Kahr Magazines

[BobRowe]

I have a Kahr P9 that I have owned 2 or 3 years. When I first got it, there were a few FTF, but after about 100 rounds break-in, it worked fine. Now have about 600 rounds through it with no problems.

My problem is with the Kahr magazines. When I bought the pistol, it came with two magazines: a flush fit 7-round mag, and an extended 8-round mag. Shortly after I bought it, I bought two more 7-round mags.

All four of these mags have the same problems: rounds tend to pop out of the mag when not in the gun. If I'm carrying the extra mag in my front pocket (nothing else in the pocket), when I take the mag out at the end of the day, I will frequently find one or two of the rounds have popped out of the mag and are loose in my pocket.

I also have a leather double mag belt pouch. The problem here is that, when inserting the mags in the pouch, the top round in the mag will often pop out. Naturally, it falls into the pouch and I have to take the belt off and turn the pouch upside down to get the round out. Major PITA.

As a result, I haven't carried the P9 much.

Anyone else have a similar problem with these mags? Has anyone written or called Kahr about it?

Thanks

--Bob

[drofnas]

For my 6 or 7 round mags for my PM9 I sometimes have a round pop out. It is generally only if I've bumped it around a bit, etc. I can certainly see it if I carried one loose in my pocket. I generally do not have a problem with that happening with a mag pouch. For me, it has not been problematic enough (at all) to keep me from carrying the Kahr.

[warmrain]

Bob,

The design of the pistol, its low barrel axis, offset feed ramp, etc., all the things that allows it to be so compact is married to the magazine design. The feed lips of the magazine will release a round when bumped.

For this reason it is impractical to carry a Kahr magazine loose in the pocket or in any "square bottomed" magazine pouch (even though these are offered for sale on the Kahr web page).

The solution for me is to carry on the belt in a Leatherman pouch, hidden in plain site (these pouches are available with a stainless belt hook), or in a Milt Sparks (http://www.miltsparks.com) off-side pocket magazine carrier (PCH-M). Note the angled bottom of the sparks holder. The

http://www.miltsparks.com/images/Photos/PCH-M.jpg

My Mitch Rosen (http://www.mitchrosen.com) SOS is also constructed with an angled bottom to the magazine pouch.

http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/accessories/sos.jpg

Additoinally, in case you haven't done it yet, you can bump a round out as you insert the magazine into the pistol thereby preventing you from seating the magazine. In all the years I've carried and in all the training I've done with my MK9, I've only done this once and it was when I was inserting the magazine into the pistol while the pistol was still in my holster, admittedly a little awkward.

So the magazine design is something that you must simply be aware of and deal with...

[big68]

Very nice rigs to carry mags in the pocket. I have noticed that if you start to push ammo out of my T9 mag they all tend to want to come out. I could see how if carried in the pocket loosely the rounds might have a tendancy to come out.

[warmrain]

Originally posted by big68
Very nice rigs to carry mags in the pocket. I have noticed that if you start to push ammo out of my T9 mag they all tend to want to come out. I could see how if carried in the pocket loosely the rounds might have a tendancy to come out.
Yes, it doesn't show well, but the Milt Sparks has a wire frame that is used to shaoe the PCH-M to the shape of your thigh, thereby causing it to nearly disappear in your pocket.

This is an adaptation of their PCH pocket holster.

http://www.miltsparks.com/images/Photos/PCH_small.jpg

[jpshaw]

BobRowe - In your initial post you mentioned your "flush" 7 rd and extended 8 rounder. Things must have changed since my P9. At about 3 years old it came with two 7 rounders that are slightly extended.

Do they now make a flush magazine for it. And do they make an 8 rounder. I've always wanted a flush mag even if it was 6 rds.

[BobRowe]

When I wrote about a "flush" magazine, I meant flush as opposed to extended. I didn't mean that the magazine was actually flush with the bottom of the grip. The regular flush 7-round magazine for the P9 protrudes about 1/4-inch below the bottom of the grip. The extended 8-round magazine extends much more than that below the bottom of the grip.

My P9 was shipped with one 7-round mag and one 8-round mag.
Hope this clears up any misconceptions.

[jpshaw]

Thanks Bob - I was reading too much into it. A few years back some people were trying to get "true flush" 6 rounders for their K9s and P9s but Kahr never made any. Always thought the P9 felt very good without the 1/4 inch extensions. Same feel as with no mag.

[Mail Clerk]

Originally posted by BobRowe
I have a Kahr P9 that I have owned 2 or 3 years. When I first got it, there were a few FTF, but after about 100 rounds break-in, it worked fine. Now have about 600 rounds through it with no problems.

My problem is with the Kahr magazines. When I bought the pistol, it came with two magazines: a flush fit 7-round mag, and an extended 8-round mag. Shortly after I bought it, I bought two more 7-round mags.

All four of these mags have the same problems: rounds tend to pop out of the mag when not in the gun. If I'm carrying the extra mag in my front pocket (nothing else in the pocket), when I take the mag out at the end of the day, I will frequently find one or two of the rounds have popped out of the mag and are loose in my pocket.

I also have a leather double mag belt pouch. The problem here is that, when inserting the mags in the pouch, the top round in the mag will often pop out. Naturally, it falls into the pouch and I have to take the belt off and turn the pouch upside down to get the round out. Major PITA.

As a result, I haven't carried the P9 much.

Anyone else have a similar problem with these mags? Has anyone written or called Kahr about it?

Thanks

--Bob


Bob,

The magazine seems to be a weak link in the Kahr line. The lips aren't holding on to the rounds. I've seen and had this same problem as well.They're very expensive too.

[warmrain]

The magazines are not a weak link, they function fine. Magazines should not be carried loose in the pocket any more than a pistol should be. In 7+ years of daily carry I have only lost one round out of one and that was when I was clumsily trying to reinsert the magazine into the pistol while it was still in my holster.

The lip design is part of the offset feed-ramp/low bore axis design.

[BobRowe]

The magazines are not a weak link, they function fine.

That's a matter of opinion, I guess.

I noted two problems with the factory magazines for my Kahr P9. (1) A tendency for rounds to come out of the mag when mag is carried loose in the pocket; and )2) A tendency for the top round of the mag to pop out when inserting it into a belt mag pouch.

I should note that I currently own well over 30 pistols, and routinely carry over 15 of them. I have carried concealed close to 50 years, both plainclothes LEO and civilian. I have never experienced either of these problems with any other semi-auto pistol I have owned or carried.

To me, that's a weak link. It doesn't matter to me whether it is a malfunction of the magazine, or whether it's a characteristic of the design of the magazine because of the way it interacts with the pistol. In either event, it is unsaatisfactory, which is why I don't carry the Kahr anymore. I gave it to my wife, and whe carries it in her purse (she doesn't carry spare mag), and she likes it because of its light weight.

[switch625]

I really like the Sparks carrier but I'm not gonna pay $50 for it.;P Does anybody know of a reasonable alternative?

[YukonGlocker]

I just purchased a PM9. With both of the magazines that came with it, the rounds kind of snap in. It is actully very hard to get the round out once it is in. I think the round snaps in too tight, but maybe it's just me. I have owned, and do own many autos, and none of the others fit this tight. I would prefer magazines that let the rounds out freely, anyone know where I can get some? There is also a big gap between the top round and second round when fully loaded. Is this normal? Because of this gap, the round nosedives down when the slide strips the round. I will try to attach a photo of this gap.

[warmrain]

Originally posted by YukonGlocker
I just purchased a PM9. With both of the magazines that came with it, the rounds kind of snap in. It is actully very hard to get the round out once it is in. I think the round snaps in too tight, but maybe it's just me. I have owned, and do own many autos, and none of the others fit this tight. I would prefer magazines that let the rounds out freely, anyone know where I can get some? There is also a big gap between the top round and second round when fully loaded. Is this normal? Because of this gap, the round nosedives down when the slide strips the round. I will try to attach a photo of this gap.
The gap is normal. The nose-dive you speak of may or may not be related... My Kahr MK9 has never had a feed problems with the same magazines that have caused nose-dives in the the PM9. I think it's a timing issue; between magazine spring and recoils spring.

It seems the only problem folks have with loosing rounds out of the magazines is when carried loose in the pocket or in a magazine carrier that is sqaured off at the bottom (not fitted or boned to the shape of the magazine. Don't do those things and don't have the problem. Don't like that, sell the pistol. Yes, you can also solve the problem by not carrying a spare magazine at all... ;Q

A properly fitted magazine carrier:
http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/accessories/5dm.jpg

[drofnas]

That "gap" is only in the front. The back is snug. The top round kinda "flips up". I'm surprised it nosedives. I never noticed that. I've never really looked that closely. My thought was the flip up was to help it get into position. If it dives, it sounds like it would defeat the purpose.

[BackDraft]

I had to reread this post a few times to understand what you were talking about till I saw your pic. I check my magazines and they all do the same thing and they funtion fine. I have a few of the el cheapos and some do and some don't but they work like crap so they are used for malfuntion drills in training.

[YukonGlocker]

Originally posted by drofnas
That "gap" is only in the front. The back is snug. The top round kinda "flips up". I'm surprised it nosedives. I never noticed that. I've never really looked that closely. My thought was the flip up was to help it get into position. If it dives, it sounds like it would defeat the purpose.

Exactly. If all the rounds would push up at the same angle that the top round is, they would feed better in the pm9. I'm just wondering if this might have something to do with feeding problems in the pm9. I have only found one thing strange with mine; I can not pull the slide back slowly and release it to chamber a round. I have to sling shot it swiftly or use the slide lock. If you release the slide slowly, you can watch the round nosedive down into the feed ramp and jam.

[warmrain]

Originally posted by YukonGlocker
Exactly. If all the rounds would push up at the same angle that the top round is, they would feed better in the pm9. I'm just wondering if this might have something to do with feeding problems in the pm9. I have only found one thing strange with mine; I can not pull the slide back slowly and release it to chamber a round. I have to sling shot it swiftly or use the slide lock. If you release the slide slowly, you can watch the round nosedive down into the feed ramp and jam.
Yukon',
What you are experiencing is typical of the PM9s (and the PM40 if not others). The method you are using to make it work is the correct method for any pistol. The slide has to be operated at the same velocity as it would during normal operation (firing live fire).

Kahr (Dottie) says you have to use th slide lock, that is Kahr's position. Well that's garbage advice IHMO. Any trainer is going to tell you that during stress you are going to loose the fine motor skill it is going to take to find and operate the slide release.

Sling shoting the slide will work for any semi-auto. You don't have to find the location of the slide release, you don't wear the slide lock notch.

[BobRowe]

Originally posted by YukonGlocker
I just purchased a PM9. With both of the magazines that came with it, the rounds kind of snap in. It is actully very hard to get the round out once it is in. I think the round snaps in too tight, but maybe it's just me. I have owned, and do own many autos, and none of the others fit this tight. I would prefer magazines that let the rounds out freely, anyone know where I can get some? There is also a big gap between the top round and second round when fully loaded. Is this normal? Because of this gap, the round nosedives down when the slide strips the round. I will try to attach a photo of this gap.

It is not likely that the "gap" of which you spoke is related to the nosedive. The gap in the front is seen because, like in every single-stack magazine, the angle of the rounds below the top round is controlled by the angle of the follower. The round just above the follower takes on the angle of the follower, and that influences the angle of the rounds above it. The angle of the top round, however, is controlled by the angle of the feed lips at the top of the magazine tube. This situation exists in many singl-stack magazines, to a greaater or lesser degree. I see in in my factory magazines for my 1911 .45 ACP pistols, my SIG P239 .40 S&W pistol, my SIG P232 .380 Auto pistol, and my Ruger P97 .45 ACP pistol.

The nose-dive problem should go away with the proper break-in. Kahr recommends 200 or 250 rounds break-in on their pistols.

Usually, when the Kahr pistol is relatively new, the nose-dive is usually seen when mnaually chambering the first round out of the magazine. It is rarely seen when the pistol automatically chambers the subsequent rounds.

Also, when the pistol is srelatively new, the nose-dive tends to occur when the first round is chambered by manually racking the slide. It occurs much less often if the slide is locked back, the magazine is inserted, and the slide lock release is pushed down to let the slide slam forward.

On my P9, particularly for the first 60 or 70 rounds, the first round would nose-dive when I chambered the first round by racking the slide. It never nose-dived when I used the slide release to let the slide slam forward from the slide lock position. After I had a couple hundred rounds through it, it didn't nose-dive at all.

In order not to cause a nose-dive on the first round, the slide must be going forward fast enough to fairly violently strip the first round out of the mag. If the slide is slowed down at all, it allows time enough for the nose of the bullet to dip down before it contacts the feed ramp of the barrel. Often, when hand racking the slide, we tend to impart a little drag on the slide when we let go of it, thus slowing it down a little.

After the pistol is broken in, manual racking the first round can be accomplished without causing a nose dive, but we must be careful to not slow the slide down when we let go of it. The best way to do this is to pull the slide back quickly and let is slip out of out hand when it hits its most rearward travel. The problem with this method is that, if we do it a lot in the same range session, the rather-sharp grasping grooves on the rear of the slide tends to abrade our hands. (g)

So, try putting the slide at slide lock, inserting the mag, and releasing the slide with the slide lock lever. After you get a few more rounds through the gun, that shouldn't be as necessary.

[warmrain]

Excellent post Bob! :cool:

[YukonGlocker]

Originally posted by BobRowe
It is not likely that the "gap" of which you spoke is related to the nosedive. The gap in the front is seen because, like in every single-stack magazine, the angle of the rounds below the top round is controlled by the angle of the follower. The round just above the follower takes on the angle of the follower, and that influences the angle of the rounds above it. The angle of the top round, however, is controlled by the angle of the feed lips at the top of the magazine tube. This situation exists in many singl-stack magazines, to a greaater or lesser degree. I see in in my factory magazines for my 1911 .45 ACP pistols, my SIG P239 .40 S&W pistol, my SIG P232 .380 Auto pistol, and my Ruger P97 .45 ACP pistol.

The nose-dive problem should go away with the proper break-in. Kahr recommends 200 or 250 rounds break-in on their pistols.

Usually, when the Kahr pistol is relatively new, the nose-dive is usually seen when mnaually chambering the first round out of the magazine. It is rarely seen when the pistol automatically chambers the subsequent rounds.

Also, when the pistol is srelatively new, the nose-dive tends to occur when the first round is chambered by manually racking the slide. It occurs much less often if the slide is locked back, the magazine is inserted, and the slide lock release is pushed down to let the slide slam forward.

On my P9, particularly for the first 60 or 70 rounds, the first round would nose-dive when I chambered the first round by racking the slide. It never nose-dived when I used the slide release to let the slide slam forward from the slide lock position. After I had a couple hundred rounds through it, it didn't nose-dive at all.

In order not to cause a nose-dive on the first round, the slide must be going forward fast enough to fairly violently strip the first round out of the mag. If the slide is slowed down at all, it allows time enough for the nose of the bullet to dip down before it contacts the feed ramp of the barrel. Often, when hand racking the slide, we tend to impart a little drag on the slide when we let go of it, thus slowing it down a little.

After the pistol is broken in, manual racking the first round can be accomplished without causing a nose dive, but we must be careful to not slow the slide down when we let go of it. The best way to do this is to pull the slide back quickly and let is slip out of out hand when it hits its most rearward travel. The problem with this method is that, if we do it a lot in the same range session, the rather-sharp grasping grooves on the rear of the slide tends to abrade our hands. (g)

So, try putting the slide at slide lock, inserting the mag, and releasing the slide with the slide lock lever. After you get a few more rounds through the gun, that shouldn't be as necessary.

I understand everything you stated perfectly. If the angle of the follower were to match the angle of the feed lips, I think it would feed better. If I use the slide lock to release the slide I have no problem. If I slingshot the slide very hard I have no problem. If I pull the slide to the rear, stop, then release the slide-it jams. That is with no riding of the slide-just a clean release from the rear. The gun seems overly sensitive to this. I now have about 750 rounds through my pm9, and it still does this. I am headed to the range today to practice some more. I have left the magazines fully loaded for a couple weeks, we'll see!!

One more thing, the practice of always locking the slide back before you insert the magazine is not always possible. On a range gun yes, on a self-defense gun no. I'm having bad thoughts about the gun jamming in a gunfight. I know, the chances of me getting into a gunfight are slim. The chances of me having to reload during a gunfight are even slimmer. But that one chance in a million is bugging me. I usually don't do the what if this, what if that, but the other senerio could be: you grab the gun in the dead of night and it is unloaded, you quickly find a magazine, slap it home, rack the slide, and it jams just as the bad guy walks in, he shoots you with his .25 auto while you try to lock the slide back manually. Ok, I got a little carried away there, but maybe you see my point!!!

[warmrain]

Yukon',

I do see your point and I understand your very real concern. This is how I am handling that situation:

I have simply spent a lot of time practicing the different loading scenarios until I convinced myself that I can do it with utmost reliability. That Kahr even recommends do chamber the initial round by only droping the slide with the slide lock seems, well... less than what I would expect for a manufacturer of their apparant quality. It seems like a silly excuse.

I have highly polished my feed ramps to a chrome like mirror finish, this helps some.

Your experiences are not unique. This does seem to be a plymer only pistol problem. My MK9 has NEVER had this problem, but my PM40 and PM9 have. BTW, the feed ramp on the polymer pistols is much narrower and as a result is centered farther to the left. This may be a contributing factor in the feeding difficulty.

Running the pistol dry in a self defense gun fight is highly unlikey as you state... Still a S.D. shooting is damn unlike too, as you also point out. Still, we purchase, train and prepare for the slight chance that we will need that preparation.

But if you do run the pistol dry in a gunfight the slide will be locked back. You can choose now how to train, but I've had the shakes from the adrenelin ruch and I'm not counting on having the required fine motor skill. So I've practiced sling shotting until I beleive I can do it reliably...

[BobRowe]

Originally posted by YukonGlocker
If the angle of the follower were to match the angle of the feed lips, I think it would feed better.
That's not likely to happen. I've checked the factory magazines of all of my pistols, both single-stack and double-stack. that's about nine different brands and many more different models. On NONE of them, does the angle of the follower match the angle of the feed lips. Some are closer than others, but none of them match. The angle of the follower is designed to insure reliable feeding of the rounds up the magazine tube. However, the angle of the feed lips is designed to insure reliable feeding of the top round into the chanber.

If I use the slide lock to release the slide I have no problem. If I slingshot the slide very hard I have no problem. If I pull the slide to the rear, stop, then release the slide-it jams. That is with no riding of the slide-just a clean release from the rear.
I'm not trying to denigrate you here, YukonGlocker, but you have made my point. Regardless of whether you want to call it "riding the slide" or not, your own experiment has shown that the third method you describe above is simply not as "clean" a release as the first two methods.

The gun seems overly sensitive to this.
That's what I have been attempting to point out! As I'm sure you are aware, the Kahr pistols are able to achieve their noted slimness because of the slightly offset positioning of the barrel feed ramp. This feed ramp positioning is what results in the sensitivity of the gun to various methods of slide release. In order words, you pay for the slimness of the gun with the sensitivity.

One more thing, the practice of always locking the slide back before you insert the magazine is not always possible. On a range gun yes, on a self-defense gun no. I'm having bad thoughts about the gun jamming in a gunfight. I know, the chances of me getting into a gunfight are slim. The chances of me having to reload during a gunfight are even slimmer. But that one chance in a million is bugging me. I usually don't do the what if this, what if that, but the other senerio could be: you grab the gun in the dead of night and it is unloaded, you quickly find a magazine, slap it home, rack the slide, and it jams just as the bad guy walks in, he shoots you with his .25 auto while you try to lock the slide back manually. Ok, I got a little carried away there, but maybe you see my point!!!
Doesn't seem like that big of a problem to me. First off, in most gunfights, you are going to be shooting the gun until it runs out out of ammo, in which case you'll be at slide lock. Dump the mag, insert new one, hit slide release lever. If you still have rounds in gun and want to "top it off", then remove the partial mag, and insert a full one; no need to manipulate the slide. If the gun jams, do a "tap-rack-bang" clearance, and use your second method (slingshot very hard) to rack the slide - you said you had no problems when using that method. If it is a more severe jam, procedure calls for one to lock the slide back anyway. Regarding house gun---the ideal situation is to keep your house gun close and loaded. If you're not comfortable with doing that, then use the "hard slingshot" method -- or get a revolver that uses speedloaders or full moon clips -- or get a different pistol.

If you want the advantages of a Kahr -- a very slim concealable pistol in a good self-defense caliber -- then you should always practice loading it with the slide release lever or a hard slingshot. The Kahr is at its best when used as a CCW. It is not the best choice for a home defense gun.

[warmrain]

Another good post Bob, you said what I was thinking... ;)

[Undead Jed]

Originally posted by warmrain
Any trainer is going to tell you that during stress you are going to loose the fine motor skill it is going to take to find and operate the slide release.

Sling shoting the slide will work for any semi-auto. You don't have to find the location of the slide release, you don't wear the slide lock notch.


I hear this all the time on the internet and I think it's rubbish. If you're so stressed that you can't operate your slide release you're probably not going to hit your intended target anyways. Isn't pulling a trigger for an accurate shot a finer motor skill than pushing down on a slide release with your thumb?

Personally the only time I do use the slide release rather than the slingshot method is when I'm rapid firing or doing a practice drill. I do prefer the slingshot method for normal shooting because it saves on the rounding off of the slide release catch.

If your fine motor skills do fail you as you described, (how are you gonna pull the trigger then) it's easy enough to revert to the slingshot method, provided you haven't been shot in the shoulder or arm already.

In an emergency, I would probably end up using the slingshot method with my MK9 and the slide release with my BHP. It's also about personnal preference and differences between guns IMHO.

[warmrain]

Originally posted by Undead Jed
I hear this all the time on the internet and I think it's rubbish.
I have this from several well known trainers, not internet gossip. I have been stressed, I know what fine motor lose is...

If you're so stressed that you can't operate your slide release you're probably not going to hit your intended target anyways. Isn't pulling a trigger for an accurate shot a finer motor skill than pushing down on a slide release with your thumb?
Nope. Think about it. Holding the pistol is natural. So is placing your finger on the trigger. Searching for the slide release with your other hand or shifting you grip to get it with your strong hand isn't natural. You pull the trigger 6 to 15 times more often in training then you drop the slide.

In fact holding the pistol with you finger on the trigger is SO natural it males DA and SA pistols potentially dangerous if you haven't trained sufficiently with them. The DAO in this situation is much less likely to have a AD, esp. the second shot being a AD.

Personally the only time I do use the slide release rather than the slingshot method is when I'm rapid firing or doing a practice drill. I do prefer the slingshot method for normal shooting because it saves on the rounding off of the slide release catch.
That's another good reason. Why not practice something consistant?! When you are stressed you will revert to what you've trained...

If your fine motor skills do fail you as you described, (how are you gonna pull the trigger then) that's not a Not IF, but rather WHEN, it will happen pulling the trigger is not a fine motor skill
it's easy enough to revert to the slingshot method, provided you haven't been shot in the shoulder or arm already.I think you'll find that most, if not all, trainers will tell you to train for consistancy and develop "muscle memory" because that's what you are going to revert to during stress.

In an emergency, I would probably end up using the slingshot method with my MK9 and the slide release with my BHP. It's also about personnal preference and differences between guns IMHO.
It's about consistancy. Which method are you going to use when your gun jams or you run it dry and you pick up your partner's or the BG's gun? What... let's see, is it a 1911 or a Kahr or a Glock... ;Q No, you sling shot it, what ever it is, and it's ready to go!

[Coffin Filler]

Quote
It's about consistency. Which method are you going to use when your gun jams or you run it dry and you pick up your partner's or the BG's gun? What... let's see, is it a 1911 or a Kahr or a Glock... No, you sling shot it, what ever it is, and it's ready to go!

EXCATELY!!

This is why you "sling shot". It works with everything and it is not dependent on fine motor skills.

[Undead Jed]

In the high stress situations I've been in, this was not a factor, so I guess the ho-hum is more my personal opinion than anything.

But then the fine motor skills arguement does also sell alot of training classes. Like I said before, personally I think it's rubbish. But everyone is welcome to their opinions. Not saying I'm right or wrong.

[YukonGlocker]

If a person loses fine motor skills, how does anyone press the magazine release to reload??? As a psychology major I have studied what happens to humans in traumatic situations. It is way more complicated than, 'we just lose fine motor skills'. I am very sick right now (I think I have the flu) so I am not going to go into detail at this time. It would take a lot of typing, and it would require a lot of reading. But if a person can not operate the slide lock, how is the person going to operate the magazine release??? I know the answer, but I would like to see the replies first.

[warmrain]

You don't have a choice for a magazine release and magazine releases are different on different guns...

Slide releases are also different on different guns, but there is something that works on all of them, rack. In addition racking, not utilizing the slide lock, is going to be required to clear a jam. So why not train and utilize what is more likely to work every time?!

Yukon', I appreciate your training in psychology. Have you ever been in a stress situation, experienced tunnel vision, slow motion and the shakes from an drenaline dump? I have and it messes you up!

So I'm not going to argue with Clint Smith, Massad Ayoob, Jeff Cooper or the others. Especially since I have seen the effect of stress personally and somehow automatically performed how I was trained and prevailed.

[billranks]

For the P40 I use a Fobus double mag carrier made for a 1911.
It has a flat bottom and I was always losing the first round.
I used some foam weather stripping I found in the garage (1/4 thick by 3/8 wide self sticking). I peeled the backing and made three tight rolls then cut it off leaving about a 3/4" tab and put it in the bottom of the carrier with the roll to one side and the tab flat on the bottom to hold it in place.
Now the first round is supported near the rim by the roll and I haven't lost a round yet.