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kamelot
01-13-2006, 03:11
Please educate me on this. I was with a "CQB practitioner" this afternoon and he mentioned that one difference between IPSC and CQB is that they keep their finger ON THE TRIGGER AT ALL TIMES unlike us. I couldn't believe what I heard. Our Gun Safety Rule (irregardless of discipline) states to keep the finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

Also is it true that our local IDPA (I don't practice this, only IPSC) is not recognized internationally? What do you CQB guys and IDPA shooters say about this? I'm just inquiring. thanks in advance for the info.

mikey177
01-13-2006, 03:23
...one difference between IPSC and CQB is that they keep their finger ON THE TRIGGER AT ALL TIMES unlike us

Sounds like a negligent discharge waiting to happen ;P

What is a CQB practitioner anyway? Is he part of some high-speed low-drag SWAT unit or something?

Eye Cutter
01-13-2006, 06:42
trigger finger in was popular in the 80's!

current training doctrine is trigger finger out.

PMMA97
01-13-2006, 06:57
INS CQB operative?

http://home.pacbell.net/rsdotson/images/fed_gun.jpg

http://www.americanreformation.org/images/safety.gif

batangueno
01-13-2006, 07:14
I'd suppose your "CQB Practitioner" friend also swears by the Weaver stance. ;f I do remember gun fighting expert Gabe Suarez teaches to put your finger on the trigger starting from the draw. ;P

Yes, our local IDPA is not recognized officially.

Toby1006Glock
01-13-2006, 07:27
Sir, as per the Navy Seals DVD instruction video on Close Quarter Battles (CQB) by Combat Concepts, it should always be trigger-finger out but firearm should be always on the "quick-kill" position or stance, may it be an assault rifle or pistol. The ex-US Navy Seals instructors point out that keeping your trigger finger off the trigger lessens injuring yourself or your buddy infront of you during an assault. Anyway, mabilis naman to put the trigger-finger in, if the need arises. Still the instructors emphasized that while moving towards or away from your target, your firearm should always be levelled in away that you can point your firearm quickly towards your target. Operator should always level the firearm that it puts the target / badguy under duress seeing a firearm pointed his way. Still, it's better trigger-finger off rather than "KA-BOOM! Shet, ay sorry bro natamaan kita. "

PMMA97, I think that INS CQB operation you have shown was the one that they had to take away the Cuban boy from his relatives in the US. The boy lost his mother (thanks horge :-)) at sea when they tried to flee Cuba for the USA. Unfortunately, the INS had no choice but to repatriate the boy back to relatives in Cuba.

God bless!

casmot
01-13-2006, 09:46
Yup, our IDPA is not recognized internationally. The irony of it, is that one of the founding members of IDPA is a Pinoy. He didn't register is gunclub anymore because he no longer believes in IDPA.

Punisher_nbi45
01-13-2006, 10:45
Just as mikey177 said, "What is a CQB practitioner?"

When I was still part of the Corps, one of the very first things we were taught was trigger finger out - whether we were charging up a hill, doing MOUT exercises, patrolling, etc.

I kinda learned the hard way what happens if you keep your finger in the trigger and you suddenly slip, bump your hand, or suddenly have your hand close (along with the sympathetic reaction of the fingers!) Good thing we were only using blanks but I had a heck of a time explaining to my platoon mates what happened.

I just have to say, whoever this "CQB practitioner" is, I don't want to have him behind me whenever I have to do an entry. Somebody who believes in that type of trigger discipline is an "accident" waiting to happen - just ask anybody who has to work and do ops with him! I'm sure they'll be itching to give his technique a try if he AD's near any of them, although I'm sure their AD's would be a lot closer than his!;f

horge
01-13-2006, 14:26
Elian Gonzalez lost his mother at sea.
It was his father back in Cuba who rightfully reclaimed him.
:)


As for trigger in, or out.
Doc is correct: it was not so long go that trigger-finger-in was standard,
and was so for many decades prior. It seemed to get the job done,
or we'd be speaking Japanese today.

I've never been in the Services, but I'm thinking along these lines:
Charging up a hill, etc. is one thing, but once the enemy's in
spitting distance, priorities on safety change. We're talking CQB, right?

Stacked for breach, sure: low ready, finger out... but once in the hole,
it's NOT that easy to get your finger on the trigger in time,
especially when the enemy may be lying in wait.

I think that, in unfamiliar, hostile terrain with risk of being ambushed,
the primary danger is the enemy, rather than yourselves:
You neuter the primary danger by shooting it first.

Although they are the best way for civilians to train initially,
(and frankly, I wish every armed Filipino was able to afford them)
I think IPSC, IDPA etc. are games wherein the primary danger IS yourselves:
You neuter the primary danger via "4 rules" protocols.



And yet, people have AD'd in IPSC matches, yes?
People have been accidentally shot at IPSC matches, yes?

Humans will err, and one of the easiest errors is to presume
that one's ways are best for everyone else; and/or that
one's situation/context is universal.

Talk is cheap, and that's all I'm doing ;)


JMO, YMMV, TANSTAAFL, Monimus et. al.
horge

Benj
01-13-2006, 17:54
Originally posted by horge
(and frankly, I wish every armed Filipino was able to afford them)


Speaking of which, are there such institutions here in the Philippines that offer CQB handgun courses for civilians? Kind of like gunsite or thunderranch in the US.

jerrytrini
01-13-2006, 18:21
I totally disagree with "CQB Practitioner". I have never heard of this method. I would like to know his rationale on this.

Here's my $.02 cents, he will never be my partner (if he's a cop) nor break down a door with him. Furthermore, I will never be the RO for him nor shoot IPSC with him nor make a felony veh stop with him. NUFF said.

I just hope he is on line and able to read this rant of mine.

isuzu
01-13-2006, 20:17
Originally posted by jerrytrini
I totally disagree with "CQB Practitioner". I have never heard of this method. I would like to know his rationale on this.

Here's my $.02 cents, he will never be my partner (if he's a cop) nor break down a door with him. Furthermore, I will never be the RO for him nor shoot IPSC with him nor make a felony veh stop with him. NUFF said.

I just hope he is on line and able to read this rant of mine.

You're not ranting, JT. You're just telling the truth;) I read in an old gun magazine (years ago) that trigger finger pressure could reach more than 20 lbs in stress situations.

Punisher_nbi45
01-15-2006, 00:40
I'm not starting a flame war here but I really disagree with what Horge said, so just take my opinions at face value. You don't have to agree with me, I'm just speaking out what I know.

edited for brevity
------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by horge

As for trigger in, or out.
Doc is correct: it was not so long go that trigger-finger-in was standard,
and was so for many decades prior. It seemed to get the job done,
or we'd be speaking Japanese today.

I've never been in the Services, but I'm thinking along these lines:
Charging up a hill, etc. is one thing, but once the enemy's in
spitting distance, priorities on safety change. We're talking CQB, right?

Stacked for breach, sure: low ready, finger out... but once in the hole,
it's NOT that easy to get your finger on the trigger in time,
especially when the enemy may be lying in wait.

I think that, in unfamiliar, hostile terrain with risk of being ambushed,
the primary danger is the enemy, rather than yourselves:
You neuter the primary danger by shooting it first.

Although they are the best way for civilians to train initially,
(and frankly, I wish every armed Filipino was able to afford them)
I think IPSC, IDPA etc. are games wherein the primary danger IS yourselves:
You neuter the primary danger via "4 rules" protocols.

And yet, people have AD'd in IPSC matches, yes?
People have been accidentally shot at IPSC matches, yes?

Humans will err, and one of the easiest errors is to presume
that one's ways are best for everyone else; and/or that
one's situation/context is universal.

Talk is cheap, and that's all I'm doing ;)


JMO, YMMV, TANSTAAFL, Monimus et. al.
horge [/B]

-----------------------------------------------------------

It should not matter whether you're playing IPSC, doing CQB, or charging up a hill - using a firearm is dangerous enough as it is without having to add to the likelihood of "friendly fire" or "accidental discharge" due to unsafe firearms practices.

And if you had your finger placed correctly OUTSIDE the trigger, getting it in isn't really all that slow. That is what training is for. Besides, it not the person who gets to to fire first that always wins. It's the person who is smart enough to "see" his opponent first (while not being seen), or one who takes his opponent by surprse, or if your on the defensive, the one who outsmarts his opponent, wins. There is more to CQB (or any type of fighting, for that matter), than just getting the first shot out. Besides, in CQB, you're not supposed to blindly rush in because you've already assumed that the person is hiding. Like I said, there are a lot of dynamic factors involved in CQB ops, but being unsafe is not one of them.

What it think is important to remember here is that in any type of strenous activity involving firearms, the potential to get hurt is always there. That's why we train to have the trigger finger out in order to minimize the harm to ourselves and to others. That is also the reason why we train repeatedly in order to get the muscle memory down and have it hardwired into our system so we could accomplish it the fastest way possible and in the safest manner.

Frankly, i agree with isuzu and jerrytrini. It may look macho to have your trigger finger in while doing an entry and conducting a search, but if you would have an AD because you got bumped in the hand or if you get a hell of a startle, i wonder what the guy in front of you would say if he suddenly finds himself with a hole where it should not be. Let's not forget the civilians who might suddenly pop up in front of you as you're clearing a room. What happens if you suddenly have sympathetic muscle contraction in your gun hand due to being startled? You may be the best CQB-trained, most high-speed, low drag operator in the world, but as they say, Murphy always has a way of gumming up the works and he will first chance he gets.

I do agree that you should have your trigger finger in the trigger in CERTAIN situations - like if you are faced with an assailant or multiple assailants AFTER you have verified that they are the bad guys, after you have aimed and are preparing to fire at them, and after you have done a quick (as in real-quick) assessment of the situation and are sure of your targets, backstop, location of any innocent civilians (if any) within your area, etc., and you have made the commitment to fire.

Aside from that, there are also the legal ramifications. The appearance of having your finger on the trigger is, in my opinion, very negative and can be easily attacked by a defense or class-action lawyer as "aggressive" and "showing a wanton disregard for safety".

As horge said, talk is cheap. I don't presume to know everything about anything, and YMMV. People can listen to me and say that I'm just full of bs, but I don't care. I know what works for me and I know what works without getting others killed. In situations wherein there is the question of speed over safety, I think I'll go with safety, especially when other lives are at stake and not just my own. Just my P2 pesos worth.

I hope that "CQB practitioner" gets to read this too.

jasonub
01-15-2006, 01:36
Ipsc trigger in? thats a negligent discharge waiting to happen. most ipsc shooters have sub 2 pound trigger pulls.

mine breaks at 1.2 pounds.

We will never. never, never advocate trigger finger in.

Arpee
01-15-2006, 03:49
I agree with Jasonub....

I've been a Range Officer before in IPSC competition for almost a year. With my short span of being an RO, I've seen accidental discharges even by the most experienced shooters.

Even if they are under pressure to beat a certain time, these shooters are having fun at that time. What more if there is really a danger.

just my 2 cents worth :)

horge
01-15-2006, 05:12
Hi Punisher! :)

No flame at all!
I trust you don't suspect me of advocating fingering the trigger all the time.
(I'd point out my comments re pre-breach stacking as an example)

Yes of course, at some point, the operator has to make the judgement call on
when engagement (or cause highly indicative thereof) is imminent.
As you essentially pointed out... you need to finger the trigger
when you're about to shoot.

My point is that some environments may conceivably be so severe
as to effectively demand the trigger fingered for length.
We have no real idea of the context in which this 'CQB Practitioner'
was commenting.

JerryT is presumably speaking from the POV of police CQB, which
is said to be a markedly different proposition from 'military CQB':
a friendly vs. a hostile population as an operating environment.
Admittedly, recent military excursions (and enemy cowardice,
hiding among civilians) may have begun to blur any distinction.
I'm quite grateful for Jerry's post, as he's 'in the business',
and I value yours no less, in the same spirit.

My first puzzlement was:
Did not US LEO's of just a few decades ago keep their triggers fingered?
US servicemen?

New, light triggers, as on a certain current US-LEO issue, may
have taught their users to avoid unnecessary trigger contact.
It's more pronounced with DELIBERATELY custom-lightened triggers, as are
prevalent with gamers' pistols... and that's near the root of my
discomfort. (I'll get to that in a bit, with regard to Jason's comment).

I have been making the (extremely charitable, and Christian)
assumption that this so-called 'CQB Practitioner' is:

a. the real thing, with real experience
b. talking about military CQB (not MOUTS, indeed)
c. talking about mil-spec heavier triggers (The first DA pull on an M9 ~ 12lbs, right?)
d. most importantly, speaking within the context of imminent engagement

I'm morbidly fascinated with the extreme of his/her advocacy:
it's not something I would do, though (again) up until very recently
it was what ALL operators did.

Unfortunately 'CQB Practitioner' doesn't seem to be here to offer explication.
Hence all my tree-shaking.

Nice to have something substantial fall out. Thanks again for posting.
:)


Originally posted by Jason
Ipsc trigger in? thats a negligent discharge waiting to happen. most ipsc shooters have sub 2 pound trigger pulls.
mine breaks at 1.2 pounds.
We will never. never, never advocate trigger finger in.

It's a good thing Jason specified 'IPSC' :)
Of course, the IPSC is precisely not what
"CQB Practitioner" was advocating his'technique' for.
Anyway, here's what's bugging me, or rather,
here's an attempt to describe what's nagging me...

A trigger lightened to nearly than a third(?) of original spec
is a deliberate and significant compromise of safety,
for the sake of game performance, yes?

So...
If you can argue that a severely-lightened trigger is excusable
for the sake of a game, because you have trained hard on '4 Rules'
to negate it as a safety issue;

Then I wonder if an operator can't argue that he can train as hard,
to negate as a safety issue the practice of parking a finger
in the well of a so-much-heavier trigger for certain stretches
of a high-risk op.

I hadn't quite put my finger (hehe) on it the last post...
But my earlier questions to the highly trained, 4-Rules-ingrained,
IPSC/IDPA masters and veteran shooters on this board

(-Haven't you had AD's during competition, despite the roted 4 Rules?
-Hasn't someone gotten shot during a competition, without hostiles around?)

actually stemmed from an (err..) fascination with this issue of relativity attending
deliberate compromise as suits one specific purpose versus another
(or as suits one problem set rather than another), with similar-looking
but quite different tools and approaches between them.


Again, just rambling: my talk is cheap.
(I will plead though, that talk may be the object of this forum)
;)


h.

Eye Cutter
01-15-2006, 05:21
http://www.hafdis.dk/pictures/silly/animals/The%203%20monkeys.jpg

innnncommmminnnnggggg!!!!!!

Eye Cutter
01-15-2006, 05:24
http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/mushroomcloud-37024.jpg

horge
01-15-2006, 05:36
;f ;f ;f

Punisher_nbi45
01-15-2006, 06:22
Thanks for the post, Horge!;f

I hope that I didn't rub anybody the wrong way, it's just that this is a subject I'm passionate of.

First off, I am no "tactical" instructor, nor am I currently a part of whatever high speed unit here. I am just basing my opinions on my experiences and observations, both as a jarhead and as an LEO. At the same time, I know a lot of people go to this forum, especially newbies, and I just didn't want to give them any wrong impression solely based on the safety aspect. I guess it's just my personality to speak out, but I would like to think that I could share even a little bit of knowledge based on my unique position. Again, just my opinions, nothing more, nothing less.
;)

As i said, I agree with you all that there are certain situations where you would want your trigger finger in...such as engaging multiple opponents, etc. But that is in the context of actually shooting at them already. When on the move, whether it be CQB movement, patrol, whatever, I still believe safety should be the overriding concern, thus, I will always advocate trigger finger in until the situation dictates that quick and accurate shooting be done.

I just believe that some rules may be broken in other arenas, but not in life, and especially not when lives that need to be saved are at stake. So in reality, I am not against anybody in BOG, just that particular "CQB Practitioner" who is advocating this dangerous principle in the first place.

Yes, there were some units that practiced this (some even practiced Condition Zero with 1911s, safety off and live round loaded). However, in today's modern military, it is not practiced as such, especially in MOUT or other urban exercises. The degree of mistakes that can happen, the likelihood of mechanical failure of triggers, etc., is not taken lightly, thus, we were always taught to keep ours out. Also, there are some differences, but there is a great similarity in CQB and MOUT and, at least in my experience, they also share some fundamental principles. Having triggers out until you fire is one of them. :)

9MX
01-15-2006, 06:40
trigger finger in or out? ;f

i remember this story from a LEO friend of mine, iirc, it happened after an operation. one of their colleagues had an AD and the bullet hit one of their team members in the gut. luckily he survived, but each of them pitched in for the hospital bills. i think no charges were filed, only administrative. probably due to their "brotherhood"

Allegra
01-15-2006, 07:50
The only time I know LEO'Mil had their trigger fingers on the trigger is when using DA pistols/rev. Then they'd decock after a lull in the shooting and start again w/ fingers on the trgger.
Meron training accident as I recall

Baka the CQB dude meant , finger on the trigger pag multiple dversaries?


From low ready to high ready to full presentation, wala naman difference sila sa time kung nasa trigger o wala ang finger mo
Anyway , if there is anyone w/ a reason to keep their fingers on the trigger it would be IPSC shooters , since the ability to shoot the target fast is the objective.

Allegra
01-15-2006, 09:16
Originally posted by Benj
Speaking of which, are there such institutions here in the Philippines that offer CQB handgun courses for civilians? Kind of like gunsite or thunderranch in the US.


Kung may grupo ka
I know an American instructor willing magpunta dito
Was supposed to take his course ( sa kanila ) kaso nawala na nga interest ko sa guns
Pero bilib ako sa curriculum nya ( shooting is just a small part )
Mind set , mental awareness, using colors pag identify ng use of cover , hand to hand , disarming etc etc
Tsaka pamatay ang shooting from retention nya hehe di mo maagaw ang baril

mikey177
01-15-2006, 18:10
Here are some impassioned threads from Warrior Talk that discuss this "finger on the trigger" issue:
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=1190
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=5277
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=5819

Allegra,

Any hint as to who this US instructor is and how much the course would cost?

jasonub
01-15-2006, 18:22
IPSC production shooters also have their fingers off their triggers. first shot should have a minimum 5 pounds.

their times are practically the same as standard shooters in any cof. Well those who know how to shoot. Dave S even beat every standard shooter in one of the cofs in the world shoot using a stock glock 17.

none of these people have their fingers on the trigger when not shootin. and no performance gain will be realized using such a technique. the only gain will be an ND and nothing else. well maybe one hates the guy in front of him when stacking for cqb. then theres another gain;f

isuzu
01-15-2006, 19:21
Originally posted by Allegra
Kung may grupo ka
I know an American instructor willing magpunta dito
Was supposed to take his course ( sa kanila ) kaso nawala na nga interest ko sa guns
Pero bilib ako sa curriculum nya ( shooting is just a small part )
Mind set , mental awareness, using colors pag identify ng use of cover , hand to hand , disarming etc etc
Tsaka pamatay ang shooting from retention nya hehe di mo maagaw ang baril

I experienced that also when I was still in the Philippines. He was an Israeli-trained individual. When he told us to bring not more than 50 rounds, we thought he was a strange guy. Sure enough, we only fired about 20 rounds each and we were all smiling after the course (I was still using the Browning MK III then). I remember that those who brought non-carry holsters had a big X of masking tape marked on their backs. Tactical reloads and a big emphasis on mental awareness was very important to him.

There were lots of things that the guy taught us, and shooting was just part of it.

kamelot
01-16-2006, 02:22
Originally posted by Allegra

Baka the CQB dude meant , finger on the trigger pag multiple dversaries?


Actually when I heard him say "trigger on the finger" at all times, I suddenly had an earache. I found an excuse to leave his presence right away.:) I've been shooting since 1982 and this was not the way I was taught. If ever I see him again, maybe I will have to ask him to explain, even if it pains me to listen.:)

9MX
01-16-2006, 06:33
Originally posted by jasonub
their times are practically the same as standard shooters in any cof. Well those who know how to shoot.


psssttt..ouch ha:soap:

Allegra
01-16-2006, 17:32
Originally posted by mikey177
Here are some impassioned threads from Warrior Talk that discuss this "finger on the trigger" issue:
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=1190
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=5277
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=5819

Allegra,

Any hint as to who this US instructor is and how much the course would cost?


Steve Silverman of FRI, I'm not sure how much na ngayon , 3 years ago pa kasi yun eh

jasonub
01-16-2006, 18:58
Originally posted by 9MX
psssttt..ouch ha:soap:


he he sorry. layo pa natin sa time and hits. Si bengie lang malapit sa time ng us shooters but hits are not as good as our counterparts.

Ill be experimenting on speed and see what happens. Actually i started last weekend but disaster ang nagyari.

Will just continue to do that till i get it right. Have to swallow my pride and accept to lose by a lot in the near shoots.

when i get it right it will be fantastic. imagine bengies time with 3 to 4 down on a long course

sakit ko daw kasi mamiso miso. though it lands me near the top and sometimes on the top, it is not good enough.

Ah back to the drawing board

mc_oliver
01-16-2006, 20:51
Originally posted by jasonub
he he sorry. layo pa natin sa time and hits. Si bengie lang malapit sa time ng us shooters but hits are not as good as our counterparts.

Ill be experimenting on speed and see what happens. Actually i started last weekend but disaster ang nagyari.

Will just continue to do that till i get it right. Have to swallow my pride and accept to lose by a lot in the near shoots.

when i get it right it will be fantastic. imagine bengies time with 3 to 4 down on a long course

sakit ko daw kasi mamiso miso. though it lands me near the top and sometimes on the top, it is not good enough.

Ah back to the drawing board
Psst,..dude, panoorin mo ako next time.

NYAHAHAHAHHAA!!! Kelagan ng hangin 'tong thread na 'to para ma-disperse!!! ;f;f;f;c

Chie
01-16-2006, 21:16
Naku eh di pag ako na tumira pang 10 piso, benteng buo at 50 buo ang style ng tira ko! ;f

Originally posted by jasonub


sakit ko daw kasi mamiso miso. though it lands me near the top and sometimes on the top, it is not good enough.

jasonub
01-16-2006, 22:58
pag namiso miso ka and your moves in and out of position is correct quick fast and efficient, its enough to get you to about 90-95%

well assumption ko lang yan ha and based on the matches i participated in.

pero yung top 5 % dapat talaga mabilis lahat. tapping and movement.

before ang long course ko is about 25-27 seconds for 32 rounds average. now if i get 25 seconds, mali na. It should be 19-22 seconds max average. But the course of fire still dictates the time pero sa design natin dito. If you get 25 seconds talo ka na:(

When you get 22 seconds, yan may laban kang maganda.

When you get 18-19 seconds factor ka na as long as your hits are there and you dont drop too many points.

sa medium and short di ko pa masyadong alam but its the long courses that make or break you in matches. Well generally speaking;g

st. matthew
01-17-2006, 03:44
pardon da ignorance, anong ibig sabihin ng mamiso miso;J

batangueno
01-17-2006, 07:47
Originally posted by st. matthew
pardon da ignorance, anong ibig sabihin ng mamiso miso;J
Pa-isa-isa ang putok for accuracy instead of speed. :)

kamelot
01-17-2006, 09:08
Originally posted by st. matthew
pardon da ignorance, anong ibig sabihin ng mamiso miso;J

O kaya e namemersentahe.:)

st. matthew
01-17-2006, 21:16
aa, salamats sirs

GunBomB
01-18-2006, 03:40
Jesus this thread is insane!

PMMA97
01-18-2006, 05:42
Originally posted by GunBomB
Jesus this thread is insane!

;m ;m ;m