Over Penetration

[thejackbull45]

The 357 seems like an amazing round, I dont know why more LE agencys and ccw dont use it.

Anyway, how big a problem is over penetration for CC? I can see the advantage for leos etc but since any shooting I do would be in the 10 ft range, what are the chances of over penetration? How would this compare the other major calibers?

[texmex]

Overpenetration is one of the most overrated problems with handgun ammunition. The idea that a bullet somehow does more damage if it stays in a target is baloney. The ideal situation to me would be for the bullet to completely penetrate and then fall to the ground just on the other side of the exit wound. I have personally been to a shooting where the bullet exited the victim and stopped inside his shirt. He was leaning up against a padded bar and the shirt was a nylon polo type. The bullet was a standard 158 gr. LRN 38 Special out of a 2 inch Colt Detective Special. The range was about 6 feet. The entry was to the left side of the small of the back and the exit was on the right side of the front abdomen. The victim immediately fell off his bar stool but remained concious. He expired about an hour later at the hospital.

The best I can hope for out of a handgun bullet is that it expands to as large a caliber as possinble while still penetrating far enough to reach the major blood vessels, spine, brain, or major organ like the heart and liver. As far as I'm concerned, the exit wound just means I got enough penetration and there are two holes for blood to run out of.

I've personally seen two 45 ACP 185gr. Silvertips fail to get the job done due to a lack of penetration although it did have have excellent expansion. Texas DPS switched away from the 45 ACP twice due to lack of penetration. I now carry a 357 SIG because I want power and penetration. To me, the 40 S&W offers the worst of both worlds, small caliber and poor penetration. I think the 10MM is much better. Lots of the old timers who carried 1911s when I was a young officer carried hardball exclusively. I am beginning to suspect they knew what they were doing. Remember the shooting where the South Carolina Highway Patrol officer was killed by a fat guy with a Mini 22 because his 357 Magnum Silvertips did not penetrate far enough to cause incapacitation?

If someone were to check out all the previous shootings where an innocent bystander was hit, I would bet that 1% or less and maybe even none were hit by a round that had already penetrated another person. By standers are hit by stray rounds (misses). I would imagine LAPD would have some data on this probably from drivebys.
When gangbangers fire into crowds, how often do rounds hit more than one person and how far do they penetrate the 2nd person? Anybody out there have any info on this they want to share?

I've only been in one gunfight where I was in the middle of town. I fired seven rounds and my partner fired one round. None of our rounds hit anything other than the bad guy or the car he was in.

Over penetration may be a problem with some rifles or even 12 gauge slugs but probably not with 357 SIG, 357 Mag, 9MM, 40, 45 etc. It's still always a good idea to think about what is behind the target. I always figured if I had to shoot someone in a crowd I might crouch or kneel down so my bullet path would angle up. I just hope I'm not unlucky enough to have a really short target or a really tall person behind them.

[thejackbull45]

Thanks for the reply. Always nice to hear from experience.

[texmex]

You are very welcome. Before anybody gets the idea that I am anti 45ACP, let me say that there are better loads out today than what I used to use. When I do carry a 45 nowadays, I carry Gold Dot 200 gr. plus p. That's what my agency requires. I think the extra velocity of the plus p loads may help with the penetration and the gold dots bonded construction should help also.

[Tommy Vercetti]

Originally posted by thejackbull45
The 357 seems like an amazing round, I dont know why more LE agencys and ccw dont use it.

Anyway, how big a problem is over penetration for CC? I can see the advantage for leos etc but since any shooting I do would be in the 10 ft range, what are the chances of over penetration? How would this compare the other major calibers?

I wouldn't worry too much about over-penetration with any of the various 125gr. offerings. I carry my 31 loaded with Hornady's 147gr. XTP primarily for it's incredible accuracy, but also because I know it won't leave me wanting in the penetration department. When I'm home my Benelli M3 is my wife and I's gaurdian along with my two noisy little dogs.:) ;c

[boze2043]

I was told in the academy that SC trooper shot that guy with a .38 and that it did not have enough power to penetrate all that fat. The lesson was that a .38 was to weak for a back up caliber. The part that did not make sence in this lesson was that the trooper was shot with a .22 and died in just a few minutes. Shot placement is what killed the trooper. We were told the .22 entered his arm pit and went across his chest penetrating his heart and he blead to death.

Also a .38 from a 2in barrel would be pretty slow, I'm surprised that it went through that guy even at that range.

I don't buy into all the penetration hype. Their are to many factors to consider. Type of bullet, wieght of bullet, powder and primer used, length of barrel, distance between gun and target, what organs and/or bones that the bullet comes in contact with, change in bullet direction when hitting said organs and/or bones and even the temperature affects bullet speed.

[texmex]

"In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated."



"After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement."

"Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates."

"The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour."

"None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison."
quoted from Firearms Tactical Institute Tactical Briefs #3, 15 March 1998 "The Myth of Energy Transfer"

[G33]

Over penetration is mostly a myth in handguns.
Often used by LEO administrations to deflect from misses.
Wow?;Q

[kidcoltoutlaw]

Why even think about it when most shots never hit the target any way. More is better to a point.

[DeadMansLife]

Show me the court case where someone was convicted or even charged because his bullet over-penetrared.

[kidcoltoutlaw]

It goes through the bad guy and kills a kid. Still most people are going to miss more than they hit. Me I love a very fast 125 gold dot. Speed will sometimes make a bullet expand so fast it cuts down on the penetration. I just love it for the damage ;g

[PaleGreenHorse]

The bottom line is 2 holes bleed better than 1. PGH~