Sham-BJ and Tito..OH MY! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Colubrid
11-22-2005, 01:40
Should be an interesting '06 with BJ Penn back in the UFC and to have Ken Shamrock and Tito Ortiz as couches of TUF 3.


* BJ Penn vs George St Pierre (will be thee best fight of '06)
* Frank Mir is back to take his belt
* I can hear the smack talk now as Shamrock will be saying he "will beat the living death out of Tito" . Ha Ha Ha!

2006 will catapult MMA to a wider audience

Roundeyesamurai
11-22-2005, 12:50
Originally posted by Colubrid
2006 will catapult MMA to a wider audience

Which will generate greater demand for MMA training for amateurs, which means more frauds opening up gyms and claiming to teach BJJ, which means the skill base becomes diluted, which means more instructors in the future will be less skilled, which means the next generation of BJJers will suffer from poorer instruction...

The more things change, the more things stay the same.

ShootNMove
11-22-2005, 13:02
The GOOD thing is, that the barbaric rep we all had in the MMA/BJJ world is going away.

And I disagree about the spreading of BJJ being bad. We want it to spread and eventually become an Olympic sport, right? Plus, some smaller cities like where I live, are limited to one or two schools in the area that harbor so much drama that you are forced out of the sport all together. Fresh faces provide more opportunity to train for more people. And yes, I agree that there are some frauds out there, but it all evens out when you see the Open event at your local tournament. That's when you see that the guy who wears a white belt (only because he had to work or was out to sea when the team got ranked), win the open and defeat a well-feared brown belt.

If people are serious about BJJ, they will make the effort to nail down their fundamentals and learn the new techniques as they emerge. IMHO, the elitists are the ones who should get slammed b/c they are bilking their students for ridiculous amounts of money.

Roundeyesamurai
11-22-2005, 13:07
Originally posted by ShootNMove
And I disagree about the spreading of BJJ being bad. We want it to spread and eventually become an Olympic sport, right?

Considering that BJJ sells itself on its realism, no you don't.

"Sport" and "money" are the sole two factors which killed the Japanese martial arts.

ShootNMove
11-22-2005, 14:34
Learning martial arts and self defense is not the same thing.

I quit my first BJJ school (Relson Gracie himself) b/c they were teaching us based on a points game.

I learned much more at my next school that taught the best from BJJ, Judo, MT, boxing, and wrestling.

While I agree that BJJ is more useful by itself than TKD or karate by theirselves, it is not really a complete system.

Don't get me wrong, I love BJJ, but if you want to defend yourself, you have to learn everything from grappling to striking to knives to guns.

I totally agree with you about the money ruining martial arts, that in fact, is why I'm not training right now.

Roundeyesamurai
11-22-2005, 14:45
Originally posted by ShootNMove
Learning martial arts and self defense is not the same thing.

I quit my first BJJ school (Relson Gracie himself) b/c they were teaching us based on a points game.

I learned much more at my next school that taught the best from BJJ, Judo, MT, boxing, and wrestling.

While I agree that BJJ is more useful by itself than TKD or karate by theirselves, it is not really a complete system.

Don't get me wrong, I love BJJ, but if you want to defend yourself, you have to learn everything from grappling to striking to knives to guns.

I totally agree with you about the money ruining martial arts, that in fact, is why I'm not training right now.

You missed my point entirely. I am speaking in historical terms.

The martial methods of the samurai, which were (and are) the most combat-tested methods ever to exist on the earth, became the McDojos of today because of a very few factors.

Quite simply, those methods fell because they were convereted into a "sport", disseminated to the masses, and altered in order to make them profitable business enterprises.

It took several decades for that effect to become fully apparent, but it really was that slight a change to go from battlefield combat method to useless crap.

I see the same thing happening in BJJ- a method which sold itself on practicality, which is now being touted as a "sport", being disseminated to greater and greater masses of the public, and run as a business enterprise.

This is how dilution of a martial art (or whatever term you prefer for a combat method) occurs.

ShootNMove
11-22-2005, 14:51
Now I understand.

You are 100% right about that.

kruger
11-22-2005, 16:58
Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
You missed my point entirely. I am speaking in historical terms.

The martial methods of the samurai, which were (and are) the most combat-tested methods ever to exist on the earth, became the McDojos of today because of a very few factors.

Quite simply, those methods fell because they were convereted into a "sport", disseminated to the masses, and altered in order to make them profitable business enterprises.

It took several decades for that effect to become fully apparent, but it really was that slight a change to go from battlefield combat method to useless crap.

I see the same thing happening in BJJ- a method which sold itself on practicality, which is now being touted as a "sport", being disseminated to greater and greater masses of the public, and run as a business enterprise.

This is how dilution of a martial art (or whatever term you prefer for a combat method) occurs.

Please use a broader brush. You missed a few spots.

Seriously, the Japanese martial arts and their derivatives cover such a broad spectrum of purposes as to make your point baseless.

Koryu arts, like Araki Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu, and Yanagi Ryu, are direct descendents of the battlefield arts you hold in high esteem. They are extant Japanese martial arts and most defintely not sports or monetary ventures.

While you can argue about the martial validity of -do arts like Aikido, Iaido, and Kyudo. Arguing about their martial validity misses the point of these arts. They are, for the most part, not sports and not really big money makers. Their -jitsu counterparts have as much martial validity as BJJ within their contexts.

Judo is mainly a sport, but to argue that it is less martially valid in today's enviornment than a Koryu Jujitsu art is asinine.

Karate can be a sport and has seen the most dilution. There are plenty of McDojo's that practice what they call karate. This, however, is no reason to denigrate the entire art.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger

Roundeyesamurai
11-22-2005, 17:03
Mark-

I used broad terms because I was speaking to someone who (presumably) doesn't know the history of the topic in great detail.

Being that I teach primarily aikido and iaido, I fully understand that I'd even be painting myself with it.