Earl Argues Fraud Or Not The P99 From S&W

[GLD1980]

;P FELLOW P99 OWNERS, I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD PUT SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THIS....WELL YESTERDAY I CONTACTED THE ALWAYS WILLING TO CHAT AND DISCREDIT SMITH&WESSON MR EARL OF THE ALL GERMAN IMPORTER OF ORIGINAL WALTHERS AND HIGH PRICES "EARLS REPAIR" . I TRIED TO EXPLAIN HOW THE PROOF MARKINGS ON MY NEW 05 P99 QA 40 S&W LEAD ME TO BELIEVE THE GUN WAS ALL GERMAN EVEN THOUGH IT WAS IMPORTED BY SMITH FROM SPRINGFIELD AND I SH-T YOU NOT HE KEPT ME ON THE PHONE FOR ABOUT A GOOD 25 MINUTES RANTING ON ABOUT HOW SMITH LASER ETCHES ON ANYTHING THEY CAN FOR SALES , HOW THE BARREL IS NOT TENNIFER TREATED BECASE TENNIFER IS ILLEGAL IN THE STATES ALSO THAT SMITH USES A STAINLESS BARREL THAT IS LOW MAGNETIC TO WHERE AFTER THEY TREAT IT IS IMMPOSSIBLE TO TELL BUT POOR QUALITY!!!!!!!WE NEED TO HAS A GROUP COLLECTIVELY FIND OUT WHATS UP...IF SO SMITH SHOULD NOT MISLEAD US, BUT IF NOT TRUE EARL SHOULD NOT TRY SO HARD TO SELL TO WHERE HE MUST DIS-CREDIT HIS COMP...YOU HAVE THE FACTS, DO YOUR RESEARCH AND LETS UNCOVER THE TRUTH...THEY BOTH ARE PLEASING TO DEAL WITH BUT 1 OF THEM IS IN THE WRONG!!! HERE ARE INFO PAGES: EARLS= www.carlwalther.com page= http:// www.praxagora.com/lunde/WaltherP99FAQ/
and smith @www.waltheramerica.com

[Nowhere Man]

Here's the poop as I understand it.

The Walther P99 with the Eagle over the N markings on the frame, barrel and slide are made in Germany. S&W imports them and puts their name on the slide.

S&W ALSO sells the SW99. This gun is similar to the Walther P99. The SW99 uses a frame supplied by Walther (mfg in Germany) and combines it with a slide and barrel maqnufactured by S&W here in the States. The barrel and the slide of the SW99 are stainless and the coated with melonite(sp?) which is "similar" to tennifer.

Now, I've never met, nor have I ever talked to Earl from Earl's Repair so, please don't accuse of such but, either he, or you probably mis-understood each other when you mentioned P99 and S&W in the same sentence. Earl has always been known for being high priced but never for being less than ethical.

Dave

P.S. The use of all capital letters is the same as SHOUTING. Why are you shouting?:)

[GLD1980]

Ethics are not the discussion, niether is mis-understanding. So what we now have is a disagreement! What im asking you to do is your homework as I did and not reply as if I dont know about the SW99 using German frames and american barrels and slides. Im not accussing Earl of lying, the only negative I said of him is that he
talks alot! You need to call him so you can hear what he feels Smith is doing to the German Walther name.

oh he also said melonite is a piece of crap compared to tennifer treated barrels.

[blueiron]

Every importer of firearms must stamp their business name and location on all firearms to be sold in the U.S.

Earl's and Smith both do it. The German proof marks prove that the barrel and firearm have passed German Federal acceptance testing. The Walther pistols that are sold by Earl's and Smith and Wesson are the same. Only the importer marks are different.

He might not care for the "inter-marriage" of parts, but SiG is doing it now and it makes for a more affordable pistol for many buyers.

[Nowhere Man]

Originally posted by GLD1980
Ethics are not the discussion, niether is mis-understanding. So what we now have is a disagreement! What im asking you to do is your homework as I did and not reply as if I dont know about the SW99 using German frames and american barrels and slides. Im not accussing Earl of lying, the only negative I said of him is that he
talks alot! You need to call him so you can hear what he feels Smith is doing to the German Walther name.

oh he also said melonite is a piece of crap compared to tennifer treated barrels.


A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced altitude and
spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted, "Excuse me, can you help me?
I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, But I don't know where I am."

>>>The woman below replied, "You're in a hot air balloon hovering
>>>approximately 30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 41degrees
>>>north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude."

>>>"You must be in Information Technology," said the balloonist.
>>>"I am," replied the woman, "How did you know?"

>>>"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is, technically
>>>correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information, and the fact
>>>is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. If
>>>anything, you've delayed my trip."

>>>The woman below responded, "You must be in Management."
>>>"I am," replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

>>>"Well," said the woman, "you don't know where you are or where you're
>>>going. You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot
>>>air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect
>>>people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly
>>>the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my
>>>fault."

[BreakerDave]

It sounds like there is some confusion here... As has been pointed out, the reason that Smith & Wesson is now etched onto Walther slides is because they are the gun's importer. Before S&W, you could find P99's with Walther USA laser etchings, and before that with Earl's Repair Service laser etchings and Interarms laser etchings. None of that has anything to do with who has manufactured the gun. That only pertains to the identity of the importer.

That said, there was a small batch of P99's in .40 S&W where the slide and barrel were made by S&W. Again as has been pointed out, if it doesn't have the German eagle over the N proofmark, then you know some of the gun may not have been made in Germany.

In regards to the SW99, it is my understanding that it does use a German made frame. Its slide and barrel are made from stainless steel by S&W. I'm not a metalurgist but I have been told that due to the difference in formulas between stainless steel and carbon steel, that the tenifer treatment does not work with stainless steel and melonite is the appropriate substitute when working with stainless steel.

I do not see how any of this is a problem for anyone. I have talked with Earl before and I have not had this kind of negative experience. I am aware of people who have issues with him so maybe it's just been that I have been lucky so far. However, I'd hold my horses before I'd jump to the conclusion in regards to allegations of fraud. A lot of opinions about firearms are just that, opinions. They're one person's take on it and that's it. For a long time people complained about using stainless steel in firearms due to galling problems. Now you hardly ever hear of that complaint because the companies figured out appropriate formulas for stainless steel to be used in firearms. If Earl doesn't like S&W's version of the P99 (for whatever reason), that's fine. He's entitled to his opinion.

[GLD1980]

check it out guys, I understand that the importer will laser etch his logo on the gun, I recieved my Walther USA catolog today and it mentioned nothing similiar to Earls accusations. Once again though, what Earl said is that S&W has been etching the eagle over n proofmarks that should only be limited to all german P99's! Hopefully we all agree. Now if Earl is right and he very well could be, all im saying is that we should investigate and back him up. Has I said in my first thread, someone is wrong, they are both reputable and great to do buisiness with, and has a proud Walther owner, I want the truth. So please, before anyone else decides to pop-off without doing any research, [ie.calling Earl,then calling S&W.] dis-regard this thread!!!

Sorry if this sounds defensive, and yes I understand all of your points, there much appreciated! I just want to know whether Earl is right or not. Its hard to question a man with his type of Walther expertise! If S&W is ething german proofmarks, then it does need to stop!

[Rockets]

I have a recent P99 40 and P99c 9mm from CDNN. Both have the Eagles on the slide and barrel. On the P99 Faq this is said to be a total German gun with S&W being the importer. The 40 is laser etched.

I believe what clinches this as fact is BOTH guns have the German test target in there, with a bunch of words in German that I can't understand. What I can understand on both test targets is that the "Kaliber" as they say on them and the serial number on the slide, frame and barrel all match the ones on the test targets. You can't shoot a test target with a frame.

Now I find it very hard to believe that S&W makes the slide and barrel, put them on a Walther frame that has been shipped here, then has them shipped back to Germany for test firing, then has Walther ship the gun back to the US for sale. (Of course there are variations here, like S&W just send the slide and barrel to Germany, Walther adds the frame, tests fires it and ships it back to the US) But you get the idea, that's allot of back and forth and added cost for just a test target most people don’t care about anyway. I have an Earl Gun, I have an early Interarms German P99 and now I have the two new ones from CDNN. None of them just say Walther, all have importer stampings, Interarms, Earl and S&W. Usually the most obvious answer is the right one. Guns with German proof markings on the slide and barrel that come with test targets in German were assembled and shot at German test targets in Germany. (Try and say that fast three times)

Rockets Out....

[10mm Steelhead]

I've done business with Earl in the past. I have 2 P99's with his import stamp on them, and have bought books and parts from him. In the past he was very pleasant to deal with, then he got bitter towards Walther and S&W. In talking with him, he feels he was wronged by Walther and S&W, because basically S&W made a back room deal with Walther to become Walther's sole importer of P99's. Earl now has to obtain his P99's from other sources, instead of directly from Walther Germany. He used to be able to get them direct, back in the old days when Interarms was the other importer. This is what he told me, so if it's not true, then he's the one not telling the truth.

I have not bought anything from him for probably 3 years now. I visit his web site every now and then, but feel he is way over priced and I can usually find what I want somewhere else.

For what its worth, there were around 4000 S&W made P99's. All in .40 caliber. This happened a couple of years ago and each P99 does not have the proof marks on them. If you put them side by side with a German built gun, you'd be able to tell which was S&W made, even without the proof marks. This was done only with the .40 caliber P99's because Germany was swamped trying to fill contract orders. All 9mm P99's are German made!!!

I've got a S&W import marked P99, that was built in Germany and you can tell that it was built in Germany. And like the previous poster elluded to, the test target was filled out by a German.

[GLD1980]

DISSAPOINTING, OVER 180 VIEWERS AND ONLY 8 PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY OWN A SET BETWEEN THEIR LEGS!
Well sh-t, you might as well come over here and sip tea downstairs with my wife and look at how pretty the snow outside is, "yeah its cold." At least the weather can be your exuse for not finding them!

[GLD1980]

Oh yeah,
I would think you guys would be really upset if someone was saying your a fraud. Im being serious and apparentely also are some of you that have privately contacted me on this issue. Please, if not for the sake of our P99's then for whats right, contact Earl,S&W, read the P99 faq page and cross reference your findings with Earl,S&W,and the rest of us here who give a F-ck, so we can contact Umarex with our findings if someone is depreciating the brand name!
Thank You,GLD1980 -OUT-

[thejackbull45]

Somebody's lying here. Either Earls accusations are true or not. I dont see any room for opinion, he spoke fact.

[10mm Steelhead]

I've been collecting Walthers for a while now and I've come to find out that Umarex doesn't care what we American's think. They are a European company and are concerned with their European customers. They could care less about the U.S. This has been Walther's attitude from the begining, even before Umarex. They have plenty of contracts with European countries and frankly I don't think they have the capacity to keep up with a high American demand, thus you don't see them pushing their product very hard here.

If they did care, you'd see them advertise more and do things like Glock does, i.e. put on competitions, etc.

Frankly I'm starting to loose interest in Walther's, except for the old ones, like the Models 1-9 and PPK and some P.38's.

[GLD1980]

The hell with Umarex if so! I think S&W is wrongly being acussed of bullsh-t just because Earl now has some real comp! Yeah I agree Earl knows the facts but it seems and sounds like he's been lying lately!

[Nowhere Man]

Originally posted by GLD1980
The hell with Umarex if so! I think S&W is wrongly being acussed of bullsh-t just because Earl now has some real comp! Yeah I agree Earl knows the facts but it seems and sounds like he's been lying lately!


OR,


[QUOTE]Originally posted by GLD1980
Ethics are not the discussion, niether is mis-understanding. So what we now have is a disagreement! What im asking you to do is your homework as I did and not reply as if I dont know about the SW99 using German frames and american barrels and slides. Im not accussing Earl of lying, the only negative I said of him is that he
talks alot! You need to call him so you can hear what he feels Smith is doing to the German Walther name.

oh he also said melonite is a piece of crap compared to tennifer treated barrels.





So, now you are saying that Earl is a liar?


Dave

[GLD1980]

DLM,
I'm seriously tired of the games! My ethics reply was due to the fact that I had not wanted people or myself taking a side until more information could be gathered and put toghether. Not just facts but actual buisiness dealings with both parties and Im starting to see the light!
On a less brighter note though, How are YOU going to say I'm accusing Earl Of being a liar, what I said was, " Yeah I agree Earl knows the facts but it seems and sounds like he's been lying lately! " So dont put words in my mouth. Legally its far from an accusation but it is my opinion! Why dont you do some homework so maybe your opinion might actually help out this problem, Or you can just reference back to even earlier post of mine for guidance," So please, before anyone else decides to pop-off without doing any research, [ie.calling Earl,then calling S&W.] dis-regard this thread!!!" I actually care about the Walther name and S&W and Earl being trated fairly, but there is someone in the wrong! Im not making this sh-t up, Earl did make numerous strong claims of fraud and poor quality against S&W and Im not the only one who knows.
I challenge everyone to find out for themselve's
-GLD1980- OUT

[ShipWreck]

I have both the S&W and Walther. I love the guns, but I don't see much point in getting involved in this topic. If he claims that there is fraud on S&W's part, let S&W know about it and then let them fight it out between the two of them. If S&W wants to sue him for libel, then that is their choice.

[Rockets]

Two Guns, Earl full size 40 AS P99 and S&W Walther P99c AS 9mm. Under a magnifying glass the proof marks are identical. (not that this can't be faked well, I would no know). Still a heck of a risk to fake them as most other than a few of us hardcores know what he mean or even care.

I just can't see that S&W would take the risk since most don't care, a trademark infringement suit would be huge, the few guns with allegedly fake proof marks would ad very little to the sales (most would buy them with our without.) So how does one prove this one way or the other.

Rockets Out....

[GLD1980]

I could'nt agree with you more Rockets, It does'nt make sense for S&W to do something like that. Can Earl legally face a lawsuit for the things he says? Shed some light on the matter Rockets!

[Mnukedude]

Hopefully I don't step on any toes with this, GLD1980:

I'll start with your post. To begin with, Earl is half right in that the Tennifer PROCESS is illegal in the United States. This is why S&W uses a melonite finish on the SW-99's they build--it's the closest thing to Tennifer you can make in the US. You can IMPORT all the Tennifer finished pistols you want to the US ("You" means an authorized importer, not neccesarily you personally), you just can't make 'em here. Which is better? No idea.


As to bad mouthing the barrels as he did, that could be his opinion, but I doubt S&W does anything of the kind for the PURPOSE of disguising bad work. They might make their barrels out of stainless, but if they do, I think there is another reason why, and hiding something has nothing to do with it. (Stainless easier to get, perhaps, or maybe it responds better to melonite treatment, who knows) There comes a point where the effort to conceal the truth as he describes begins to entail so much risk and so much work that they might as well have done it right in the first place. Take the alleged false proof marks, for example. The proof marks indicate meeting a German manufacturing standard. Given the possibility that such guns might find their way back to Germany, such misrepresentations might be of interest to the German government. All I'm saying is it is a terrible risk they'd be taking if this is true.

If Earl IS correct, these are mighty big statements he's making. Hopefully he hasn't been making them without having already gotten the proof for himself, or when S&W hears of this, he'll be slapped with a hefty lawsuit. If he's got the proof, they won't dare. They will likely correct the problem fast and quiet, to include anyone they know whose had problems because of it. The point is we don't need to get any proof. If there is proof to be had, Earl already has it. I would simply encourage him to seriously go public with it. If he won't, there may be a reason, and S&W may, as Shipwreck points out, sue for libel (since this was spoken communication, slander might be a better charge to make). Any time one willfully and knowingly make statements that are false to someone publicly about someone else for the purpose of destroying their reputation, they open themselves up to legal action.

[Nowhere Man]

Let's see. It's either:

A. Smith and Wesson is illegally stamping German proof marks on guns they manufacture in the U.S. in violation of numerous federal and international laws...

OR,

B. Earl from Earl's Repair, while speaking to a complete stranger on the phone, knowingly makes slanderous statements, opening himself up to legal action...

Or,

C. Someone misunderstood what was said in a telephone conversation and posted the miscommunication on G.T. resulting in numerous postings...



Hmmmm. You decide.

[thejackbull45]

Maybe German quality in handguns is going down hill. A recent news report said Mercedes-Benz defect percentage was only topped by Jeep, which is owned by MB.

[Rockets]

I'd go along with Mnukeduke here. Heck of a risk if Earl is wrong but I have spoken with him and bought from him in the past few months and he is very bitter toward S&W. I just wanted to order a handgun but could not get my order in till he got off his soapbox after 10 minutes of S&W bashing.

(And about German quality as an above poster alluded to in general.) On Earl's guns, I have an issue there that hopefully is in some sort of resolution mode, if not I will have more to say latter)

Rockets Out....

[GLD1980]

Hey DLM,
Well.........hmmmmmmmmm.........I think I'll ........aaaaaaaaah........hmmmmmmmmm.....pick "b"......aaah..........yeeeaahhhh........aaaaaaaaah........hmmmmmmmmm.....!

Only a jacka-s would pick "C" especially If he,(DLM) decided not to call Earl himself as a "complete stranger" and hear what is going on for himself to see if his "OWN" theory was correct! Am I starting to make sense now DLM? Do you understand me? Did you call Earl to test out your provided answer "C"! Its sounds like your medling in the hot air department again, just stop blowing it in my direction please! Thank You.
Sincerley,
GLD1980

[ShipWreck]

Personally, who here is worried about this? If Earl is lying or not? I love my SW99 and compact Walther. But it doesn't really matter to me what he says on the phone. It's S&W's problem if they wanna do something about it...

[blueiron]

Ten days later....

its still non sequitur.

[denfoote]

Did anybody think to ask Smith and Wesson??

If they are making guns that meet the German standards, then maybe they have the right to use the proofmarks!! If so, then they have papers granting them permission in their possission!!

[Rockets]

Also, and I am not an expert here but from what I have read and played with most Stainless will not hold a magnet or will not hold a magnet very well. If one had both a proofmarked barrel and a non-proofmarked barrel I think there would be a very noticable difference in how hard the magnet stuck to them. Then I guess one could start testing proofmarked barrels with the S&W markings on the slide to see if it was Stainless, as I understand this only S&W makes the Stainless Barrel.

Rockets Out....

[thejackbull45]

Info on Magnetic SS


http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae546.cfm

http://www.assda.asn.au/asp/index.asp?pgid=18535

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1140

[Fenris Wolf]

The proofmarks on Walther pistols are German government proofmarks, showing that the pistols passed whatever tests are required by the German government. I doubt S&W is forging them.

[Rockets]

Sounds like maybe-maybe not on the Stainless test, though I would expect one could measure the difference in amount of pull somehow. I would expect the magnet to pull off the SS easier. Once again just guessing and if one did not have both kinds of barrels one would have to come up with the exact same setup to compare notes here, likey too complicated.

Rockets Out...

[GLD1980]

I e-mailed Dr. Lunde from the FAQ page on P99's this thread. Maybe hell join G.T. and give some input.

[Mnukedude]

Hey shipwreck! What happened to the GI JOE character?

[ShipWreck]

Originally posted by Mnukedude
Hey shipwreck! What happened to the GI JOE character?

He's still around. It's just that I swopped avatars on a few other sights, and i thouht I would do so here. The file size limit keeps my choices down, though...

[thejackbull45]

Originally posted by Fenris Wolf
The proofmarks on Walther pistols are German government proofmarks, showing that the pistols passed whatever tests are required by the German government. I doubt S&W is forging them.

Your post made me think of a gun rag article on the P99 in 1999/2000. I could be wrong but it seems I remember that SW was proofing them in the US under German approval. Again dont quote me I could be way off on this.

[lunde]

I have a few thoughts on this issue.

First and foremost, the history of the P99's importation into the US has changed a bit over the years. Interarms was the first importer, I think.

Earl thinks of himself as "Mr. Walther" in the US, and for good reason. He obviously has a passion for Walther firearms.

Clearly, Earl would have preferred to be the sole importer of the P99, and I am sure that there have been some interactions between him and S&W of which we are not aware, and about which we'll never know.

For the buyer, the biggest difference between buying a P99 AS or P99c AS from Earl versus one imported by S&W is the price.

I have a P99 imported by Earl. It is one of the so-called Euro versions, with a different rear sight, no importer markings on the slide (instead, they are on the barrel hood).

Given that S&W has its own P99-style pistol, the SW99, and that they haven't been giving the P99 much emphasis in the US, I doubt they'd go to the trouble of forging proofmarks. Forging an "eagle over N" is one thing, but one of the proofmarks on the frame, specifically the staghorn, is for a specific proofhouse in Germany. When S&W made the slides and barrels for 5,000 or so P99s in .40 Auto a few years ago, they didn't bother to proofmark them.

Is Earl making these comments to somehow protect/justify his higher prices? Do I like having "Smith & Wesson" stamped on the right side of the P99? Nope, but I also understand that Smith & Wesson was the importer, and our laws require that the importer's name and location be stamped on the firearm.

I personally feel that S&W and Earl should complement each other, and I thought that the market was going to move in that direction with S&W no longer importing the AS versions. But, P99 AS pistols are still available as imported by S&W, and Earl sells only 9mm versions (on this point I agree with him, specifically that the P99 is best in 9mm).

The comment about tennifer is way off base. Applying tennifer is not allowed in the US, but objects that are tennifer-treated are fine. It's the process, not the result, that is not allowed. Glock slides and barrels are tennifer-treated, too. While I am not an expert on magnetic properties of various metals, treated or otherwise, my P99 slides and barrel have a very strong magnetic bond when I bring a magnet near them. Three of my P99s are recent, with AE datecodes. One is a P99 AS 9mm, and the other two are a pair of P99c AS 9mm pistols.

As a side note, Walther has been having a terrible time with silver-colored slides. The original QPQ (Quench/Polish/Quench) was replaced with Titanium Coated. Then, they discovered that although the slides have tennifer treatment under the titanium coating, they were no more corrosion resistant than standard blueing. The Titanium Coated versions were stopped over a year ago, if memory serves. For this reason, I feel that the ideal silver finish for the P99 is hard chrome. I recommended that to Carl Walther (one of the designers of the P99 has become a good friend, and I met him in person at this year's SHOT Show). Interestingly, Earl is offering P99s with hard-chromed slides. I have a (pre-2004) P99 AS 9mm in Titanium Coated configuration, and have been thinking to have its hard-chromed.

[ShipWreck]

Well, I looked at Earl's website and was thinking of going w/ him to get my slide hard chromed. But, if memory serves correct, he wants somewhere around $200 bucks just to hard chrome the slide. Tripp research is only $80 + shipping, and he does a fantsastic job, from what I have heard...

[lunde]

There's a good chance that Earl simply sends the slides to Tripp Research for the hard-chrome finish...

[GLD1980]

Hey Shipwreck & Dr. Lunde,
What is the purpose of a hard-Chromed barrel and do either one of you have pictures?

[lunde]

Did you intentionally write "barrel," or did you mean "slide" instead? Earl has a photo of this on his web site, I think. Yep, he does: http://www.carlwalther.com/images/p99ac_hc_slide.jpg

http://www.carlwalther.com/images/p99ac_hc_slide.jpg

The purpose would be to get the "look" of the Titanium Coated P99, but without its flaws. If you want a silver barrel, hard-chrome that sucker, too.

[GLD1980]

I see....Thanks Doc....I did'nt even realize I mis-understood barrel and slide applications. It does look nice though!

[Nowhere Man]

GLD1980,

40 posts. Has your original question been answered?

Dave

[lunde]

While his question may not have been answered, perhaps he has a better understanding of why getting an answer is difficult.

[presspics]

The good Dr. Lunde shows his vast knowledge once again. If Ken were a woman I would marry him :supergrin: .

I have had the pleasure of meeting Earl several times. I live 25 minutes from his shop. He is a nice enough guy once ou get to talking to him. He is however VERY bitter over S&W importing the P99. There was no misunderstanding, he told me in person that S&W "fakes" the proof marks on the P99 pistols. He told me that S&W makes and assembles the P99 and etches fake proof marks on them. I just let his rantings go in one ear and out the other (I may have to go there again so why burn the bridge). I believe that he says these things in order to justify his high prices and because he is so bitter over the loss of his sole importation priveleges. Earl has also told me that his pistols come directly from the Walther factory and that he has a "special" deal with them to be the importer of the true German guns. Again, I say that is horse hockey.

Earl is simply pushing his own agenda. I suspect that S&W doesn't persue any legal action against Earl because he is simply too small a fish to bother with.

BTW, If you are into Walther firearms and you happen to be in Massachusetts you owe it to yourself to stop by Earls shop. It is a "candy store" of Walther firearms.

[Mnukedude]

If your assessment is correct Press, it is really sad that Earl wastes so much emotional energy on S&W that he needs to lie to justify himself rather than allow his quality to speak for itself.

[uncut]

Presspics

I am glad it is you and not me that lives 25 minutes from Earl's
If it was me I would by now live in a safe that is filled with Walther's :supergrin:

I had said it on another board.... I would love to go there one day just to see all that he got.....

I also have said this before on other forums...... he is from what I know a "one man shop" goes to Germany does all his work himself... can you blame him for being pissed at S&W..... I have talked to him numerous times... and I am glad he is around.... I also purchased from him before and it was smooth sailing .....

I take him for what he is......Earl
I hope he is around long enough for me to buy a few more of the Walther's

[presspics]

Notice that I didn't knock him. I understand his feelings. I also understand the position that Walther was in. They needed an importer with some clout and resources in the US.

uncut, I wish that I had the money to fill my safe with Walthers. Earl's shop is first rate. He has everything that you could imagine for a Walther.

BTW, he does have several employees. He's not exactly a one man shop :)

[RickJZ]

Earl is a great guy to do business with. He is extremely honest and informative about the products which he sells. I have purchased several 'high-end' Walther pistols from him; could'nt be better. Earl is a one-stop shop. I am extremely disappointed that S&W was authorized by Walther to distribute their products in the United States. I do not trust S&W at all. I am very knowledgeable about Walther pistols; have been collecting for many years. I caught S&W in an out-right lie recently. I telephoned to inquire if they were still importing the P99c AS model. The rep. told me Walther is no longer producing that model. I subsequently explained to him that I telephoned Walther directly (as I speak German). I explained that Walther does in fact still produce the AS compact model and has no plans to discontinue it. There was suddenly a 10 second period of silence on the phone. The rep. said he'll check the data in his computer. I provided him with an sku #. All of a sudden inventory was available in S&W's vault! I do not trust them at all. IMHO, they were a sell-out to the law-abidding who support the second ammendment. Maybe at one time they produce a decent revolver, but they ruined their product by incorporated the ridiculous internal locking mechanism. When it comes to Walther's, which I am a loyal follower of the brand and its superior quality, Earl has my business and trust not S&W.

[GLD1980]

Smith&Wesson unlike Earls smaller operation is not has educated nor will they ever come close to Earls in the knowledge and appreciation of the Walther Germany line of firearms. Has a large corperation it is often expected for them to be compitent in Inventory and product knowledge. Sometimes has customers though we should stop expecting of those we already know dont appreciate Walther's and find better ways to help ourselves. Smith&Wesson does not intend to represent Walther with the same attention and devotion & loyalty has Earl, they simply have there hands full with there own product lines and Walther does'nt account for enough revenue for them to switch there game plan.

Now I must also state that even though they are not knowledgable they still do " A Hell of a Job," when it comes to the handling of problems and customer service issues! Now for instance, RickJZ, with your case in specific, "On things like AS/QA/DAO/QPQ, and other P99 models, They really dont know sshhiitt!" You as the customer must guide them along being patient and informative to help them get to where they need to be. There like children in that aspect, in need of guidance. They get it right eventually.

Pro vs. Cons.

Smith doesnt lie, they just dont know but try to act like they do! Earl does make false accuisations "LIE" to save face and justify those high prices.

Earl doesnt have the pull he used to in corrective actions when it comes to defective material or warranty problems, Smith can just give you a brand new gun! And yes, they done it!

Earl does have the best Walther collection of original german Firearms and is very knowledgable, Smith does not have either of these traits but, They will try alot harder than the very arrogant Earl!

[thejackbull45]

Originally posted by RickJZ
The rep. said he'll check the data in his computer. I provided him with an sku #. All of a sudden inventory was available in S&W's vault! I do not trust them at all.

Why would they keep inventory in their vault but not want to sell it??


IMHO, they were a sell-out to the law-abidding who support the second ammendment.

That was under different owners.

Maybe at one time they produce a decent revolver, but they ruined their product by incorporated the ridiculous internal locking mechanism.

+

When it comes to Walther's, which I am a loyal follower of the brand and its superior quality, Earl has my business and trust not S&W.

Do you have anything to base your mistrust?? Do you trust Glock???

[srf]

"...he also said melonite was a piece of crap compared to tennifer barrels..."

http://www.burlingtoneng.com/melonite.html

You be the judge.

[RickJZ]

in regard to your comment, thejackbull45, it is beyond me why they would keep inventory in their vault and not want to sell it. The reason I phoned S&W in the first place, was to inquire if they did still import the P99c (which by-the-way, I was told by several dealers that S&W was not importing it/or Walther was not producing it. I knew prior the real facts-of-the-matter. I just wanted to obtain S&W 'official' stance. When I asked the rep. why such a small number of the P99c was kept in their vault, I was told they were being held in reserve for detectives or other le who might request a da/sa model. Just for the record, I do not mistrust Glock, I have two model 26's and I absolutely love them.

[thejackbull45]

Originally posted by RickJZ
in regard to your comment, thejackbull45, it is beyond me why they would keep inventory in their vault and not want to sell it. The reason I phoned S&W in the first place, was to inquire if they did still import the P99c (which by-the-way, I was told by several dealers that S&W was not importing it/or Walther was not producing it. I knew prior the real facts-of-the-matter. I just wanted to obtain S&W 'official' stance. When I asked the rep. why such a small number of the P99c was kept in their vault, I was told they were being held in reserve for detectives or other le who might request a da/sa model. Just for the record, I do not mistrust Glock, I have two model 26's and I absolutely love them.


So you dont trust SW because of this misinformation given to you but you trust Glock even though they refuse to do recalls when their products develop problems but weasel out by calling them upgrades. :upeyes:

[thejackbull45]

Originally posted by RickJZ
in regard to your comment, thejackbull45, it is beyond me why they would keep inventory in their vault and not want to sell it. The reason I phoned S&W in the first place, was to inquire if they did still import the P99c (which by-the-way, I was told by several dealers that S&W was not importing it/or Walther was not producing it. I knew prior the real facts-of-the-matter. I just wanted to obtain S&W 'official' stance. When I asked the rep. why such a small number of the P99c was kept in their vault, I was told they were being held in reserve for detectives or other le who might request a da/sa model. Just for the record, I do not mistrust Glock, I have two model 26's and I absolutely love them.


You state you dont know why they keep inventory in their vault and then explain why they keep the inventory in their vault. What the heck????

[RickJZ]

thejackbull45, I promptly responded and clarified your reply to my response. What is it that you do not understand to my response? In some regards, you 'waffle' on the issue. For the record, are you a cogniscenti of Walther (Germany)? I speak with individuals at Walther (Germany) on a frequent basis. With all due respect, you are rather combative in your replies.

[thejackbull45]

Originally posted by RickJZ
thejackbull45, I promptly responded and clarified your reply to my response. What is it that you do not understand to my response?

Sorry but there was no clarification.


In some regards, you 'waffle' on the issue.

Waffle? What are you talking about?


For the record, are you a cogniscenti of Walther (Germany)? I speak with individuals at Walther (Germany) on a frequent basis. With all due respect, you are rather combative in your replies.

You made a number of statements that were in your face. I merely questioned you logic.