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horge
01-27-2006, 06:23
Sequel to the first BoG Quiz (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=489023)...
Just for fun again... subukan n'yo lang if you like!
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

---
1. How many firearms (long, short) can a qualified Filipino possess under license?

2. How many 'members' can the Band of Glockers claim/count?

4. What is the issue sidearm of the Philippine National Police?

5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of ammunition.

6. What was the first modern firearm commercially-manufactured in the Philippines?

7. Who is BoG's Dread Lord of Dryfire... The Doom of Glock breechfaces everywhere?

8. Name the only Filipino polymer-frame handgun currently in production.

9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps at firing ranges?

10. Are modern pistol barrels button-rifled? Why?


Bonus question: What do you term a bullet with a metal (typically copper)
jacket covering its entire surface?



:)
horge

Allegra
01-27-2006, 06:37
4 - DAO beretta 92 FS pero the pistol that won the trials was cz
Uso kasi nun ang Lethal Weapon

Alexii
01-27-2006, 06:55
I can only attempt to answer three, including the bonus question:

4) Beretta 92D (or the DAO model Allegra mentioned)

7) Homogenizer

Bonus: TMJ (Total Metal Jacketed)

Nice job, H!;c

atmarcella
01-27-2006, 07:56
1. How many firearms (long, short) can a qualified Filipino possess under license?
1 long and 1 short

2. How many 'members' can the Band of Glockers claim/count?

4. What is the issue sidearm of the Philippine National Police?

5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of ammunition.

6. What was the first modern firearm commercially-manufactured in the Philippines?
squire bingham .38 special

7. Who is BoG's Dread Lord of Dryfire... The Doom of Glock breechfaces everywhere?

8. Name the only Filipino polymer-frame handgun currently in production.
armscor ap9

9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps at firing ranges?
hydrodynamics

10. Are modern pistol barrels button-rifled? Why?
no, button rifling process causes stress, w/c needs to be relieved, they are only suitable to rifle barrels, pistol barrels are to short for button rifling

atmarcella
01-27-2006, 07:58
Bonus question: What do you term a bullet with a metal (typically copper)
jacket covering its entire surface?

FMJ

Eye Cutter
01-27-2006, 10:43
Originally posted by horge
Sequel to the first BoG Quiz (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=489023)...
Just for fun again... subukan n'yo lang if you like!
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

---
1. How many firearms (long, short) can a qualified Filipino possess under license?

as many as your wallet will allow

2. How many 'members' can the Band of Glockers claim/count?

i stopped counting when gundog came aboard!

4. What is the issue sidearm of the Philippine National Police?

beretta 92 DAO

5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of ammunition.

armscor, bullseye, silver bullet, multishock, Bataan Munitions Plant, aahhhh, uuhhmmmm.... what else???

but only armscor and the DND arsenal manufactures their own line of ammunition from their own components.

all other local brands are loaded commercially from imported and local components, i.e. shells, heads, powder, primer, etc.

6. What was the first modern firearm commercially-manufactured in the Philippines?

a squires bingham rifle?

7. Who is BoG's Dread Lord of Dryfire... The Doom of Glock breechfaces everywhere?

Mr. DQ himself, homogenizer

8. Name the only Filipino polymer-frame handgun currently in production.

Armscor's AP-9 or something, the under license from tanfoglio force polymer pistol

9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps at firing ranges?

because if you use water drums as backstops, you'd end up flooding the whole bay!

10. Are modern pistol barrels button-rifled? Why?

nope. it's more expensive than using edm or chemical rifling. i think the other type of machine rifling is broach rifling

Bonus question: What do you term a bullet with a metal (typically copper)
jacket covering its entire surface? Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) still has the base of the bullet head exposed. The Total Metal Jacket (TMJ) covers the whole bullet head



:)
horge

horge
01-27-2006, 17:19
QUITE A NUMBER OF CORRECT
ANSWERS, PO!!! GOOD JOB
CONTESTANTS!!!
http://tinypic.com/m8zn85.jpg

1. How many firearms (long, short) can a qualified Filipino possess under license?
Doc Alvin got this one right!!!
It used to be, under General Order 7-B (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1973_go_7b.html) (<--click), we were limited to 1 handgun and one long gun.
This General Order 7-B was repealed utterly by Executive Order No. 194 (http://ffforum.50webs.com/2000_eo_194.html) (<--click) of 2000,
which liberalized the TYPES of firearms allowed, but was silent on
the NUMBER of firearms permitted for private, civilian possession.

The year before that, Executive Order No. 164 (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1999_eo_164.html) (<--click)
did allow up to 15 handguns and 6 rifles each for gun-club members.

But that's not the end of it.
Curiously, a printed flyer (2004) issued by PNP-CSG FED
regarding the most recent Loose Firearms Amnesty
sets into words what has apparently been in general practice
since around 2002, presumably in observance of EO No. 194's
liberal attitude towards civilian firearms ownership, and
undoubtedly in celebration of the registration income generated:
http://i1.tinypic.com/mn15xs.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/mn16ie.jpg
"A qualified applicant may register any number of firearms"
Of course, there is the grotesque possibility that a fireram can
be registered, but NOT licensed. It would then be stored indefinitely
at FED on behalf of the 'owner', who wouldn't physically possess it.

That sort of backhanded legality (with real precedents going as far
back as 1912) might yet limit the theoretical number of firearms allowed
for an individual's possession, but I have neither the cash nor cojones
to test this thing, hahaha...



2. How many 'members' have 'joined' the Band of Glockers?
:) Come on guys... you can do this! :)


3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?
:) Come on guys... you can do this! :)


4. What is the issue sidearm of the Philippine National Police?
Allegra got this one first!
Yes, the Beretta 92 FS in DAO.
These pistols were provided under a severely anomalous contract,
wherein P.Beretta delivered only 29,364 units of 38,989 specified
and paid for, the Filipino taxpayers eating over 70 Million pesos
in losses thereby.

Under 30,000 units actually delivered.
PNP strength is over 117,000.
So, there really aren't enough to go around.

As a result, combined perhaps with a Filipino distrust of anything
less than .45 ACP and the local availability of inexpensive
M1911-pattern pistols, many LEO's provide their own sidearms:
often hi-cap (double-stack) M1911-pattern platforms.


5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of ammunition.
You were just one short, Alvin. BMP doesn't count. ;)
My fault, likely:
Perhaps I should have said 'commercial brands'
Bravo, for your great notes on local ammunition-manufacturing capabillities!


6. What was the first modern firearm commercially-manufactured in the Philippines?
Doc Alvin scores again!
The Squires Bingham Model 10 .22LR rifle, in 1952.


7. Who is BoG's Dread Lord of Dryfire... The Doom of Glock breechfaces everywhere?
You got this one right, Alexii, haha!
Homogenizer indeed!
Man, but I do miss hearing from Ivan.


8. Name the only polymer-frame handgun currently produced in the Philippines.
Try again! :) The Armscor AP9 is an all steel affair.


9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps at firing ranges?
Sorry for my inclarity!
I meant, why is a pool of water superior to a pit of sand,
for catching the bullet AFTER it has been deflected downward by
an angled backstop at the rear of indoor-range bays.
My apologies.


10. Are modern pistol barrels button-rifled? Why?
Nice going, atmarcella and Alvin!
It's true that pistol barrels are almost never button-rifled,
and the reason is a little more involved, though atmarcella
summed it up nicely: a pistol barrel is short.

Button rifling involves forcefully pulling a fluted mandrel
through a blank barrel. The interior surface of the barrel
has to deform to allow the turning mandrel to pass, and the
deformation track left behind is the rifling. The lands and
grooves slope softly into each other. It is fast, and therefore
cheap over volume production.

Hammer-forged rifling involves compressing a blank barrel onto
a rod inserted into it, said rod bearing a negative impression
of the desired rifling, The pressure forces the barrel interior
to adopt the desired rifling contour. The lands and grooves are
sharply in relief. It requires extreme accuracy and precision in
the application of force, and is very expensive to invest in,
although the per-unit cost (over volume) is good.

Electric Discharge Machining, and Chemical Etching are fast, but
often demand post-finishing to render truly straight/flat-bottomed
grooves between the lands.

In traditional cut-rifling, metal is progressively sheared away
from the blank barrel's interior, and the result is sharply-defined
and sharply-cornered lands and grooves. The rifling can be cut just
one groove at a time --or, as is almost universal these days,
all grooves simultaneously (broach-cutting). It is slow work,
but provides the best results.

Pistol barrels are so short that there's no real time-savings by
resorting to button-rifling, which produces sloppier lands/grooves.
atmarcella's comments on excessive stress apply especially to
CAST barrel blanks --those are either cast with rifling roughly included,
or else smooth castings are EDM'ed or CE'ed. They are all then
'planed' smooth via broach-cutting (with most of the material
already 'removed', there's little stress) and/or polishing.



Bonus question: What do you term a bullet with a metal (typically copper)
jacket covering its entire surface?
Alexii got this one first again!
TMJ indeed, and Alvin pointed out the difference between it and FMJ.


***

Questions Nos. 2,3,5,8 and 9 to go:

2. How many 'members' can the Band of Glockers claim/count?

3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?

5. Name at least 5 Philippine (commercial) brands of ammunition.

8. Name the only Filipino polymer-frame handgun currently in production.

9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps (after the angled backstop deflects the bullet downward) at (indoor) firing ranges?

GAME PA BA KAYO???
http://tinypic.com/m93osi.jpg

isuzu
01-27-2006, 17:52
I'll Answer the bonus question: Brass Enclosed Base or BEB

Ooops. Answered na pala. That's what's used in indoor ranges here, however.

atmarcella
01-27-2006, 18:43
ehem...

APP 9


Frame :Polymer
Slide : Nickel Alloy Steel
Caliber : 9 mm x 19
Barrel Length: 113 mm (4.45 inches)
Height : 135 mm (5.31 inches)
Magazine Capacity : 16 rounds
Action : Single/Double Action

atmarcella
01-27-2006, 18:47
oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh so that's why i already have more than 1 long and 1 short......and i thought it was just my charming good looks;f ;f ;f

horge
01-27-2006, 18:59
CORRECT ANSWER,
MR. ATMARCELLA!!!
http://tinypic.com/m8zn85.jpg

8. Name the only polymer-frame handgun currently produced in the Philippines.
atmarcella gets it right!
and what a difference an extra 'P' makes...
:)

The Armscor AP9 is all steel
The Armscor APP9 has the polymer frame.

As Doc Alvin earlier noted, both above-named pistols are authorized copies of Tanfoglios.

In reciprocity, Tanfoglio is presently making authorized copies of
Armscor's Practical and GI Series 1911's in Italy and Turkey,
for the European market.


Questions 2, 3, 5, and 9 left!!
2. How many 'members' can the Band of Glockers claim/count?

3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?

5. Name at least 5 Philippine (commercial) brands of ammunition.

9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps (after the angled backstop deflects the bullet downward) at (indoor) firing ranges?

PMMA97
01-27-2006, 19:26
Originally posted by horge

2. How many 'members' can the Band of Glockers claim/count?

:)
horge

95 but some members like Doc EC have not signed up for the "BOG Number" thread.

horge
01-27-2006, 19:36
Originally posted by PMMA97
95 but some members like Doc EC have not signed up for the "BOG Number" thread.

Alvin's having difficulty checking which numbers are already taken.
Malabo na 'ata ang mata niya... Ngwehehehe.... ;e


But seriously:

2. How many 'members' can the Band of Glockers claim/count?
Excluding obvious transients and the rare troll,
we number quite a bit more than just ninety-five.

I'll post my best-effort complete list of 'members'
when someone here can guess the number ...ummmm, give or take
say, twenty.
:)

atmarcella
01-27-2006, 20:08
9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps at firing ranges?
water absorbs and captures the bullet, the bullet stays there, while at speed bullets have a small tendency to richochet thru sand

deenoh
01-27-2006, 20:18
3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?

As many as their License to Operate/(Deal) allows

horge
01-27-2006, 20:28
Hi atm and Dino :)


3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?
Hi Dino! :)
I'm looking for an actual number!
As in, an average annual sales figure,
nationwide, and as based on fairly-recent data.


9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps (after the angled backstop deflects the bullet downward) at (indoor) firing ranges?
Hi again, atm! :)
Applied properly, both adequately absorb/contain potential ricochets,
especially since a projectile's already lost speed after coming down,
off the angled backstop. Water's better than sand for another reason.

Kiddo
01-27-2006, 20:37
9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps at firing ranges?

My guess is because water molecules are held closer together than sand grains hence water slows the bullet down faster?

deenoh
01-27-2006, 20:38
Originally posted by horge

3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?
Hi Dino! :)
I'm looking for an actual number!
As in, an average annual sales figure,
nationwide, and as based on fairly-recent data.

400,000?

horge
01-27-2006, 20:50
3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?
Hi again, Dino!
400,000 is a bit too high, for a year's worth of nationwide sales. :)



9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps (after the angled backstop deflects the bullet downward) at (indoor) firing ranges?
Hi Kiddo! :)
You're right that water IS more dense than dry sand, but as a
true fluid, it tends to give way to any intruding projectile.
Friction between sand grains retards any fluid movement, and
tends to 'stop' a bullet faster, or over a shorter distance of
the projectile's travel. So, no dice.
:)

There's a key reason to prefer water to sand, and it has
everything to do with the safety of range users.

SMBeerDealer
01-27-2006, 23:18
[/size]
9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps (after the angled backstop deflects the bullet downward) at (indoor) firing ranges? [/B][/QUOTE]

Using water prevents dust and lead from being thrown into the air, thus making it safer for the shooters. Tama ba? ;f

darwin25
01-28-2006, 01:43
Originally posted by horge
7. Who is BoG's Dread Lord of Dryfire... The Doom of Glock breechfaces everywhere?
horge

Kelangan pa bang I-memorize yan?;f ;f

horge
01-28-2006, 02:54
CORRECT ANSWER,
MR. SMBEERDEALER!!!
http://tinypic.com/m93osi.jpg

9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps (after the angled backstop deflects the bullet downward), in (indoor) firing ranges?
Dry sand will abrade bullets or bullet fragments on impact,
with a high probability of producing and dispersing lead dust.


Only 3 questions left!!

2. How many 'members' can the Band of Glockers claim/count?

3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?

5. Name at least 5 Philippine (commercial) brands of ammunition.



++++
Hey Darwin,
;f

antediluvianist
01-28-2006, 03:05
Why is sand inferior to water?

I'll try - the bullet imparts impulse to sand particles and these can move at speed in the direction of shooters/can get into their eyes/scratch faces; also, sand might by oversight be hard enough to deflect the bullet itself back. . Water just sprays and no one gets hurt by water in the face.

Personally, I think we should use the 23 senators as bullet momentum absorbers. Starting with that genius Lito Lapid.

horge
01-28-2006, 03:32
Too late, ante, hahaha! :)
smbeerdealer answered that question just a while ago.

Originally posted by antediluvianist
Personally, I think we should use the 23 senators as bullet momentum absorbers. Starting with that genius Lito Lapid. [/B]

Bad, ante! Welly bad!!!
;)

Kiddo
01-28-2006, 05:17
Originally posted by horge

9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps (after the angled backstop deflects the bullet downward) at (indoor) firing ranges?
Hi Kiddo! :)
You're right that water IS more dense than dry sand, but as a
true fluid, it tends to give way to any intruding projectile.
Friction between sand grains retards any fluid movement, and
tends to 'stop' a bullet faster, or over a shorter distance of
the projectile's travel. So, no dice.
:)

There's a key reason to prefer water to sand, and it has
everything to do with the safety of range users. [/B]

Oh. Well, probably slept in that class. Hehe. ;f Never thought about the lead thing. Is it such an issue in an outdoor range?

horge
01-28-2006, 05:25
Hi, Kiddo,
Not as much of an issue for outdoor ranges, indeed!
BTW, according my list, you were possibly the 44th person to join BoGs.

:)

Alexii
01-29-2006, 00:01
So how many BoGs are there?

horge
01-29-2006, 00:19
Alexii :)
You have as good a chance as anyone of knowing---
You were among the first to 'join' the 'Band of Glockers', even before
BoG really existed as a subforum, via jmy's 'Filipino' thread.


But hey, maybe I'll spill all remaining answers tomorrow.

:)horge

horge
01-29-2006, 15:47
Wellp... it's Monday.
Worst day of the week and all that....

Recap of questions, with answers:


------------------
1. How many firearms (long, short) can a qualified Filipino possess under license?
Doc Alvin got this one right. Once upon a time,
under General Order 7-B (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1973_go_7b.html) (<--click), we were limited to 1 handgun and one long gun.
This General Order 7-B was repealed utterly by Executive Order No. 194 (http://ffforum.50webs.com/2000_eo_194.html) (<--click) of 2000,
which liberalized the TYPES of firearms allowed, but was silent on
the NUMBER of firearms permitted for private, civilian possession.

The year before that, Executive Order No. 164 (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1999_eo_164.html) (<--click)
did allow up to 15 handguns and 6 rifles each for gun-club members.

But that's not the end of it.
Curiously, a printed flyer (2004) issued by PNP-CSG FED
regarding the most recent Loose Firearms Amnesty
sets into words what has apparently been in general practice
since around 2002, presumably in observance of EO No. 194's
liberal attitude towards civilian firearms ownership, and
undoubtedly in celebration of the registration income generated:

"A qualified applicant may register any number of firearms"

Of course, there is the grotesque possibility that a fireram can
be registered, but NOT licensed. It would then be stored indefinitely
at FED on behalf of the 'owner', who wouldn't physically possess it.

That sort of backhanded legality (with real precedents going as far
back as 1912) might yet limit the theoretical number of firearms allowed
for an individual's possession, but I have neither the cash nor cojones
to test this thing, hahaha...



2. How many 'members' have 'joined' the Band of Glockers?
As PMMA97 points out, only 95 have signed up for 'BoG numbers',
which may be the closest thing present to a formal declaration
of membership, however this cannot be representative,
since some of the oldest and most active members have not elected
to 'get numbered'.

Without 'formal' membership, it can be difficult distinguishing
between a transient visitor and a true (if brief) resident of the BoG.
Where brevity of participation is a concern, Filipino citizenship
or heritage is used as a deciding factor for inclusion in this list,
with benefit of the doubt granted the newest participants.

In very, very rough chronological order of 'joining'
(my apologies for exclusions and ordinary errors):

Updated List is here-
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=495556

Again this list is necessarily incomplete, both for reasons of
probable human error (mine), and indefinition (no formal membership).
If someone's been left out who shouldn't have, or if the order
of the listing is in error, please let me know!
Bottom line is, I'd guessed there are 220-250 of us.
The number grows steadily.

The origins of the Band of Glockers sub-forum?
Let's take it from the man himself, jmy:
"One lazy Saturday afternoon three and a half years ago,
after posting all the questions I wanted to with regard to Glock
pistols, I thought to myself: what other question could I post,
as I had nothing else to do and I was really bored that day,
so I just posted a question, "Filipino GlockTalk Members".

To be honest, I wasn't really to sure if I was going to get any
response to that question. Little did I know that that post of mine
would reach 72 pages. If my memory serves me right, Alexii was one
of the first to respond. Then came Mighty Cherokee. Batangueno,
Mc Oliver, Reccah, ppts, etc.. After a few posts, Mighty Cherokee
asked all of us to post our phone numbers. What I did was jot down
all their numbers and when I got to the office, I started calling
each one of them to set up a meeting. Finally, we all met up at
Tia Maria, Megamall. After that, we had some fun shoots and I guess
you guys know what happened after that. The rest is History."



3. Approximately how many new firearms are legally sold by dealers every year in the Philippines?
Around 50,000 new fireams are sold every year, according to AFAD,
as cited in a July 9, 2004 Philippine Daily Inquirer article
by Christian Esguerra & Luige del Puerto. This figure almost
certainly includes government and quasi-government contracts.

4. What is the issue sidearm of the Philippine National Police?
Allegra got this one first!
Yes, the Beretta 92 FS in DAO.
These pistols were provided under a severely anomalous contract,
wherein P.Beretta delivered only 29,364 units of 38,989 specified
and paid for, the Filipino taxpayers eating over 70 Million pesos
in losses thereby.

Under 30,000 units actually delivered.
PNP strength is over 117,000.
So, there really aren't enough to go around.

As a result, combined perhaps with a Filipino distrust of anything
less than .45 ACP and the local availability of inexpensive
M1911-pattern pistols, many LEO's provide their own sidearms:
often hi-cap (double-stack) M1911-pattern platforms.


5. Name at least 5 Philippine brands of ammunition.
Armscor (Armscor)

Bullseye (P.B. Dionisio)

Hahn (Willi Hahn Enterprises)

Multi-Shock (Arambulo Marketing)

Silver Bullets (Twin Pines Inc.)

Tactical Corner (Twin Pines Inc.)

etc. etc.!


6. What was the first modern firearm commercially-manufactured in the Philippines?
Doc Alvin scores!
The Squires Bingham Model 10 .22LR rifle, in 1952.


7. Who is BoG's Dread Lord of Dryfire... The Doom of Glock breechfaces everywhere?
Alexii got this one.
Homogenizer indeed!
I do miss hearing from Ivan.


8. Name the only polymer-frame handgun currently produced in the Philippines.
atmarcella wins this one.
The Armscor APP 9 (the Armscor AP9 is all steel).
Frame :Polymer
Slide : Nickel Alloy Steel
Caliber : 9 mm x 19
Barrel Length: 113 mm (4.45 inches)
Height : 135 mm (5.31 inches)
Magazine Capacity : 16 rounds
Action : Single/Double Action

As Doc Alvin noted, it is an authorized Tanfoglio copy.
In reciprocity, Tanfoglio is presently making authorized copies
of Armscor's Practical and GI Series 1911's in Italy and Turkey,
for the European market.



9. Why is sand inferior to water, used as bullet stops/traps (after the angled backstop deflects
the bullet downward) in (indoor) firing ranges?
SMBeerdealer scores!
Dry sand will abrade bullets or bullet fragments on impact,
with a high probability of producing and dispersing lead dust.



10. Are modern pistol barrels button-rifled? Why?
Nice going, atmarcella and Alvin!
It's true that pistol barrels are almost never button-rifled,
and the reason is a little more involved, though atmarcella
summed it up nicely: a pistol barrel is short.

Button rifling involves forcefully pulling a fluted mandrel
through a blank barrel. The interior surface of the barrel
has to deform to allow the turning mandrel to pass, and the
deformation track left behind is the rifling. The lands and
grooves slope softly into each other. It is fast, and therefore
cheap over volume production.

Hammer-forged rifling involves compressing a blank barrel onto
a rod inserted into it, said rod bearing a negative impression
of the desired rifling, The pressure forces the barrel interior
to adopt the desired rifling contour. The lands and grooves are
sharply in relief. It requires extreme accuracy and precision in
the application of force, and is very expensive to invest in,
although the per-unit cost (over volume) is good.

Electric Discharge Machining, and Chemical Etching are fast, but
often demand post-finishing to render truly straight/flat-bottomed
grooves between the lands.

In traditional cut-rifling, metal is progressively sheared away
from the blank barrel's interior, and the result is sharply-defined
and sharply-cornered lands and grooves. The rifling can be cut just
one groove at a time --or, as is almost universal these days,
all grooves simultaneously (broach-cutting). It is slow work,
but provides the best results.

Pistol barrels are so short that there's no real time-savings by
resorting to button-rifling, which produces sloppier lands/grooves.
atmarcella's comments on excessive stress apply especially to
CAST barrel blanks --those are either cast with rifling roughly included,
or else smooth castings are EDM'ed or CE'ed. They are all then
'planed' smooth via broach-cutting (with most of the material
already 'removed', there's little stress) and/or polishing.



Bonus question: What do you term a bullet with a metal (typically copper)
jacket covering its entire surface?
Alexii got this one first again!
TMJ indeed, and Alvin pointed out the difference between it and FMJ.



Thanks to everyone who participated!
If anyone knows of errors made above and in the prior Quiz,
I'm sure everyone would appreciate a swift correction.

:)
horge

Allegra
01-29-2006, 18:59
Entertainind and enlightening :)
Dapat weekly na yan :)

Alexii
01-30-2006, 00:02
Fantastic job, horge! I hope you consider putting some of the relevant info posted here to your website. We're learning a lot from you, bro.

Cheers!

Kiddo
01-30-2006, 02:19
Just curious, how much did our government pay for each Beretta unit? Why didn't they just choose local brands such as Armscor, where service and parts availability is abundant, aside from patronizing our own products?

bokbok_05
01-30-2006, 02:30
Why didn't they just choose local brands such as Armscor

i think pinadaan sa "bidding"...in other words....pulitika!:)

Eye Cutter
01-30-2006, 03:20
merong torture test ginagawa ang pnp sa pagpili ng sidearm nila.
allegra's right, the cz passed the pnp torture test but i don't know why the beretta was chosen. alam ko pati jericho was one of the pistols who participated in the torture test. some units like the naia airport police issue cz 75b pistols.

darwin25
01-30-2006, 03:34
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
merong torture test ginagawa ang pnp sa pagpili ng sidearm nila.
allegra's right, the cz passed the pnp torture test but i don't know why the beretta was chosen. alam ko pati jericho was one of the pistols who participated in the torture test. some units like the naia airport police issue cz 75b pistols.

Torture.?? Matindi talaga ang PNP pagdating dyan sa bagay na yan;f

horge
01-30-2006, 04:57
The 1998 contract was executed between the PNP and
Fabrica D’Armi Pietro Beretta S.P.A., the latter
represented in the Philippines by Armaments Unlimited, Inc.
thru Mr. Edgar V. Lucas (with offices conveniently inside
Camp Aguinaldo, across EDSA from HQ PNP). The contract amount
was P307,441,521.26 for 38,989 pistols. That comes out to
P7,885 each pistol, not really a low per-unit-cost, considering
this was a volume purchase.

Still, IIRC it was lower than CZ's quote, so no surprise who
won the bid. I'm told the price difference was reminiscent of
the one-dollar underbid by which Beretta beat SIG to win the
US Army contract, even though SIG actually beat Beretta at trials.


Now...
As for Armscor falling victim to irregularities/palakasan...
Au contraire... It seems Armscor was the one subject to
allegations of involvement in the same:


MANILA, November 13, 2003 (STAR) By Christina Mendez -
Local gun dealers are contesting a Philippine National Police
(PNP) plan to procure caliber .45 handguns for its ill-equipped
personnel after learning that the rules are allegedly being
changed to favor a company owned by a cousin of First Gentleman
Jose Miguel Arroyo.

The gun dealers said the PNP was still considering ordering
caliber .45 automatics manufactured by Arms Corporation of
the Philippines (Armscor) even though the gun model failed in
tests. Dealers also said the PNP changed the rules so that
Armscor’s gun model, the Armscor 1911-A1, would be the only
one accepted among the models being considered. One dealer
said the plan was being made in a "hush hush" manner with
only a few dealers knowing about the upcoming bidding.

"We do not question the PNP because it indeed has rigid rules
and regulations… We also want local manufacturers to prosper
but let us not sacrifice the quality (of local guns)," he said.
Police sources said the screening process for potential bidders
will start in a few weeks. Another dealer speculated that the
PNP leadership might be receiving pressure from "some groups"
close to the First Gentleman to push the deal. "Knowing their
influence, I think they are pushing their way in," the source said.

Director Ricardo de Leon, PNP community relations chief, said
the force plans to arm its special units with cal .45 pistols
by the end of the year. The plan will cost P20 million, he said.
However, at least P100 million from the Philippine Charity
Sweepstakes Office is reportedly being earmarked by Malacañang for
the new guns.

Police officers are presently armed with 9 mm pistols, which are
less powerful than the caliber .45 handgun, which uses larger
bullets. Following the US practice, the police force shifted to
the 9-mm. as its standard issue sidearm in the 1980s. Asked why
the PNP was shifting back to the .45, De Leon said: "There are
some units asking for caliber .45 pistols like the SWAT because
of its stopping power." De Leon denied the PNP was favoring any
company. "It is not true that the rules are being tailored for
Armscor," he said. The STAR tried but failed to get a comment
from Armscor on the issue.

A source in the PNP’s directorate for research and development,
confirmed that the Armscor 1911-A1 model failed in several
endurance tests. "In fact, it is about to undergo another
re-evaluation," he said. The gun’s safety, a lock that prevents
the gun from firing accidentally, reportedly came off when it
was dropped on solid ground.

In another test, it reportedly jammed repeatedly while firing
3,000 rounds. PNP specifications require pistols that can fire
up to 5,000 rounds without jamming. One gun dealer, who spoke
on condition of anonymity, said the PNP would only endanger its
personnel if they were issued "substandard firearms." Local gun
dealers said shifting back to the seven-shot, caliber .45 pistol
is a step backward in law enforcement. The Armscor 1911-A1 is
modeled after the US-built 1911 pistol, a mainstay of the US
armed forces for several decades.

Following the European standard, the US military junked the .45
in favor of the 9-mm. in the 1980s because the 9-mm. held at
least 15 rounds in the magazine and was easier to aim and fire
because of its relatively lighter weight. US law enforcement
agencies and police forces followed suit. The PNP followed the
trend and acquired the 9mm. Beretta, the US military’s standard
issue sidearm...

And yet another article the next day:


MANILA, November 14, 2003 (STAR) by Francis Lagniton
A draft document obtained by The STAR — Resolution 2003-20,
yet unsigned and undated, by the Napolcom Uniform and Equipment
Standardization Board — seeks to amend the approved bid
specifications for caliber .45 1911 pistols.

Some gun dealers argue that the proposed new resolution answers
the challenge of the Arms Corporation of the Philippines (Armscor)
to validate their complaint of the PNP’s plan to "change the rules
to favor the company owned by Mike Arroyo’s first cousin."

Among the changes in the specifications for .45 caliber pistols
which the new resolution calls for are: a combat trigger with
serration, double slide serration, an ambidextrous safety lever,
a wide beaver griptail safety, a dovetail front sight, a Novak
rear sight, a skeletonized hammer with combat serrated hole, an
extended slide stop release and serrated hand grip.

All these changes, they claim, are features presently found on
the Armscor 1911-A1 pistol and not on a standard .45 caliber
pistol, both local and imported, based on the approved specs,
being offered by other dealers. A sales poster of Armscor’s
pistol detailing these features was also obtained by the STAR
for reference. "If this resolution is signed within the week,
as our sources in the PNP tell us, then Armscor automatically
prequalifies for the P100 million bidding, while others have
to add-on these new features to their guns to pre-qualify,"
stated a gun dealer, who requested anonymity for fear of being
blacklisted by the PNP.

"If this isn’t tailoring specs to favor Armscor, then I don’t
know what is it," he added.

Reacting to the statement of Colonel Dizon, the head of the PNP
Directorate for Research and Development, said that he was
unaware of the Armscor pistol failing in evaluation testing, the
gun dealer said three dealers were at Camp Crame and witnessed
along with government representatives the testing and knew the
results.

They claimed the tests were conducted on Oct. 28-30 and Nov. 3
and 4 this year and alleged that the ambi safety of the Armscor
pistol broke during the drop test, and after continuously
jamming, stopped firing at 3,000 rounds, when the minimum for
an endurance test is 5,000 rounds.

STAR’s interview with DRD personnel the other day confirmed the
testing and the results. —


JM2P, but...
For civilian SD use, sure. The Armscor Practical seems adequate.
We civvies tend to provide more TLC and can seek corrective
remedies more readily for our pistols.

For LEO or (God forbid) military issue, I think the performance
test results speak for themselves. The Armscor doesn't cut it.
And this is a 2003 Armcor product we're talking about!

Back in 1998, when Beretta got the PNP contract, even if
Armscor was somehow spec-prequalified to enter, Armscor then
hadn't yet completed numerous upgrades to its foundry, of CNC
milling capability and of heat-treatment facilities.

Given the abysmal 2003 performance of the new/improved Armscor,
within a bid-out that was supposedly TAILORED to favor it,
can you just imagine how the older 1998 Armscor would have
fared?

Just to be clear, the 1998 bid was for a hicap 9mm general service
sidearm. The 2003 bid was for a .45 cal. SWAT and SAF sidearm.
Ibang-iba yung dalawang 'yun.


h.

Allegra
01-30-2006, 06:32
About 8 years ago , Police cadets had to buy their own gun
Buti nalang I knew a source that sold vietnam era model 10s and directd them to it
BTW, those 30 year old model 10s just needed a trigger job super accurate pa rin

horge
01-30-2006, 06:40
Just curious...
Where can I get one of those M&P's today?
Magkano?

:)

batangueno
01-30-2006, 06:49
Truly unbelievable that you counted all the members, horge. ^c

Tama si Allegra, dapat weekly na 'to. ;f

Django
01-30-2006, 06:50
Twin Pines. Surplus from the Royal Hong Kong PD. From P15,000 - up.

Allegra
01-30-2006, 06:52
Originally posted by horge
Just curious...
Where can I get one of those M&P's today?
Magkano?

:)


Would you believe 4t nuon? ( the Norinco 1911 was 7t )Almost bought them wholesale and ibebenta ko dapat sa kadete may tubo kaso may conscience pako nung panahong yun. It was a gun store in Cubao who gave me big discounts
I think ubos na ang supply kasi I havent seen any lately
I thoght they were better than the newer model 10s kasi hindi pa siya heavy barrel. Though the guns looked like yung gamit dun sa Untouchables movie

horge
01-30-2006, 07:15
Thanks Django, Allegra.

Originally posted by batangueño
...you counted all the members...
Less the unintended exclusions and the occasional troll ;)
It was a slow Saturday afternoon....

;c

zorkd
01-30-2006, 23:35
1. if you are part of a legitimate gun club, you can own practically as many as you can afford to buy and keep registered. although the law on firearms states that one can only own 2 short arms and 2 long arms at most, this is not really enforced.

2. hmmmmmmmmm, somebody do the statistics on this one please.

4. beretta 92F DAO

5. armscor, RPA, Hahn, Aguila, Jethro

6. i would say the colt licensed elisco, or perhaps something from armscor or Floro

7. ahh kilala ko ito, ilang glock 19 slide na ang winarak nito hehehe. musta na pare?

8. hmmmm, yung copya nung tanfoglio na gawanang armscor, i forget the name

9. it is?

10. define modern, polygonal rifling is definitely not button rifled, conventional rifling of pistol barrels is also not button rifling.

horge
01-31-2006, 01:54
http://www.glocktalk.com/images/avatars/100.gif Better late than never, what?



;f

9MX
01-31-2006, 02:09
Originally posted by zorkd
if you are part of a legitimate gun club, you can own practically as many as you can afford to buy and keep registered. although the law on firearms states that one can only own 2 short arms and 2 long arms at most, this is not really enforced.



iirc, this is pd 1866 that was replaced by erap's law. which means we can own as many as we want. although last year, gundog wasn't allowed to have more guns unless he registers with another gunclub. pnp-fed regulations i guess

horge
01-31-2006, 02:38
Bosing Mannix :),
What new guns specifically was Darth Joji trying to license?

Any pistol over 9mm cal., you'll need to be a gun-club member (GCM).
GCM's can even go beyond their 15 handgun/6 long-gun limit, if the
extra, extra guns are registered and licensed via Amnesty.
Of course, this all depends on which frontliners at FED
one happens to deal with, and THEIR interpretation of the law.

P.D. No. 1866 is still around, amended in 1997 by R.A. No. 8294.
It is just a list of penalties for violating firearms laws.
It makes no mention of the types or numbers of firearm allowed for
private civilian possesion under license, not even indirectly as
violations for which it can prescribe punishments.

The implementing rules and regulations (IRR) formulated by PNP for
licensing firearms... now there's the real problem. The IRR's are
largely based on Presidential issuances that no longer exist.

Kiddo
01-31-2006, 06:19
Does anyone know how much does the government pay for other weapons used by the PNP/AFP? How much do they pay for M4/M16 rifles?

9MX
01-31-2006, 07:16
horge,

you're right, i was actually referring to e0194 w/c didn't repeall pd 1866.

last year when gundog acquired his race gun, iirc he had the following

2 Para LDAs
1 Shotgun
1 .22 rifle
1 jericho 9mm
1 baby armalite

but he told me then that for his new race gun to be licensed, fed was requiring him to present another gunclub membership.

sabi siguro ng fed, hindi naman topshooter itong si san jose, ba't andaming baril;Q

although top sr. production shooter siya, siya oldest eh ;f

Eye Cutter
01-31-2006, 08:30
3 buwan na lang super senior na si gundog! nyahahaha!

;e

horge
01-31-2006, 17:02
Technically, under the now mostly-baseless FED IRR's, each and
every firearm over the old caliber limits (handgun 9mm, rifle .22 LR)
requires proof of gun club membership for licensing. Every time
dapat. Just to make sure the licensee has a CURRENT membership.
Maybe that's all it was (unless they were requiring TWO separate
membership certifications ..... eeeeek)

I've only met the Emperor once, and he didn't look THAT old, hehe.
I was impressed with his steady shooting that day: three shots, each
from low ready, into the same freakin' hole at about 7m, IIRC.
It wasn't even his gun (the ParaOrd), it was an S&W from a fellow
shooter we'd just met that day sa PBD.

Hanga ako sa IPSC/IDPA/Bullseye/etc. shooters, the natural talent, yes
...but moreso their discipline and effort in honing their competitive
shooting skills.


horge

Benj
01-31-2006, 17:23
Wait, so what exactly is the law regarding civilian possession of high powered rifles (i.e. armalites, etc)?

9MX
01-31-2006, 17:53
Originally posted by Benj
Wait, so what exactly is the law regarding civilian possession of high powered rifles (i.e. armalites, etc)?

as per EO 194, as long as its not anti-tank, you can have one:cool:

however, little Gloria doesn't want you to take it out of your house. so you can have one but you can't use it, himas lang;g

horge
01-31-2006, 18:00
Hi Benj :)

As indicated in the Quiz answers earlier...

EO 164 (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1999_eo_164.html) series 1999 allows HP rifles for competition and training

'ika nga ni Mannix above,
EO 194 (http://ffforum.50webs.com/2000_eo_194.html) series 2000 allows virtually any firearm short of LMG's, LAW's,
recoilless rifles on up to howitzers. Furthermore it repeals the Marcos-era
issuances known as General Order No. 7 (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1972_go_7.html), General Order No. 7-A (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1972_go_7a.html),
General Order No. 7-B (http://ffforum.50webs.com/1972_go_7b.html), and General Order No. 7-C.

General Order 7-B is what used to restrict us to 1 handgun, 1 long gun.
It is dead. Gone. Repealed. Consigned to the hell it came from.
Long live EO's No. 164 and No. 194, baby.

I've spent a few days at UP Law library (Malcolm Hall) going through
compilations of Official Gazettes, and found no evidence that either
EO has been repealed or amended. They stand and should allow
me to go out and license an MP5, an M4, or an Armalite .50 BMG.

The problem is that those two EO's are dated 1999 and 2000.
PNP's restrictive licensing IRR (PNP SOP NR13 (http://ffforum.50webs.com/pnp_sop_nr13_1991.html)) basically predates
them (1991), and is based on the now-repealed General Orders I listed
above.

Selective FED (non)application of its own IRR seems to acknowledge
EO 164 in part (otherwise there would be no IPSC anything
over 9mm Parabellum), except as regards HP rifle licenses/permits.
FED seems to completely scorn EO 194's demoliton of restrictions
on type/caliber, save on a lucrative "case-to-case" basis.

EO 164 allows 15 handguns + 6 rifles to gun club members.
EO 194 says nothing about increasing the NUMBER of firearms allowed.
FED goes beyond what either EO permits and now allows the lucrative
registration of an unlimited number of firearms per person
under Amnesty.

FED seems inconsistent, alternately more liberal or more restrictive
than the law instructs, depending on what generates more revenue
and on what Malacañang whispers (rather than legally orders).


Hi Kiddo :),

Does anyone know how much does the government pay for other weapons used by the PNP/AFP?
How much do they pay for M4/M16 rifles?

New M16 rifles in PNP and AFP use are virtually all US EDA
transfers. The most recent delivery was 30,000-odd M16's and other
goodies. Cost = P 0.00.

Given that the patent on the M16 has expired (why else the plethora
of non-Colt semiauto AR-15's available in the US), this deluge of US
giveaways is likely the reason why Elisco Tool Mfg. (Elitool) seems
uninterested in once again essaying the local manufacture of M16's.
After all, if ".gov.ph" isn't going to be buying any, why bother?



horge

Eye Cutter
01-31-2006, 18:07
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/eyecutter/profjoji2.jpg

bad hair day for our super senior top dawg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/eyecutter/darkside.jpg

sans the hair dye and kolorete! hahaha! with his minions darth cutter and darthtangueno!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/eyecutter/kampon.jpg

we do admit that emperor gundog strives hard to excel, moreso than most shooters half his age.

hehehe! ;e

horge
01-31-2006, 22:13
http://i1.tinypic.com/n12luq.jpg

pong
01-31-2006, 22:54
so, can u get a ptt for a hp rifle?

from what im getting from the posts...
its somewhat a no but could be a yes...

horge
01-31-2006, 23:20
Hi, pong :)

Your concern is addressed in the First BoG Quiz thread,
question #7, IIRC. With the lucrative rare exception,
the answer is no.

batangueno
01-31-2006, 23:39
Originally posted by horge
http://i1.tinypic.com/n12luq.jpg
;z ;z Nakakatakot ;P ;f

Yung susunod na Dog City match dapat Star Wars theme. ;f

Allegra
01-31-2006, 23:54
Originally posted by batangueno
;z ;z Nakakatakot ;P ;f

Yung susunod na Dog City match dapat Star Wars theme. ;f


uy theme matches , yung parang ganito? :)

http://asia.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/doboltap/detail?.dir=6bcd&.dnm=2c2c.jpg&.src=ph

batangueno
01-31-2006, 23:58
Originally posted by Allegra
uy theme matches , yung parang ganito? :)

http://asia.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/doboltap/detail?.dir=6bcd&.dnm=2c2c.jpg&.src=ph
~1 bagay sa 'yo yung bow tie ;f

Benj
02-01-2006, 02:30
So from the different EOs and General Orders listed civilians are in fact allowed to legally own HP rifles (with papers). It seems that most LEOs are unaware of this, pag sinabing high powered rifles, bawal na kagad, pwede naman pala. And if that's the case what was up with the high powered rifles section in the recent gun show? Civlians weren't allowed entry.

Eye Cutter
02-01-2006, 03:46
siyet! si fafa A! kalaglag ty-pan! hahaha!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/aagustin11563/777f.jpg

Eye Cutter
02-01-2006, 04:05
hmmm... starwars theme shoot? not bad....

The Revenge of Bobo Fett! Bounty Hunter

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/eyecutter/gundogfett.jpg

antediluvianist
02-01-2006, 05:41
Hey, horge and you guys who have the details and legalities, I suppose seniors (60 and over like me) don't get the 20% discount on cartridges or guns or gunrange fees or holsters or anything like that? Maybe too much to ask.

Damn, all we get is 20% off medicines and restaurant bills and groceries, and pretty much unlimited free movies if we live in Makati, and a cake and P1,000 on our birthdays (so of course we vote for Binay), and .....yeah but I want 20% off ammo!

horge
02-01-2006, 05:59
Manong ante...
IIRC you get the senior citizens discount on licensing/permit fees.
Dunno about retail discounts. I doubt it, though.

antediluvianist
02-01-2006, 06:05
Ah..well then I will checkout licensing and registration fees. 20% is 20%. (Latest SSS payment to you when you turn 60 is about P12,000/month if you made max contributions throughout your working life. Well, you can't live on P12,000 but if your wife worked and is getting P12,000 too, well P24,000/month is something. Plus the seniors' 20% discounts on medicines (Big! over a year) and groceries and restaurants and all that.

Could be worse, guys. Still, save and invest when you're young. Can't count on SSS (by the time you young guys get to be 60..ah...will there still be money in the SSS?)

horge
02-01-2006, 06:08
High birthrate, so SSS will be around for awhile.
Social Security : a government-sanctioned pyramiding scheme.
;)

antediluvianist
02-01-2006, 07:12
Originally posted by horge
High birthrate, so SSS will be around for awhile.
Social Security : a government-sanctioned pyramiding scheme.
;)

Certainly we don;t have the problem that Germany and Italy and other low-birthrate countries have - there won't be enough workers to support the oldies; but the problem with our SSS us that IT MAKES LOUSY INVESTMENTS. I'm glad I'm getting money out of them NOW.

Allegra
02-01-2006, 08:03
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
siyet! si fafa A! kalaglag ty-pan! hahaha!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/aagustin11563/777f.jpg


Felix Bakat nyahahaha try running around UP in that get up :)
Nandun pa naman president ng parent-teacher association ng anak ko

SMBeerDealer
02-01-2006, 23:44
Originally posted by pong
so, can u get a ptt for a hp rifle?

from what im getting from the posts...
its somewhat a no but could be a yes...

The last time PTTs for HP rifles were issued were for the First Gentleman's cup around May last year in Guimaras. So sometimes it's a yes.