NYPD and Kahrs

[Sgt127]

Recently there was some talk of the NYPD dropping Kahr from the approved list because of accelerated wear. Anybody ever get any details on that? I've never had a problem with my Kahrs in 9mm, so, that seems a little strange based on my knowledge of how many rounds I fire and how many rounds the average cop fires in a year.

[warmrain]

I seriously doubt that this is a reality in the stainless Kahrs. Even my little MK9 has had thousands through it with NO sign of any wear.

[Sgt127]

Update

Just got off the phone with FTS and the latest word is that the Kahrs are becoming problematic. They're not aging well with heavy use.

They also confirmed the addition of the Sig P 239 to the list of authorized off-duty pistols.

That was from Seanmac45 in another thread a few weeks ago....Since ALL NYPD Kahrs are stainless 9mm's, I can't help but wonder whats up.....

[warmrain]

I've got an 8 yr. old MK9 and with thousands of rounds of range and +p ammo; not to mention all the training and dirt and crap... I mean mags dropped in the sand and gravel and dirt and wet and rain...

Something in Demark...

I'm totally non-plused as to how this could be so...

I just makes you kinda wonder what the next polymer 9mm is that they're going to select, based on what criteria.

[BackDraft]

I have a older E9 that has well over 10,000 rounds out of it just this year. Besides normal cleaning I change the recoil spring out around every 3,000 rounds, but I don't use the 20lb factory spring I am using the 23 Wolffe spring. Now this gun has fired 200 rounds of Winchester White box only, about 2,000 rounds +P Gold Dot,Federal EFMJ & HST. The rest are Federal +P+ HyrdoShocks. I hate to say it but I think NYPD might be having problems due to lack of lube and maintaince. Kahrs are wet guns and seems like everybody has gotten spoiled by Glocks being almost a dry gun. Thats just my opinion

[harrydog]

I have to agree with BackDraft and warmrain - I don't understand how they could be having wear problems with these guns unless they never maintain them. I know Kahr has its share of problem guns but the steel versions have always been extremely reliable.
I'd like to know exactly what is wearing out on them.

[Sgt127]

It doesn't make sense to me either. I had over 2000 rounds through a MK9 before I traded it off for a PM9 that has about 2000 rounds through it. Neither of the Kahrs had any problems, except the PM9 didn't like +P+...it beat up the barrel hood. The MK9 has several hundred rounds of Federal 9BP +P+...never a burp. As an off duty gun, I switched to a Sig P239 only because my Dept supplies .40 ammo for off duty/practice ammo, but not 9mm. A friend of mine bought a PM40, it didn't work very well after several trips back to Kahr and I could not find a K40 locally...So, I got the Sig.

[warmrain]

Originally posted by Sgt127
...As an off duty gun, I switched to a Sig P239 only because my Dept supplies .40 ammo for off duty/practice ammo, but not 9mm. A friend of mine bought a PM40, it didn't work very well after several trips back to Kahr and I could not find a K40 locally...So, I got the Sig.
Kahr couldn't make my PM40 reliably feed off the top of any magazine and eventually offered to replace it. I requested they replace it wit a PM9 and that was a good decision for me.

[mingomike]

It sounds like Kahr didn't kiss someones rear correctly, but who cares. Usually anything to do with NY is usually screwed up.

[PVanCleave]

I have several 40 calibur Kahrs - Main gun is a K40 - same basic frame, etc. as a 9, but much more punishing. I have shot thousands of rounds through it and no signs of wear.

I agree that this is probably political.

[kahrcarrier]

As an owner of steel framed Kahrs, I, too, have a very hard time buying into this story.
I cannot imagine the NYPD putting the off-duty approved Kahr K9s through a lot of "heavy use."
I cannot imagine a steel frame Kahr not withstanding this so-called "heavy use." They are robust to say the least.

Somebody is gonna have to show me one of these broken down and worn out steel pistols from New Yawk. And I ain't even from Missouri....

[BackDraft]

Originally posted by kahrcarrier
As an owner of steel framed Kahrs, I, too, have a very hard time buying into this story.
I cannot imagine the NYPD putting the off-duty approved Kahr K9s through a lot of "heavy use."
I cannot imagine a steel frame Kahr not withstanding this so-called "heavy use." They are robust to say the least.

Somebody is gonna have to show me one of these broken down and worn out steel pistols from New Yawk. And I ain't even from Missouri.... ^6

[harrydog]

Originally posted by kahrcarrier
As an owner of steel framed Kahrs, I, too, have a very hard time buying into this story.
I cannot imagine the NYPD putting the off-duty approved Kahr K9s through a lot of "heavy use."
I cannot imagine a steel frame Kahr not withstanding this so-called "heavy use." They are robust to say the least.

Somebody is gonna have to show me one of these broken down and worn out steel pistols from New Yawk. And I ain't even from Missouri....
Very well stated!
^c ^c

[SouthpawShootr]

Originally posted by harrydog
I have to agree with BackDraft and warmrain - I don't understand how they could be having wear problems with these guns unless they never maintain them.

Don't forget these are the people who had reliability problems with G19s.;Q

My understanding is that these are on a list of guns approved for off-duty carry. Does NYPD buy these guns? Precious few depts supply their officers with off-duty carry guns. If they don't, why would they care about accelerated wear? Something very strange here.

[whtroyer]

I have a MK9 with about 2000 rounds and it cracked a slide after 500 rounds. I know of four other mk9's that have also cracked slides. After this occurred, I looked more into Kahr construction and found the stainless steel guns have frames cast from 420 stainless and slides machined from 321 stainless. Neither is an especially strong alloy. The older steel guns were much stronger. Kahr appears to be cutting costs with materials and I wonder if this is part of the problem. For example, the frames Kahr machine for the NAA .380 use a MUCH stronger 17-4ph (630) stainless.

[PVanCleave]

Originally posted by whtroyer
I have a MK9 with about 2000 rounds and it cracked a slide after about 500 rounds. I know about four other mk9's that have also cracked slides. After this occurred, I looked more into Kahr construction and found the stainless steel guns have frames cast from 420 stainless and slides machined from 321 stainless. Neither is an especially strong alloy. The older steel guns were much stronger. Kahr appears to be cutting costs with materials and I wonder if this is part of the problem. For example, the frames Kahr cast for the NAA .380 are a MUCH stronger 17-4ph (630) stainles.

Where exactly did the slide crack?

[kantstudien]

Remember, NYPD invented its own "brand" of malfunction never before seen in Glock 19s, so this should not be surprising. ;g

Seriously, maybe the quality control has gone downhill so much that the Kahrs are not cutting it. Looking at some pics of people's new guns, I would not be surprised.

[whtroyer]

Originally posted by PVanCleave
Where exactly did the slide crack?


They all crack at the same place: at the front face of the slide - vertically between the guide rod opening and barrel opening.

[harrydog]

Originally posted by whtroyer
I have a MK9 with about 2000 rounds and it cracked a slide after 500 rounds. I know of four other mk9's that have also cracked slides. After this occurred, I looked more into Kahr construction and found the stainless steel guns have frames cast from 420 stainless and slides machined from 321 stainless. Neither is an especially strong alloy. The older steel guns were much stronger. Kahr appears to be cutting costs with materials and I wonder if this is part of the problem. For example, the frames Kahr machine for the NAA .380 use a MUCH stronger 17-4ph (630) stainless.
Where did you get your information on the types of steel that Kahr uses? A long time ago I had asked Kahr about the material used for their frames. I think they did tell me it was 420 stainless. If so, that's not a bad thing. 420 is stronger than the more commonly used 410, which is what caspian uses for their cast frames, and those are known to be extremely durable. I've never heard of a Kahr frame breaking.
As for the slides, I highly doubt they are made from 321 stainless. It's not an appropriate material for that application.
Please let me know where you got that information.
http://www.kahr.com/vg_slidepage.html

[whtroyer]

Originally posted by harrydog
Where did you get your information on the types of steel that Kahr uses? A long time ago I had asked Kahr about the material used for their frames. I think they did tell me it was 420 stainless. If so, that's not a bad thing. 420 is stronger than the more commonly used 410, which is what caspian uses for their cast frames, and those are known to be extremely durable. I've never heard of a Kahr frame breaking.

As for the slides, I highly doubt they are made from 321 stainless. It's not an appropriate material for that application.
Please let me know where you got that information.
http://www.kahr.com/vg_slidepage.html


The information on 420 stainless steel frame castings came from Kahr. 420 is about 15% stronger than 410 stainless. 420 is an OK alloy for guns but not great. 415, as used by some companies would be much better as would 17-4ph which is also strong but has less impact strength than 415. Either alloy is twice as strong as 420. The information on 321 stainless, which I also thought was strange, was located on the Kahr website in one of their review articles. I like the info you provided about 416 much better!

Small handguns may seem heavy for their size but they don't have as much material in their frames and slides as larger handguns. They need to use better materials because they take a relatively heavy beating in comparison. A large handgun may last 100,000 rounds while a smaller handgun like Kahr may only be good for 20,000 rounds (Kahr would only say 20,000 perhaps 30,000).

I have never heard of a Kahr frame breaking either but the slides do break. Regardless, the original steel guns (4140 Cr-Mo Alloy Steel) are probably more durable than the latest stainless guns (more steel and stronger steel). Kahr must also think the latest guns are more problematic or they would have kept their limited lifetime warranty. Lets not get too far off topic. The original post was discussing the reason Kahr may be dropped from the NYPD approved list.

EDIT- Looks like the materials used in the stainless Kahrs have changed over the years (at least there is considerably different information published about them). I found this old press release written when the MK9 was first introduced. The press release said the slides were machined from 421 bar stock while the review on the Kahr site stated the slides were machined from 321 bar stock. The latest MK9's do use 420 for the frames and 416 for the slides:

"Kahr is having Lothar Walther button broach the 3" "match" barrels with polygonal rifling having a 1:10" right-hand twist. The frame is investment cast 416 stainless steel while the stainless slide is CNC machined from 421 bar stock. Production guns will be available only in stainless, though there will be a limited run of 400 two-tone guns having the same frame with a 4130 chrome-moly slide finished in Birdsong Black T."

[GLK19]

FYI

Kahr is in real trouble with th NYPD , FTS have essentially put them on probation for the following reasons :

1. Many of the pistols trigger pulls are taking a set down as low 4-5 lbs from its factory set.

2. Many parts breakages and defects in recent years

3. New guns are coming in with .40 caliber parts in the 9mm pistols and quality control has visibly suffered in recent years.

My understanding is Kahr is hustling to develop a new trigger spring and addressing issues with NYPD

hope this helps

[BackDraft]

Originally posted by GLK19
FYI

Kahr is in real trouble with th NYPD , FTS have essentially put them on probation for the following reasons :

1. Many of the pistols trigger pulls are taking a set down as low 4-5 lbs from its factory set.

2. Many parts breakages and defects in recent years

3. New guns are coming in with .40 caliber parts in the 9mm pistols and quality control has visibly suffered in recent years.

My understanding is Kahr is hustling to develop a new trigger spring and addressing issues with NYPD

hope this helps
As far as the striker spring I have found that MidWay has an extra power spring and it increased my trigger to 8.67lbs from the factory 4.25lbs after using it it settled to 7.5lbs. I also use the 23lb recoil spring and use extra power mag springs. I have had no problems with my E9. I normally change the recoil spring at 3000 rounds and the striker & mag springs were changed at 5000 rounds. I now have over 15,000 rounds thru it and in the process of changing all the springs and replacing the extra power springs with just new ones. Wolffe Gunsprings is who makes them for MidWay.Just thought I put that information out.

[kahrcarrier]

Somebody please post some detailed pics of these broken, steel frame Kahrs.
Thank you.

[Romadoc]

I sent my MK9 back to Kahr due to a mag that was stuck and would't come out. I then received a call from Stefan who told me they had also replaced the cracked slide. I had never seen the crack during any of the cleaning sessions.