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thejackbull45
11-25-2005, 16:12
Went car shopping today and found out that the Pontiac Torrents engine is made in China! I couldnt believe it. They lay off 30K people but build their engines in China. Makes me ;0

kawalerzysta
11-27-2005, 08:48
Originally posted by thejackbull45
Went car shopping today and found out that the Pontiac Torrents engine is made in China! I couldnt believe it. They lay off 30K people but build their engines in China. Makes me ;0
Its equivalent Chevy Equinox's engine is also made in China. Third twin of Torrent nad Equinox, Saturn Vue, is using Honda engine instead chinese powerplant.

dfbarnes
11-29-2005, 03:36
Most of the UAW people I know make me sick.

thejackbull45
11-29-2005, 06:28
Originally posted by dfbarnes
Most of the UAW people I know make me sick.

?

PhuzzyGnu
11-29-2005, 06:44
If you buy a GM car, $1600 goes to pay for employee benefits.

The 30,000 people losing their jobs are losing them becuase the unions have steadfastly refused to make any meaningful concessions for decades and have effectively priced themselves out of the market- similar to the fates that the airlines faced.

You can not pay people $40 an hour or more for life to do largely automated, unskilled labor and expect to remain competitive.

I believe unions were instrumental in gaining better working conditions, better wages, and better benefits in the past. Now their jutted-chin denial of economic fact is costing their members' jobs, their companies' fiscal stability, and shareholders' value.

My 2.

-p.

Davegrave
11-29-2005, 07:01
Originally posted by PhuzzyGnu
If you buy a GM car, $1600 goes to pay for employee benefits.

The 30,000 people losing their jobs are losing them becuase the unions have steadfastly refused to make any meaningful concessions for decades and have effectively priced themselves out of the market- similar to the fates that the airlines faced.

You can not pay people $40 an hour or more for life to do largely automated, unskilled labor and expect to remain competitive.

I believe unions were instrumental in gaining better working conditions, better wages, and better benefits in the past. Now their jutted-chin denial of economic fact is costing their members' jobs, their companies' fiscal stability, and shareholders' value.

My 2.

-p.

+1000
I've yet to find an anti-union post I didn't like.
They had their place, they served their purpose, time to move on.

donbubbo
11-29-2005, 07:16
LCR

CMA G21
11-29-2005, 07:30
Originally posted by kawalerzysta
...Saturn Vue, is using Honda engine instead chinese powerplant.

I believe GM worked out a trade with Honda for those engines (GM diesels for the Honda 6 cylinder engines for the Vue).

thejackbull45
11-29-2005, 08:10
Originally posted by PhuzzyGnu
If you buy a GM car, $1600 goes to pay for employee benefits.

The 30,000 people losing their jobs are losing them becuase the unions have steadfastly refused to make any meaningful concessions for decades and have effectively priced themselves out of the market- similar to the fates that the airlines faced.

You can not pay people $40 an hour or more for life to do largely automated, unskilled labor and expect to remain competitive.

I believe unions were instrumental in gaining better working conditions, better wages, and better benefits in the past. Now their jutted-chin denial of economic fact is costing their members' jobs, their companies' fiscal stability, and shareholders' value.

My 2.

-p.

I agree but do you think buying from China is a solution?

dfbarnes
11-29-2005, 16:22
I do have to wonder if it would have been better to come up with something from somewhere different... I thought GM was working with Daewoo? Is that the Aveo?

epsylum
11-29-2005, 16:41
Buy a real car, buy a Toyota.

;f

The Japanese car companies will soon be employing more Americans than the American car companies.

PhuzzyGnu
11-29-2005, 20:58
Is buying a Toyota made in Kentucky more patriotic? How about a Honda made in Ohio? Or a Dodge truck made in Mexico?

The lines of "country of origin" are blurred. Buy whatever damn car or truck floats your boat.

-p.

thejackbull45
11-30-2005, 04:06
Originally posted by PhuzzyGnu
Is buying a Toyota made in Kentucky more patriotic? How about a Honda made in Ohio? Or a Dodge truck made in Mexico?

The lines of "country of origin" are blurred. Buy whatever damn car or truck floats your boat.

-p.


China is a far different animal than Mexico.


And yes I would buy Toyota over GM. As far as I have seen the Toyotas are American/Japanese made.

thejackbull45
11-30-2005, 04:08
Originally posted by PhuzzyGnu

You can not pay people $40 an hour or more for life to do largely automated, unskilled labor and expect to remain competitive.



American car makers are not competitive because they make crap compared to Toyota/Honda.

The greed in Detroit starts at the top IMHO.

PhuzzyGnu
11-30-2005, 08:42
Originally posted by thejackbull45
American car makers are not competitive because they make crap compared to Toyota/Honda.

The greed in Detroit starts at the top IMHO.

Toyota and Honda make engineering works of art- no doubt. And I will agree that many American "price-point" cars are not as good- not crap, but not as refi

Crap was an 88 Pontiac 6000. An '82 Cutlass. A '78 Mustang. the American car companies are lightyears ahead of where they were.

Anyway, like I said, buy whatever damn car floats your boat. A friend owns and will only own for now until the end of time Toyota MR2s. An eco-weenie friend drives a Prius. My neighbors drive two Pontiac Grand Prix because he used to be a manager at a dealership or something. My granny likes Crown Vics and Grand Marquis because they are what she likes. My mom drives a Lexus LX470 because, of all things, it kneels 3" when you push a button and is easy on her replaced knee. My in-laws only drive Chevy Silverado pickups because of their work and because they load up and go to Mexico all the time and because "Ford sucks". My wife drives a Suburban because of the two kids. I drive a 20 year old van because I sold my motorcycle because my wife has a newer Suburban because of the two kids.

Personally, if I was gonnna by a new vehicle it would be a diesel flatbed Ford or Dodge truck. I wouldn't buy anything the aforementioned people bought. But that's me.


And the greed always starts at the top in any corporation because that is where greed is fed.

-p.

thejackbull45
11-30-2005, 08:54
Its a shame no one cares about this, a real shame.

Markcuda
11-30-2005, 09:05
Its a shame no one cares about this, a real shame.
Your right, I could care less :)
Buy what to hell makes you happy :cool:

thejackbull45
11-30-2005, 09:21
Originally posted by Markcuda
Your right, I could care less :)
Buy what to hell makes you happy :cool:


Yeah its all about you.


Maybe you will care when this country no longer exists.

Markcuda
11-30-2005, 09:26
Yeah its all about you.
When I spend my hard earned money, I don't care one iota about you;Q
My money is not yours ;P

thejackbull45
11-30-2005, 09:34
Originally posted by Markcuda
When I spend my hard earned money, I don't care one iota about you;Q
My money is not yours ;P


Since all you care about is money, how much do you think your taxes will go up due to layoffs, plant closures, business closings etc etc.
Oh yeah thats right you cant think that far ahead.


Hard earned money huh, you sound like a blue collar worker. LOL. Typical narrow minded thinking.


Like I said, its all about you. Sorry to hear you dont care about your country. If everyone thought like you, we'd have no military, no public service nothing.

Your mamma failed in raising you.

Markcuda
11-30-2005, 09:38
If you only knew how much I am laughing at you ;z
Your killin' me here :cool:

dfbarnes
11-30-2005, 14:42
I'm starting to laugh too.

So you seriously think the country is going to fall apart because so many union sheep lost their jobs?

Where was your computer made? Your TV? Any other damn thing in your house? Where was your gun made?

We live in a global economy. Even auto makers have this figured out. You couldn't, if you tried, find a "U.S." vehicle made of entirely U.S.-made components.

The people who need to catch up with the global economy, union asses, already have, and just don't realize it. While they put up "No foreign auto parking" signs, more than half the stuff they consume is made overseas.

The UAW, among all the other unions, feed them the lie that there still exists a true "U.S.-made" option. That option is no longer here. If it were, the economy would fall apart. Here's why:

You want a cheap Pontiac that will compete with the economy foreign cars, made entirely in the U.S.? Made entirely in the U.S., the price just doubled, because of how much more GM would have to pay union workers in the U.S. to build it. Because the UAW has their sheep convinced that their simple labor is somehow better than the simple labor of non-union workers, or God-forbid, foreign workers.

Unions are out-dated, out-moded, worthless for anything except getting a liberal vote from their members. It's ALMOST funny to listen to my grandpa and grandma after they come back from their union hall meetings. UAW buys the retirees trips to Branson, monthly dinners, etceteras, all the while presenting them with speeches about how "George Bush is trying to take away your pension." No joke, I've seen the propaganda. These old people, who don't know better, then go out and vote nothing but Democrat, BECAUSE THE UNIONS SAYS SO, even though the liberal agenda goes against every value they were brought up with.

So as far as the whole, "buy American," arguments goes, there is no way to "buy American."

Buy the best car you can buy, and if that means foreign, that means foreign.

And the next union worker who's been laid off, and wants to stand next to his giant brand-new Ford diesel truck, and ***** about how he can no longer make payments on his truck and 200K house because Bush laid him off, can get a reality check. All the fat bastard can do is push a button, you can't make 27.00 and hour doing that. Maybe you should get a smaller house, and a less-expensive truck, like everybody else who actually has to work for a living.

Markcuda
11-30-2005, 14:50
Ditto, sir :cool:

epsylum
11-30-2005, 17:38
Originally posted by thejackbull45
Since all you care about is money, how much do you think your taxes will go up due to layoffs, plant closures, business closings etc etc.
Oh yeah thats right you cant think that far ahead.

If the country was ran correctly, no our tazes wouldn't go up. I don't belive in welfare of any sort, coporate or personal.

If GM goes under, so be it. They dug thier own grave.

The japanese auto manufacturers are winning now becasue they are better buisness people than the big 3. The big choice that is helping them right now is saying no to unions.

My Dad works as a vice-president at a shop where the fabrication guys are union employees. The management, obviously, is not. My brother also worked there for a bit under the union. The union does a great job of keeping the most useless employees and paying them stupid amounts of money. It's rediculously hard to fire the imcompetent and to find and hire the competent. The union loves to pat themselves on the back and take pride in ripping the employer off.

The American car companies cannot keep the same level of quality for the same price because thier cars are more expensive to produce. Corners have to be cut to make them competitively priced. At first they could just cut a few here and there. Now they have to buy whole enignes from other countries or move whole operations to other countries just to stay competitive.

The unions are killing the US auto industry just as the did with the airline industry.

BTW I have a friends who worked for Ford and another that was an airline mechanic before the bottom fell out of both industries. They both bragged about how they got paid to do almost nothing.

The Ford guy was paid over $18 an hour to sweep the floor and there was no limit to the amount of overtime he could work. He said he was reading 1 novel a day becasue he had so much down time, but yet still worked 100 hours a week (no joke, he showed me his pay stub).

The airline guy joked about how the people there would hide and go to sleep on the job. It was so bad people were bringing thier own pillows and alarm clocks in. He said he made over $50k a year.

Unions need to go.

thejackbull45
11-30-2005, 18:33
Originally posted by epsylum
If the country was ran correctly, no our tazes wouldn't go up. I don't belive in welfare of any sort, coporate or personal.

But it isnt run that way.

If GM goes under, so be it. They dug thier own grave.

I agree.

The japanese auto manufacturers are winning now becasue they are better buisness people than the big 3. The big choice that is helping them right now is saying no to unions.

My Dad works as a vice-president at a shop where the fabrication guys are union employees. The management, obviously, is not. My brother also worked there for a bit under the union. The union does a great job of keeping the most useless employees and paying them stupid amounts of money. It's rediculously hard to fire the imcompetent and to find and hire the competent. The union loves to pat themselves on the back and take pride in ripping the employer off.

My comments were not pro union but pro US

The American car companies cannot keep the same level of quality for the same price because thier cars are more expensive to produce. Corners have to be cut to make them competitively priced. At first they could just cut a few here and there. Now they have to buy whole enignes from other countries or move whole operations to other countries just to stay competitive.

I dont think they spend the $$ on engineering.

The unions are killing the US auto industry just as the did with the airline industry.

And the school systems.

BTW I have a friends who worked for Ford and another that was an airline mechanic before the bottom fell out of both industries. They both bragged about how they got paid to do almost nothing.

The Ford guy was paid over $18 an hour to sweep the floor and there was no limit to the amount of overtime he could work. He said he was reading 1 novel a day becasue he had so much down time, but yet still worked 100 hours a week (no joke, he showed me his pay stub).

The airline guy joked about how the people there would hide and go to sleep on the job. It was so bad people were bringing thier own pillows and alarm clocks in. He said he made over $50k a year.

Unions need to go. [/B]

thejackbull45
11-30-2005, 18:35
Originally posted by dfbarnes
I'm starting to laugh too.

So you seriously think the country is going to fall apart because so many union sheep lost their jobs?

Where was your computer made? Your TV? Any other damn thing in your house? Where was your gun made?

We live in a global economy. Even auto makers have this figured out. You couldn't, if you tried, find a "U.S." vehicle made of entirely U.S.-made components.

The people who need to catch up with the global economy, union asses, already have, and just don't realize it. While they put up "No foreign auto parking" signs, more than half the stuff they consume is made overseas.

The UAW, among all the other unions, feed them the lie that there still exists a true "U.S.-made" option. That option is no longer here. If it were, the economy would fall apart. Here's why:

You want a cheap Pontiac that will compete with the economy foreign cars, made entirely in the U.S.? Made entirely in the U.S., the price just doubled, because of how much more GM would have to pay union workers in the U.S. to build it. Because the UAW has their sheep convinced that their simple labor is somehow better than the simple labor of non-union workers, or God-forbid, foreign workers.

Unions are out-dated, out-moded, worthless for anything except getting a liberal vote from their members. It's ALMOST funny to listen to my grandpa and grandma after they come back from their union hall meetings. UAW buys the retirees trips to Branson, monthly dinners, etceteras, all the while presenting them with speeches about how "George Bush is trying to take away your pension." No joke, I've seen the propaganda. These old people, who don't know better, then go out and vote nothing but Democrat, BECAUSE THE UNIONS SAYS SO, even though the liberal agenda goes against every value they were brought up with.

So as far as the whole, "buy American," arguments goes, there is no way to "buy American."

Buy the best car you can buy, and if that means foreign, that means foreign.

And the next union worker who's been laid off, and wants to stand next to his giant brand-new Ford diesel truck, and ***** about how he can no longer make payments on his truck and 200K house because Bush laid him off, can get a reality check. All the fat bastard can do is push a button, you can't make 27.00 and hour doing that. Maybe you should get a smaller house, and a less-expensive truck, like everybody else who actually has to work for a living.


I never said BUY AMERICAN nor did I say anything in support of unions! All I said was its a shame the engines are made in China.

Maybe you should read my posts since you open your big yap.

epsylum
11-30-2005, 18:55
Too address the original issue.

Don't buy it then, trust me you won't be the only one.

;)

dfbarnes
12-01-2005, 05:07
You think layoffs, and buying engines from China are going to cause the downfall of our nation. That pretty much sounds like buy american, and pro-union to me.

thejackbull45
12-01-2005, 06:31
Originally posted by dfbarnes
You think layoffs, and buying engines from China are going to cause the downfall of our nation. That pretty much sounds like buy american, and pro-union to me.

Do you think destroying our manufacturing base and building up China at the same time is good for the US? R&D, high tech and businesses are opening in China, this is not good.


What do you do for a living?

tweakmeister
12-01-2005, 13:39
Run to the library and take out a book on the Ricardian and Hecker-Ohlin models of trade. Then go on to the Specific Factors model. It's very interesting reading.

Here's a place online to start: http://internationalecon.com/v1.0/ch40/ch40.html

thejackbull45
12-01-2005, 14:09
Originally posted by tweakmeister
Run to the library and take out a book on the Ricardian and Hecker-Ohlin models of trade. Then go on to the Specific Factors model. It's very interesting reading.

Here's a place online to start: http://internationalecon.com/v1.0/ch40/ch40.html

A quick look at this reveals some assumptions that would be incorrect in this situation. First, there is no equlilbrium between the 2 countries involved Second, it makes no mention of countries that are politically motivated towards weakening a supplier as the EU and China are towards the US. Third It takes an overly simplistic view of the world. Fourth it doesnt account for the problems (loss of jobs and financial impacts, strain on welfare system, retraining of layed off workers etc) associated in reaching equilibrium. Fifth it assumes a barter economy. Six in the case of the US vs China as we become weakened and China becomes stronger, who will have the most influence in the political arena? Whose form of government do YOU want to follow? Seventh, it fails to address greed on part of corporations who have no desire for anything but profit, regardless of the consequences.

thejackbull45
12-01-2005, 14:10
Originally posted by dfbarnes
You think layoffs, and buying engines from China are going to cause the downfall of our nation. That pretty much sounds like buy american, and pro-union to me.

Do you think that the US will last forever?

dfbarnes
12-01-2005, 14:43
No, I don't think the U.S. will last forever, but I do think we have a damn good chance of lasting for a damn long time.

Isolationism isn't the answer though. I really don't see the threat in trade with China. It's something we've been doing in one form or another for many, many years.

Wanting to trade with China doesn't mean I want to "follow their government," either. In fact, if you consult a lot of the material concerning communism, it's often increased trade with capitalist nations that contributes to -their- downfall... not ours.

And FYI, my profession is law enforcement. Though I don't see how that applies... unless I was a union-trained button-pusher or floor-sweeper, then I might be concerned with your rhetoric.

tweakmeister
12-01-2005, 14:46
Originally posted by thejackbull45
A quick look

All valid arguments - it takes more than a quick look to get into the nitty gritty. A quick look is like firing one bullet and proclaiming "this gun is fabulous!"

There is theory and then there is application - you bring up some good arguments, but the simple fact is trade = good (in the absense of frictions).

Mr. Ajax
12-23-2005, 13:56
the unions did this to themselves. unskilled labor doesnt deserve anything over $15p/h, it's insane. ****, I'm skilled labor and I make less than that.

tweakmeister
12-23-2005, 14:40
I agree.

Folks talk about "corrupt government" - let's talk about (unregulated) corrupt unions that take advantage of their members.

Yeah, there is always a little good - but the model needs a facelift.

thejackbull45
12-23-2005, 16:11
Originally posted by dfbarnes
And FYI, my profession is law enforcement. Though I don't see how that applies... unless I was a union-trained button-pusher or floor-sweeper, then I might be concerned with your rhetoric.

Thats right, you dont care. Your job is taken care of by others taxes so you dont have to be concerned with the loss of manufacturing, IT, engineering and science jobs.

You dont care but you should.

army_eod
12-23-2005, 16:30
The bottom line. Free trade is good. But trading with China is not free trade. They use slave labor (almost). Free trade is with free and capitalist countries. Period. China uses its revenue to build the military and it will become more of a problem as time goes on.

They will be laughing at the stupid Americans. OK, they already are.

Don't buy anything Chinese made. I am trying not to. It is difficult, but can be done.

Commie China sucks. Did I mention that US Policy sucks?

tweakmeister
12-23-2005, 16:32
Have you considered the alternative? Making them trade so much that the market forces them to become less communist and more capitalist?

thejackbull45
12-23-2005, 16:36
Originally posted by army_eod
The bottom line. Free trade is good. But trading with China is not free trade. They use slave labor (almost). Free trade is with free and capitalist countries. Period. China uses its revenue to build the military and it will become more of a problem as time goes on.

They will be laughing at the stupid Americans. OK, they already are.

Don't buy anything Chinese made. I am trying not to. It is difficult, but can be done.

Commie China sucks. Did I mention that US Policy sucks?

Its very very hard not to buy chinese products.

thejackbull45
12-23-2005, 16:37
Originally posted by tweakmeister
Have you considered the alternative? Making them trade so much that the market forces them to become less communist and more capitalist?

While we ruin our industrial base? How the heck does that help the US?

tweakmeister
12-23-2005, 16:49
No, not in that sense. Yes, it's is obviously wise to maintain this nation's industrial base...to a point. But embracing Chinese manufacturing, and letting the market free the country would be very subtle.

thejackbull45
12-23-2005, 19:23
Originally posted by tweakmeister
No, not in that sense. Yes, it's is obviously wise to maintain this nation's industrial base...to a point. But embracing Chinese manufacturing, and letting the market free the country would be very subtle.

I live in an industrial state, manufacturing is being destroyed.

45acp4me
12-23-2005, 20:37
Originally posted by PhuzzyGnu
My wife drives a Suburban because of the two kids. I drive a 20 year old van because I sold my motorcycle because my wife has a newer Suburban because of the two kids.



Two kids requires a whole suburban? I know plenty of people that get by with four doors and mini vans.

While I don't like buying things that make China money, the UAW made the world market awfully appealing to the top brass at the big three. They need to turn a profit, something they are not doing right now.

tweakmeister
12-24-2005, 08:11
Originally posted by thejackbull45
I live in an industrial state, manufacturing is being destroyed.

You sound like a victim wanting more social programs. "They're destroying..."

Obviously it's not an easy place to be in - I sympathize with you, and don't have all the answers. Are the people in your state doing everything they can to adapt, or are they throwing up their arms demanding a handout?

Government sponsored operations, are sometimes the answer. Farmers get a big handout because it's important to maintain a defensive base for when wars occur again. Perhaps many of our manufacturing operations should also be subsidized.

I think the beauty of what we're turning in to - a "knowledge economy" is we can utilize a cheap manufacturing base while furthering our capabilities. We get to be on the forefront of innovation, and rebuild our industrial bases if the need arises (ie war, etc.).

thejackbull45
12-24-2005, 09:06
Originally posted by tweakmeister
You sound like a victim wanting more social programs. "They're destroying..."

Obviously it's not an easy place to be in - I sympathize with you, and don't have all the answers. Are the people in your state doing everything they can to adapt, or are they throwing up their arms demanding a handout?

Government sponsored operations, are sometimes the answer. Farmers get a big handout because it's important to maintain a defensive base for when wars occur again. Perhaps many of our manufacturing operations should also be subsidized.

I think the beauty of what we're turning in to - a "knowledge economy" is we can utilize a cheap manufacturing base while furthering our capabilities. We get to be on the forefront of innovation, and rebuild our industrial bases if the need arises (ie war, etc.).

You comment is totaly baseless. I never mentioned anything about the governement getting involved. Where do you get off making up such crap!

So you dont think you will pay if our industries are not saved? Try higher welfare, decrease in Social Security, increased crime, etc etc. It a shame if all you can do is think with your wallet.

That knowledge economy is a fallacy, our engineering, IT and science is going offshore, and is doing so at an alarming rate!

Our competition (Europe, China, Korea) is recieving a huge amount of help from their respective governments. The playing filed is hardly level.

What do you do for a living?

tweakmeister
12-24-2005, 09:42
I didn't mean to be offensive, I appologize if it was taken that way.

You mention their governments subsidizing their operations - this is true. Predatory dumping occured with RCA in the 1970's - America ended up licensing TV equipment rights to Japan and they took the knowledge and undermined our operations (ruining the US industry).

I mentioned things like farmers being subsidized - sometimes it's just the right thing to do for defensive purposes (understand I don't agree with their governments subsidizing such things as manufacturing). We look at government sponsored monopolies like Water or Power utilities - sometimes they just make the most sense for the greatest good (consider it a case where the market/pure capitalism fails us).

What I'm getting at...What do you propose? "Manufacturing is being destroyed" - okay! I agree! What now? A comment like that implies that our government should start offering hand outs.

"Offshore" - I will research the numbers, but I would argue this isn't the case when it comes to intellectual property creation. I have to run for a family Christmas occasion, Merry Christmas, and let's can pick after the weekend. :)

thejackbull45
12-24-2005, 09:49
Originally posted by tweakmeister

What I'm getting at...What do you propose? "Manufacturing is being destroyed" - okay! I agree! What now? A comment like that implies that our government should start offering hand outs.


I propose we, as Americans, do our best to buy American.

"Offshore" - I will research the numbers, but I would argue this isn't the case when it comes to intellectual property creation. I have to run for a family Christmas occasion, Merry Christmas, and let's can pick after the weekend.

Check it out, use various sources. Buildings to be built in the US are being designed in India, call the helpline for your computer, I dont think any computer is American made, chips are being made offshore. Your Xrays are being diagnosed offshore