+P not advisable? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Ersatz0906
12-12-2005, 00:09
I went kanina sa Twinpines looking for a good ammo .40, all they have is dart tips, talisman, armscore and Eliminator +P.

so I ask the salelady that I want to buy the eliminator for my G27 (I bought my G27 in that store also) But she said its not good to use +P on Glocks because daw G barrels might not handle the +P bullets and it will crack. is this true?

the salelady is from Manila, sabi, yung daw ang advice nang Manila twinpines sa kanila.

Part of me saying G barrel can handle the loads but just wanna make sure...

cznayr
12-12-2005, 00:19
Most gun officianados will say that glocks can't handle +P ammo primarily because the barrel of the glock for .40 and above calibers are not that supported in the 6 o'clock position or so they say. I do not know any instance here where a kB has resulted from using +p ammo on glocks here but in the states most gun slingers will advise against it as they have documented KBs from +p ammo on glocks .40 and above.

Mga BOGs any disclaimer to this?

mc_oliver
12-12-2005, 00:32
Even if kaya ng glock yung +P ammo, I doubt I'd want to shoot something of that power through a G27's small size. It's hard enough to control with factory loadings. Unless of course, yung practice loads ko eh puro +P's. ;)

horge
12-12-2005, 02:24
I have zero experience with shooting the caliber, but
the preponderance of KB reports on the internet involving
Glock .40S&W kaBooms ([b]at standard pressure![b]) would
give me some pause.

Ersatz, based on what I've read it isn't so much that
the barrel or chamber will deform, but that the cartridge casewall
will rupture where it isn't supported by the chamber, sending
hot gases elsewhere and damaging the (polymer) pistol frame.

.40S&W chamber-support comparison:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Gixerman1000/40SWcasesupport.jpg

Am I mistaken in the impression that .40S&W standard-pressure
is itself already a 'high pressure' round, using 9mm Parabellum
as a reference point?

cebuboy
12-12-2005, 03:48
yup the .40sw in its standard loading is a high pressure round, have not yet come accross a .40sw ammo marked +p. i think it is not safe to get any hotter than the standard loading, most of the pistols in that caliber are desinged around the 9mm. the manufacturers just stuck in a barrel with a bigger hole:)

toxic
12-12-2005, 05:16
I heared from most shooters that "majority of KB's happen in 40 cal. overload daw ng powder is it true?

For Glocks and other pistol i would read the manual first if the barrel can take +P or +P+ ..Manufactures usually put " not suitable for +P or +P+" for one simple reason "safety" and for the validity of its warranty usually a year.
Manufacturers im sure had performed several or even more test on all available rounds out there to thier pistol , so why gamble..Be safe man.

Its good twin pines warn you of the +P , i salute them Big time coz some stores wont give such warning , simply they just want to make a sale and dont care if you got hurt or hurt someone.

Ersatz0906
12-12-2005, 08:11
Originally posted by toxic
I heared from most shooters that "majority of KB's happen in 40 cal. overload daw ng powder is it true?

not sure but I think its true.

Originally posted by toxic

Its good twin pines warn you of the +P , i salute them Big time coz some stores wont give such warning , simply they just want to make a sale and dont care if you got hurt or hurt someone. [/B]

yup twin pines is a good gun store, they friendly and helpful. also pretty hehe ;f

atmarcella
12-12-2005, 08:18
i beg to disagree with most of you;f ...with a smile yan ha, anyway, first of all there is no such thing as a +p or +p+ in .40s&w, the most powerful .40 bullet i know is made by doubletap, owned by mike mcnett, also a GT member, it has a power factor of like 210, 200grains of XTP at 1050fps versus my corbons PF of 178, 135grains at 1325fps.

most of the kb's i have read about happened using reloaded ammo, there was a time when it happened to a lot of federal factory loaded ammo but i think this problem has already been addressed by federal, i will also discourage you from using pmc shells or pmc starfire ammo.

as for personal experience i have fired about a hundred rounds of corbon thru my gun and so far wala naman problema;f

but i think the most powerful bullet i have fired thru my g22 was a bullet loaded for a modified gun, major PF, sbi nila 7-8 grams daw laman nun, grabe! nung na recover namin ang shell grabe ang buntis, thing is when that same brew was fired thru a gun with a fully supported gunsmith fitted barrel walang kahit anong buntis and the owner of the modified gun uses his shells 10x daw before it cracks....so iba talaga ang gunsmith fitted fully supported barrel...kahit presyo nya iba din hehehehe;f ....pero then agen di ba maraming butas yung modified so cguro that relieves most of the pressure...

Ersatz0906
12-12-2005, 15:57
Originally posted by atmarcella

i will also discourage you from using pmc shells or pmc starfire ammo.


sir, whats the problem with pmc? and what shells do you recommend? is it ok to use armscore shells?

how can you say its time to use new shells? when you see a little cracks?

thanks

p.s. I forgot to mention, when I look at the butt of the eliminator walang naka sulat na +p...but twinpine insist that its a +p ammo

darwin25
12-12-2005, 18:13
Originally posted by horge
I have zero experience with shooting the caliber, but
the preponderance of KB reports on the internet involving
Glock .40S&W kaBooms ([b]at standard pressure![b]) would
give me some pause.


That's the reason too why I chose the 9mm over the .40 cal when I bought my NZ-85B from deenoh. The .40 was my first choice but with the KB incidents, I chose the 9mm. Takot ako masabugan e;f ;f.

Originally posted by Ersatz0906

p.s. I forgot to mention, when I look at the butt of the eliminator walang naka sulat na +p...but twinpine insist that its a +p ammo

Oh yeah its +P. From my dad's Feg .380, the recoil of the 60 gr. Eliminator is noticeably greater than the standard stuff. Same when I used to own a .38 snub and load them with 83 gr. Eliminators.

cznayr
12-12-2005, 18:34
Originally posted by atmarcella
i beg to disagree with most of you;f ...with a smile yan ha, anyway, first of all there is no such thing as a +p or +p+ in .40s&w,

Ah yes, this is also true.. No such +p ammo in .40S&W.. The main reason is that it is, as horge mentioned, high pressure round already.

Ersatz,

Somebody gave me .40S&W ammo and said that it was +p. However, there was no +p marking either. Upon verification, gun experts say that it was not specially if it's factory ammo.

isuzu
12-12-2005, 20:12
I don't know if the section at www.chuckhawks.com is still open. It used to be free, but lately, it has been available to members only.

The section lists guns that can and cannot handle +P ammo. It was an extensive list.

New_comer
12-12-2005, 23:48
Go easy on your gun and it will serve you a long time.

If you need more boom, invest in a stronger gun. There's the 357, 41, and 44 magnum revolvers available at Twin Pines, trust trade and PBD. Last gunshow I saw a hand cannon from S&W at 50cal. ;P

For autos, there's the 357 SIG and the 45super, but I doubt they'd even make it here commercially. I was hoping they'll offer the 10mm here, but it looks slim. So, technically, we're left with the 38super as the only supercharged auto round. That is, if you're ready to deal with the terrible crack of a supersonic round let off in a self defense scenario. ;g

In the end, what counts is what you hit, not what you used. "A hit with a 22 is way better than a miss with a 44..." or so they say.

What do you want to achieve to begin with? ^8

toxic
12-13-2005, 00:48
Originally posted by New_comer
Go easy on your gun and it will serve you a long time.

If you need more boom, invest in a stronger gun. There's the 357, 41, and 44 magnum revolvers available at Twin Pines, trust trade and PBD. Last gunshow I saw a hand cannon from S&W at 50cal. ;P

^8
Cant say no more New_comer you got the words out of my mouth.( in this case my keyboard)

darwin25
12-13-2005, 01:01
Originally posted by New_comer
Go easy on your gun and it will serve you a long time.

If you need more boom, invest in a stronger gun. There's the 357, 41, and 44 magnum revolvers available at Twin Pines, trust trade and PBD. Last gunshow I saw a hand cannon from S&W at 50cal. ;P



If you need more boom take Doc EC's recipe. Kalburo and acetelyne mix.;z ;z ;z

atmarcella
12-13-2005, 03:08
Originally posted by Ersatz0906
sir, whats the problem with pmc? and what shells do you recommend? is it ok to use armscore shells?

how can you say its time to use new shells? when you see a little cracks?

thanks

p.s. I forgot to mention, when I look at the butt of the eliminator walang naka sulat na +p...but twinpine insist that its a +p ammo

pmc shells have a reputation for case failures, i've personally seen one happen on a taurus pt92, armscor shells are ok, i use my shells till it cracks, hehe i've even fired a bullet w/ a cracked shell just to see what will happen hehe, what are the specs for the .40 eliminator, i doubt if it is as powerful as corbon or doubletap, m. mcnett has fired more than 10,000 rnds of doubletap thru his g23 w/o problems:)

Ersatz0906
12-13-2005, 03:33
Originally posted by atmarcella
i use my shells till it cracks, hehe i've even fired a bullet w/ a cracked shell just to see what will happen hehe,

sir what shells do you use? tnx

atmarcella
12-13-2005, 04:40
halo-halo na, pero most of them are armscor:)

Ersatz0906
12-13-2005, 07:36
sir atmarcella I forgot to ask you, are you using Stock Glock Barrel?

so what happen sa kamay nang owner nang taurus pt92? hindi na repairable yung pistol?

atmarcella
12-13-2005, 08:57
yes, the taurus was ok, slide just got loose.

isuzu
12-13-2005, 18:49
Originally posted by atmarcella
pmc shells have a reputation for case failures, i've personally seen one happen on a taurus pt92, armscor shells are ok, i use my shells till it cracks, hehe i've even fired a bullet w/ a cracked shell just to see what will happen hehe, what are the specs for the .40 eliminator, i doubt if it is as powerful as corbon or doubletap, m. mcnett has fired more than 10,000 rnds of doubletap thru his g23 w/o problems:)

Are they the Mexican - manufactured PMC shells?

atmarcella
12-13-2005, 19:12
that i dont know sir:)

jasonub
12-13-2005, 20:23
i use shells till they crack. then again i dont have a glock;b

batangueno
12-13-2005, 21:19
Originally posted by isuzu
Are they the Mexican - manufactured PMC shells?
I thought PMC cases were also made by Armscor.

revo
12-13-2005, 21:25
Originally posted by Ersatz0906

so I ask the salelady that I want to buy the eliminator for my G27 (I bought my G27 in that store also) But she said its not good to use +P on Glocks because daw G barrels might not handle the +P bullets and it will crack. is this true?


No, no, you might have misunderstood the issue.

Its the cases that fail, not the barrels.

Case failure is due to reloading cases previously fired in Glocks.

Because factory Glock barrels are not fully supported at the breech, the cases get a 'bulge' after firing.

If you want to be absolutely safe, such cases should not be reloaded.

If you still want to go ahead and reload such cases, you should examine the case very carefully after the re-sizing process to look for impending signs of case separation and discard any cases that have such signs.

Got it ?

darwin25
12-13-2005, 21:59
Originally posted by batangueno
I thought PMC cases were also made by Armscor.

Yeah me too. But the word that I got is that PMC subcontracts the whole process to Armscor. They just stamp it as PMC

Ersatz0906
12-14-2005, 01:09
Originally posted by revo
No, no, you might have misunderstood the issue.

Its the cases that fail, not the barrels.

Case failure is due to reloading cases previously fired in Glocks.

Because factory Glock barrels are not fully supported at the breech, the cases get a 'bulge' after firing.

If you want to be absolutely safe, such cases should not be reloaded.

If you still want to go ahead and reload such cases, you should examine the case very carefully after the re-sizing process to look for impending signs of case separation and discard any cases that have such signs.

Got it ?

no sir, I want to buy brand new eliminator bullets (never been fired case) from twin pines gunstore, but she told me that's a +p bullets which is not advisable to fire on your GLOCK, that's what she said...

by the way mga sirs, I have PMC shells used about three times now with a target load, no sign of cracks but when you see it up close you will notice a slight bulge at the bottom of the case, is it dangerous to fire it?

atmarcella
12-14-2005, 05:12
you should have it resized properly, recomended resizers for glock fired shells are lee and egw.

Ersatz0906
12-14-2005, 17:41
sit atmarcella i think he uses RCBS, comments mo sa resizer nya? and if may bulge it means he didnt resize it well?

atmarcella
12-15-2005, 01:38
that means di maganda resizer nya, here is an example of a good resizer:

http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=40

theTactician
12-16-2005, 00:04
definitely no +P's..
inquiry..."di ba talaga tinitimbang ng armscor mga reloads nila? I heard rumors kase. I mean, you're not sure baka sobra or kulang yung loads. Unlike there at P.B. dionisio. anyway, rumors lang naman, is this true guys?"

syempre, i mean, we're using glocks and we have to always be very particular when it comes to reloads right?

so far, i've been using reloads from armscor and never have i encountered any problems whatsoever.

Django
12-16-2005, 07:25
Am using Armscor reloads for practice. No problems so far (knock, knock).:)

Ersatz0906
12-16-2005, 22:57
Originally posted by Django
Am using Armscor reloads for practice. No problems so far (knock, knock).:)

what do you mean armscor reload? armscor shells?

revo
12-17-2005, 00:02
Originally posted by Ersatz0906
no sir, I want to buy brand new eliminator bullets (never been fired case) from twin pines gunstore, but she told me that's a +p bullets which is not advisable to fire on your GLOCK, that's what she said...

by the way mga sirs, I have PMC shells used about three times now with a target load, no sign of cracks but when you see it up close you will notice a slight bulge at the bottom of the case, is it dangerous to fire it?

The cracks/lines appear only after the the case is resized.

The saleslady is wrong.

Your Glock is fully capable of firing +P ammo. Just don't re-use the case.

Django
12-17-2005, 03:46
Originally posted by Ersatz0906
what do you mean armscor reload? armscor shells?

I bring my empty shells to Armscor in Parang and wait while they reload it for me. After about two cups of coffee with the good Major, the loads are ready, then I go out to their range and practice. I am, as some of the BOGs here, a member of the Armscor Shooting and Hunting Club. Sometimes, when I feel lazy, I just leave my shells with them after my shooting session and when I come back in my next practice session, the reloads are again ready. This, however, means that my shells will not be cleaned since they only do reloads and seldom clean the shells. :)

Django
12-17-2005, 04:19
My apologies to BOGs who are not familiar with the Armscor complex. Parang, Marikina City is where they have their manufacturing and production plant. This is also where they have their firing range and IMO, the best range in the country boasting of 14 (maybe more) shooting bays. There is a gunstore there selling Armscor products (guns and ammo and accessories). They do reloads too.

Ersatz0906
12-17-2005, 05:30
Originally posted by Django
Sometimes, when I feel lazy, I just leave my shells with them after my shooting session and when I come back in my next practice session, the reloads are again ready. This, however, means that my shells will not be cleaned since they only do reloads and seldom clean the shells. :)

nice... how much for their reloads? FMJ? how can I be a member? how much? tnx

Django
12-17-2005, 06:14
Please call Tel. No. 941-42 or 941-7328. Look for Gina. She'll fill you in on all your membership questions.

Allegra
12-17-2005, 06:31
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Django
[B]My apologies to BOGs who are not familiar with the Armscor complex. Parang, Marikina City is where they have their manufacturing and production plant. This is also where they have their firing range and IMO, the best range in the country boasting of 14 (maybe more) shooting bays.....



I hate that range hehe
I've shot only 4 matches there , 3 DQ , 1 sumabog ang baril ko
Di nako bumalik dun
Galit yata sakin mga dwende dun

IMO, the best range is the CPRA range in Cebu, kung buhay pa sya

isuzu
12-17-2005, 09:43
Originally posted by darwin25
Yeah me too. But the word that I got is that PMC subcontracts the whole process to Armscor. They just stamp it as PMC

That explains why the shells of Armscor ammo I bought two years ago were stamped PMC.