How sloppy is too sloppy?

[Another19]

I have a friend who is a custom pistolsmith, and he builds beautiful 1911s. I know, everyone knows a guy that is the best.

Anyway, he is somewhat of a 1911 snob, as you might imagine. He will not tolerate what he calls "loose breech". I haven't heard this term from anyone but him, so I don't know if it is a common term. What he means is that, with the hammer cocked, safety off, you can hold the barrel in place and retract the slide a little without the barrel moving. In other words, when you are shooting, the slide will begin to move, then in his words the locking lugs on the barrel will slam into the locking lugs on the barrel, and the barrel will then move rearward with the slide. Supposedly this will cause the lugs on the slide or barrel to wear prematurely, greatly decreasing the useful life of the pistol.

So, my question is, how much truth is there to this? His litmus test is a small piece of plain white typing paper inserted between the breech face and the rear of the barrel hood, then easing the slide into lockup. Ideally, it won't go into battery, but if it does and the paper is jammed in there and can't be easily pulled out it is ok.

Sorry for the long post, but I'd like to get a 1911 without paying for a custom job and don't want to buy one that is too sloppy to last. I'm tempted to get a SA because of their warranty, but I don't want to need that warranty.

Opinions please?

[maxmanta]

I just tried the test you described and my Wilson passed with flying colors. The gun did not go wholly into battery with the paper in place.

[prezzz]

A gunsmith I ain't, but the mechanical logic seems 100% correct.

[Another19]

The thing that bothers me is that almost every non-custom 1911 would go into battery with just about a phone book between the breech face and the barrel hood. Well, that's an exaggeration of course...

[ILikeFtLbs]

I think the pistol would still be fairly accurate even with that problem, and assuming you have a good recoil srping in there, you shouldn't see any extra wear. As you said, the barrel is not moving out of position any earlier. I would look at your test as showing a symptom rather than a problem of looseness.

[Another19]

Well, his argument is that the slide and barrel lugs are getting a "running start" and whacking into each other rather than moving as one from the get go. Still don't know if this would greatly affect durability, but I keep thinking that there are a whole lot of 1911s out there that don't have hand fitted barrels.

Anyone have a basic stock 1911 with "loose breech" that has a bunch of rounds through it? If so, how do the barrel and slide lugs look?

[prezzz]

I think his theory is sound, but it's probably not something to be too concerned about.

The wear will indeed be more if there is a significant impact rather than an "all at once transition" into movement, but the rounds that would have to be shot through the gun to require attention is probably way more than 95% will ever shoot as recreational shooters if it's a quality 1911.

Sounds like he's a perfectionist and builds 1911's that are way beyond what most of us have, or possibly even desire to own. If your a perfectionist with your guns and desire a handbuilt Bently vs. F150, then he's your man. If not, then I wouldn't pay it any attention and get whatever you want and can purchase. The SA is a very good choice and will serve you well.

A tight gun doesn't always mean a better (or more accurate) gun. I assure you it won't tolerate dirt either. There are a whole set of additional problems that are caused by a lack of looseness as well. This isn't the same issue, but I have seen 1911's so loose, that you almost have to go down range to pick up the slide after every shot, yet at 25 yards, the target looked like someone threw a golf through the center of it.

[Another19]

Yeah, I'll probably just get a SA U.S. model when I recover from my most recent purchase. I may not like the arched mainspring housing and replace it with a flat one. Anyone know what other parts I'd have to replace, considering SA now has the locking mechanism in the mainspring housing? I'd probably replace it with a flat checkered rather than one of SA's flat ones, and am not sure if the guts would be compatible.

[aglocker1911]

The parts are not the same, Another19. Unless you are using another ILS housing, you will need to replace all of the internals, ands of course add a retainer pin. Easy swap out and it usually helps the trigger pull too.
BTW, I agree that the theory of a "loose breech" is correct, but I doubt it would really make much real differance in everyday use.

[freepatriot]

I have seen it as the "daylight test"

disassemble the pistol, put the barrel in the slide and interlock the lugs, then look up from the bottom at the barrel hood and try to see daylight.

S ;c

[Another19]

Originally posted by aglocker1911
The parts are not the same, Another19. Unless you are using another ILS housing, you will need to replace all of the internals, ands of course add a retainer pin. Easy swap out and it usually helps the trigger pull too.
BTW, I agree that the theory of a "loose breech" is correct, but I doubt it would really make much real differance in everyday use.

So if one wanted to replace the SA mainspring housing with a flat checkered one from some manufacturer or another, exactly what other parts would need to be replaced?

[Another19]

Originally posted by scottauld
I have seen it as the "daylight test"

disassemble the pistol, put the barrel in the slide and interlock the lugs, then look up from the bottom at the barrel hood and try to see daylight.

S ;c

That would be a tough test to do on a new gun in a gun shop. I am lucky enough that there is a local shop owner that lets me take 'em apart before I buy, but it is not something he allows everyone to do. But, I've been buying guns from him for about 15 years...

[auto45]

The chances of getting a "gunsmith" fit bbl, by luck anyway, on a production gun are slim to none. So, I wouldn't bother with that test IMO.

In battery, I would push down on the bbl hood to see if it moves and see if the bushing can be moved within the slide...so to speak.
But, again, that's beyond the requirements of a basic 1911's.

If you want the best accuracy and fit, someone needs to fit a "match" bbl properly...IMHO.

[NoGo]

I remember tinkering with GI .45s that were incredibly loose but still functioned well. We used to pull handfulls of parts & barrels from coffee cans and test fit until tighter to improve function. Sometime it would help, sometimes it created a jammed up mess, but the loose ones almost always shot reliably. Accuracy sucked, but 4"-6" at 25yd is plenty good for a running torso shot.

I think the "loose = reliable" school of thought begain with Military guys.