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manny iloilo
01-01-2006, 06:52
;b Happy New Year!!! I just sold my llama 1911 last month. so of i go to the nearest gun dealer in my area, I was planning to purchase a glock 22 but lately, i saw in the net especially in The Gun Zone that glocks have a lot of cases of KB!s. in the US. most of those cases where due to the fact that they where using reloads. have there been cases of KB!s here in the phil.? pls. give inputs. thanks.:) :) :)

nyordak17
01-01-2006, 07:22
Originally posted by manny iloilo
;b Happy New Year!!! I just sold my llama 1911 last month. so of i go to the nearest gun dealer in my area, I was planning to purchase a glock 22 but lately, i saw in the net especially in The Gun Zone that glocks have a lot of cases of KB!s. in the US. most of those cases where due to the fact that they where using reloads. have there been cases of KB!s here in the phil.? pls. give inputs. thanks.:) :) :)


Hi manny! Happy New Year!:) just click the link below:



KB's and Breechface Failures (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=402585&highlight=breech+face)

another glock bites the dust (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=393871&perpage=25&highlight=kaboom&pagenumber=1)

isuzu
01-01-2006, 12:28
If you're using lead reloads, chances are your Glock will experience a KB in some point in life of the firearm. I haven't heard of KBs with people using teflon coated as well as FMJ loads done by a competent reloader.

vega
01-01-2006, 15:43
Leads, teflon or FMJ, there is a chance for Kb if double charge is made in the load. 40S&W nor Glock is not the only FA prone to Kb, I saw a 1911 in 45 Kbed too because of double charge. A competent reloader can also make mistakes, Murphy's law. If you read Gun Zone again, there was a time it was a factory load ammo which caused the Kb or was it here at GT? Don't get the notion that it is only lead that will cause Kb.

vega

jasonub
01-01-2006, 20:31
buy and aftermarket barrel with a supported chamber or just buy another kind of gun with a supported chamber

Putok-Glock
01-01-2006, 20:49
Originally posted by vega
Leads, teflon or FMJ, there is a chance for Kb if double charge is made in the load. 40S&W nor Glock is not the only FA prone to Kb, I saw a 1911 in 45 Kbed too because of double charge. A competent reloader can also make mistakes, Murphy's law. If you read Gun Zone again, there was a time it was a factory load ammo which caused the Kb or was it here at GT? Don't get the notion that it is only lead that will cause Kb.

vega

+1...

And if you have read a lot of this issue, they make it appear that KB's are exclusive and patented to Glock pistols. I suspect this is a marketing strategy. And a vicious one. Since glocks became a big threat to the market share of a more saleable type of pistol, this topic became a major issue against glocks. And this runs until now.

I've had my share of shooting a lot on my glocks, (about 20K rnds/year of 9 and .40, w/c are considered high-pressure round, by the way) ipsc style for 3 consecutive years now using different types/kinds of heads by different makers. So far, no KB and I dont expect to have one. Or else I wont shoot them anymore.

isuzu
01-01-2006, 20:57
Originally posted by Putok-Glock
+1...

And if you have read a lot of this issue, they make it appear that KB's are exclusive and patented to Glock pistols. I suspect this is a marketing strategy. And a vicious one. Since glocks became a big threat to the market share of a more saleable type of pistol, this topic became a major issue against glocks. And this runs until now.

I've had my share of shooting a lot on my glocks, (about 20K rnds/year of 9 and .40, w/c are considered high-pressure round, by the way) ipsc style for 3 consecutive years now using different types/kinds of heads by different makers. So far, no KB and I dont expect to have one. Or else I wont shoot them anymore.

I think it's not a marketing strategy. Even Glockmeister (www.glockmeister.com) who sells Glocks and Glock-related products has a section on KBs. They wouldn't put a section on KBs if this isn't a reality with Glock pistols. Yup, KBs are a fact of life in pistols, but because of the type of barrel used in Glocks, KBs are more common in .40 S & W and .357 Sigs. Still haven't heard a 9mm go KB.

bulm540
01-01-2006, 21:31
A guy that shoots with us, feeds his GLock 24 reloads ( FMJ though- universal or titegroup powder) No problems that he can report. I guess selecting the proper bullet and proper powder is key.

Putok-Glock
01-01-2006, 21:46
Originally posted by isuzu
I think it's not a marketing strategy. ...Yup, KBs are a fact of life in pistols, but because of the type of barrel used in Glocks, KBs are more common in .40 S & W and .357 Sigs. Still haven't heard a 9mm go KB.

Yes, its a fact.. in pistols. And theres this notion of glock chambers being unsupported in the 6 o'clock portion. But the chambers of all pistols using ramped barrels are all unsupported in that portion w/c in its place is the 'ramp.' Its also an issue of how much this ramp goes into the inside of the chamber. Compared to some pistols, glocks' ramp goes much deeper. But Ive seen chambers stock in some other pistols in cal .40 that has a ramp thats a bit deeper than glocks'.

At first glance, this "unsupported" situation seem dangerous. But if a cartridge will fail because of this, the shell will give way before the gas inside can attain a very high pressure enough to cause a disastrous kb. You can compare this to a live ammo thrown into a fire. It will explode but at a very low pressure because the shell is unsupported. A situaton also comes to mind: A shooter had a jam in his 1911 because of a bulged shell. To clear the jam, he forcefully racked the slide backwards causing the extractor to carry the problematic ammo and forcefully hitting its live primer to the tip of the ejector that in turn detonated the primer. The live ammo exploded but only as loud as a squib load inspite of propelant powder inside it. Again, its because the shell is unsupported. Upon investigation, we found the case head separated from the shell body. And the shooter had a minor bruise in his left hand w/c he used to hold the slide while racking it back and inadvertently covered the ejection port of the pistol. But Im not saying that such situation is safe.


What I can say is, this unsupported chamber should not be an issue against glocks or to any pistol w/ ramped barrel. Perhaps the polygonal rifling? I doubt it because some pistols have such rifling in their barrels also but they are not victims of kb allegations as glocks do. Maybe because they are not as saleable as glocks.

Anyway, If anybody is not comfortable or have an iota of doubt as to the safety of a certain gun, then dont buy it.

isuzu
01-01-2006, 22:14
I wasn't talking about the unsupported chamber in Glocks in the 6 o'clock position. What I meant in my previous post is the type of barrel Glocks use which is either polygonal or octagonal profile.

These barrels get fouled with lead more than the conventional barrel which would eventually lead to pressure build-up. Hence, the KB and a section at Glockmeister to warn Glock owners against using lead bullets in their Glocks, with emphasis on the .40 S&W and 357 Sigs.

I've used lead in my Glock 17 and 19 for quite a while, and eventually shifted to teflon coated bullets. Cleaning those Glocks that used lead bullets was quite a task; I had to disassemble the firing pin to get the dirt out. The teflon coated bullets never fouled the Glock.

Kiddo
01-01-2006, 22:27
Get a 9mm nlang to be safe. The Glock 17 is the same size as the 22. :)

Putok-Glock
01-01-2006, 22:40
Originally posted by isuzu
I wasn't talking about the unsupported chamber in Glocks in the 6 o'clock position. What I meant in my previous post is the type of barrel Glocks use which is either polygonal or octagonal.

These barrels get fouled with lead more than the conventional barrel which would eventually lead to pressure build-up. Hence, the KB.

I've used lead in my Glock 17 and 19 for quite a while, and eventually shifted to teflon coated bullets. Cleaning the those Glocks that used lead bullets was quite a task; I had to disassemble the firing pin to get the dirt out. The teflon coated bullets never fouled the Glock.

Somewhere in these forum, Ive stated that I shot a thousand rounds of lead ammo in my G35 w/o cleaning the barrel to see at what extend should I let the lead fouling accumulate before it becomes unsafe to my glock barrel. So far, my G35 is ok and I still stand behind that statement.

You are quite right as to the hardship in cleaning the lead fouling from a polygonally rifled barrel. This is also my reason for using teflon coated heads, but not the danger of a KB.

I also believe that lead foulings dont go into the firing pin channel. Its the powder foulings that I clean whenever I disassemble the firing pin assembly.

Besides, other than glock, some makers use polygonal riflings in their pistols. But why is it that this issue of kb due to polygonal rifling, unsupported chambers, etc. are only attributed to glocks? As Vega said, this phenomenon is true to all types of barrel of all types of pistol. Now, ever wonder why glocks are singled out?

isuzu
01-01-2006, 22:57
Knock yourself out with your G35 experiment.;) Seriously, I'm not going that far to wait for an incident to happen if I had a .40 S&W or a 357 Glock. The writing's on the wall, and I think Glockmeister wouldn't be biased in sending out a warning to Glock .40 and .357 owners. They themselves sell Glock products, and over time there have been documented incidents of KB in Glocks with those calibers using lead bullets. I wouldn't want to prove what has been proven.

For one, Glock wouldn't warranty your firearm should it KB due to lead bullets. The other reason is that you could be risking an injury to yourself or others.

In my experience, a small amount of wax also enters the stiker channel when using lead bullets, and over time this crud accumulates inside the channel. Two things could possibly happen: either the striker won't be able to ignite the primer or the striker could get stuck in the channel; this could discharge a bullet when you chamber a round.

Just my two cents. :)

P.S.

By the way, are you using full power loads or light loads on your G35 with lead bullets?

isuzu
01-01-2006, 23:22
Originally posted by Putok-Glock
A situaton also comes to mind: A shooter had a jam in his 1911 because of a bulged shell. To clear the jam, he forcefully racked the slide backwards causing the extractor to carry the problematic ammo and forcefully hitting its live primer to the tip of the ejector that in turn detonated the primer. The live ammo exploded but only as loud as a squib load inspite of propelant powder inside it. Again, its because the shell is unsupported. Upon investigation, we found the case head separated from the shell body. And the shooter had a minor bruise in his left hand w/c he used to hold the slide while racking it back and inadvertently covered the ejection port of the pistol. But Im not saying that such situation is safe.

That's a disadvantage of a longer than normal ejector, and an improperly tuned 1911. Gunsmiths sometimes trim ejectors when they find it too long to prevent this incident from happening.

batangueno
01-01-2006, 23:46
It's not the polygonal rifling and lead bullets that are causing the KBs. If that's the case then we will be getting similar reports from HK and Jericho owners.

Did Glockmeister specifically mention not to use Lead bullets in Glocks? I think even Glock Inc. itself does not mention not to use lead bullets but "reload" ammo.

Putok-Glock
01-02-2006, 03:09
Originally posted by isuzu
P.S.

By the way, are you using full power loads or light loads on your G35 with lead bullets?

90% of my practice loads have PF>170 for cal .40 on G35 and PF>125 for 9mm on G34. If ever i go below that, it is only 0.2 grains less of powder.

By the way, my experiment was not done w/o consideration to my safety. Also, my posted statements here were not written w/o due consideration to the safety of the reader. Of course the risk is always there. But Im just being factual. I read a lot about the things that interests me such as guns and most of the time I study them carefully so I will not be taken for a ride, and I dont want that to happen to anybody here, thats why I share this info here. I can understand why Glockmeister or any other store posted that info to the contrary. The KB issue is an unnecessary risk to their business, so why not do away w/ it asap? It does not concern whether the issue is true or not.

And Im not a Glock die-hard. Contrary to what Glock Inc. claims, glock pistols are far from perfect. Its just one of my many preferences. And my preferences are derived from careful study of facts. Of course, facts are not written in stone. But Ive gathered them as honestly as I can.

Most of the time the writings on the wall depend on who wrote it and whose wall is it. So, better read what is and who is behind and beyond the wall.

Putok-Glock
01-02-2006, 03:40
Originally posted by isuzu
Knock yourself out with your G35 experiment.;) .. and over time there have been documented incidents of KB in Glocks with those calibers using lead bullets. I wouldn't want to prove what has been proven.

For one, Glock wouldn't warranty your firearm should it KB due to lead bullets. The other reason is that you could be risking an injury to yourself or others.



I had encountered these "documented incidents" in some of my readings. Then it occurred to me, if this is the case, then why are glock pistols not banned in firing ranges in the US where this infos came from? In fact,as far as I know, not a single range bans its usage. Can somebody here please illuminate on this glaring contradiction? Is it really a proven fact? Or was it proven as reported? I've seen pics of broken glock chambers, slides, etc. but what was the real cause of such damages? Bottom line: its up to you to delineate facts from lies.

jasonub
01-02-2006, 04:58
its the combination of the unsupported chamber, high pressure rounds, and leading on polygonal rifling.

the pressure is high and gets higher with lead clogging the barrel and the weakest point seems to be the case on the unsupported part of the chamber.

the hk and the jerico has polygonal barrels but the cases are fully supported.

get a 1911 so you wont have any problems :) I have tested a lot of pistols and my favorite for matches is the 1911. for accuracy its the sig, for simplicity the glock.

When i was carrying i got the hk usp and never went back. carrying 12 rounds of 45 acp on a plastic light gun that i can hit bianchi plates consistently at 50 meters, rust resistant except for the slide stop. i was in love with it.

try the glock and others too before you buy. I doubt that you will shoot it much for it to get damaged. though i shot my usp for about 30,000 plus rounds (lead). about 5000 rounds plated/fmj in 2 years without failure about 180 pf when 175 was the minimum floor level for major. Not to mention a few hundred rounds of 45 super with about 250 pf;g

Allegra
01-02-2006, 05:30
My goodness , ang haba ng mga posts kaya I'll keep mine short and sweet

It's bec. people use 40 reloads from their 1911 on their glocks
Lalo na yung mga IPSC loads tailored for their standard pistols
Sigurado sasabog talaga yun , imagine using fast burning powders on heavy heads tapos ipapareho ang OAL sa standard 40cal.
Ayun KB
Dami kasi nag eexperimento sa recipes ang lakas pa naman ng pressure ng 40cal

Wala naman incident ng kb on +p 40 cal di ba , so it shouldnt be the unsuppored barrel
It doeasnt happen w/ leads on the 9mm di ba , sa 40 lang

Django
01-02-2006, 06:36
Originally posted by manny iloilo
I was planning to purchase a glock 22 . . .

Depends on what your plans are for your gun.

If you're into IPSC, you're better off with a Glock 17 if you're eyeing the Production Division. Go for the Hi-cap 1911 platforms if you want go with the Standard crowd.

But if you want a defensive handgun which you will probably shoot a couple of rounds on some weekends, then a Glock 22 would be perfect.

Really depends on what you intend to do with your gun.

Ah, but if you want to go over to the dark side and choose the Open Division, that will be another exciting thread.;f

vega
01-02-2006, 12:09
Originally posted by isuzu
I think it's not a marketing strategy. Even Glockmeister (www.glockmeister.com) who sells Glocks and Glock-related products has a section on KBs. They wouldn't put a section on KBs if this isn't a reality with Glock pistols. Yup, KBs are a fact of life in pistols, but because of the type of barrel used in Glocks, KBs are more common in .40 S & W and .357 Sigs. Still haven't heard a 9mm go KB.

If they use the same type of barrel. then how come it doesn't happen on 9mm? You said in your later post it's because of the rifling not the supported or unsupported chamber. I believe most Kbs happens because of the unsupported chamber. If the polygonal or octagonal rifling is the cause then we should here some report from 9mm owners, don't you think so?

Originally posted by isuzu
In my experience, a small amount of wax also enters the stiker channel when using lead bullets, and over time this crud accumulates inside the channel. Two things could possibly happen: either the striker won't be able to ignite the primer or the striker could get stuck in the channel; this could discharge a bullet when you chamber a round.
This could happen on any other FAs IMHO.

I suggest reading the article again.
http://glockmeister.com/failure.shtml

Or if there's another article which I missed, please provide a link.

vega

Ersatz0906
01-02-2006, 16:48
for me the main reason for KB is the case failure...

so I ask you guys with Glock .40, how many times you reuse your Brass .40?

Putok-Glock
01-03-2006, 02:37
Originally posted by Ersatz0906
for me the main reason for KB is the case failure...

so I ask you guys with Glock .40, how many times you reuse your Brass .40?

Until the shell cracks. That is 7x or more. Even if they are severely bulged they still chamber to my glock barrel but never on my kkm barrel. That makes them glocks ultra reliable.

Putok-Glock
01-03-2006, 02:45
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jasonub
[B]
...get a 1911 so you wont have any problems :) I have tested a lot of pistols and my favorite for matches is the 1911. for accuracy its the sig, for simplicity the glock.

.....

try the glock and others too before you buy. I doubt that you will shoot it much for it to get damaged...[B]

+1^c ^c

jasonub
01-03-2006, 04:23
Originally posted by Ersatz0906
for me the main reason for KB is the case failure...

so I ask you guys with Glock .40, how many times you reuse your Brass .40?

dont have a glock but for my 1911 40 its.... till it cracks, maybe 20x or so:) the name winchester cant be read in some of my cases;f

Django
01-03-2006, 06:00
If any of you guys care to do some interesting reading on Kabooms, do a forum jump to General Glocking. There is an 11 page sticky exclusively dedicated to KB's.

Putok-Glock
01-03-2006, 06:28
Originally posted by Django
If any of you guys care to do some interesting reading on Kabooms, do a forum jump to General Glocking. There is an 11 page sticky exclusively dedicated to KB's.

Been there, and its quite interesting ... and amusing...no more no less. ;P

isuzu
01-03-2006, 17:09
Hi Vega,

What I meant is that the polygonal or octagonal rifling fouls much more than conventional barrel when you use lead. Pressure builds up when the barrel gets constricted, and problems start.

I've used lead on my G17 for a while when teflon coated bullets were still scarce, and my G17 never had a problem in terms of KBs, but the gun experienced firing in bursts. We later found out that the striker channel was very dirty.

When I used teflon coated bullets on the G17 and eventually on the G19 which I later purchased, my Glocks functioned well.

jlkwison
01-06-2006, 14:36
Hi Bogs, Happy New Year!

I've been reading the posts regarding KBs...it made me dizzy :)

For me, KB "CAN HAPPEN" to any pistol - polymer, steel, polygonal or not. With a Glock, one might get bruised hands as seen in many Glock KB images, a bad thing one might think w/ regards to polymer pistols...well not really. One should also have a glimpse of KB incidents on other types of pistols to see how it compares. All-Steel pistols can also potentially injure a user in a KB as can be seen in the following incident which involved a Range Officer in Angeles City.

A range officer in Angeles City once told me of a 40 cal 1911 kboom that happened to him. Nothing happened to his hands he said, but he told me of the chilling close up view he got of the pistol's extractor! The 1911's extractor flew to the direction of one of his eyes in the KB. He was wearing eye protection at the time so thankfully he sustained no injuries. But he said, the force of the impact was enough to put an eye out and he was so thankful that he was wearing eye protection at the time. Well of course, not all 1911 KBs will result to flying extractors and I think it also goes for the Glock...some get bruised some don't. What is important though is that you wear protection and be sure of your ammo.