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castorTroy
12-27-2005, 06:09
Someone asked me this question, and made me wonder about it as well. This is just a legal question so I hope no one here thinks I am encouraging any illegal behavior. ;b

Let us suppose you had a gun and its necessary valid documents, such as its license and your permit to carry it outside the residence.
One day, since you are feeling uneasy about going to a particular bar(but for some reason still go), you bring your gun inside(which is illegal under the terms provided by the PTCFOR).
While inside the bar, you had to kill someone in self-defense.
Here's the question: Given that the "self-defense defense" is undisputed, what crime, if any, could you be charged with and what are the potential sentences for such crimes? ;b

casmot
12-27-2005, 10:19
Illegal pocession.

deenoh
12-27-2005, 17:33
homicide i guess since you killed the person

cznayr
12-27-2005, 19:01
You will be charged of violating the terms and condition of the PTCFOR and it may result in the confiscation of your firearm.

but the more pressing concern is you will still be charged with homicide. If proven to be done in self defense, then it will be ruled as a justifiable homicide. But then again that would be hard to prove, since you were not suppose to bring the firearm inside an establishment. Mens rea or your criminal intent would be stressed by the prosecutors by bringing your gun inside which is not allowed.

The scenario would complicate things, did he have a fork to stab you with? ;f

Inside a bar, the best thing would be to walk away from trouble makers... well, if he follows you to your car outside that's another thing.. you could be imaginative ;f

Seriously, sabi nga ng aking sensei.. Madaling bumili ng gulo at away mahirap lumabas...


Then again, I'm not a legal expert.. expert sa tomaan pwede pa :cool: Pagalingan na lang kayo ng abugado pag nagkataon...

isuzu
12-27-2005, 19:02
You're in deep s**t! When you signed your name in the PTC, you agreed to abide by the provisions. There will be a lot of questions asked, and a lot of money spent to the delight of the lawyers.

New_comer
12-27-2005, 19:08
Originally posted by castorTroy
Someone asked me this question, and made me wonder about it as well. This is just a legal question so I hope no one here thinks I am encouraging any illegal behavior. ;b

Let us suppose you had a gun and its necessary valid documents, such as its license and your permit to carry it outside the residence.
One day, since you are feeling uneasy about going to a particular bar(but for some reason still go), you bring your gun inside(which is illegal under the terms provided by the PTCFOR).
While inside the bar, you had to kill someone in self-defense.
Here's the question: Given that the "self-defense defense" is undisputed, what crime, if any, could you be charged with and what are the potential sentences for such crimes? ;b I guess it still depends on the situation as you or the witnesses would describe.

But if I were a brother, wife or parent of the one you killed, I'd go for your jugular: nothing less than murder. But that's for the fiscal to decide upon appreciation of the evidences and the manifestation of specific conditions that make it so. I guess bringing in a weapon in a no-carry zone puts you at a grave situation already.

Just my 2 centavos ;)

PMMA97
12-27-2005, 20:12
Seems to me it's like accidentally killing somebody with a car or being engaged in a traffic accident (even if your on the right of way) when you don't have a drivers license. You should not have been in the streets in the first place.

isuzu
12-27-2005, 21:11
Originally posted by New_comer
I guess it still depends on the situation as you or the witnesses would describe.

But if I were a brother, wife or parent of the one you killed, I'd go for your jugular: nothing less than murder. But that's for the fiscal to decide upon appreciation of the evidences and the manifestation of specific conditions that make it so. I guess bringing in a weapon in a no-carry zone puts you at a grave situation already.

Just my 2 centavos ;)

Yup, bringing a firearm in an area restricted by the conditions on your PTC is a violation in itself. Shooting somebody in that area is just like putting salt on a wound. There are just no excuses for bringing a firearm in areas prohibited by the conditions set on the PTC.

riddler
12-27-2005, 22:01
Originally posted by castorTroy
{snip} ... since you are feeling uneasy about going to a particular bar ... {snip}

Then why go??

If you feel that it is not safe, then by going, you are exercising bad judgement. Add a handgun to the scenario and you definitely are pushing your luck.

I do not know with you but a responsible gun owner IMHO will avoid trouble rather than seek it.

darwin25
12-27-2005, 23:21
Originally posted by cznayr
If proven to be done in self defense, then it will be ruled as a justifiable homicide. But then again that would be hard to prove, since you were not suppose to bring the firearm inside an establishment.

I agree, you will be the one who will be charged having criminal intent. And proving that you acted in self-defense would be a long shot at best IMHO.

MELBU
12-28-2005, 02:43
Originally posted by cznayr

Inside a bar, the best thing would be to walk away from trouble makers... well, if he follows you to your car outside that's another thing..

Seriously, sabi nga ng aking sensei.. Madaling bumili ng gulo at away mahirap lumabas...




Mismo bro cznayr

s.g
12-28-2005, 02:50
Would it in any way affect whatever charges that would be leveled against castorTroy if the hypothetical person he shot was also armed with a gun?

toxic
12-28-2005, 03:19
Just forget the word "Bahala na"
Stay away from hot spots or kung di makaiwas iwan mo yung baril mo sa sasakyan or asked the guard to keep it for you.
Remember GUN and Alcohol is a Big No No : a Bad JUJU dont take any chance/s.
Kung matigas ulo carry parin kahit nakainom or iinom sa bar, kahit saaang husgado talo ka kung mababaw ang bulsa. As one BOG implied pagalingan na lang ng abogado o palakasan ng connections o paramihan ng pera.

Kiddo
12-28-2005, 05:00
Originally posted by s.g
Would it in any way affect whatever charges that would be leveled against castorTroy if the hypothetical person he shot was also armed with a gun?

I think that it wouldn't matter much in a sense that even though the defendant shot an armed man, he violated his PTC anyway and they might say that he was intentionally looking to shoot it out with someone. Like toxic said, alcohol and guns produce potentially dangerous situations. You could have one, but not both at the same time. IMHO.

Ersatz0906
12-28-2005, 17:30
how about commercial establishment? mga malls yan right?

kasi security guard here sa mall namin when he know you have a gun he will let go inside the mall after you log in your info in thier log book.

what if you shot a guy inside the mall? is it still ilegal posession?

cznayr
12-28-2005, 20:05
The first question the prosecutors would ask you is that, why would you bring a gun in a mall? The scenario is very much the same as the bar case.

Besides, being a responsible gun owner, you know that a gun is prohibited inside the mall so why still bring it?

Here's an interesting fact that gun slingers here should know. There have been self defense shooting cases in the U.S. where the BG was shot in the chest and back area. The lawyers of the BG argued that the guy was shot in the back and the shooters should be charged with homicide. The lawyers of the shooters got a gun expert to render their "technical knowledge" for the case. The experts showed a video simulation where a shooter doing double taps or successive shots could only stop at the third shot after the supposed BG charged and was shot and then turned around because of gunshots.

The case was that of hammer carrying thief charging at a gun armed owner of the establishment (the thief didn't know that the owner had a gun and instinctively charged at the owner when surprised).

Ganun pala ang reaction ng nabaril ng wala siyang kaalam alam na may baril pala ang kalaban. Pagkatama sa kaniya ay tumalikod at tatakbo sana. Kaso nga ang shooter ay di kaagad makakareact na huminto until the 2nd or third shot. You can't assume that a single shot could stop your attacker di ba? It has something to do with the PRT (Perception Reaction Time).

The case was ruled as a justifiable homicide. Baka lang sakaling mangyari sa atin (huwag naman sana), at least meron tayong maisagot at makatulong sa mga abugado natin sa pagdedepensa.

isuzu
12-28-2005, 20:09
Originally posted by Ersatz0906
how about commercial establishment? mga malls yan right?

kasi security guard here sa mall namin when he know you have a gun he will let go inside the mall after you log in your info in thier log book.

what if you shot a guy inside the mall? is it still ilegal posession?

Just read the fine print in the conditions of your PTC. You'll find all the answers there.

Ersatz0906
12-29-2005, 00:33
Originally posted by isuzu
Just read the fine print in the conditions of your PTC. You'll find all the answers there.

I did...

Thats why Im asking why the secu still allow you to bring it inside...


reason why did you bring it to the mall?

maybe Because the Glock is to light that I forget to left it in the car and the secu dont mind so I bring it in.

maybe your car broke down, so you ride the taxi to the mall

my car has a broken glass so its much more dangerous to left the gun in the car, someone might steal it and use it in a crime...

people I know bring thier gun so I do too

:)

cznayr
12-29-2005, 01:03
Originally posted by Ersatz0906
I did...

Thats why Im asking why the secu still allow you to bring it inside...


reason why did you bring it to the mall?

maybe Because the Glock is to light that I forget to left it in the car and the secu dont mind so I bring it in.

maybe your car broke down, so you ride the taxi to the mall

my car has a broken glass so its much more dangerous to left the gun in the car, someone might steal it and use it in a crime...

people I know bring thier gun so I do too

:)

Well to each his own.. a lot of maybes..

Yung sa amin lang eh, mga suggestions para di mapasubo sa gulo at mapariwara... If you still insist in bringing your gun to the mall just because others are doing it and di ka nakakatiyempo ng oplan bakal at feeling mo eh mapapalaban ka ng barilan sa loob.. well, by all means do so ;f

castorTroy
12-29-2005, 05:56
Yeah, it'd probably very difficult as u guys said to actually prove that it was self-defense. Except of course, as some of yo have said, you've gotta lotta money or got some high-up connections.
That thing with the malls, as posted with Ersatz, is actually kinda tricky. The provision in the PTC containing "commercial establishments" is too encomapassing and our lawmakers or whoever made that particular line didn't have better words to make it more specific. It covers pretty much all establishments where exchange of money occurs, which is quite a whole lot of places including gun repair shops and turo-turos! As a result, the provision loses its intended effect since many don't mind it altogether.
;b

glockomolly
12-29-2005, 12:55
Originally posted by castorTroy
Yeah, it'd probably very difficult as u guys said to actually prove that it was self-defense. Except of course, as some of yo have said, you've gotta lotta money or got some high-up connections.
That thing with the malls, as posted with Ersatz, is actually kinda tricky. The provision in the PTC containing "commercial establishments" is too encomapassing and our lawmakers or whoever made that particular line didn't have better words to make it more specific. It covers pretty much all establishments where exchange of money occurs, which is quite a whole lot of places including gun repair shops and turo-turos! As a result, the provision loses its intended effect since many don't mind it altogether.
;b

I agree... So if you need to bring w/ you your firearm in a "commercial establishment" like a mall, my advice is inform the guard as a courtesy to them that you have no bad intentions then keep it since there is a very very small chance that you will be in a firefight inside the mall. Now if you will got to hot spots like bars, beerhouses & whorehouses then I suggest you leave your toy at home. There is always a way out kung mapapaaway ka sa mga ganitong lugar -you can simply leave before it heats up in there... Or you can bring your gun, feel very comfortable since you have your PTC w/ you -wait for someone to pick a fight & kill them all!! ;f

PMMA97
12-29-2005, 17:04
"commercial establishments" is a very broad word indeed because almost anywhere you go outside your property is an enterprising area. From paid parking lots to restaurants to hotels and the list of "commercial" establishments goes on and on. If I had a PTC I would carry anywhere my common sense and judgement would permit me, otherwise I should have just saved my 10T-12T pesos for a shottie. :)

paltic
12-29-2005, 18:59
....please explain these... "better to be tried by 12 than to be carried by 6".. :cool:

Froggy_131
12-29-2005, 19:39
Originally posted by paltic
....please explain these... "better to be tried by 12 than to be carried by 6".. :cool: Better to be tried by 12 jurors (your trial) than to be carried by 6 pole bearers (your funeral).

toxic
12-31-2005, 06:38
Originally posted by cznayr
Well to each his own.. a lot of maybes..

Yung sa amin lang eh, mga suggestions para di mapasubo sa gulo at mapariwara... If you still insist in bringing your gun to the mall just because others are doing it and di ka nakakatiyempo ng oplan bakal at feeling mo eh mapapalaban ka ng barilan sa loob.. well, by all means do so ;f

Yah..cznayr has a point there kanya kanyang trip yan...LNL
its your neck your putting on the line there,
ingat lang at baka matyempuhan ka Sir.

CZnayr Hows CZ forum?..i havent visited there for a Loooooooong time.


Were are our lawyer BOG's tulong po at ng maliwanagan kame.

Django
12-31-2005, 08:50
The "CONDITIONS" in fine print at the back of each Permit To Carry states:

"Pursuant to the existing rules and regulations, this Permit to Carry Firearm Outside of Residence is issued subject to the following conditions:

1. This Permit is non-transferable;
2. The firearm must not be displayed or exposed to public view;
3. The firearm shall not be brought inside public drinking and amusement places and all other commercial or public establishments; and,
4. The unexpired license or authority to possess the firearm must always be carried with this Permit. Expired license must be renewed.

Violations of any of the above conditions will nullify or invalidate this Permit and the Firearm License, and the holder shall be charged for infringement of the law, if evidence warrants."

Loud and clear, cut and dried if you ask me.

Meaning:

1. If you violate the conditions set forth in the back of your PTCFOR, your Permit to Carry as well as your firearm license is nullified or invalidated (cancelled).
2. Simply put, you are now in possession of a firearm without any authority to bring it outside your residence.
3. Worse, since the FA license has been nullified also, you are in possession of an unlicensed (loose) firearm.
4. Commission of a crime using an unlicensed firearm is an aggravating circumstance in our criminal justice system. Aggravating circumstances generally increases the attendant penalty of a criminal offense.

So in the bar scenario, you now have an unlicensed gun in your person since you violated the CONDITIONS in your PTCFOR. Guess what your criminal liability will be when you shoot and kill someone with an unlicensed firearm. I'll bet my last peso that you just won't be doing community service as a penalty.

In the mall scenario, please remember that it is not the duty of the security guard to remind you of the fine print CONDITIONS found at the back of your PTCFOR. In fact I doubt if they are even aware of these conditions. Technically, by bringing your gun inside the mall, you have also violated the CONDITIONS at the back of your PTCFOR. And . . . you guessed it right. You have in your person an unlicensed (loose) firearm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. The CONDITIONS are so stringent that you practically cannot bring your gun anywhere. But that's the way it is so we have to put up with it. Possession of a firearm and more so the permission to carry it outside of your residence is a privelege (defined slanting towards favor) granted and not a matter of right for the citizens of the Republic of the Philippines. As such, it can be regulated or not granted altogether.

Primarily, the raison d'etre why a Permit To Carry is granted to a qualified citizen of this country is because there is a threat to his life and he wants permission from the government to carry his licensed FA outside of his residence to protect himself. The government may grant this request subject to some restrictions, hence the conditions found at the back of the permit.

Unfortunately, in some of the applications for the PTCFORs, the applicant merely concocts allegations of threats just to get the permit. Sometimes the threats are merely perceived or even non-existent.

Other legal minds might have different views on the matter but as the legal maxim goes: "Res ipsa loquitor" or the thing speaks for itself. There is no need to expound it further.

My 2 centavos advice for those with PTCFOR's is to be very discerning on where or when to carry your FAs. That PTCFOR can be nullified and invalidated in a bat of an eyelash.

Unless it is a matter of life and death, leave your FA in your car when you go inside public buildings and commercial places.

There. I hope I did not spoil your New Year. :)

isuzu
12-31-2005, 10:13
Right on, Django! Rules were made for us to follow, and not for an individual or groups to be exempted from them.

Have a Happy New Year!

Punisher_nbi45
01-01-2006, 07:09
Originally posted by casmot
Illegal pocession.

To all,

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Off the top of my head, you will be charged with violation of P.D.1866 as amended by R.A. 9284. Under the said amendment, a legally licensed firearm used in the commission of a crime instantly qualifies it as an unlicensed firearm, i.e, negating your license, PTCFOR, etc.

Depending on the circumstances, you may also be charged with one or more of the following (repeat, depending on the circumstances because, in my experience, it is hard to establish self-defense outright. Again, please correct me if I am wrong):

-murder (with the attendant circumstances)
-homicide
-alarm and scandal
-malicious mischief

I can't remember the other penal provisions that you may be charged with, as I said, it really depends on the circumstances because each shooting case is different and the cases themselves are tried on their own merits.

Hope that helps....

royal glockster
01-02-2006, 07:03
Originally posted by Django
[
2. The firearm must not be displayed or exposed to public view;
[/B]

This is the most violated provision among the PTCFOR holders. As i observed, there are gunholders with PTCFOR who partly displayed their firearms, e.g. wearing jackets where firearm holsters are partly exposed, carrying firearms where the firearm grip is very noticeable. If we will just follow the rules strictly,then i suppose no trouble will occur.

PMMA97
01-02-2006, 07:21
Originally posted by royal glockster
If we will just follow the rules strictly,then i suppose no trouble will occur.

If we follow the rules to the letter it's almost impossible to carry. ;g

royal glockster
01-02-2006, 07:36
Originally posted by PMMA97
If we follow the rules to the letter it's almost impossible to carry. ;g

YES, its really impossible to visibly carry your firearm especially in public places. I prefer the PTT over the PTC, aside from being less costly, you can transport 300 rounds as compared to 50 rounds only. No quantity of PTC's will excused you from criminal or civil liability if you fatally shot someone, bad guys or not. :)

Ersatz0906
01-02-2006, 16:54
Originally posted by royal glockster
No quantity of PTC's will excused you from criminal or civil liability if you fatally shot someone, bad guys or not. :)

true true but without PTC you will be adding another case to your cases ;f

riddler
01-02-2006, 17:24
Originally posted by Django
2. The firearm must not be displayed or exposed to public view;

Originally posted by royal glockster
This is the most violated provision among the PTCFOR holders. As i observed, there are gunholders with PTCFOR who partly displayed their firearms, e.g. wearing jackets where firearm holsters are partly exposed, carrying firearms where the firearm grip is very noticeable.

and you're surprised????

If a firearm is not part of a uniform, showing it off visibly or by implication is pure "yabang".

cznayr
01-02-2006, 19:12
Originally posted by toxic
Yah..cznayr has a point there kanya kanyang trip yan...LNL
its your neck your putting on the line there,
ingat lang at baka matyempuhan ka Sir.

CZnayr Hows CZ forum?..i havent visited there for a Loooooooong time.


Were are our lawyer BOG's tulong po at ng maliwanagan kame.

Recently visited CZforum, it's still the same.. hardcore CZ fanatics with same questions posted over and over again.. Good thing, since members are not fed up with newbies posting questions...