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maomanila
12-07-2005, 22:03
Stupid or careless or both. Mabuti walang napuruhan.



Gun goes off at NAIA: 4 hurt
By Rainier Allan Ronda
The Philippine Star 12/08/2005

Four women, including two passengers bound for jobs overseas, were hurt when a policeman accidentally fired his service firearm while surrendering it to an airport security guard at an eatery of the Ninoy Aquino International Airport (NAIA) Terminal I yesterday.

Sherwena Akmad, 25, a departing passenger of a Saudia Airlines flight was hit by shrapnel in the left arm while Maritess Connell, 28, a passenger of a China Airlines flight was hit in the left leg and left arm. Gaudiosa Villanueva, an employee of the Philippine Treasure concession selling herbal supplements at the NAIA, was hit in the left leg while Maymona Dulin, a well wisher, was hit in the right thigh.

The shrapnel that hit the four women came from a supposed accidental shot fired from a Colt Mark IV caliber .45 automatic belonging to PO2 Gregorio Laso Gale, 43, of the QCPD Mobile Division based at Camp Karingal in Quezon City. The incident took place at the entrance of the WOW restaurant at the third level of the NAIA departure area at around 11:10 a.m.

Gale had accompanied his wife for her flight to Dubai.

The officer was in the act of disarming prior to depositing his service firearm to airport security guards Marvin Carpio and Gina Killip when he unintentionally pulled the trigger.

The resulting shot hit a portion of the lobby that had a steel flooring, causing shrapnel to hit the four women.

The four injured were rushed to the nearby Manila International Airport Authority’s medical clinic for treatment of their injuries.

horge
12-07-2005, 22:47
What stupidity.
Given all the safeties built into a 1911...

;Q

Lawsuits, anyone?

Allegra
12-07-2005, 22:50
Who wants to bet , kinasa nya yung slide , and then released the mag , then pulled the trigger? :)

Evan N. Payawal
12-07-2005, 22:54
That's why in countries like the US, most (if not all) police departments do not allow their officers 1911-type duty carry weapons.
(If there's any law enforcer from the US out there, please correct me if I'm wrong)
Duty carry firearms are supposed to be lawsuit resistant. It would be dificult to convince a jury that a 1911 carried in condition 1 is carried in the "safest possible way."
I know, I know, many shooters out there would argue that a maintained 1911 with all its safeties intact has proven to be very safe, but you see nowadays, you have to be "lawsuit-oriented" in everything you do.
I wonder if a locked and loaded Glock would be accepted by a jury as "safe?" Maybe. Many PDs issue it as a carry weapon.
Here in the Philippines, I even see officers carrying their 1911's condition 1 in speed holsters! Aren't those meant for range use only?

Evan N. Payawal
12-07-2005, 22:55
Originally posted by Allegra
Who wants to bet , kinasa nya yung slide , and then released the mag , then pulled the trigger? :)

Aren't you penalized if you do this on the range in competition?

Allegra
12-07-2005, 23:04
Originally posted by Evan N. Payawal
Aren't you penalized if you do this on the range in competition?


You'll be disqualified for unsafe gunhandling
This is actuaaly quite common
May nangyari din ganyan sa gunshow
Sa gun club namin , I watched a newbie pick up a gun , clear it like so , then pull the trigger in front of me. Buti nalang hindi niya tinamaan yung suot kong adidas GridIrons , tagal ko pa naman inantay yun
Of course the common excuse is may sa demonyo yung baril
It has nothing to do w/ the 1911 pistol design , but unsafe gunhandling

9MX
12-07-2005, 23:04
Originally posted by Evan N. Payawal
Aren't you penalized if you do this on the range in competition?

dq agad!

i remember this incident happening to one BOG ;z

batangueno
12-07-2005, 23:14
Originally posted by Evan N. Payawal
That's why in countries like the US, most (if not all) police departments do not allow their officers 1911-type duty carry weapons.
(If there's any law enforcer from the US out there, please correct me if I'm wrong)
Duty carry firearms are supposed to be lawsuit resistant. It would be dificult to convince a jury that a 1911 carried in condition 1 is carried in the "safest possible way."
I know, I know, many shooters out there would argue that a maintained 1911 with all its safeties intact has proven to be very safe, but you see nowadays, you have to be "lawsuit-oriented" in everything you do.
I wonder if a locked and loaded Glock would be accepted by a jury as "safe?" Maybe. Many PDs issue it as a carry weapon.
Here in the Philippines, I even see officers carrying their 1911's condition 1 in speed holsters! Aren't those meant for range use only?

1911
- disengage grip safety
- disengage thumb safety
- pull trigger

Glock
- pull trigger

Which one do you think is safer?

Like what Allegra pointed out, it's not the gun but the person using the gun.

isuzu
12-08-2005, 00:37
That happened at Robinsons Place in Bacolod, too. A PNP officer surrendered his 1911 to the guards (at least, he followed policy) when he watched a movie (last full show).

After watching the movie, he claimed his gun. Witnesses said that he loaded his 1911, and tucked it in his waist with an inside holster. Then, BOOM!

Everbody froze, and he was the first one who said, "is anyone hit?"

A security guard then pointed to his legs, and said, "sir, you're bleeding." He then collapsed. The surgeon, who is also a shooter who attended to him said he was lucky. The bullet grazed his p**is, penetrated and exited one of his leg. The bullet also missed his artery.

Nakakahiya...

Taurus
12-08-2005, 01:19
Originally posted by Allegra
Who wants to bet , kinasa nya yung slide , and then released the mag , then pulled the trigger? :) Most if not all police officers I have seen packing 1911's carry the gun in condition one i.e., chamber loaded, hammer cocked and safety (probably) on. He probably just removed the magazine then pulled the trigger.

Anyway, let us take this opportunity to remind ourselves of the need for focus at all times when carrying a firearm. Even the most experienced shooters sometimes slip up because they were distracted or had taken the necessary precautions for granted. The possession of a firearm carries with it an enormous responsibility. Let us not take a "that would never happen to me" attitude; as this could blunt our outlook and could eventually be proven wrong in the worst possible way. In other words, ingat lang! (be careful).

Ersatz0906
12-08-2005, 01:37
Originally posted by Evan N. Payawal
Here in the Philippines, I even see officers carrying their 1911's condition 1 in speed holsters! Aren't those meant for range use only?

sir sorry ha but what does condition 1 means? any other conditions?

darwin25
12-08-2005, 01:41
na-archive na siguro yung thread ko na nagka-AD / ND ako. Couldn't find it anymore. The thread where I said I killed my VCD player and other BOGs sharerd their own AD / ND experiences.

Originally posted by Ersatz0906
sir sorry ha but what does condition 1 means? any other conditions?

condition 1 = Cocked & Locked.
condition 2 = 1 in chamber, Hammer down
condition 3 = no ammo in chamber, mag inserted.

I carry in condition 1 all the time. Funny though (or not), my Daewoo DP-51 was in condition 2 when I had a negligent discharge.

akula
12-08-2005, 02:05
Originally posted by darwin25
condition 1 = Cocked & Locked.
condition 2 = 1 in chamber, Hammer down
condition 3 = no ammo in chamber, mag inserted.

I carry in condition 1 all the time. Funny though (or not), my Daewoo DP-51 was in condition 2 when I had a negligent discharge. We have different definitions of "Conditions in IPSC".
In the older rule books -- before 2000A.D. :)
Condition 1 - mag inserted, round in chamber, hammer up, safety engaged.
Condition 2 - mag inserted, no round on chamber, hammer down, safety off
Condition 3 - mag NOT inserted -- somewhere on pouch or on table.

In the current 2004/2006 edition handgun rules, gun conditions are more explicitly described, rather than in codes. Maybe because each countries / regions have different ways of describing gun ready conditions.

Vault Keeper
12-08-2005, 19:49
Originally posted by Evan N. Payawal
I even see officers carrying their 1911's condition 1 in speed holsters! Aren't those meant for range use only?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/myuching/Pict0440.jpg

Dapat sa mga to binabatukan eh! Puro pogi points kasi eh!

jerrytrini
12-08-2005, 20:09
Yes may pulis dito sa forum.

Many US police departments auth their officers to carry 1911 variants.

MELBU
12-08-2005, 20:40
pulis ng pilipinas majority mga tanga...angna nila! hehehe

ppts799
12-08-2005, 21:21
Originally posted by akula
We have different definitions of "Conditions in IPSC".
In the older rule books -- before 2000A.D. :)
Condition 1 - mag inserted, round in chamber, hammer up, safety engaged.
Condition 2 - mag inserted, no round on chamber, hammer down, safety off
Condition 3 - mag NOT inserted -- somewhere on pouch or on table.

In the current 2004/2006 edition handgun rules, gun conditions are more explicitly described, rather than in codes. Maybe because each countries / regions have different ways of describing gun ready conditions.


OT: sir AKULA, nice to see you here again, long time no see.

bulm540
12-08-2005, 22:05
Originally posted by Taurus
Most if not all police officers I have seen packing 1911's carry the gun in condition one i.e., chamber loaded, hammer cocked and safety (probably) on. He probably just removed the magazine then pulled the trigger.

Anyway, let us take this opportunity to remind ourselves of the need for focus at all times when carrying a firearm. Even the most experienced shooters sometimes slip up because they were distracted or had taken the necessary precautions for granted. The possession of a firearm carries with it an enormous responsibility. Let us not take a "that would never happen to me" attitude; as this could blunt our outlook and could eventually be proven wrong in the worst possible way. In other words, ingat lang! (be careful).
double DITTO!!! It can happen to anyone. Here in Nashville ( 3 nights ago) the arresting officer accidentally shot and killed a suspect while they were cuffing the suspect( does anyone think this police was tanga?)

MELBU
12-08-2005, 22:19
Originally posted by bulm540
double DITTO!!! It can happen to anyone. Here in Nashville ( 3 nights ago) the arresting officer accidentally shot and killed a suspect while they were cuffing the suspect( does anyone think this police was tanga?)

I dont think thats tanga, maybe something hit his gun during the
arrest and it accidentally fired.

But the policeman who accidentally fired his gun while in the act
of surrendering it, (Condition 1 - Trigger finger in) now thats tanga hehehe

bulm540
12-08-2005, 22:28
Hmmmm....a glock 22.

3kings
12-08-2005, 22:39
accidents happen just like ***** happens

jlkwison
12-08-2005, 23:18
Unintentional firearm discharge...

http://www.thegunzone.com/video/mos-nd.mpg

Just right click and select Save As. Does not work for me if I just click it.

Here's an article of a supposed Accidental Discharge of a firearm by a DEA agent.

http://www.thegunzone.com/mos/dea-nd.html

darwin25
12-08-2005, 23:29
S*** really happens sometimes.

turn you speakers on. The guy cracks 2 accidental shots
http://www.stuntcook.com/index.php?i=12694

royal glockster
12-09-2005, 06:34
Accidental discharge is common among people who are not into shooting sports, civvies and cops alike or even soldiers at times. I have witnessed 2 incidents of AD in our office. A police officer (pasay police) redeemed his pistol at the security counter, inserted his mags, racked the slide (pointed downwards) then booom!!. Butas ang sapatos nya! (bagong shine pa naman). So, the guards immediately rushed him to our clinic, cop writhing in pain. Error: finger in, a no-no in basic firearm safety!!

Another incident; a marine soldier, deposited his firearm, released the mags, disengaged the thumb safety but before he could have emptied the chamber by racking the slide, it went "booom" because his finger was on the trigger. LUCKILY, no one was hurt as the bullet embedded into the thick wooden divider. Ganyan po talaga ang hindi sanay sa sport shooting, palaging naka trigger-in. Well, that's my observation, i could be wrong.

Allegra
12-09-2005, 06:39
Originally posted by royal glockster
Accidental discharge is common among people who are not into shooting sports, civvies and cops alike or even soldiers at times. I have witnessed 2 incidents of AD in our office. A police officer (pasay police) redeemed his pistol at the security counter, inserted his mags, racked the slide (pointed downwards) then booom!!. Butas ang sapatos nya! (bagong shine pa naman). So, the guards immediately rushed him to our clinic, cop writhing in pain. Error: finger in, a no-no in basic firearm safety!!

Another incident; a marine soldier, deposited his firearm, released the mags, disengaged the thumb safety but before he could have emptied the chamber by racking the slide, it went "booom" because his finger was on the trigger. LUCKILY, no one was hurt as the bullet embedded into the thick wooden divider. Ganyan po talaga ang hindi sanay sa sport shooting, palaging naka trigger-in. Well, that's my observation, i could be wrong.


uumm...6 of my 7 DQs were AD's because I had my finger inside the trigger guard sa mag changes hehe

royal glockster
12-09-2005, 06:44
Originally posted by 3kings
accidents happen just like ***** happens

i dont think it will just happen, if one exercises due diligence. Unless of course if the AD is "gun connected" and not "user related" problems.

Allegra
12-09-2005, 11:43
Originally posted by royal glockster
i dont think it will just happen, if one exercises due diligence. Unless of course if the AD is "gun connected" and not "user related" problems.


That would probably be true if one always shoots in the controlled environment of a firing range
Dilignce , presence of mind nawawala yan if your exhausted, wounded, stressed , in shock , or sa takot
I've AD'd kasi naghahabol ako ng oras sa match
If you handle guns a lot, nagaantay lang parati si murphy for a chance

tama ba english ko

Ersatz0906
12-09-2005, 20:35
Originally posted by Allegra
presence of mind nawawala yan if your exhausted, wounded, stressed , in shock , or sa takot


correct

theTactician
12-10-2005, 04:33
Originally posted by Allegra
Who wants to bet , kinasa nya yung slide , and then released the mag , then pulled the trigger? :)


yeah, i guess so. :-) most likely...hehehe.funny

Kevinr20
12-16-2005, 03:06
Ok I've read this whole thread and REALLY would like to know what "code" you guys seem to be typing in. I'm unaware of this insider I guess.

Allegra
12-16-2005, 06:09
We're working on a top secret govt project , hence the need for secrecy
Sorry , we can tell you but.....

horge
12-16-2005, 08:11
Hi Kevinr20! :)

The 'BoGs' here are wont to indulge in the Filipino language from time to time.
Here's a quick English translation of some of the prior posts:

maomanila started off with
"Stupid or careless or both. Good thing no one was hit dead-on"
going on to describe the ND in question.

Allegra later joined in
"who wants to bet, he racked the slide, and then released the mag, and then pulled th trigger?"

and again, Allegra
"You'll be disqualified for unsafe gunhandling
This is actually quite common
Something just like that happened at the gunshow.
At our gun club, I watched a newbie pick up a gun , clear it like so, then pull the trigger in front of me. Good thing he didn't hit my adidas GridIrons, ...I mean, I'd waited a long time for that pair!

Of course the common excuse is the Devil was in the pistol
It has nothing to do w/ the 1911 pistol design , but unsafe gunhandling"

9MX commented
"DQ on the spot!"

isuzu ended his post with
"Shameful"

Ersatz0906 asked
"Sorry, okay? ...but what does Condition 1 mean?

darwin25 then teed off with
"That thread of mine about my ND/AD must have been archived Couldn't find it anymore. The thread where I said I killed my VCD player and other BOGs sharerd their own AD / ND experiences."

Vault Keeper captiond his pic-post with
"These guys ought to be slapped behind the head! All they do is pose for the camera!"

jerrytrini confirmed that
"Yes, there's a policeman on this forum."

MELBU emitted
"Cops in the Philippines, majority are idiots ...*&^@&^*! hehehe"

Royal glockster later observed how
"A police officer (Pasay City police) redeemed his pistol at the security counter, inserted his mags, racked the slide (pointed downwards) then booom!!. His shoe sported a new hole (newly-shined at that). So, the guards immediately rushed him to our clinic, cop writhing in pain. Error: finger in, a no-no in basic firearm safety!!

Another incident; a marine soldier, deposited his firearm, released the mags, disengaged the thumb safety but before he could have emptied the chamber by racking the slide, it went "booom" because his finger was on the trigger. LUCKILY, no one was hurt as the bullet embedded into the thick wooden divider. That's just the way it is with those unaccustomed to sport shooting, always a finger on the trigger. Well, that's my observation, i could be wrong."

Allegra then opined that
"Diligence/presence of mind gets lost if you're exhausted, wounded, stressed , in shock , or out of fear.
I've AD'd trying to chase the clock in a match"


hth

Kevinr20
12-16-2005, 13:42
Thank you! I didn't realize so many of you were from the Phillipines or I would have realized it was their language.


Originally posted by horge
Hi Kevinr20! :)

The 'BoGs' here are wont to indulge in the Filipino language from time to time.
Here's a quick English translation of some of the prior posts:

maomanila started off with
"Stupid or careless or both. Good thing no one was hit dead-on"
going on to describe the ND in question.

Allegra later joined in
"who wants to bet, he racked the slide, and then released the mag, and then pulled th trigger?"

and again, Allegra
"You'll be disqualified for unsafe gunhandling
This is actually quite common
Something just like that happened at the gunshow.
At our gun club, I watched a newbie pick up a gun , clear it like so, then pull the trigger in front of me. Good thing he didn't hit my adidas GridIrons, ...I mean, I'd waited a long time for that pair!

Of course the common excuse is the Devil was in the pistol
It has nothing to do w/ the 1911 pistol design , but unsafe gunhandling"

9MX commented
"DQ on the spot!"

isuzu ended his post with
"Shameful"

Ersatz0906 asked
"Sorry, okay? ...but what does Condition 1 mean?

darwin25 then teed off with
"That thread of mine about my ND/AD must have been archived Couldn't find it anymore. The thread where I said I killed my VCD player and other BOGs sharerd their own AD / ND experiences."

Vault Keeper captiond his pic-post with
"These guys ought to be slapped behind the head! All they do is pose for the camera!"

jerrytrini confirmed that
"Yes, there's a policeman on this forum."

MELBU emitted
"Cops in the Philippines, majority are idiots ...*&^@&^*! hehehe"

Royal glockster later observed how
"A police officer (Pasay City police) redeemed his pistol at the security counter, inserted his mags, racked the slide (pointed downwards) then booom!!. His shoe sported a new hole (newly-shined at that). So, the guards immediately rushed him to our clinic, cop writhing in pain. Error: finger in, a no-no in basic firearm safety!!

Another incident; a marine soldier, deposited his firearm, released the mags, disengaged the thumb safety but before he could have emptied the chamber by racking the slide, it went "booom" because his finger was on the trigger. LUCKILY, no one was hurt as the bullet embedded into the thick wooden divider. That's just the way it is with those unaccustomed to sport shooting, always a finger on the trigger. Well, that's my observation, i could be wrong."

Allegra then opined that
"Diligence/presence of mind gets lost if you're exhausted, wounded, stressed , in shock , or out of fear.
I've AD'd trying to chase the clock in a match"


hth ~okie~ ~okie~ ~okie~

horge
12-16-2005, 17:19
Glad to have you here on BoG, Kevin :)
Any time you need help deciphering ;) , just holler!


horge