report or the fast it look like a rifle roud but something about the 357sig makes people assume it's something more than it is. I believe it does have better hard barrier penitration because it's smaller and it does have a flatter trajectory, about 2-3" at 100 yards which is meaningless with a handgun IMO.
Doh!!! I know I'm going to get flamed for this one, I just had to throw out a different opinion...:) :) :)
Originally posted by Scoob
You can't really go wrong with either. I have a 357sig barrel for my G22 and it works perfectly. You don't even need 357 mags.
Someone said the 357sig is more powerful than the .40. I don't know why people believe this. You can't compare a 125gr bullet to a 180gr bullet. The 135gr 40 loads have VERY close to 357sig 125gr velocity, I bet if they were the same weight they'd be just as fast. If you want to compare Doubletap 357sig ammo to the .40, at least compare it to Doubletap .40 ammo.
DT 125gr 357sig- 1450fps-583 ft-lbs 4" barrel
DT 135gr .40 - 1375fps-567 ft-lbs 4" barrel
DT 147gr 357sig- 1250fps-510ft-lbs 4" barrel
DT 155gr .40 - 1275fps-560ft-lbs 4" barrel
The .40 pushes 155gr faster than the "more powerful" 357 sigs LIGHTER 147gr load...interesting. It also can push up to 200 grains, and at a not to shabby 1050fps/490 ft-lbs from 4" barrel. I think the .40 hangs with the 357sig very well with light bullets and outperforms it with anything over 125 grains. If anything I think it's a touch more powerful overall, or at least more versatile, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I like both rounds, I don't know if it's the loud report or the fast it look like a rifle roud but something about the 357sig makes people assume it's something more than it is. I believe it does have better hard barrier penitration because it's smaller and it does have a flatter trajectory, about 2-3" at 100 yards which is meaningless with a handgun IMO.
Doh!!! I know I'm going to get flamed for this one, I just had to throw out a different opinion...:) :) :)
No but if you compare factory loadings they are really not in the same ball park. The 40SW has never seen the extent of power until the bullet reached DT's level. The 40SW loads by Mike are closer to what is offered by the big factory loadings in a 10mm.
Mike does a great job on his ammo but the 357sig is still a little more on the power and speed and since there is not any viable proof that can be presented that it does not make it any better or worse then I will stick with physics and say the numbers do not lie. I am not trying to take anything away from the 40SW that DT offers but 95% of the factory loadings are left lacking IMO.
Very good point about his loadings though. Mike and I talked about this very thing on the phone today and I told him one statement that I am sure he is aware of but I wanted him to hear it anyway, he makes the TOP OF THE LINE in every caliber he loads.
I am not aware of any load offered in the country that can match his performance. FWIW, the 125gr loading of his 357sig round from a 4.5" barrel for me and about 4 other people I have seen run about 1550-75 or so and that is also close to 700ft/lbs of smacking. Love his stuff.
For the record I am getting addicted to speed, power and weight and between the 357sigs and the Glock 20 my wife is getting me for Christmas I am covered in all respects!
Spcwes- We can just agree to disagree on the power thing, it's really all in how you look at it ;).
I do agree with you about Doubletap ammo being high quality stuff. All the .40 loads and the 125gr 357sig load have been very accurate and FUN to shoot.
You should have a merry Christmas with the G20. That IS a step up in horsepower for sure :cool:
Take care:)
Quit beating around the bush and get a G20.
EDIT!:
D'oh! Missed the last line of your last post where you said you're getting one (a G20). No need bothering with the underling guns after you get that monster.
Originally posted by FATSEXY
No need bothering with the underling guns after you get that monster.
Unless you're small and want to conceal it...lol Then you have as much as luck as concealing a baseball bat ;a
Originally posted by Tang419
Unless you're small and want to conceal it...lol Then you have as much as luck as concealing a baseball bat ;a
Most that are serious about concealing a weapon adjust their wardrobe to fit their needs and this would fall along with that. I was not always as thick as I am now but have never had a problem concealing the Glock 21 I carried for years and I know the Glock 20 will work about the same. I was 6' and 170lbs when I was smaller now I am up to about 245 and climbing. Trying to get bigger as we speak. Just get your pants about an inch or two to big and wear shirts that do not require to be tucked and it is just fine.
I'm 6'0 and 145 so its out of the question for me. The G30 was pushing it. The 32 seems much easier to hide for me.
Originally posted by Tang419
I'm 6'0 and 145 so its out of the question for me. The G30 was pushing it. The 32 seems much easier to hide for me.
Without a doubt it will be easier to hide but even with your frame you can conceal a Glock 21/20, you just have to dress for it. One of the classes that I have helped teach to LEO and civilians was how to conceal weapons and skinny people do not even pose a problem as long as they will slightly alter their dressing habits.
The ones that are IMO the most difficult to help are women that have large hips that want to carry on their person rather than in a purse. That is a hard one because a man telling a woman that she needs to wear this or that generally does not work out well not to mention it is more difficult to find clothing that is created around their body types that they will wear in general.
Normally the high ride holsters that have the belt loops are low are the only option for them and again, they then have to alter their dressing habits.
Edited to add: FWIW I would choose a Glock 32 over a Glock 20/21 any day as well. Great weapon and superb caliber!
I use a Uncle Mike's Kydex IWB holster, set as low in the pants as it will go. I was using a Safariland Soft IWB holster. Wore between 3:30 and 4:00.
Originally posted by Tang419
I use a Uncle Mike's Kydex IWB holster, set as low in the pants as it will go. I was using a Safariland Soft IWB holster. Wore between 3:30 and 4:00.
Right now I have a Glock 23 in a G-Code Hard kydex at my 4:00 and have zero problems. I can wear loose tees and it is completely hidden with no printing.
I prefer my kydex over the soft one, just for the extra trigger protection. The soft is a little more comfy tho.
Mr. Ajax
12-18-2005, 15:55
this is another rehashed 9mm vs .45 style debate.
VA state troopers are issued .357sig as their needs are more likely to involve firing into vehicles, but most localities carry .40s&w or .45acp as they want the additional stopping power.
.357sig will give your increased penetration at the loss of stopping power. the .40S&w comes in 180g loads, but cant go through layers of cover like the .357sig will.
what tool suits your needs?
(or if you're a manly man you could get a 10mm auto and have the best of both)
Tommy Vercetti
12-18-2005, 18:34
Originally posted by Mr. Ajax
this is another rehashed 9mm vs .45 style debate.
VA state troopers are issued .357sig as their needs are more likely to involve firing into vehicles, but most localities carry .40s&w or .45acp as they want the additional stopping power.
.357sig will give your increased penetration at the loss of stopping power. the .40S&w comes in 180g loads, but cant go through layers of cover like the .357sig will.
what tool suits your needs?
(or if you're a manly man you could get a 10mm auto and have the best of both)
Don't get me wrong I'd love it if my hands were big enough to carry the 20. I think the 10mm loaded properly gives everyone something to love in terms of ballistics. I just recently located and got my hands on the gun I've wanted since I was 10yrs. old. The one and only Dornaus & Dixon Bren Ten. Only problem is now I have to track down an Original Jackass Rig.:) ;c
thejackbull45
12-18-2005, 19:42
Originally posted by Mr. Ajax
.357sig will give your increased penetration at the loss of stopping power. the .40S&w comes in 180g loads, but cant go through layers of cover like the .357sig will.
Any source for this? The 357 Mag 125gr is the best stopper and the SIG dupilcates that.
Originally posted by thejackbull45
Any source for this? The 357 Mag 125gr is the best stopper and the SIG dupilcates that.
+1 The 125gr .357 Mag is #1 for one shot stops.
Originally posted by Mr. Ajax
this is another rehashed 9mm vs .45 style debate.
VA state troopers are issued .357sig as their needs are more likely to involve firing into vehicles, but most localities carry .40s&w or .45acp as they want the additional stopping power.
.357sig will give your increased penetration at the loss of stopping power. the .40S&w comes in 180g loads, but cant go through layers of cover like the .357sig will.
what tool suits your needs?
(or if you're a manly man you could get a 10mm auto and have the best of both)
Actually that is absolutely not true but thanks for your info. Being in LE the 40SW is not looked at for its additional stopping power at all! They are mostly looked at as a bandwagon caliber and that is about it. I won’t take a thing away from it though as long as you use premium ammo. Admins make decisions based on what people tell them vs. what they try and find out for themselves and since everyone is doing they feel they should to. That is about the sum of it.
Most LE in general need to be using a weapon that gives them the most power, penetration and shooting ability they can because not just with the troopers but with most LE the majority of encounters we have will be around vehicles which require penetration through intermediate barriers like windshields and car doors. I think with the right ammo the 357sig will excel past any 9mm, 40sw and 45acp on the market and that will come in handy.
Stopping power is a relative term but in a nutshell it means hitting the brain or spine and destroying them to the point that the person involved is stopped. Not a grand daddy tell of bullets ripping bad guys off there feet and knocking them into the air!
The only thing that a 40SW can do vs. a 357sig is carry a little more weight to the target. The 125gr will penetrate as deep, get there about 600fps faster, and cause more of an impact and TSC, even through some of the intermediate barriers we have talked about. I know this from my testing and the testing of others, what is your source?
SDGlock23
12-19-2005, 11:10
600 fps faster?? Me thinks thats somewhat exaggerated ;)
Originally posted by SDGlock23
600 fps faster?? Me thinks thats somewhat exaggerated ;)
Haven't you heard? It does like 1700fps now! Next week it will be even more, LOL:)
From the Federal Cartridge Company official web-site boys!
One of the most used rounds in Law Enforcement!
180gr Hydra-Shok
990fps
392ft/lbs energy
Double Tap
125gr Gold Dot HP
1525fps
600+ft/lbs
My testing with this round actually put it over 1550fps with every round from 2 separate boxes out of a 4.5" barreled Glock 31. I am sorry, I was off about 40fps. I know I exaggerate way too much!;Q Oh wait, no I didn't I said about in that statement. Wow, thought I was exaggerating again!
Haven't you heard? It does like 1700fps now! Next week it will be even more, LOL
You must be referring the new 115gr loading huh? Yea it is a smoker! You would get 1700fps from a Glock 35 with a drop in barrel replacement, I would say pretty easy.
Any other snide comments you guys have?
10mmILLIman
01-07-2006, 14:02
Originally posted by DonGlock26
If you want to see tables about 357Sig vs. .40S&W, just use the search function on the caliber board. There is plenty of info here:
http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/
To recap, the .357Sig in my opinion would offer three benefits to you. Increased penetration on barriers(Autos), increased accuracy especially at longer ranges, and faster follow-up shots(less muzzle flip). This is my opinion. Both rounds are great and a case can certainly be made for both.
this is some great info!! ^6
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