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horge
01-19-2006, 17:26
Just for fun... subukan n'yo lang if you like!
:) :) :) :) :) :)




1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?

2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines?

3. What is the shortest legal barrel length for a shotgun in the Philippines?

4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines?

5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of handguns.

6. Who formulated the '4 Basic Rules' of Firearm Safety?

7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended?

8. Who has historical priority on the 'Armscor' name, the Tuasons or the South Africans?

9. Name the 3 oldest operating gun dealers in the Philippines.

10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006?


Bonus question:
11. What is the single biggest flaw to Ballistic Fingerprinting as a crimefighting tool, within the context of present FED Licensing Rules, Requlations and Requirements?





:)
-horge

9MX
01-19-2006, 18:29
Originally posted by horge
Just for fun... subukan n'yo lang if you like!
:) :) :) :) :) :)




1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?-some people get to milk juan dela cruz on the side ;f

2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines? - duh

3. What is the shortest legal barrel length for a shotgun in the Philippines? -such a prohibition exists? ;Q

4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines? - Twin Pines?

5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of handguns. - Armscor, SAM.. you mean there is more? ;G

6. Who formulated the '4 Basic Rules' of Firearm Safety? - Somebody from the USA

7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended? - IIRC, it was triggered by the assasination of Pasig Mayoralty aspirant Henry Lanot, who by the way was shot ba a pistol wielding perp. This coupled with incompetence of.....(you guess):soap:

8. Who has historical priority on the 'Armscor' name, the Tuasons or the South Africans? -Tuasons

9. Name the 3 oldest operating gun dealers in the Philippines. - Armscor, PB Dionisio, Squires Bingham?

10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006? - Armscor?


Bonus question:
11. What is the single biggest flaw to Ballistic Fingerprinting as a crimefighting tool, within the context of present FED Licensing Rules, Requlations and Requirements? -Its not really performed, no database maintained.





:)
-horge

horge,

tough questions?!just a little boob job and you can probably give kris aquino a run for her money ;f

isuzu
01-19-2006, 18:47
Horge,

Partial lang ha.

3. 18.5 in.
4. Twin Pines
5. Armscor, SAM, Rock Island, Squires Bingham, Cortez (Cebu)
8. South Africa
9. Squires Bingham, E de Leon, Tabacalera (I think they sold firearms aside from tobacco)
10. Armscor, Government Arsenal (BMP)

vega
01-19-2006, 18:49
1. In case your FA gets lost while being processed at FED, you get to claim certain figure from the insurance.

2. You mentioned that before in one of your threads, but I can't re-call and too lazy to search.

3. 16

4. Twin Pines

5. .Armscor, SAM, didn't know there were others.

6. Col. J. Cooper

7. Whim of the president.

8. South Africans ARMSCORP

9. Squires....

10. ?
Bonus question:
11. Have you seen the balde-balde of firger printed bullets in Crame?

horge
01-19-2006, 18:57
Mannix, 2 out of 10
isuzu, 1 out of 10 due to a technicality ;)
vega, 1 1/2 out of 10 on a technicality ;)

I'm not telling which ones you got right
until someone gets at least 6 of them right!!!!!!!
Or until someone bribes me properly!!!
Or.... or at least until Wednesday comes around!!!

;f ;f ;f
horge


Mannix,
I've met and/or run into Berning a few times, over the past few decades,
and it'll take more surgery/treatment than just that.
She had incredible skin every time.

darwin25
01-19-2006, 19:12
Originally posted by horge
Just for fun... subukan n'yo lang if you like!
:) :) :) :) :) :)




1. Wala lang.

2. ???

3. 18 inches

4. AFP

5. Shooters, Armscor, Squires Bingham, Stirling, Elisco

6. James Cooper?

7. Trip lang nila

8. Tuasons

9. AFP, PNP, CAFGU.

10.Armscor???


Bonus question:

11.Lots of undocumented / unregistered firearms

horge
01-19-2006, 19:19
;f
Lupit mo, darwin...

Kung licensed dealer talaga ang AFP, pnalo ka na, kaso dehins , e.
0 for 10, I think.

:)

darwin25
01-19-2006, 19:23
Originally posted by horge
;f
Lupit mo, darwin...

Kung licensed dealer talaga ang AFP, pnalo ka na, kaso dehins , e.
0 for 10, I think.

:)

EHEHEHEHE;f

Evan N. Payawal
01-19-2006, 19:26
#11 lang po hulaan ko:

The FED recognizes the serialized frame only as the firearm. Therefore, you can switch anything else legally, including the barrel, and still have the same firearm license number.

i_am_infinity
01-19-2006, 19:40
Darwin, bakit pati si james cooper dinadamay mo dyan?? baka magsalit sayo at bigyan ka ng hair cut! ahehehe ;)

1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees? - MONEY...

2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines? THE GOV'T IS AFRIAD NA BAKA PATI FOREIGNERS SUMAMA SA MGA RALLY MAY DALANG BARIL :)

3. What is the shortest legal barrel length for a shotgun in the Philippines? SORRY I DON'T KNOW

4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines? HAHN MANILA

5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of handguns. SHOOTERS, ARMSCOR, ROCK ISLAND, PALTIC...HAHAHA ;)

6. Who formulated the '4 Basic Rules' of Firearm Safety? COL. JEFF COPPER FOUNDER OF IPSC

7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended? TAKOT LANG GOBYERNO SA ARMED CITIZEN..BUT SERIOUSLY THEY THINK BY BANNING IT THEYT THINK THAT THEY WILL LOWER CRIMINALITY, EH HINDI NAMAN LEGAL MGA BARIL NG MGA CRIMINAL EH DIBA? WHERE'S THE LOGIC????

8. Who has historical priority on the 'Armscor' name, the Tuasons or the South Africans? I HAVE NO IDEA

9. Name the 3 oldest operating gun dealers in the Philippines. TWIN PINES, ON TARGET, AND FINAL OPTION??

10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006? ARMSCOR


Bonus question:
11. What is the single biggest flaw to Ballistic Fingerprinting as a crimefighting tool, within the context of present FED Licensing Rules, Requlations and Requirements? - MONEY...CORRUPTION...LAHAT KASI PWEDE BAYARAN EH.

horge
01-19-2006, 19:43
Daya mo Evan...

you have to try to guess all 10/11....
Buking tuloy ako ngayon:
Evan 1 out of 11.
(so, 0 out of 10 ka pa rin!!!!!!! Mwahahahahaha!!!!)

Yes.
Ballistics testing fingerprints the BARREL mostly
(breechface din, if you count casings).

Never mind the truth that firing changes the rifling signature
of a barrel over extensive use, the bottom line is that it is only
frames/receivers that are required to bear a serial number,
and ballistic fingerprinting involves them not at all.
So many un-numbered barrels being churned out here, legally.

So, if someone swaps out the barrel, e di baog na ang FED database.
PNP knows this, deadma na lang because the database is poorly
set up anyway.

Evan N. Payawal
01-19-2006, 20:05
Now begs the question, what about shotguns? Certainly no rifling on the pellets. Now, if you pick up the shell casings after firing then there are no extractor/ejector/breechface marks to find.

So now, you have an untraceable firearm. Is there any way to match 00 buck to a specific weapon?

horge
01-19-2006, 20:32
Sshhhhhh!!!
Baka marinig ka ng Congress, ipagbawal pa ang scatterguns, hahaha!
It all sounds even worse when you consider the correct answer to question #3

The questions I chose are not entirely random, and are often related to each other
in the context of issues that face firearm owners today.
That is why I recommended answering ALL 10 (or 11 if you like).
:)

mikey177
01-19-2006, 20:45
1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?

It is being charged pursuant to Section 884 of the Revised Administrative Code, so that if you happen to lose your firearm, the government still makes money :)

2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines?

General Order 7-B, SOP dated 17 January 1973

3. What is the shortest legal barrel length for a shotgun in the Philippines?

There is none.

4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines?

Twin Pines (they also own the Tools Trading branches in the provinces)

5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of handguns.

Armscor, Floro Intl, SAM, Rock Island Armory, World-MPC (Workers League of Danao-Multipurpose Cooperative)

6. Who formulated the '4 Basic Rules' of Firearm Safety?

Jeff Cooper

7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended?

'Cuz the PNP chief said so

8. Who has historical priority on the 'Armscor' name, the Tuasons or the South Africans?

The Armanents Corporation of South Africa (Armscor), established 1948

9. Name the 3 oldest operating gun dealers in the Philippines.

PB Dionisio, Armscor, and Squires Bingham

10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006?

Armscor and PB Dionisio


Bonus question:
11. What is the single biggest flaw to Ballistic Fingerprinting as a crimefighting tool, within the context of present FED Licensing Rules, Requlations and Requirements?;Q

Already answered by other posters. The barrel can be swapped out prior to committing a crime.

horge
01-19-2006, 21:41
Mikey,


You got close enough to making 6 of 11!
So, here are some of the answers, and clues where answers have availed us not:


3. What is the shortest legal barrel length for a shotgun in the Philippines?
YES! Mannix, and later Mikey got this one.
On extensive discussion with PSINSP Callejo of FED Legal,
I turned up very little codified guidance on this matter.
Of course, not all issuances from Malacaņang, DILG or DND
are for General Publication (mga secret orders baga, eeeeek!),
so I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like there is no
legal restriction vs. short barrels. Mga Jaguar nga dyan, e...

Hindi kasi uso ang topbreak shotguns dito, so allowing for a pump-action's
tube/magazine tends to keep barrels a 'decent' length anyway.

I was almost afraid to bring this all up, as some bureaucrat
with nothing better to do might make a crusade of legislating
a minimum barrel length for scatterguns.


5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of handguns.
Lots of you got this one in part or in whole
'Armscor' - by Armscor
'Squires Bingham' - by Armscor
'SAM' - by Shooters Arms Manufacturing
'Rock Island Armory' - by Twin Pines Inc.
'Federal' - by Floro International
'World' ('Bonifacio', 'Rizal', etc) - by World-MPC of Danao
'Elisco' - by Elisco Tool Mfg.
'FERFRANS' - by FERFRANS
etc., etc...

6. Who formulated the '4 Basic Rules' of Firearm Safety?
vega, i_am_infinity, and then mikey177 got this one.
It was indeed the paternal Titan of 'practical shooting',
Jeff Cooper (USMC, Ret.), founding President of the IPSC.

(Iyang si James Cooper naman, hair-dryer ang nasa holster :))

8. Who have historical priority on the 'Armscor' name, the Tuasons or the South Africans?
The Tuasons.
Mannix ws first to guess right.
Although it likes to trace its roots to a camera shop founded in 1906
(Squires Bingham), the 'Arms Corporation of the Philippines' was
incorporated in 1980. It used both 'Armscor' and 'Armscorp' trademarks
for awhile, before quickly settling on the former, which was less
ambiguous to pronounce.

The Krygstuig Korporasie van Suid-Afrika (Armaments Corporation of South Africa)
in Pretoria traces its beginnings to 1948 as the apartheid state
armament factory. However, it only started using the 'Armscor'
acronym for one of its corporate divisions (which was set up
in 1979) in late 1982 to mid-1983.

So, the Tuasons, by a nose --and the South Africans still dispute this.
The Americans seem to agree with us, which is why the South Africans
have to use 'Armscorp' in the USA.


9. Name the 3 oldest operating gun dealers in the Philippines.
AFAICT, Mikey got this one first.
Squires Bingham 1929
P. B. Dionisio 1946
Armscor 1980 (beating E. de Leon/SAM by a year or two, I teenk.)

I could have sworn E. de Leon went back to the 50's,
but maybe I'm wrong and it actually does, and there could
still be other, older dealers out there, and I'd love any
correction on this matter.

-------------
That leaves:

1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?
Keep trying! :)
I'm not looking for the legal basis, but the LOGIC (if any, hehe) to:
a deposit vs. property loss that is forfeited to THE GOVERNMENT
should you lose YOUR property.


2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines?
Keep trying! :)
a. The main body of General Order No. 7-B (officially listed as General Order No. 22)
makes no mention of a licensing exclusivity based on citizenship.

b. The SOP for the above 7-B was appended to, and made an 'integral part' of said 7-B
via Section 4, but... heres the bottom line:

c. Whatever else 7-B and its SOP may or may not say...
7-B was repealed in its entirety by E.O. 194 (s.2000),
and so, no longer exists as a 'law'. Neither should its SOP survive,
since, as an 'integral part' of 7-B, it 'goes down with the ship'.

(PNP SOP's like NR13 which merely cite 7-B still survive,
precisely because they only cite, and are not an actual part
of any repealed law or order --but they are themselves neither 'laws' nor 'orders'.
The quiz question is looking for a 'law', ...or at least an 'order')
Whew! ;f ;f ;f


4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines?
Try again?
:) AFAICT, Twin Pines, A-Zone and Tools Trading carry separate
dealer's licenses... thus I feel they are not all one 'dealer',
though they are all controlled by the Topacios.


7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended?
So close, so close...


10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006?
Try again! :)
It is a matter of law, actually.


"GAME PA BA KAYOOO???
http://tinypic.com/m8zn85.jpg

:)
horge

deenoh
01-19-2006, 22:56
4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines?

Shooters Guns and Ammo

darwin25
01-19-2006, 23:00
Originally posted by horge

(Iyang si James Cooper naman, hair-dryer ang nasa holster :))[/color]



EHEHEHE

horge
01-19-2006, 23:32
CORRECT ANSWER, DINO!!!
http://tinypic.com/m8zn85.jpg

4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines?

Shooters Guns and Ammo Corp. has over sixty (60) outlets
all over the archipelago, including a broad AFPSLAI and PAFCIPIC
presence, and the number looks to grow over the next few years.

Armscor, king of the hill in its infancy, adopted a conventional
manufacturer's model of distribution: Squires Bingham aside,
retail was left to third-party retailers.

Shooters Arms Manufacturing had to build its own retail network to
compete and sell its own brand of pistols, via an expansion of the
original E. de Leon Gun store chain: SGAC.

Only questions numbered 1,2,7 & 10 remain!

isuzu
01-19-2006, 23:33
Yep Horge,

E de Leon is a very old gun dealer. I remember seeing one in the '70s. My dad nearly bought a .38 Super Gold Cup from them prior to Martial Law for just P700.00 (.45s sold between P200.00-P250.00, NIB). Just didn't materialize because of Martial Law weeks later.

horge
01-19-2006, 23:45
isuzu,

Thanks, that's what I'd known rin...
However, wanting to verify, I called up SGAC and someone pointed me
towards 1997 as the birth of Shooters, and 1982 as the start point
of the particular 'E. de Leon Gun Store' (Perhaps there were different,
'rival' E. de Leon gunstores: parang Lumanog music store baga...)
that spawned the Shooters of today.

Maybe the person I was speaking to misheard me, or I misheard her.
It was admittedly a weird question to be tossing at them over the phone!
Regardless, mabait talaga ang SGAC folks, right up there with the
'Weapons Systems Corp.' and 'Straight Shooter' folks, among others.

antediluvianist
01-20-2006, 01:45
1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?
Finders keepers losers weepers?



2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines?

the Constitution?


4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines?

It is a little known fact that all Jollibee stores sell guns in a back room - but you have to order fries too.


7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended?
So that you can't fire from Nagtahan Bridge into Malacanang?


10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006?
The Bocaue Fireworks Cooperative?

Allegra
01-20-2006, 02:14
Yung #10 ay RPA , yung arsenal nasa Bataan

horge
01-20-2006, 02:17
Manong ante ;)

1. Nope, heheh.

2. Nope. Errr, which of our Constitutions didja have in mind? ;)

4. Jollibee? At least pre-oiled ang unit... puwedeng baril nina
Tom Cruise/Jamie Foxx in Michael Mann's 'Collesterol' ba?
Iyang mga 'Jollibee' na yan, iba-ibang maestro ang mga 'yan.
Hindi iisang dealer lang yan, ha!

7. Nope, and besides:
Kulang pa ang elevation ng Nagtahan Bridge.
Mataas din ang bakod ng Malacaņang, at nataon pa'ng pandak ang....
Ssssshhhhhhhh!!!! Welly bad!!!! ~shame~ ;f

10. Naku ha, bio-weapons ang iba sa mga labas ng Bocaue...


h.

PMMA97
01-20-2006, 02:24
Originally posted by antediluvianist

4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines?

It is a little known fact that all Jollibee stores sell guns in a back room - but you have to order fries too.


7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended?
So that you can't fire from Nagtahan Bridge into Malacanang?


10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006?
The Bocaue Fireworks Cooperative?

;z ;z ;z

PMMA97
01-20-2006, 02:27
Due to the mediamen killings. Is the answer to question on rifle competitions. With conviction parang alam ;f

horge
01-20-2006, 02:35
JUDGES, CAN WE ACCEPT THAT ANSWER?
WE CAN? ...THEN 'RPA' IS CORRECT!!
CONGRATULATONS, MR. ALLEGRA!!!!
http://tinypic.com/m93osi.jpg

10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006?
Properly known as the GA or Government Arsenal, this facility
exists to serve the ammunition needs of the AFP and PNP. In fact,
all government agencies are now compelled by Executive Order
to source their ammunition needs from the GA, save only (of course)
for when the ammuniton required isn't manufactured by the GA.

Including other local manufacturers like, say, Armscor
disqualifies the answer: Sorry, Mr. isuzu ***pout si Kristeta**

A technicality might have favored 'Floro International' as an answer,
as the company makes military ordnance that ISN'T yet manufactured by
the GA, but I don't think Floro has landed a new supply contract
for 2006.

:)

Questions 1, 2 and 7 na lang!!!

1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?

2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines?

7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended?



Extra notes to the contestants!
for question #1 - We'e looking for the logic to the bond, not the (legal) basis
for question #7 - We're looking for the (legal) basis to the ban, not the logic.
:)

9MX
01-20-2006, 03:41
Originally posted by horge

Mannix,
I've met and/or run into Berning a few times, over the past few decades,
and it'll take more surgery/treatment than just that.
She had incredible skin every time.

Berning? pls. elaborate;Q

9MX
01-20-2006, 03:52
Originally posted by horge
[b]

Extra notes to the contestants!
for question #1 - We'e looking for the logic to the bond, not the (legal) basis
for question #7 - We're looking for the (legal) basis to the ban, not the logic.
:)

[/color]

Okay,

1. Posting a bond, signifies one who acquiring an FA is gainfully employed/has a stature in society,eklat....

7. By virtue of an EO/memorandum from PGMA

horge
01-20-2006, 04:34
Mannix,
1. Nope.

2. comments re #7 below are somewhat related.

7. You're hitting COM now...
It would require a new EO or AO or DILG Memorandum, or even
an Act of Congress to enable the PNP to do something (HP rifle comp-ban)
so blatantly against the instructions of EO 164 (s.1999), which
pretty much tells the PNP to promote rifle competitions.
The question in a sense, therefore, is...

Is there such an EO/AO/Memo/Act in hand?
Is there NO such EO/AO/Memo/Act in hand?
Or....
***dunn, dunn, dunnnnnnnnn***
is it something between those two situations?
**insert 'Psycho' shower-stall slashing-scene soundtrack**
;P ;P ;P


:)
horge





P.S.:
'Kris' actually isn't Ms. Aquino's real (childhood) nick.
I used a suitably-camouflaged twist on the real thing
Sorry for the confusion. My bad.

atmarcella
01-20-2006, 05:58
Originally posted by horge


5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of handguns.
Lots of you got this one in part or in whole
'Armscor' - by Armscor
'Squires Bingham' - by Armscor
'SAM' - by Shooters Arms Manufacturing
'Rock Island Armory' - by Twin Pines Inc.
'Federal' - by Floro International
'World' ('Bonifacio', 'Rizal', etc) - by World-MPC of Danao
'Elisco' - by Elisco Tool Mfg.
'FERFRANS' - by FERFRANS
etc., etc...



h,
i dont think ferfrans makes handguns:)

batangueno
01-20-2006, 06:05
;9

horge, wag ka matutulog hangga't hindi mo linalabas yung mga sagot ha...mabibitin kami. ;f

Django
01-20-2006, 07:27
C'mon already Horge. You know we have family and vices to feed. We don' wanna work that hard. Wednesday is a long way from today. ;f

bokbok_05
01-20-2006, 07:57
1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?
i-try ko lang ha :

this is actually a simple agreement(covenant) bet the FA owner and the PNP, that the FA owner must safety keep the FA and abide all the laws and regulations in keeping a FA. the agreement will be therefore witnessed by a third party (which is the assurance corp).

hula lang po. :)

horge
01-20-2006, 17:01
Ay sorry....
atmarcella is right ---the companies towards the end of my list
don't make hand guns! Gift pack for atmarcella.
(Paul, inantok na ako last night, kakahintay sa bagong sagot, e....;))

But we have one now!


JUDGES, CAN A PARTIAL ANSWER COUNT?
...
IT'S 95% OF THE ANSWER. IT COUNTS?
THEN CONGRATULATIONS!!!
CORRECT ANSWER, MR. bokbok_05!
http://tinypic.com/m93osi.jpg

1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?

In the begining (1907) there was Philippine Commission Act No. 1780,
which begat sections of Act No. 2711 aka the Insular Adminstrative Code,
which begat the Revised Administrative Code,
which sheltered General Orders Nos. 7, 7-A, 7-B and 7-C,
which whelped P.D. No. 1866.... now amended.

Each document copied from its elders, but focusing more and more
on emphasizing the obligations imposed on the people, and
less and less on the rationale originally included in the text.

In that first Act No. 1780, entitled AN ACT TO REGULATE
THE IMPORTATION, ACQUISITION, POSSESSION, USE, AND TRANSFER
OF FIREARMS, AND TO PROHIBIT THE POSSESSION OF SAME EXCEPT
IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE PROVISIONS OF THIS ACT, the following
is stated:

"Section 10. - In consideration of the issuance of a personal license
to possess firearms or ammunition, and to assure faithful
compliance with the laws and regulations relating thereto, every
person receiving such a license and making a cash deposit, shall
endorse the certificate of deposit received by him so that the same
shall be payable to the order of the Insular Treasurer, and shall
deliver the same to the officers issuing the license..."

bokbok_05 has the greatest portion of the answer EXACTLY right.
However, violations of firearms laws/regulations are
punishable by far worse penalties today, making bond forfeiture
thereby, a trivial consequence.

What sticks out is the principle of bond forfeiture due to
LOSS of the firearm:

"Section 12. - In the event of noncompliance by the
licensee with any one or more of the laws and regulations relating
to firearms and ammunition, or with the terms of hislicense,
or in case of the loss of any licensed firearms, whether through
accident or otherwise, when proof of such fact is produced to the
satisfaction of the Governor-General, the certificate of deposit
shall be forwarded to the Insular Treasurer by order of the Governor-
General for collection, and, when collected, the amount thereof shall
be deposited to the credit of general funds..."

So, if I lose my firearm "through accident or otherwise"
I am punished through forfeiture of my bond. Why?
Ako ang nawalan, and the state gets compensated for MY loss?
Does that mean my licensed firearm is not really MY property?

Is that what "Firearms ownership is a privilege" means?
Is that what Goverment thinks of the guns I bought with my own money?
That my licensed firearms are STATE property that I have merely
been granted the privilege of caring for and using? Malabo yan.

The truth is not so outrageous as that, but it is still notable:
Government is worried about firearms being unaccounted-for:
a "firearm lost" equals "in the hands of criminals/rebels/what-have-you".
You are thus being penalized for arming criminals/rebels.
THAT was the remaining 5% to the answer, and a spicy 5% it is.

The tradition of the bond has been handed down over the past 99 years,
though understanding of it has largely not. Nowadays, licensees see
it as just another fee to get over with. Most PNP FED personnel
(I asked around) see it purely as just another fee to collect... but
then most FED personnel only need to know it as such. Licensees, on
the other hand, ought to know better, since they're the ones paying
and promising.



---
Questions 2 and 7 na lang!

2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines?
Clue: The American colonial government certainly wouldn't
have countenanced such a restriction. More likely they observed the
opposite: Filipinos were generally prevented from possessing arms,
while white people were liberally showered with 'hunting permits'
The 1935 Constitution and everything prior are thus automatically
outside the concern of this question
:)

7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended?
Clue: The Executive Order (No. 164, s.1999) permitting
--nay, promoting-- high-power rifle competitions and shooting
competitions in general, came out late 1999.

For PNP to scorn this Executive Order as it has in practice,
there has to have been a repeal, or severe amendment of said
Executive Order, sometime between 2000 and when Rifle Comps
were banned (early 2005 I believe). There HAS to have been a
repeal or amendment of the earlier EO's. Otherwise, PNP-FED
would be acting, errr...illegally!
:)
'Di ba, bad iyon?

New_comer
01-22-2006, 18:55
I don't own the guns I bought.

Trustee lang pala ako. ;P

New_comer
01-22-2006, 19:05
Very interesting and educational.

We should have this stickied for everyone to peruse.

horge
01-24-2006, 18:43
I was going to post a new 10-question Quiz thread, but I'm
too ticked-off to devote any more time to such an exercise

Anyway it's Wednesday , so I'm perforce (re)capitulating the answers.

-----
1. What is the logic/raison behind the 'Firearms Bond' in your license fees?
In the beginning (1907) there was US-Philippine Commission Act No. 1780,
which begat sections of Act No. 2711 aka the Insular Adminstrative Code,
which begat the Revised Administrative Code,
which sheltered General Orders Nos. 7, 7-A, 7-B and 7-C,
which whelped P.D. No. 1866.... now amended.

Act No. 1780 reveals the logic behind the Firearms Bond:
"Section 10. - In consideration of the issuance of a personal license
to possess firearms or ammunition, and to assure faithful
compliance with the laws and regulations relating thereto, every
person receiving such a license and making a cash deposit, shall
endorse the certificate of deposit received by him so that the same
shall be payable to the order of the Insular Treasurer, and shall
deliver the same to the officers issuing the license..."

and further still:

"Section 12. - In the event of noncompliance by the
licensee with any one or more of the laws and regulations relating
to firearms and ammunition, or with the terms of his license,
or in case of the loss of any licensed firearms, whether through
accident or otherwise, when proof of such fact is produced to the
satisfaction of the Governor-General, the certificate of deposit
shall be forwarded to the Insular Treasurer by order of the Governor-
General for collection, and, when collected, the amount thereof shall
be deposited to the credit of general funds..."

So, the firearm bond is a promise to obey all laws and regulations
regarding firearms, including the terms of firerm licenses. It
is furthermore a promise not to lose the firearm, said loss
tantamount to arming criminals/rebels.

2. What law forbids foreigner-ownership of firearms in the Philippines?
AFAICT:
There is no Constitutional bar.
There is no legislation out of both Houses of Congress for it either.
The Office of the President has not published an Executive Order,
nor even an Administrative Order that bars foreigners from
owning guns here.

All I have found is a stupefyingly self-contradictory
Memorandum Circular from the Ministry of Defense (1979) (http://ffforum.50webs.com/mnd_13nov1979.html)
(click to read)

It cites the principle of international 'reciprocity' as a basis for
allowing foreign diplomats to possess firearms here, but then
tramples the very same principle by not extending the privilege to
"ordinary foreigners". (The United States, to my knowledge, allows
Filipino nationals to KBA on US soil. The Philippines denies an equal
ability to US nationals. Some reciprocity, there!!!)

Given the American lineage of our Constitutions, laws, and our
body of Administrative issuances, it's not surprising that
I've failed to find anything higher-up than a Department Memo
to bar foreigner (read: American) possession of firearms here.

So, it seems, strictly speaking...
No laws forbid foreigner ownership of firearms in the Philippines,
provided the forergners' nations allow Filipinos the same privilege.

Mere 'Rules and Regulations' formulated by PNP are what forbid the
LICENSING (and circuitiously therefore, the possession) of firearms
by/for foreigners. Excepting VIP's like diplomats, 'course.
;Q
But hey, IANAL, JMO, YMMV, etc.

3. What is the shortest legal barrel length for a shotgun in the Philippines?
On extensive discussion with PSINSP Callejo of FED Legal,
I turned up very little codified guidance on this matter.
Of course, not all issuances from Malacaņang, DILG or DND
are for General Publication (mga secret orders baga, eeeeek!),
so I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like there is no
legal restriction vs. short barrels.

Topbreak shotguns aren't popular here, and allowing for a pump-action's
tube/magazine tends to keep barrels a 'decent' length anyway.

I was almost afraid to bring this all up, as some bureaucrat
with nothing better to do might make a crusade of legislating
a minimum barrel length for scatterguns.

4. Which gun dealer has the largest network of stores in the Philippines?
Shooters Guns and Ammo Corp. has over sixty (60) outlets
all over the archipelago, including a broad AFPSLAI and PAFCIPIC
presence, and the number looks to grow over the next few years.

Armscor, king of the hill in its infancy, adopted a conventional
manufacturer's model of distribution: Squires Bingham aside,
retail was left to third-party vendors.

Shooters Arms Manufacturing had to build its own retail network to
compete and sell its own brand of pistols, via an expansion of the
original E. de Leon Gun store chain: SGAC.


5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of handguns.
'Armscor' - by Armscor
'Squires Bingham' - by Armscor
'SAM' - by Shooters Arms Manufacturing
'Rock Island Armory' - by Twin Pines Inc.
'Federal' - by Floro International
'World' ('Bonifacio', 'Rizal', etc) - by World-MPC of Danao
etc., etc...

6. Who formulated the '4 Basic Rules' of Firearm Safety?
The paternal Titan of practical shooting,
Jeff Cooper (USMC, Ret.), founding President of the IPSC.


7. On what basis are high-powered rifle competitions presently suspended?
The Chief, PNP is given considerable leeway with regard to
approving licenses/permits for firearms, FA dealerships and competitions.
This leeway does NOT include going against policies and orders
properly issued by his boss, the President of the Republic.

EO 164 (1999) (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1999_eo_164.html) (<--click) is explicit in promoting rifle ownership
for the purpose of competitive training/participation.

This EO has not been repealed.
It however may be misconstrued as having been amended.
I'm guessing this is why:

In 2003, the present Administration issued the very poorly-timed
EO 171 (2003) (http://ffforum.50webs.com/2003_eo_171.html) (<--click), mandating an Amnesty for Loose Firearms.
It was badly timed because the Amnesty period ran smack into an
Election gun-ban, preventing Amnesty-seekers from bringing in their
firearms. Anyway, this poorly-timed EO wore matching, poorly-drafted
language.

Section 2 states
"As a general rule high-powered rifles and paltik firearms may not be allowed for licensing..."

I think this is the part (ab)used; that the above quote applies not only
to the Amnesty that the EO prescribes, but to ALL FIREARMS LICENSING.
It is --to such thinking-- therefore a castration of the earlier
pro-rifle EO 164. Such an interpretation can then be feverishly
made to neuter rifle transport and rifle competition permits as well.

I'm sure the present Administration verbally indicated its wishes,
but for PNP to go against an established Executive Order promoting rifle comps,
there first has to be a new EO issued, empowering the PNP to do so.
Otherwise, it's unfair to HP rifle enthusiasts and unfair to the PNP, which
cannot defy a sitting President, neh?

It seems to me, the 'rifle competition ban' has vaporous legal basis.
But hey, IANAL, JMO, YMMV, etc.


8. Who have historical priority on the 'Armscor' name, the Tuasons or the South Africans?
The Tuasons.
Although it likes to trace its roots to a camera shop founded in 1906
(Squires Bingham), the 'Arms Corporation of the Philippines' was
incorporated in 1980. It used both 'Armscor' and 'Armscorp' trademarks
for awhile, before quickly settling on the former, which was less
ambiguous to pronounce.

The Krygstuig Korporasie van Suid-Afrika (Armaments Corporation of South Africa)
in Pretoria traces its beginnings to 1948 as the apartheid state
armament factory. However, it only started using the 'Armscor'
acronym for one of its corporate divisions (which was only set up
in 1979) in late 1982 or more likely, mid-1983.

So, the Tuasons, by a nose --and the South Africans still dispute this.
The Americans seem to agree with us, which is partly why the
South Africans have to use 'Armscorp' in the USA.


9. Name the 3 oldest operating gun dealers in the Philippines.
Squires Bingham 1929(?)
P. B. Dionisio 1946
Armscor 1980 (not sure about this one: see below.)

I would have sworn E. de Leon (SAM) went back to the 50's,
but a call to SGAC indicated otherwise (1982 daw).
Maybe I was simply incoherent over the phone.
I'd appreciate any correction on this matter.

10. Which local ammunition manufacturers will be contract-supplying the AFP and/or PNP in 2006?
Properly known as the GA or Government Arsenal, this facility
exists to serve the ammunition needs of the AFP and PNP. In fact,
all government agencies are now compelled by Executive Order
to source their ammunition needs from the GA, save only (of course)
for when the ammuniton required isn't manufactured by the GA.

Including other local manufacturers like, say, Armscor
disqualifies the answer.

A technicality might have favored 'Floro International' as an answer,
as the company makes military ordnance that ISN'T yet manufactured by
the GA, but I don't think Floro has landed a new supply contract
for 2006.

Bonus question:
11. What is the single biggest flaw to Ballistic Fingerprinting as a crimefighting tool, within the context of present FED Licensing Rules, Requlations and Requirements?
Ballistics testing fingerprints the BARREL only
(chamber and breechface too, if you count casings).

Never mind that extensive firing changes the rifling signature
of a barrel over time, the bottom line is that it is only
frames/receivers that are required to bear a serial number,
and ballistic fingerprinting involves them not at all.
So many un-numbered barrels being churned out here, legally.

So, if someone swaps out the barrel, then FED can no longer
recognize bullets fired as having come from that firearm.
PNP knows this, baka deadma na lang because the database is
poorly set up anyway.

It's a good thing ballistic fingerprints aren't the only
means to linking a fired bullet to a gun and an owner.



h

mikey177
01-24-2006, 18:59
I was going to post a new 10-question Quiz thread, but I'm
too ticked-off to devote any more time to such an exercise

I hope your day takes a turn for the better, horge. I'm eager to find out what the answer to question number 7 is.

horge
01-24-2006, 19:31
Sorry,
I inadvertently left #7's answer (if you can call it an answer) out.
All fixed now.

Mike, if you have the full text of GO 7-B's SOP, could you lend me a
copy sometime? A low-res scan or photo would do. I'm starting to
suspect my copy is missing some material. Thanks.

...and I am feeling better now, thanks to Eric.

kristiansen
01-24-2006, 19:38
Originally posted by horge


...and I am feeling better now, thanks to Eric. [/B] ;f ;f ;f a glass of red wine is not a bad idea.

mikey177
01-24-2006, 20:44
Originally posted by horge
Sorry,
I inadvertently left #7's answer (if you can call it an answer) out.
All fixed now.

Mike, if you have the full text of GO 7-B's SOP, could you lend me a
copy sometime?

Thanks for answering question #7, horge. Maybe our fellow BoG rifle owners could pester the PNP FED about that anti-high powered rifle policy of theirs.

I'm sorry. I don't have a copy of GO 7-B, and I only got the answer to question #2 by searching through your previous posts :)

I'm not much of a wine person, but I'll raise a tall glass of SMB to you just the same. Cheers, and stay safe ;c