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Ersatz0906
12-08-2005, 06:09
hello mga sirs

just wanna ask what kind of ammo do you use for CCW or home defence. and why do you use that kind of ammo.

Thanks

Allegra
12-08-2005, 06:16
Armscor fmj 9mm for home defense etc
Mura eh

calcite
12-08-2005, 06:18
S&B JHP. Mahal ang iba e.

Django
12-08-2005, 06:19
Remington Golden Saber and Corbon.:)

Valor1
12-08-2005, 06:47
S&B. It's cheap and it works.

PMMA97
12-08-2005, 06:53
http://www.e-zbrane.sk/jpg/sab9luger.jpg

Cheap and effective.

Allegra
12-08-2005, 07:13
Madali ba arborin yang S&B?
Armscor nahihingi lang ah. Yan ang cheap at effective :)

i_am_infinity
12-08-2005, 08:17
9mm - Black Talon...kung meron ka makuha
40SW - Winchester Ranger...
45ACP - Federal Hydra shok!!! kung meron din black talon un na lang!!

batangueno
12-08-2005, 08:31
9mm - Corbon
40SW - PMC Eldorado Starfire

Takot ako gumamit ng fmj, baka kung saan tumagos.

MR_BIG
12-08-2005, 08:59
corbon 230gr+p JHP sometimes 165gr corbon powerball

vega
12-08-2005, 08:59
Originally posted by Allegra
Madali ba arborin yang S&B?
Armscor nahihingi lang ah. Yan ang cheap at effective :)
Pulis ka no?;)

Back there, Armscor.
Here, PMC. Mura lang and effective naman sa pistol.

vega

PMMA97
12-08-2005, 12:52
Originally posted by Allegra
Madali ba arborin yang S&B?
Armscor nahihingi lang ah. Yan ang cheap at effective :)

;f Basta libre. Yun ang pinaka cheap. ;f

isuzu
12-08-2005, 18:29
for .45 ACP, 230 gr Federal Hydra Shok. The record of 100% one shot stop for 5 in. barrel and 94% one shot stop for mixed barrel length hasn't been beaten yet. The stats came from mid-90s Handguns Magazine.

for 9mm, it's a choice between 115 gr Cor-bon, 124 gr Hydra Shok (rumored to be the issued ammo of the US Secret Service), and 124 gr Golden Saber. The 147 gr Supreme SXT/T series is also a good choice.

I would like to steer away from the 9mm Cor-bons. Their bullet profile makes them unreliable at times.

Did I forget the IMI ammo? They're truly reliable.

mc_oliver
12-08-2005, 21:02
40 cal Hydra-Extreme CPJB*

*copper-plated Judge brew ;f;f

darwin25
12-08-2005, 21:13
for my .45 cal, Tactical Edge loaded with 200gr of Hornady XTP heads. P30/pop

9mm, 115 gr. Silver Bullets(Silvertip profile) by Twin Pines. Wide mouthed but feeds flawlessly in my guns. P18/pop. Used to be S&B 115 gr.

.22 magnum, Remington Hiigh Velocity 40 grain Hollowpoints.

for my dad's Feg .380, NGA Eliminator +p 60 grains. Wadcutter profile but with full caliber hollow cavity with plastic nosecap to assist feeding. It may not expand but it will at least create a full caliber hole and will cut a lot of arteries. Good penetrator too.

For .38 snub that I used to own, NGA Eliminators +p 83 grains. I just take the nose cap off. Ammolab test shows that it penetrated 12 inches of gelatin with good weight retention. Gun used is a S&W snub

jundeleon
12-08-2005, 21:57
Corbon 185 grain +P hollowpoints

MAJINKONG
12-08-2005, 22:06
185gr Hornady Xtp, 165gr powerball.. locally avail and dnd rpa rounds.. kc libre.. for my commader xse..

tima1
12-08-2005, 22:25
9mm - 147gr. Golden Sabers
.45 - 200gr. Corbon
5.56 - 55gr. WCC

Will try to load 9mm 124gr Gold Dot to 1200fps and .45 200gr Gold Dot to 1050fps.

Alexii
12-08-2005, 22:59
9mm - 147gr JHP Fiocchi

45ACP - Armscor 230gr FMJ

Mang Danny
12-09-2005, 13:13
Soft point 7.62 X 39 ;f

isuzu
12-09-2005, 18:03
Originally posted by Mang Danny
Soft point 7.62 X 39 ;f

Masakit yan! ;f ;L

clark_kent
12-09-2005, 19:13
Golden Saber 124gr for my 9mm
hydra shok for my .40

Ersatz0906
12-09-2005, 21:04
Originally posted by darwin25
NGA Eliminator +p 60 grains. Wadcutter profile but with full caliber hollow cavity with plastic nosecap to assist feeding. It may not expand but it will at least create a full caliber hole and will cut a lot of arteries. Good penetrator too.


curious lng po sa eliminator, bakit plastic? saw it sa twin pines for caliber 40 60pesos each, pwede mo matangal yung plastic cap with your fingers, is it good reliable round? hehe sori ha kasi first time ko nakita na half nang bullet is plastic e.

the only available rounds ngayon dito for the .40 is the armscore, eliminator at yung reloads, wala pa daw stock na ibang brand sabi nang twinpines, at yung Nashe pinakwaw daw nang NBI lahat na bala na caliber .40 so wala din stock ngayon

toxic
12-09-2005, 23:55
Any hollow point will do for me , pagiipunan kahit mahal bihira namang iputok .

isuzu
12-09-2005, 23:56
The plastic tip is there to aid in feeding for automatics. If you remove the plastic tip, the bullet looks just plain weird.

atmarcella
12-10-2005, 08:25
the story of the NGA eliminator:

During the Apartheid years South Africa was under a severe United Nations arms embargo. With a bush war being fought on the borders, and with urban terrorism plaguing the cities, the South Africans were forced to create a substantial domestic arms industry producing everything from the G5 artillery cannon to the Rooivalk Attack Helicopter. Today, with President Mandela governing, terrorism is, thankfully, no longer the problem. However, crime is. South Africa is now the "murder capital of the World". Rape, car-jacking and burglary, are pandemic too. The security industry is booming, houses are fortified and armed-response patrols prowl the suburbs. Self defence is a prime topic of conversation. Fortunately, concealed-carry licences are easy to obtain, making South Africa the most heavily armed society in the World. In response to this demand several excellent handguns have been developed, notably the "ADP", designed by Alex Du Plessis to combine features of the H&K P7 with the Glock. This very compact weapon is marketed in the US by Heritage Arms of Florida, as the Stealth. Ammunition too has been produced domestically, and in this article we are going to examine the development of the more exotic types.



HIGH SPEED PERFORMANCE

Several years ago the French government-owned arms company SFM created a unique munition specifically for police use. Named "THV" from the French Tres Haute Vitesse ("very high speed"), it certainly lives up to its name! The 9mm version clocks a true 2600fps from a 4" barrel. The THV even looks exotic, with its' distinctive reverse-ogive spire configuration. On first sight you would think that it wouldn't feed in autos, but it works well, even in sub-guns on full auto.

The shape, combined with the high velocity, gives the THV enormous trauma potential. The concave ogive acts rather like a lens to focus shock at 90 to the track of the bullet. There are conflicting theories on the effectiveness of this mechanism, but theories are only interesting to theoreticians. What concerns the end-user is reality, does it work on the street? As we will see below, those currently using THV are happy will its' performance.

The bullet usually stays in the body, so over-penetration is not a concern. The figure usually quoted is 12" of tissue, but I know of a case where the bad guy was shot in the base of the throat and the bullet didn't exit. Amazingly though, the THV will penetrate armour. It doesn't exit flesh but will blast through Level 2 kevlar! Even more amazing it was invented by the French! (Just joking). I once demonstrated THV to a bodyguard class by placing a kevlar panel on an earth bank and shooting with a 9mm. As expected the 45gr brass bullet whizzed right through the vest, and I dug into the earth to recover the bullet to show the class. Well I got my arm in up to my shoulder and never reached that bullet!

Operators with a high risk of weapons disarm tend to be wary of THV. It makes sense to carry ammo which will be stopped by your own vest. Some guys, however, carry the round in a backup magazine, so as to have a high-penetration option available.

I was on a bodyguard contract in South Africa in the mid-eighties and wandered into a Cape Town gunshop. Talk quickly turned to ammo. This was at the height of the UN embargo and imported high-performance ammo was rare and expensive. I mentioned THV and took a round from my backup mag to show the guys. The shop owner asked if he could buy a round and, as I had plenty, I gave him a few for free. After discussions with his gunsmith he told me he could copy the THV and would I mind. Not owning stock in the French arms industry I told him to go ahead, as long as I got some free samples. Sure enough on my next visit THV bullets were on sale all over South Africa. Although sold to the general public as reloading components the South African Police (SAP) contracted with a local ammo manufacturer for fully loaded cartridges to be issued to some of their units. Over the years this domestic THV proved popular with such police groups as the Internal Stability Unit (ISU). The bullets are still on sale, and if you are interested in THV South Africa is the place to get it because the French stopped making it several years ago.



THV MODIFIED

As the result of discussions between the SAP and the government-owned arms company PMP an "upgraded" round was developed. The SAP liked the performance of the THV, but because they used a variety of pistols, some quite old, they needed enhanced reliability. Andre Van Dyke, a R&D specialist with PMP, came up with the concept of a plastic nose cap over the bullet. This new round was called the "MONAD", {from MONsieur/Andre van Dyke}. Used primarily by the police Special Task Force (TAC MAG), and the military Special Ops Teams (SPEC MAG), it is a very rare item.

When Andre Van Dyke left PMP he joined Ivan Monsieur in forming New Generation Ammunition Co (NGA). They began working on a new special purpose bullet, and part of their inspiration came from Germany.



BAT

Many readers may have heard of BAT ammunition, but I wonder how many realise that it wasn't developed primarily for shooting people? The German police experienced numerous failures to kill escaped bulls/cows with duty 9mm ammunition. German police don't issue shotguns, and the patrol officers carry 9mm pistols, and possibly a 9mm sub-gun. They wanted to develop a "universal" round which would work on anything, from humanely destroying cats after a road accident, to large mammals. This would be preferable to training/carrying a variety of weapons, from sub-calibres to rifles.

GECO (a division of Dynamit Nobel) produced the BLITZ AKTION TRAUMA ("Fast incapacitation") round. Marketed in the US as the BAT, it is known in German police use as Aktion-ein. The bullet is copper, with a PE plastic nose-cap. This nosecap maintains the profile of a regular FMJ round, and thus feeds well through auto/semi-auto actions. A small hole down the centre of the bullet vents gasses upon ignition. The cap blasts off before the bullet leaves the case, and being asymmetrical, spins off and falls to the ground. Without the cap the bullet has an aggressive hollow point and expands reliably.

The Germans consider BAT conforms to the Geneva/Hague Conventions. Hollow point ammunition is illegal in Germany, even for the police, but BAT is permitted. Thus it may be a good choice for those who live in places like Canada and New Jersey where hollow points are banned. (Check out the legalities thoroughly)

Regular patrol officers issued BAT only for special cases. SWAT Teams, known as Spezial Einsatz Kommando (SEK) can use it as their issue load.

The pure copper BAT bullet weighs 86gr, and goes at 1400 fps from a pistol. It shoots to different points of aim in different pistols, and will shoot to a different point of aim than the regular police duty FMJ load. The MP-5 had to be modified to suit the BAT pressure curve.

Despite these drawbacks the BAT had one positive advantage...it worked. It produced an impressive wound channel, and the humans shot with it were generally incapacitated.

Inspired by the plastic nosecap and the copper bullet of the BAT, and the shock-generating potential of the THV, Van Dyke and Monsieur set out to create a totally new round, specifically for close-range defensive combat.



THE ELIMINATOR

What they came up with was THE ELIMINATOR. On first sight it appears to be a convention FMJ with a red tip. Looking closer you notice that the red tip is plastic. If you prise the cap off you see that the bullet resembles a wadcutter, but with a distinct cutting rim, concave dish and a central projecting button. This complex shape was arrived at after lengthy calculation and trial. Like the THV it produces shock waves; unlike the THV it expands. Like the BAT it is made of copper; unlike the BAT it is nickel plated to reduce barrel fouling.

In 9mm the 78gr bullet matches the 1400 fps of the BAT. It will not penetrate a Level iia Kevlar

vest. Like THV and BAT the Eliminator usually stays in the torso, so over-penetration is not a concern. This is of special interest to VIP Close Protection Teams, who envisage ammo going through the bad guy and hitting the VIP. Not a good way to earn your Rolex!

The plastic nosecap assists feeding through auto actions, or into a revolver chambers from a speedloader. Originally the ELIMINATOR nosecaps performed like the BAT, they exited the bore and spun off. This could be a problem. One government agency chronographed the BAT and noticed that the nosecap has penetrated linoleum baffles around the equipment. The implications in a surgical-shooting situation were enough to disqualify the BAT from use with the hostage-rescue agency. The current Eliminator cap disintegrates completely about 12" from the muzzle.

There can't be many ammo manufacturers who have used their products for real life defence. Ivan Monsieur, who is a police reservist, was in a confrontation with two armed robbers. After taking an AK-47 round Ivan returned fire and cancelled the two bad guys. One was hit between the eyes and both temples blew out! Talking with various police officers, bodyguards and civilian shooters the word on the street is that Eliminator works. It feeds in all types of pistols and it does the job if you do yours, and you can ask no more of a bullet.

Special Purpose ammunition, is, by definition, tailored to a specific task. Some types work impressively on an unprotected target, but display poor tactical barricade penetration. Murphy's' Law says that you will find yourself in the very situation that your ammo wasn't designed for! Eliminator is less limited than most exotic rounds, lacking only long-range capability. It penetrates car windshields, sheet steel and other likely barriers. NGA ELIMINATOR is now available in the USA.



UPDATE

Since I first wrote this article, in 1997, there have been some changes. South African police have had advisors from other countries, introducing such wonders as community policing. Among the changes, SAP are now not allowed hollow-points, and must carry FMJ ball ammo. This is in contrast to the situation in most places where original restrictions on ammo have been relaxed, so that the cops can carry rounds that incapacitate, without the danger of over penetration. The Special Task Force, however, still carry their favourite loads.

As a final point, the study of ammunition is interesting, but is less important than Mindset, Tactics and Training. And as my old mate Evan Marshall said "After studying the effects of ammunition for all these years, my best advice is four in the face"





ABOUT THE AUTHOR:

Dennis Martin trains VIP Close-protection Teams internationally. He can be contacted at: RealityCheckUK@Hotmail.com



ADDRESSES

ELIMINATOR: Details of US dealers may be obtained through NEW GENERATION AMMUNITION Co, PO BOX 9207, HENNOPSMEER 0046, REPUBLIC of SOUTH AFRICA. Phone +27-12-666-8983



DENNIS MARTIN, 1997/2002





BACK TO MAIN PAGE
SPECIAL PURPOSE AMMO IN SOUTH AFRICA

By

DENNIS MARTIN

conclusion:

okay sya pag short range engagement...pag long range medyo di sya accurate:) ;)

Ersatz0906
12-11-2005, 01:54
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/THV.htm

also found this about diff ammo types

http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~ojveal/cyberpunk/gizmo/ammo.htm#Heading25

cebuboy
12-11-2005, 11:04
38 special - 125gr golden saber+p remington or 158gr lhp+p federal
9mm - 115gr jhp+p corbon or 115gr jhp+p+ federal
45 acp - 230gr hydrashok or 200 gr xtp+p hornady
12ga - winchester 00bk or armscor 00bk
5.56 - all m193 works well:)
22lr - cci stingers

Ersatz0906
12-12-2005, 00:35
Have someone tried this bullet?

H.E.A.T. Dart Tips 145 grains
distributed by twin pines
cost 100pesos each

also the

Talisman (bullets of Magic and Power) ;b agimat
Copper Jacketed Hollow Points
also distributed by twin pines
cost 19 pesos each

buy it kanina kasi walang other .40 bullets e.

click it

cebuboy
12-12-2005, 04:40
hehe tried the silver tipped bullets for .38 special nice expansion from a taurus snubby:) wonder if it would really work on aswangs;f

nrmcolt
12-12-2005, 07:22
Copper Jacketed Hollow Points
Sinubukan ko ganyan pero .45cal sa isang dangkal na kapal na newspaper(babad sa tubig overnight), the bullet expanded alright but the jacket separated from the lead core.;Q

;f ;c

Ersatz0906
12-12-2005, 09:17
Originally posted by nrmcolt
Sinubukan ko ganyan pero .45cal sa isang dangkal na kapal na newspaper(babad sa tubig overnight), the bullet expanded alright but the jacket separated from the lead core.;Q

;f ;c

the newspaper catch the bullets? wanna try that how thick is the newspaper? did you hang the wet newspaper? with what?

also is it bad if the jacket separated from the lead core?

thanks for the info

horge
12-12-2005, 15:19
Ersatz,
JHP's don't penetrate as deep as FMJ's, right?
So, if you further have jacket separation, you get even less penetration --parang frangible projectile-- than you would otherwise.

It depends, really: if the penetration is still good, it might be better to get a really complicated wound channel (all those bits and pieces slicing through), but since JHP's are ballistically engineered to avoid overpenetration, the likelihood is an ugly wound that is too shallow to stop an assailant.

Cebuboy,

I tried the Silver Bullet in .380
I still have a box around here somewhere. The manufacturer (Twin Pines) claims the jacket actually does contain silver ---I'm guessing an extremely miniscule amount if any. Very stout recoil, and impressive velocity out of the 3.5" barrel of a BERSA Thunder 380. I posted about it some time ago, but the thread seems to have been purged.

migx
01-03-2010, 05:54
Wow may noypi thread pala dito hehe, try Magtech mga sirs its cheaper than armscor fmj rounds if you buy them in the distributor rather than reseller.

PMMA97
01-03-2010, 06:32
Ayus! Noong 2005 yata wala pang Magtech sa Pinas?

Kaiser Soze
01-03-2010, 07:51
For Armscor users:

Have you ever experienced having weird ammo from them? I used some at their range in MCS, and some of them were really hotloaded (I even compared them to my +P ammo, and surprisingly their recoil and muzzle blast was equal to if not greater than the +P!) and then another box wasn't as powerful. It makes me kind of nervous using them again, since minsan malakas, minsan mahina.

Kaiser Soze
01-03-2010, 08:00
Have someone tried this bullet?

H.E.A.T. Dart Tips 145 grains
distributed by twin pines
cost 100pesos each

also the

Talisman (bullets of Magic and Power) ;b agimat
Copper Jacketed Hollow Points
also distributed by twin pines
cost 19 pesos each

buy it kanina kasi walang other .40 bullets e.

click it

I tried the Silver Bullets in .45 ACP and .380

Not bad, accurate naman. I shot through a telephone directory, and it made an impressive exit hole. I still stick to my Golden Sabers and Corbons though.

zorkd
01-03-2010, 08:38
i get reloads that jam, sometimes weak loads.

still cycles though.


my glock 26 doesn't group as well with their 115gr fmjs (compared to rem gs 147gr) sa g26 mo ok naman?

MAJINKONG
01-03-2010, 09:11
wow... parang ghost thread... 2005 pa nga ito

Glock_19_9x19
01-03-2010, 10:44
9mm - Magtech Guardian Gold JHP

jimbullet
01-04-2010, 02:16
Winchester used to have marketed silvertip JHP's and from a few recovered projectiles from a 180 gr 45acp silvertip ammo has shown the jacket not separating from the lead core. Shot it through coconut tree, and one recovered from a wall.

Win Silvertips have its lead core connecting to its jacket at the base of the projectile unlike traditional JHP's where the lead is seen from the nose of the bullet where copper jacket meets.

The twinpines ammo I believe is a copy of this and highly unlikely that there is real 100% silver content.

snair
01-04-2010, 02:30
Federal Tactical

atmarcella
01-04-2010, 02:56
its alive!!!!!!!

atmarcella
01-04-2010, 02:57
i really like this,

"After studying the effects of ammunition for all these years, my best advice is four in the face"

Glock-it-to-me
01-04-2010, 04:10
.38 Special 125gr Speer Gold Dots
.357 SIG 115gr JHP CorBon
.357 Magnum 125gr Speer Gold Dots
.40 S&W 165gr Winchester Ranger SXT
.45 ACP 230gr Federal Hydra-Shok
.25 Auto 45gr Winchester Super-X Expanding point
.223 Remington 69gr Black Hills Matchking Hollowpoints - backed up Lake City M855 green tipped 62gr penetrators
Various shot gun rounds

adenine
01-04-2010, 10:35
9mm - 147 grain Golden Sabers
.45 - 185 grain Golden Sabers
5.56 - 55 grain WCC

adenine
01-04-2010, 10:39
for armscor users:

Have you ever experienced having weird ammo from them? I used some at their range in mcs, and some of them were really hotloaded (i even compared them to my +p ammo, and surprisingly their recoil and muzzle blast was equal to if not greater than the +p!) and then another box wasn't as powerful. It makes me kind of nervous using them again, since minsan malakas, minsan mahina.

+1.....

Kaiser Soze
01-04-2010, 17:51
i get reloads that jam, sometimes weak loads.

still cycles though.


my glock 26 doesn't group as well with their 115gr fmjs (compared to rem gs 147gr) sa g26 mo ok naman?

It cycles as well, but like you said, it doesn't really group well.

atmarcella
01-05-2010, 02:53
last gunshow, or the one before, i found some really good 40sw ammo at stronghand, it was winchester 155gr gold partition, i bought some and researched it and was surprised at its performance. the gold partition design was first thought of in rifle bullets, hunters were not getting sufficient penetration from their hollow point bullets, they were fragmenting, but they also wanted expansion, so they put a wall in the middle of the bullet, and eureka!

btw, it flies at 1200fps.

the a power factor of 186. compared to corbons 182.